10 Ways to Prove Fibromyalgia is a Real & Serious Disease

Cort Johnson

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I really appreciate.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Oh, listen, I’m such a big fan of yours and your work. It’s you know, you’re you’re one of my go to sites that I go to to keep up to date on the newest research. And I really appreciate it. Share your site with my colleagues who ask about fibromyalgia, what they can learn. And, you know, which raises kind of a point about fibromyalgia. There’s still a lot of misconception and misunderstanding about fibromyalgia. And we pulled up one of your blogs, one of my favorites, and this was a couple of years ago, you wrote it and it’s entitled Ten Ways to Prove that fibromyalgia is a Real and Serious Disease. Why in the world are we still having to have this conversation in 2023 that the fibromyalgia is real? It just blows my mind.

Cort Johnson

Well, it blows my mind, too, because there’s been a lot of research done on fibromyalgia and they’ve identified many different, you know, things that have gone wrong in fibromyalgia. And it’s clearly a serious disorder. But still, there’s this lingering still we have this lingering kind of I don’t know what you’d say, disrespect or a lack of appreciation of just how serious fibromyalgia is. I was just in a Wall Street Journal comment section about long-covid. And somebody said somebody made a joke. They said, oh, the bad news is I got long-covid. The good news is I got rid of my fibromyalgia. Ha ha ha ha. You know, so there’s this, you know, and we see it. We see it in the funding for fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia still gets terrible funding, you know, from the National Institutes of Health. It’s the biggest medical research funder in the world by far. It’s extremely important to get funding for the National Institutes of Health. 

And they still provide they provide $17 Million a year for fibromyalgia. That might that might sound like a lot of money to some people, but it’s actually very, very low compared to what diseases like fibromyalgia get. You know, and with 10 million people with fibromyalgia and, you know, and and all the different systems affect it’s just pitiful, really. So fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia is still not getting the respect either in the funding arena or among doctors and really among the, you know, among the population at large. Yeah. 

It’s in this kind of rural suite of diseases that are characterized by lots of pain and fatigue, but they don’t kill people. They’re largely invisible. You can’t really readily see them. And they mainly attacks affect women. And it’s you know, it’s fibromyalgia. It’s called fatigue syndrome. It’s irritable bowel syndrome. It’s Gulf War illness. That’s a more male centered thing, but it’s similar there. And even migraine affects a lot of people, but it mainly affects women and it’s invisible and it doesn’t get that much funding. So yeah, so I, you know, I was I wrote that piece trying to really, you know, get across the fact that fibromyalgia is really a very serious condition. And I came up with ten ways to show that.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Well, so in the blog, you cite some of the medical journals and you cite that the years. But I think there’s one that was 2016 and then 2017. And in the scientific journal, it was, you know, fibromyalgia is basically I was asking, should we consider to wear an a legitimate illness? And, you know, I think, you know, and you go on to show that. Yeah, absolutely we should. So this was the medical news today asserted that that the number one fibromyalgia myth in the public arena was that it’s somehow not real. And then the Cleveland Clinic kind of picked up on that and talked about, we’re not sure that fibromyalgia is real. And we’re at the point right now where I think you quoted in that blog, 30 maybe I think it’s 50% of rheumatologists in Canada, don’t even acknowledge that fibromyalgia is real. So we’ve got a real uphill battle to get the word out and get people to understand about this thing.

Cort Johnson

Yes, yes, yes. They won’t. They will not even that survey indicated that they would not even see a fibromyalgia patient. That fibromyalgia patient came to them. They’re enthused to see them. Yeah. So and that in rheumatology is that that’s the specialty that fibromyalgia is centered in. You know, I mean, if anybody should see fibromyalgia patients, it should be rheumatologist. But that fibromyalgia, it’s, as you know very much is not an easy condition to treat. And as you know, the drugs that are available for it are, you know, pretty poor. 

And, you know, they don’t have access to the variety of treatments that you can provide. So I imagine it’s just, you know, it’s actually is a more difficult situation for them because, you know, you do have things that can help, but they don’t really have much that can help. So that doesn’t really excuse them. But it just demonstrates what a difficult situation it is. Well, for a patient and for provider.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

And I was reading this morning a book by Phil Stutz. I don’t know if you ever heard of he’s a psychiatrist out in California. He wrote a book called The Tumor was a highly recommended it’s really good book. But in there, he had this illness and no one really could explain it. And he kept going to a really close friend of his who was a physician and was very caring and concerned and and did test after test. And eventually he’d go went to his friend, who at one point was very caring. And he got the look, you know, the look that all the people who are watching this, they know the look, you know, that you get when you’re fibromyalgia patient, where they start to doubt the you know, the legitimacy of your complaints. But who would make this stuff up, right? I mean. Right.

Cort Johnson

Yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

I think you cite in here some number. I mean, 30% or 50% are either on disability or out of work with fibromyalgia. I mean, this is an illness that takes your career, your job, your marriage sometimes your family dynamics change. Your social network is destroyed because no one no one knows whether you’re going to be able to make that function or you don’t know if you’re going to you know, it’s going to be a good day or a bad day, you know, and it’s an illness that. Why would anybody want to make this stuff up?

Cort Johnson

I don’t know. I can’t I can’t imagine myself.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. They’ll say you’re with fibromyalgia and people you don’t know. I didn’t hear a story, but Courtney had caught was in USC or UCLA somewhere in California.

Cort Johnson

Yet I was at University of Santa Cruz, at University of California, at Syracuse, other known as otherwise known as Uncle Charlie Summer Camp. But yeah, it’s a great, it’s great experience until I got ill. Yeah, yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah, yeah. So he became ill with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia and this kind of led to your mission to really first learn everything you could and then to share. Thank goodness you do. Where do you think you know where we are going with fibromyalgia and the conventional medical world? Do you see any breakthroughs or you feel like that is kind of we’re we’re we’re going to stay that there’s going to be a significant population of physicians that are just going to ignore it. And, you know, and I think they come to the conclusion that the only treatment is to live with it and that maybe it is that is it’s going to go with that with the conventional world.

Cort Johnson

I don’t think so. I don’t think so. There are so in the conventional world the main pathways for relief they’ve been focusing on are have been the this neurontin Lyrica pathway, which is just been tapped out. There’s also this antidepressant and a depressants that’s also reduced pain pathway and that’s pretty much tapped out. But over the past and it’s been ten years since a drugs dose been approved for fibromyalgia. Yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

And then on to tell us something, right? I mean, that was not little interest. Yeah.

Cort Johnson

Yeah. And it’s also very the pain is just very complex. You know, it it you know, several systems of the body are involved in producing pain. It has mind body elements. It’s just a very complex phenomenon. Yeah. On the other hand, with all the pain problems in our society, it’s a very lucrative, potentially a very lucrative market. So people are still drug companies and researchers are still looking for better ways to produce, to reduce pain. And they’re looking at some really unusual areas now. So with regard to fibromyalgia now, I’m going to assert that fibromyalgia is not the it’s not necessarily the place that we should look to for a breakthrough. But there are some potential things that are underway. So there’s like, you know, ketamine is an anesthetic that has anti pain and has antidepressant properties. And that’s been studied in fibromyalgia, though, of course, there’s skip origins, antiviral protocol and, you know, pathogens have never really been associated with fibromyalgia before. 

But long, COVID is opening up some really interesting things about pathogens. Yeah. For instance, we know that people who didn’t even know they had the kind that had the coronavirus can later come down with long COVID. So you could have an infection and not know it and then and then potentially come down with fibromyalgia. There was a there’s an interesting Norwegian study that found people with giardia who had been exposed to giardia over ten years. And that study found that the risk of fibromyalgia went way up over the next ten years. So we know that pathogens can trigger fibromyalgia. 

Yes. So treatments, trenches, antiviral in this regards, in that respect, for instance, antiviral trial is kind of interesting. You know, it’s a little more interesting right now. So there’s the antiviral aspect there. Also, researchers are also combining supplements and drugs in interesting combinations. There’s a Memantine and NaCl and a seasonal cysteine drug trial underway in fibromyalgia. And Memantine is a it’s been used as a neuro inflammatory. There is a drug trial and chronic fatigue syndrome, a Gulf War illness that was quite successful and both were honest. It had a problem with placebo. 

With a high placebo result and chronic fatigue syndrome. But otherwise it looked good and that that that that trial combined a a stimulant, I think it was Adderall with mitochondrial enhancing drugs. So there’s that. So and then and then there are several drug trials underway that purport to help with both sleep and pain. You know, we know that sleep that poor sleep really ramps up pain, sensitivity and just simply getting poor sleep will ramp up your pain system. So these two drug trials are trying to hit that both. So there are a lot of you know, so there are some real opportunities in there for my fibromyalgia saying for pain relief. We’ll see how they turn out. But there’s some updates with some real breakthroughs there.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Certainly hope so. You know, I’m I’m always like to be an optimist, but I’m not very optimistic about finding the magic bullet or, you know, or combination of several, you know, polypharmacy. Because I think if you look at the surveys, most people have fibromyalgia. They don’t tolerate a lot of these medications. And that’s, you know, one of the challenges if you’re just treating the symptoms, you oftentimes create more symptoms. Having said that, I think we need to be funding research. We need to be looking at everything we can. And if someone needs to get relief for a period of time until we figure out this whole sell dangerous theory or whatever else we’re looking at, more so in functional medicine than probably our traditional medicine. You know, I certainly welcome that. 

But I’m not real optimistic that we’re going to find that ketamine and some of these other things long term will be the answer for far remaining, because I think the only way really to overcome it is to get healthy and I know that sounds so simplistic and I know, I know. But really, you know, for 22 years, it’s really the only thing that’s worked for my patients is really trying to figure out what are some of the underlying biochemical issues. Fix those, hopefully. Naturally, not always, but you know, normally naturally. But but it is I’m excited to hear that you seem to have a little optimism that we’re, you know, as we’re exploring some of these different underlying causes or triggers like the mitochondria dysfunction and some of these other things that’s opening up some other doors that whether that’s going to be prescription or maybe a combination of prescription and natural, I think that’s pretty exciting.

Cort Johnson

Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, it’s the average fibromyalgia patients going to get help. It’s probably going to come from it’s probably going to involve a drug some simply because, you know, the alternative health field really doesn’t have the resources to put out put on these big trials that will convince your average that we can convince your average doctor to give it a shot, that and and but there are also some trials there’s an interesting multi supplement trial that’s includes green tea extract and and and a bunch of other things, you know.

I mean, I’m sure these are things that you use. But but but the notable thing is that there are actually been exposed to clinical trials. And and, you know, if those are successful, then they they may feed down to your average, you know, your traditional medical doctor. So so so with regard to fibromyalgia, the problem is that the field is still quite small and it’s just not getting the funding. But there are some diseases that are that are similar to fibromyalgia that are getting quite a bit of funding. And that’s where that’s where I think the real breakthroughs will come from. Yeah. And they may take a little while to translate to the fibromyalgia field, but there’s a ton of money, there’s a ton of money being poured into Long-Covid, for instance.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

And I think that’s maybe a ray of hope right there, that from that research, which is going on pretty strong now, that we’re going to get some benefit from that in the fibro community and of course in the community.

Cort Johnson

Yes, yes, yes. Well, most of the most of the discussion around Long-Covid and another disease is around chronic fatigue syndrome. There’s been a lot you know, it’s well recognized that college fatigue syndrome is very similar to Long-Covid, but not so much about fibromyalgia. And I’m not I’m not sure why that is. You know, fibromyalgia is very similar to a chronic fatigue syndrome. If you were to reduce the pain a bit and add up to fatigue and post exertional malaise, you’d have chronic fatigue syndrome. Likewise, as Matthew showed, up to free up the pain and reduce the fatigue and post exertion. Laslett a little bit you’d have, you’d have fibromyalgia. Yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah.

Cort Johnson

So I really think that the results from Long-Covid, if they’re going to translate into fatigue syndrome, they’re also going to translate into fibromyalgia.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, there different sides to the same coin, you know, the distance you have fibro and oftentimes I have patients are diagnosed with both and then I have to really kind of zero in and try and figure out is that really accurate? And most of times it’s physicians that really don’t understand the differences between the two, so lump them together. I think there’s some differences which you kind of share, one being more pain oriented and one being more fatigue in. But I kind of look at them, they’re on a a clothesline and a one in true fibro is obviously the main complaint is diffuse achy, sometimes disabling pain that’s number one. 

And then from there, they definitely have the fatigue and poor sleep and all the other things that go irritable bowel and so many brain fog, so many other things. But on this end of the scale, chronic fatigue syndrome, they definitely have pain, but their main thing is that fatigue. But they may or may not have trouble with their sleep. In fact, a lot of times it’s not that they can’t fall asleep or stay asleep. Is that they want to sleep all the time fibro. They all have trouble with their sleep and just, you know, they can’t fall asleep. Can’t stay asleep. But you could be somewhere in the middle, right? I mean, but I think what is separate that’s true is that with in a country syndrome, it’s an immune system breakdown where they typically not always but typically are vulnerable to any kind of bugs. They always have some type of infection going on. Oftentimes they get swollen glands, they get random sore throats, things that we would associate with some type of infection. Whereas fibro, we don’t see that, although I’m coming around, I’ve been kind of down on precautions. Work is 45 minutes east of here, west of me. I’m sorry, but you know, maybe now maybe they’re, you know, a virus or some other bug that we’ve not been able to isolate. And either one of these is one that I think it could easily be more than one trigger.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

But maybe that’s a big piece of the puzzle. Do you feel like that a virus may be a part of fibromyalgia?

Cort Johnson

Oh, I think it’s entirely possible.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah.

Cort Johnson

That’s interesting. I mean, presents herpes. I think it’s herpes zoster, right. He looked at it in the gut, but that also it also infects the trigeminal nerve, which, you know, which is which can which is implicated in migraine and can cause all sorts of different problems. Yeah. And these, these herpes viruses, you know, they hang out in the dorsal it ganglia, which is next to the spinal cord. That’s the funnel through which all the sensory and pain signals go and they love the dorsal rig-i guy. So an infection there could, could, could conceivably affect all the pain signals going to the target, going to the body. So yeah, you know, it’s hard to it’s hard to get at these things, but I think I think the potential is there. 

And now with Long-Covid, you know, we’re seeing they’re see, you know, these big studies, this really massive complex, really, really well done studies. They’re consistently showing Epstein-Barr virus reactivation. Right. So I don’t really think we really know what’s going on with the viruses. I don’t know that it’s that they’re actually that they’re I don’t know if they’re causing it or not. But I I think the possibility is there and there’s going to be a lot of work done in the in the viral field, in the in the in learning how viruses actually affect the body and and hopefully and better antivirals, because we don’t really have good antivirals against the herpes virus, against viruses like Epstein-Barr virus. They were not they were not developed to treat Epstein-Barr virus. That’s what they’re using to treat Epstein-Barr virus. But they’re not they’re not particularly good. And so we really don’t, we don’t really have good antivirals. And, you know, there’s a huge effort in Long-Covid that’s trying to determine if viral persistence is the cause, if there are pieces of it, just pieces of the virus or the viruses themselves are very deep in the tissues. And what’s going on with that could they speak sparking an autoimmune reaction, which is another possibility for fibromyalgia?

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Well, I think that’s going to be my next question. Do you think there’s an autoimmune component to any of these diseases that you do research on? Do you think there’s a we don’t see it. You know, we keep looking. We keep looking. And, you know, but it’s like inflammation. I remember ten years ago, we used to say, well, I don’t think it has anything. And I admit this. I don’t think it has anything to do with inflammation. I never see it on blood work. But we know that inflammation and stress are the two drivers of everything. Now we know that.

Cort Johnson

So right.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Because we can’t see it in a lab test doesn’t mean it’s not going on.

Cort Johnson

Yes. Yes. I think the whole field of inflammation is undergoing a change as well. And then that researchers are slowly recognizing or finding that there are different measures of inflammation, that that that then we’ve had and that there are also there are also I just listened to a talk with Amy Prall and Timothy Heinrich at the University of California, Santa Cruz. And he said they’re going to start using novel anti-inflammatories and long COVID. So I think that that field is really is really due for a change. 

And I think what we’ll be seeing would be viewing inflammation in a different light. There is one interesting study case in point where they were able to if I get this right, the information that they identified in fibromyalgia, it was clustered around the nerves, small nerves. So there was small pockets of inflammation focused on the nerves. And that type of inflammation will not show up in blood tests. It’s not the systemic inflammation you see in rheumatoid arthritis or something. Yeah, it just won’t show up, but it’s there and it makes perfect sense. The idea that these, these, these, you know, these, these nerves are being sensitized, but they find how that was a cytokines and they found in a track that that was that was bringing the immune cells to the nerves. It was really very promising. Yeah. So that’s inflammation that’s kind of invisible inflammation. So yeah, we’ll see what happens with that. With regard to autoimmunity audio beauty, it’s been a kind of an open question in chronic fatigue syndrome for years and hasn’t really been looked at much with regard to fibromyalgia, although the possibility that some autoimmune reaction is attacking the nerves or attacking the mitochondria and you know, poor my mitochondrial output can be associated has been associated with increased pain or is attacking the autonomic nervous system. 

Certainly, that’s an active area of study and cry fatigue syndrome. And now we have long-covid, which is, you know, several studies, several really nice studies have shown really abundant levels of autoantibodies that are present. And it’s interesting they’re showing like this wide range of autoantibodies that are being evoked by the virus. So autoimmunity is really is you know, that’s a big area of research in Long-Covid. And if, you know, if that shows up in Long-Covid, then it may translate to chronic fatigue syndrome, then it may translate to fibromyalgia. And in fact and in fact, they’re actually studying monoclonal antibodies in Long-Covid. Now, those are really powerful drugs that they can have severe side effects, but they are but they are effective. 

They can be effective in rheumatoid arthritis. You know, people used to, you know, have not really nothing except steroids to treat rheumatoid arthritis. And, you know, there’s an immune doctor in Miami that’s you clients who has been studying her patients for years. And she’s been raring to go with monoclonal antibody tests for years. But, you know, she can’t get them she can’t get anybody to fund them or get them passed, you know, to get anybody to fund them. But now they’re being studied and long-covid and in some big trials so too so and that’s the that’s a really interesting about long-covid is that we’ve got some really we got some big well-done clinical trials that are underway, quite a few of them. And we just we just don’t really we don’t tend to have that in chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, you know. So there’s just a lot of possibilities being explored. And that’s what I’m most interested in and hopeful for that something well, some things will pop in those and that disease and it’ll get translated to, you know, fibromyalgia and sometimes. Yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

But could it be I mean, it’s kind of my feeling is it could it be with central sensitization syndrome with a nervous system is overreact and symptoms trigger that could it be more than one trigger? I mean, could it be a virus for one person? Could it be autoimmunity reaction for another? I mean, with the excess of substance p and glutamate that drive this whole thing and make it make any kind of sensation, tactile sensation, register as pain where the pain centers are overactive. Maybe it’s more than one thing, you know, maybe maybe we’re going to find that there’s these different triggers. And then it comes down to, okay, how do we saw that piece of the puzzle? How do we solve the central sensitization and get that? So turn it around.

Cort Johnson

Yes and this and it’s really interesting protein rich Henrich interview they said even in Long-Covid they believe it’s going to be there are going to be different forms of long-covid. Now there’s you know that there’s long-covid that causes lung problems. There’s long-covid, you know, long-covid lung problems. There’s other things and then there’s the mixed portion of long-covid. And then I think even within that portion, there’s going to be different forms of it that some people it may be viral, viral persistence, some people it may be autoimmune, some people there may be a lot of blood vessel issues. 

Of course, blood vessel issues have shown up in fibromyalgia as well. And that’s another that’s another new area, you know, of, you know, blood, anticoagulants, antiplatelet, you know, supplements or drugs. That’s just another new treatment possibility that we hadn’t really considered in prior fatigue syndrome. There had been some studies a decade or so ago, and then they faded. And I’ve never seen I’ve never seen studies regarding coagulate. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen studies regarding coagulation in fibromyalgia. But there are certainly numerous studies that’s showing blood vessel problems and fibromyalgia. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s another new treat. We’ll see how it turns out. Yeah. You know, but, you know, at least it’s been explored and you know and we’ll see.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. And again, I think it’s the silver lining and long COVID that we’re starting to witness this. But now we’ve got a big pool of money coming in to see if we figure this out. I think, you know, that’s going to be and I see it with my patients. I see patients that I hadn’t seen caught in two or three years that were doing great, had gone into remission with their fibro. I get an email from a doctor. Murphy I’ve got I had covered or even that they didn’t have COVID, I didn’t have symptoms, I didn’t know they had it. 

And then now they’ve developed, they’ve been diagnosed with long, long COVID and they’re having all of the fatigue and the pain. And as soon as things come back or, as you mention, is triggered their autoimmune disease, which was kind of in the background, you ask two patients with lupus who were doing great for three or four years and see them in a while. They had fibro and lupus. But the long COVID triggered the lupus, which I think for one of them contributed to their developing kidney disease kids. They tell her when I anything we can before we eventually go on dialysis. But fortunately, there are you know, there were some things that functional medicine we could do and we turned that around and she’s got a clean bill of health. But this long COVID, I think, again, saying this is silver lining. I think it’s a terrible thing. But I think for the fibromyalgia community and the Cromarty community, I think it’s really going to offer some therapies and things that are come out of that. They’re going to be really beneficial.

Cort Johnson

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, there’s the NIH, you probably know of the NIH recovery initiative.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah.

Cort Johnson

Yeah. I don’t know if I mentioned fact. So the NIH is spending $300 million a year on long COVID. And I.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Didn’t. You didn’t. But yeah, it’s a good substantial number, thank goodness. Yeah.

Cort Johnson

No. And these are these, you know, they’ve, they’ve started one they’re taking a while to get going, has to be said. But you know they started up they’ve started a of the trial to see if that can get at the virus but you know we’re going to see some really really nicely funded very rigorously put together which is a problem. And chronic fatigue syndrome is a problem in all diseases, really. You know, the fact that clinical trials are often not well put together and at the end of the day, when they’re done, whether they’re positive or not, people some people say, well, I don’t know what that proves. 

But, you know, at least we know these studies are going to be this study is going to be well done. And if they’re successful and they’re good, there should be quite a few of them. If they’re successful, they will follow up on them and they’ll replicate them. And we should have some really solid, solid evidence about, you know, what’s helping with long COVID or what’s not helping as well. Yeah. So there’s a lot of interest in the gut now, you know, and you know, the idea that the gut’s effect on the body, the, the many different effects it can have is just staggering, really.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

It is. And so my whole gut brain connection.

Cort Johnson

Yes, yes.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

There’s actually microbes, this communication that if that is alter can create or contribute to depression. I mean, who would ever stop that, you know, would be communicating to the cells in your brain and back, you know, back and forth. It is really, really interesting, really. And functional medicine was kind of based on the whole thing of get your gut right, everything else will follow. And I’ve kind of I’m guilty, I admit, for a number of years, kind of getting jaded to that, because every time you interview somebody, a functional medicine, it’s like you got this and think you got that. But you know, it is come full circle. Now we see that the research is showing what the pioneers of functional medicine have been saying for the past 15 years.

Cort Johnson

They have been they gone down the gut really early now. And studies showing that if you have inflammation in the gut, this can be associated with inflammation in the brain. And that inflammation in the brain could even be influencing inflammation in the gut. And then you have the vagus nerve that’s transmitting all these different symptoms, all these different signals. And we know the vagus nerve is not doing well in fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome or long-covid. We know that, you know, it controls the sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight system, and that’s jacked up. And in all these diseases. And it’s fairly it should be it should be inhibiting that system and allowing our bodies to rest and digest. And, you know, God knows how much rest and digesting we’re getting. 

But so and, you know, and that opens up the possibility of not only really interesting gut interventions, but also things like vagus nerve stimulation, which in its current form I feel based vagus nerve stimulation in its current form is really crude compared to what it’s going to be and hopefully, you know, say five or ten years, there’s a lot of research going into that. There’s an NIH initiative called the SPARK Initiative, which is mapping out these different pathways. It’s a very complex nerve. And where to hit it and how hard to hit it and things like that. And I was very encouraged by Lauren’s style. She’s the founder of Decided I’ll be International. And so, of course, there’s a lot of decided phobia and fibromyalgia and practice and there’s a lot of decided idea in Long-Covid. Yeah. And she’s very excited about the potential for vagus nerve stimulation then. And you know, her organization is funding trials and there’s trials going on and long-covid as well. So this is another area that’s potentially very safe and potentially effective. I think it’s just going to get better over time.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

I remember interviewing Eva Ditko, who’s kind of an expert on Vagus nerve, and I remember this probably four years ago. I made my first fibro summit and I remember listening to her and she was in a van and she was in Poland and traveling. You’re traveling across the United States and a little I’m envious and amazing. You can turn out this incredible work that you turn out in your you know, you’re living in a van. But I remember interviewing her and she’s sharing all this stuff about vagus nerve and me thinking, you know, I learned so much about the cranial nerves, everything. And medical school and chiropractic school. 

But what you’re sharing and just thinking as you share, I think what you’re sharing is revolutionary and it’s not well-known. It’s not in enough books. It’s not being talked about. Now, four or five years later, we’re hearing much more about it. And there’s exercises you can do. There’s machines out for STEM and some of these others that are targeting the Vegas that are. So we’re getting there. But I would agree with you, it’s very crude right where we’re at now compared to where we’re going. I think it’s going to be a it could be, I think a game changer for a lot of people is fibro.

Cort Johnson

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the potential is really there, you know, and I think of things like, I don’t know if you tried fecal matter transplants, but you know.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

I had a couple of patients overseas. I had two patients in Australia and for whatever reason that was an interest they had and I gave my blessing and I didn’t see any positive results, unfortunately. But that’s not saying that it can’t be helpful. I mean, there’s quite a bit of research for other conditions. I’ve seen it be helpful.

Cort Johnson

Right, right. I know some people. It’s been quite helpful. Yeah. And I think that’s what we expect kind of expected this doctor with this population that some things are going to be helpful for. Some people are not going to be helpful for others. Right. And who knows whether they’ll turn out. But the good news is that they’re actually they’re also actually being studied in Long-Covid. And there’s also a chronic fatigue syndrome, fake fecal matter transplant study going on. You know, that really the important thing is that they’re actually being studied. And I will tell. And if they do work boy without boy, wouldn’t that be a great, you know, at least partial solution? I don’t think anything is going to be. I don’t think anything is going to be the solution.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Be multi product would be several. Yeah, probably start with that.

Cort Johnson

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, HIV wasn’t cured by one drug. It took three drugs to, to, to stop HIV. So now, unfortunately, the FDA, you know, likes to test one drug at a time. So that really gets in the way. It’s the way it’s things that, you know, you know, alternative medicine doing their trials and all that. Yeah. But hopefully that will change over time because, you know, I don’t think Long-Covid is going to be solved. You’re not going to get a magic bullet. I don’t think any of these diseases, you’re going to get a magic bullet now. But I do want to point out that that a vendor that the National Institute of National Neurological Disease and Stroke is the leader of their effort at a big NIH intramural hospital. 

He believes that if you solve one of these diseases, you’re going to solve all of them. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And he’s you know, he’s he’s a he’s not a he’s not a woo woo researcher. He’s just embedded in this very conservative medical tradition. You know, he’s right in the middle of the night. Yeah. Yeah. He’s been studying, you know, chronic fatigue syndrome. I mean, he’s all on board and he really thinks, you know, crafty syndrome, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, chemical sensitivities, all these things you solve one, you will solve you. You’ll be able to solve them all, which is very encouraging, considering how much money is going into long co-pay. Yeah.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

So yeah, report. This has been fantastic as usual. And again I’m going to mention Health Rising Dawn Ward is the blog. That’s the website you go to. I want to encourage everybody to check out Cortes work and support his work on that. We have had several people in my circle that are now starting to talk more about Cortes work. As I’m starting to share in my emails and so my talks that I’m giving, please check out his site and check out his blogs and support his efforts. So that’s right though. Health Rising dot org is where they would go to learn more about you and your work, right?

Cort Johnson

Yes. Yes. And if you want, if you’re having trouble getting people to understand that, fibromyalgia is a serious a real and serious condition. You can go to ten ways to prove that fibromyalgia is a real and serious disease.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

That’s the blog we mentioned earlier. And I wanted.

Cort Johnson

To ask.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

That. Yeah, print that off. And you do a really wonderful job of the step by step outlining that this is very much a real condition with the research and the clinical material behind it. I mean, it’s there, it’s legit.

Cort Johnson

Yeah. That blog was very easy to write, by the way. That blog was very easy to write. It’s very easy to show that fibromyalgia is indeed a very, very real and impactful and impactful, you know, not just with regard to symptoms, but the regard to economic, with regard to finding a good doctor, with regard to finding a doctor who is, you know, is, if anything, at least just not dismissive and so it’s all there, including, you know, patient. We did this wild survey and asked people to explain what their pain was like.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Oh, it broke my heart to read some of those comments.

Cort Johnson

Oh, it’s just, you know, like my glass being shoved into my blood vessels and, you know, and just just just. Just incredible. Just incredible.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. Well, it’s a wonderful blog. It’s sad that you had to write it. I wrote one review several years ago. You may have a stupid doctor if and it’s all about it’s all about just the challenge of getting first you get to you know, you have all these symptoms get passed from one doctor to the next. It may take years and multiple doctors, you finally get, you know, the rubber stamp on your forehead. This is fibro and you think, Oh, I’ve arrived. I’m not lazy, crazy or depressed, I’ve got it. And then they tell you, Well, you got fibromyalgia, you know, here’s a couple, here’s a couple of pills and come back. See me in six months are really just going to have to learn to live with it. It’s really the beginning of the journey. You know, it’s not. But you hear so many times they’ll say, well, you know, with fibromyalgia, you just need to exercise more. I mean, you know, a lot of my patients can get out of bed or you need to lose weight. And, you know, not everybody sort of needs to, but most people with that, with metabolism so shot, they can’t lose weight no matter what they eat or donate or the rest, you know, or you just need to go on vacation or it’s mind boggling that we could even mention that. And I wrote, as I said a few years ago, but that’s still true today. There are still patients are still hearing this garbage when they go to ask to plead for help, they’re still hearing this garbage.

Cort Johnson

It’s partially the result of the research emphasis and fibromyalgia. It’s astounding how much how many exercise studies have been done in fibromyalgia. I mean, it’s like from aerobic to strength training to Taichi to just all these different combination, millions of dollars have been poured. It’s like they latched on to one thing that showed that exercise can have, you know, a moderate effect on some people with fibromyalgia, moderate, positive effect. And they just went crazy with it.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. Yeah, that’s we talked about exercise or cholesterol. So I’m thinking as you’re describing this, we start with all this money and it’s all you know, when I get these lab tests, I, you know, patients can show me recent lab work. And what if I get a CBC and cholesterol level.

Cort Johnson

Right? Right.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

That’s what they’re interested in. Right. So the same thing, right? Yeah.

Cort Johnson

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re stuck. They’re stuck in this kind of narrow academic niche. Yeah, yeah. No, that relies entirely on the published research. And they won’t they won’t go elsewhere either. Well, speaking of cholesterol, it’s interesting there and I don’t know about statins. I’ve heard that. I think I heard that they could be really problematic. But that’s another that’s actually another area. Here’s a huge long-covid statin study going underway because statins can I think it’s inflammation they’re anti-inflammatory.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Opponents are inflammatory really what we the thinking really is that behind the scenes it’s not so much lowering the cholesterol. It’s lowering the inflammation. I wrote an article. It’s not what was a it’s not the inflammation statement. Clinton’s thing. It’s not there.

Cort Johnson

But that’s the economy.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Yeah. And it’s all about it’s not really to do with the cholesterol, it’s inflammation, which, you know, now we’re learning that inflammation is part of long-covid and fibro and Amy and Alzheimer’s and so many things that we didn’t realize it. It’s inflammation that’s really driving things. So yeah. Yeah.

Cort Johnson

Yes. And you know what I understand they also enhanced Butyrate production in the gut. Yeah. And you know, they low butyrate and pharmacologic of them long COVID. And that opens the door to the old leaky gut syndrome that I’d you know, so I, you know, it’s just it’s just really interesting all the different all these different avenues that are being explored that I never I certainly never I was. Yeah, there’s a drug called toxic fetal filing, which it’s an old I don’t know, I never heard of it before. It’s an old drug. It’s reportedly safe, it’s inexpensive, and it’s able to be used to treat muscle pain and it’s used to increase blood flows to the muscles. 

And, you know, I know. And I thought, my God, why have it why hasn’t this popped up before? Muscle pain, blood flow to the muscles? You know, those are both potentially problems and Cox syndrome and long COVID. Yeah and so now Canada starting this long COVID and Toxie and Toxie filed studies. So it’s really it’s just I think it’s just a very there’s just lots of possibilities, more possibilities that were present couple of years ago. Yes.

Rodger Murphree, DC, CNS

Well, as you can see, mine is very, very much on a mission. And he’s got his pulse on so much research that’s out there. So I would encourage everybody to check out health arising dot org and check out quartz work. I would encourage you to if you feel comfortable and you know resonates with you make a donation help with this is his demanding and very much needed work. So thanks so much for being on here today as always. It’s really fun to hang out. Talk to you.

Cort Johnson

Likewise. Likewise. Yes. Thanks again for inviting me once again. Yeah.