Behind the Scenes Look at the DNA results of Andy Walshe

Andy Walshe

Hey Harris. Thank you and thanks for the DNA company for hosting us. Yeah, my name’s Andy Walshe. Short story, a career in human performance that started many years ago in Australia and focused primarily obviously on the athletic space. And then over the years, moved to the US, started to develop a human performance programs that explored potential in everybody, across from studying with athletes, but moving to musicians and artists and business leaders and military groups, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, we’ve really just been watching and listening over these 30 years of my career to people who’ve done extraordinary things and trying to understand how they get there and what they’ve done to get there and learn from them and share that. let’s share that information.

Harris Khan

Fantastic. So, Andy, we met a number of years ago. Talk to us about what attracted you to DNA testing time, if you were familiar with it before and kind of what really drew you or attracted you to what it is that we were doing at the time that made it feel like, you know what, this is something that we could use.

Andy Walshe

Yeah. So in my, the fortunate part of my career is I got in sort of as across the community, I guess you would say, I would get sent a lot of new products, new technologies, new systems about sort of enhancing human performance. Obviously I think late 90s, early 2000s DNA started to poke its head into the human performance space, if you like. But the early days, like with any new technology or new philosophy, it sort of was fairly heavily, I would say embedded, it wasn’t proved. The proof points weren’t there. So what we were looking for all over the years was a place or an organization that would strip away the, let’s call it the exaggeration from the claims, and get down to what they really could see and understand and interpret from the DNA profiling. And it took a long time.

It finally went through the connection with Dr. Mansor and yourself and the DNA company. We were attracted to the idea that you were very heavily vetted in the scientific support and literature that would sort of back up the claims. You weren’t making false sort of claims around this DNA sequence means you should need broccoli and things like that really crazy outlandish claims at the time. And we really found the rigor in the science plus the understanding of the mechanistic pathways that underlay the science and also led to some interpretation that could then be tested embedded. So that partnership was really appealing as well. So it’s not like this means this, well, this means this. It was, hey, we have this profile, we have this particular sequence. And we think in a mechanistic way, it may point to this, and we’re in a position then to check that against all the other data we’ve collected on that individual. And through that cross check and cross sort of validation we’re able to sort of see where your profiling really, really did add value to the improvement of this talent we were working with.

Harris Khan

Amazing. And of course, during this process, you got a chance to test yourself, tell us a little bit about what you learned, maybe things that kind of confirmed your suspicions or things that were surprised you, what did you learn from the actual testing yourself?

Andy Walshe

Well, I think you guys told me I had the best DNA that was ever measured or something like that.

Harris Khan

That would make a lot of-

Andy Walshe

Actually far from the truth, far from the truth. I mean, there was so many great insights. Again, it’s only a small part of the sequencing that you share because that’s the part that’s ratified and validated to the level of acceptance. But one of the interesting ones for me was, can’t remember the particular splice, but it was the idea that I obviously have a sequence that allows me to, that when I experience very exciting or challenging things, I get a great kick from an dopamine response in the brain. But at the same time I had the other part of that sequence that meant that I flush it out and clean it very quickly. In medical terms, that sort of pointed to the fact that when you did the assessment, Dr. Mansor didn’t know my background and he was not surprised to say the least at that point in time, I was a High Performance Director for Red Bull, which obviously was taking the craziest and most extraordinary athletes in the world, pushing the limits and all these amazing from big mountains to big surf. 

And I was moving quickly through that space. So it was like, I enjoyed it. We got involved with surf and then obviously, potentially I wouldn’t say bored, but my brain was switching to now let’s go a big mountain skiing, let’s go to motor sports, let’s go to skateboarding, yeah, let’s go to formula, yeah, those sorts of things. So what was fascinating to me was just the ability, all jokes aside, to take that very specific gene, look at its mechanistic pathways with respect to in this way, behavioral sort of frameworks. And for me being able to say, yeah, almost like that does explain a lot of the way I operate. It does give me some more reference with respect to how I could improve my operations in that space. And I think really what’s powerful for us is we focus heavily on sort of the first phase of human performance of deep understanding of who you are. So it’s just another great piece of that puzzle that we were able to potentially, for me add in to my understanding, which allows me then to develop and grow and learn.

Harris Khan

Yeah, and it’s funny, you know, you are the prototypical, like it was so funny because like you said, we didn’t know who you were when we did your test. If I had to describe a person who only is happy when they’re jumping out of a plane, it would be you, right? Because that’s literally you derive your thrills from the extreme. And here you are Director of High Performance at Red Bull, which is all about extreme sports. Like you’re just not happy unless the wave is 60 feet tall. Like it’s gotta be the biggest and the baddest for you to bind. And it’s an interesting combination because what’s happening literally in your brain is the dopamine, which was in charge of your pleasure, which was in charge of making you feel happy, it’s being cleared out super fast by this little enzyme called calm, that was driven by a gene. 

So you got a really fast calm clearing your dopamine. And on top of that, you don’t have enough of the receptor. So literally in order for you to experience pleasure, like we gotta push you off a cliff and you don’t have to know it, where you’d be like, oh yeah, that was fun, right? And it’s really interesting because you are the type of person that, unless you have those challenges, those incredible lofty heights to achieve, you don’t feel fulfilled, right? We always talk about Rolling Stones. I Can’t Get No Satisfaction. For Andy, there’s no satisfaction unless he’s literally putting himself at risk at life and death kind of thing, because that’s where you’re thriving. So those serial entrepreneurs guys like you, you’re pushing yourself to the limit. So it was really, really interesting because we told you that and you’re like, by the way, I don’t know if you know what I do, I’m the Director of High Performance at Red Bull and we’re like mind blown. So that’s where you were thriving, so.

Andy Walshe

Yeah, I think that’s the fun part. It’s like, I’ve been around this game long enough. There’s never an answer. There’s never a simple yes or no. It’s never binary, but there’s information you can collect and learn about yourself. And sometimes it supports what you understand, sometimes it challenges what you understand. In this particular case I was not the person going out into the big waves of the big surf anymore, but I was definitely in there and working with those people who were doing that. So you sort of see you get that connection. That’s where you feel most alive, that idea of helping people like we subsequently have like taking a group of executives who we took recently through a program with you. Where we obviously looking to understand how does this C-suite group operate at the highest level? What can we learn about each other? And I typically say to everybody, no matter what assessment we do, whether it’s a biological assessment, blood profile or something, or it’s a DNA, or it’s a physical assessment or cognitive test, we’re probably 75 to 80% in the ballpark with a really good test. 

There’s always that main part you’ll agree with. And there should be a couple of things that you find challenging cause it’s there in DNA, the epigenetic influence on your DNA profile . So I think in that space, when you’re sitting down with a group of executives and they’re trying to really think about how they bring their performance for the company to that higher level, giving them that information allowed us to say, well, you know, from a physical, just general health perspective, check these things out and that stuff’s really strongly validated. And then you get into as a behavioral position like working with Andy, make sure you keep him energized and excited because if you don’t, he’s gonna get bored and, you know, start to create problems. 

So that idea of recognizing who’s in your team and what they’re both doing from a cognitive, biological, behavioral, you know, level. It really allows that team to then flourish. And I think that’s the idea of, and whether they agree or disagree, the conversation about the, the point is really important because it brings better understanding of each other. Deepens communication and through that deepens trust. And that’s where you start to build that. So it’s been, you know, on many levels personally, and also as we operate with it, something that’s been really useful for us in our, and as we work.

Harris Khan

So I remember actually, you know, when we were connecting together and working with these group executives, a while back. One of the interesting found, you know, findings that you had done was about building real strength. And you actually had shown the data that, you know, people think that you gotta be pumping, you know, tons of muscle or tons of weights, tons of times. And you were actually able to show that if you’re intelligent about how you approach strength training, you can have a lot more output for a lot less input. Can you expand a little bit on some of those findings?

Andy Walshe

Yeah, of course. I think what we’ve learned over the years is again, if you’re working with the best strength trainers and athletes in the world. So, you know, Olympic weightlifting program. You learn about these, it’s like anything you learn about the efficiencies. So just as a general level, they’ve been doing it all their life for a long, long time, and that’s all they focus on. And so you, they’ve figured out, alright, we’re gonna train 10, 20 hours a week in this space, we’re gonna do things this way. And they’re still learning by no means answers. And I think, you know, that gets you so far experience and practice and just the historical research that’s been done on. If I’d lift this weight, heavy weight five times and this lighter weight, 50 times, what’s the difference? And you do, you learn the profile has an impact. 

What’s also now where the industry’s heading and that elite performance space, is not only recognizing the different stimuluses have an impact on, in a different way on you, but recognizing that as an individual, your body has a unique response to the stimulus. So yes, you may lift one big rock five times that’s super heavy or a lighter rock 50 times that’s lighter. It has an impact. There’s a physical stimulus in the load. But as an individual, you and I, if we lift, I lift the big rock five times and it’s really heavy, and you lift the same big rock five, you are gonna have a different response than I will to that same stimulus. So I think we’re in the position now with the work, you know, and the genetic basis of some of this work that’s, we’re starting to understand it. That precision performance idea, that you as an individual are probably gonna respond in a certain way to this type of training differently. 

So not only do we now have the picture of what the stimulus say, what the input to the talent is. We also looking at your specific opportunity to respond to that stimulus. And that’s where we get into this idea that, it’s not one size fits all, which everybody recognizes, just really hard to implement. Like, you know, in the old days where even today it takes a team of 8, 10, 12 people or one really high performing person to get all the information and recognize. That’s just not feasible in the real world. So, you get this sort of genetic profile done on that individual. Kind of fast tracks that you don’t need 10, you know, you can start to interpret. And I think one of the, another work you’ve been doing is deeply trying to push at the DNA company, which is helping us at times, simplifying that understanding and making it real so that people who are not geneticists-

Harris Khan

Yeah.

Andy Walshe

…will have a background, can really look at the information and go, wow. I, again, may not agree with everything, that’s absolutely fine. It should be that way. But when they do recognize what their base level is, and they can look at what they’re doing, they can then be in a better position to make adjustments to their own program. Which gets you know, hopefully puts people like me out of a job.

Harris Khan

Well, hopefully not cause the work you’re doing is fantastic. And just to expand sort of, you know, on that difference in modalities, in terms of strength training, you know, people always say, you know, is it more cardio for you? Is it more weight lifting for you? What’s that kind of combination. And to your point, it’s down to the person, not the exercise itself. The exercise itself is always beneficial, but who is it more beneficial for? So one of the things we did here at the DNA company, we looked at genetics, we said, well, one of the big factors in influencing sort of whether or not you should have a higher cardiovascular exercise output in your specific regimen was, well, how well do you respond to the eventual inflammation and production free radicals caused by excess cardiovascular activity? 

And of course, we found a very strong correlation between people who carried, you know, a version of their 9p21 which influences endothelial inflammation. That’s the inside of your blood vessels. While the people were more likely to become inflamed during the presence of toxins, toxins like free radicals. They were going to always be better off having a more weight bearing, lower intensity cardiovascular exercise model versus like, I need to go and do a marathon run to lose weight, or I need to need to really push myself to limit some people just aren’t designed to push their heart to that limit. They have to achieve their goals in another way. So, you know, and to your point, we have worked with some of these elite athletes to be like, hey, you’re an elite athlete. You’re performing at the highest level, but guess what? Some of your exercises are hampering your growth. 

Meaning you are not achieving your full potential because what you think is good for you that you’ve heard and all your trainers are telling you that they’ve applied to every people actually doesn’t end up working for you. So if you just do this one tweak and that’s the magic, right? It’s the, we’re not telling people to jump through a fire or a fire, or like a hoop made a fire to heal themselves. We’re like, just literally make this one tweak and you see massive gains. At the elite level, as you know, that one change is what separates the great from the good. So, I mean, it’s just, it’s great to see that we can see that kind of, sort of validation, that efficacy, showing up in these people. 

One last thing I wanted you to talk about. I remember when we were having this conversation, you made a really important point. You said, look at the elite level, like when you’ve got Olympians and you’ve got all these like 10 Olympians about to do the a hundred meter dash, right? So you gotta Usain bolt and all these guys. What separates the gold medalist winner from everyone else? And the reality is, it’s not really about their physical performance. That’s the cream of the crop. Those are the greatest athletes on the planet. So what, in your, in your expertise, in your experience separates the gold winner from everyone else?

Andy Walshe

Yeah, it’s the question I think that we are trying to all in our community understand. But you know the running joke in our community is, you know, how do you determine who’s the fastest is you have ’em line up and race, and the winners the fastest. So it’s when you get to that level, the approach is fundamentally sort of accepted is that there’s this threshold, you know. You have to be obviously a certain framework, a certain physical build, a certain type of musculature, a certain sort of amount of training, a sort of history of running fast for many, many years. And you know, that can lay into the genetics and who your parents were and the the whole package. What’s really extraordinary at that level though, is that there’s, it’s aside from the stopwatch shame, you know, Mr. Bolt’s the fastest down the track.

Harris Khan

Yeah.

Andy Walshe

It’s really hard to delineate one thing out and say, ah, that’s why he wins every time. And it’s really hard to even take it a step further and say, this young kid has this particular thing that means they will win in five years every time. It’s just, it’s at sort of at that level, that’s winning is the, is the test. So the check is, but there’s this threshold of characteristics that you have to have. And it’s trying to understand those thresholds and then understand where training should be focused. What sort of training and good coaches do this intuitively. What we’re getting again, the promise of the work that you’re obviously researching deeply is the notion that we can get on top of the intuition and the art. The size can now start to say potentially there’s other ways of training or improving this individual. And potentially even finding other people who could have run as fast as Usain. Who for the right, for all the, you know, obvious reasons missed that window, or didn’t have the right training at the right time. And just you know, went off to do other things. Not to say, you know, everyone wants to win a 100.

Harris Khan

Yeah.

Andy Walshe

But that’s the idea.

Harris Khan

And you, had specifically said hey look, the guy who’s winning, he’s performing, what he’s doing for the last four years, but he’s doing it in uncertain environment cause of his, it’s that mentality. It’s the winning mentality it was that, you know, mom’s calling them before their race. It’s that, it’s the, you know, it’s the Kobe Bryan kind of like win at all costs, you know? And that was genetically influenced. Some people are like oh, my mom can’t get into the stadium to watch me. And that split second of hesitation. That’s what, cause it comes down to split seconds. Whereas-

Andy Walshe

Yeah, yeah.

Harris Khan

…Usain Bolt saying both like win at all costs. Like I don’t care what’s happening. I’m gonna do exactly- I’m a machine and I’m gonna run, no matter what’s happening. The world can be burned and I’m running, right? So, I remember you had been like hey, people are ignoring the cognitive part of why like athletes are normal people at the end of the day and they’re influenced by pain and all these emotions. And so you’ve done a lot of work in kind of identifying that aspect of cognition as it relates to performance.

Andy Walshe

Yeah, yeah. Well we’ve spent a ton of time trying to replicate high stakes, high risk, high pressure environments, to enable people to practice under those conditions. And again, that allows you to develop those skills that when you do get to, you know, the hundred meter final at the Olympics, which is a big deal, there’s a few people watching you on TV. You know, it’s, there’s a lot of pressure. And those people who have managed to learn to adapt and navigate that space physically and cognitively, but definitely cognitively at that point. Have figured out, you know, their way, their way to be very clear of optimizing themselves under those conditions. You may remember, you know, all those saying he’s always up there kind of joking. 

And he’s always fist bumping the kids who are supporting the lane, you know, the judges, et cetera. And there’s a great video. And so he’s super relaxed and, you know, it’s a little bit of a nature nurture thing. Did he learn how to do that because he was so fast and he learned how to relax? Did he have to manage himself better to learn how to run fast? And it’s always, yeah, we’re not at the point yet to be able to answer that, but it’s so important. And then obviously when he executes and launches down the pitch, his level of confidence becomes a weapon against everybody else. Cause fundamentally in those big, big events, he is trying to basically his competitors are competing for second place.

Harris Khan

That’s awesome, that’s awesome. And, the reality is, you know, even with the genetics, they’re not a death sentence. They’re simply a guidance, there’s their landscape. And you can train yourself to excel beyond your genetics. Your genetics are not guaranteed. They’re simply, hey, this is your predisposition. You’re more likely to be like this, but it’s not like a guarantee that you have to be like that. People will exceed their potential, people will. And that’s, who we are. Humans exceed their potential. That’s basically everything that you do with the work that you’re doing. So I wanna thank you again for taking the time to this. I know you’re busy guy. You got so many people that you’re working with, so I appreciate it. All the work that you’re doing. You know, one last thing you wanna leave us with sort of, for viewers to think about when it comes to human performance and potential. You know, give us, give us a nugget, a golden gem that you would, that you would wanna share with people.

Andy Walshe

Well, I think the first one is make sure your kids don’t interrupt interviews while you’re doing them.

Harris Khan

That’s okay, man, it’s a post COVID world.

Andy Walshe

No, I get it, I get it. I’m just like, you’re killing me, you’re killing me. I think the advice I would give people now is that these are these tools and genetics is a big one and it’s only becoming more relevant and more fully understood and more, and such has more impact. I would say, get to know yourself really, really as a human. No matter what you’re trying to achieve. Our first philosophy is just know thy self. Know yourself well. Do the work to recognize when you are thriving, when you are struggling, when you are, you know, when this particular workout helps, when this particular workout doesn’t, when you eat this it helps. And, you know, and build that puzzle for yourself. Try to take away as many of the questions. And I think that work again, and we typically start with gen X. It’s the first thing. 

All right, let’s just go right down to the, the root cause here and just see, but then build on it and build and build. And in that process, from an understanding of yourself, you’ll be then in a better position to lead, be part of a team, you know, be a better parent, be a better, you know, father, son, daughter, wife, partner, whatever it may be. And you can recognize that the human performance sort of just extends beyond the sort of classic athletic sense, but really applies to everybody in their life in some form or another. And yeah. I guess that’s the key to it and take that take and take it with a, with an act of kindness might make sure you, you recognize there’s no perfect solution. And as you learn about yourself, be kind to yourself and don’t, don’t take anything too seriously. That’s probably the biggest tip I can give people.

Harris Khan

That’s me. Coming from a guy who deals with people who take themselves too seriously for a living.

Andy Walshe

Yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, that’s their job. But if your job’s not that then just make it a journey that you enjoy. Don’t get too caught up in it because you never, and you know, you never stop learning. And we may work with someone for 20 years and there’s still things they do that surprise us. We learn, it’s like, wow. Could have used that information 20 years ago. You know, that’s how it goes. Thanks again, thanks again for all your listeners.

Harris Khan

Yeah, appreciate it Andy. Thank you for giving your time. And you know, I’m sure everyone’s listening is gonna take everything from your wealth of knowledge. So I appreciate you being a great partner to us and looking forward to chatting with you again then.

Andy Walshe

Ah, look forward to doing more great work together.

Harris Khan

Thanks.

Andy Walshe

Thank you.