Chronic Illness: Root Causes & Road to Recovery

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Hey everybody, it’s Robby Besner, and I’m back with another great episode in our Lyme series. And today I have a really unique doctor out of Wisconsin, that’s ground zero by the way, aside from the Lyme area around Lyme, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and all that stuff. The Wisconsin area has one of the largest concentrations of Lyme disease in the entire country, in case you guys didn’t know that. 

Today I have Dr. Allan Lindsley, you can find him at the midwestnaturalhealingcenters.com. He’s got an amazing new website he just brought up with a lot of content, some amazing videos, really great tips and things like that that you can unpack. But what I love about Allan, and I just met him just recently, but he is an incredible guy with a great journey. He’s gonna tell us a little bit about his story right now, and then we’re hoping to unpack some of his tips and secrets to give you guys an opportunity to get the edge on Lyme disease. 

So, with that, I wanna introduce Dr. Allan Lindsley. Thank you so much for joining us today, Allan, I know you’re super busy man, I mean, you’re just an encyclopedia knowledge, and I love how you tie not just the physical event of healing, but also you bring in the emotional content of that. And you really look at it from a natural holistic point of view, which is very different than in the traditional allopathic, Lyme-literate doctors that you know out there that kind of do methodical stuff. And you get some results from that, but we’re talking about long-term healing now, we’re talking about eradicating a lot of the symptoms. And you guys out there in Lyme land, you may always have Lyme in you, but the key to this whole discussion is really being symptom-free and living purposefully. So, let’s talk to Dr. Allan today, and see what he’s got to share with us. Allan, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Thanks for having me on, yeah. So I’ll give you a bit of background on my journey into this. In 1999, I lost my father, which I believe was to Lyme in a farming accident. I was an engineer at the time and thinking that I was gonna be engineer the rest of my life. And I got a phone call, and that my dad had been crushed by a piece of machinery. And for about five years, I’d watch my dad slowly declining, and we didn’t know what it was. We’re on a dairy farm in Wisconsin, we’re eating venison, we’re in the woods all the time, obviously we had ticks on us, but the Lyme really wasn’t even on the radar in the middle ’90s in Wisconsin. 

And so mom would say to me, quite often, “Boy, dad’s just acting really strange!” And every time he went into the medical doctor, it was one more medication, one more, “Oh, you’re depressed, you’re tired, you’re achy. “Take this, take this.” And it was never a solution to the real problem, which now I believe was Lyme, because, again, we got bit all the time, but nobody really talked about it. And they blamed it on his heart attack he’d had 10 years ago, so that really got me thinking that nine medications, in his mid 50s, 57 when he passed, but he’d struggled for five years. And I think he had, what I would say is the start of dementia at that point. He probably had the ApoE4 gene that we talk about, ’cause he had had a heart attack earlier on with the plaquing, and that’s common with that, and with the fibrillary tangles in the brain. So, I’m thinking he probably had the start of dementia, but probably driven mostly by the Lyme. 

So I quit engineering a year later and went and took all these classes, And I looked at all the avenues I could go to, and I didn’t start at that point thinking I was gonna be treating Lyme. I just wanted to get down farther down to figure out what was the real health problem with people? Why couldn’t they make energy? Why would my dad, at 57, who was on a dairy farm, eating his own beef, big garden, why would that cause a problem? You know, we had a really good food supply. 

And so through my journey of going to school to become a doctor, and I took the chiropractic route, thought that was the most natural route. I began to slowly learn that it wasn’t just structural stuff, it was a lot of chemistry that we had to get involved with. And of course there’s another whole emotional component, we talk about the triad of health; your structure, your chemistry and your emotions, and you really can’t separate those. And anybody who’s struggled with Lyme will know there’s a huge emotional component to Lyme eventually, that the hopeless, helpless feeling comes into play. And others, on a side note, I didn’t know that I had Lyme. I’d gotten bit when I was 11 in 1981. So this is well before Lyme is even on the radar, I believe, I don’t think they really figured it out until probably the early ’80s, that was Lyme, Connecticut, of course. And who would’ve thought that it was in Wisconsin that time?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right, exactly!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

So I went into a local doctor in 1981, and I was at almost 800 milligram ibuprofen. They’re both so big the tablets, you know, and that was my solution to the problem. And I struggled with high liver enzymes, and a stiff neck, and all these symptoms and fatigue, but I can still do amazing things physically, but I would wear down very quickly. And so by the time I graduated from school, at 37, with my degree in chiropractic, I was exhausted, ’cause Lyme was in the background. 

So, unknowingly, I had chronic Lyme as you know. And so I was working with a couple of people, they have the SCIO machines, these electronic machines that would scan you, and Lyme kept coming up. And she would say to me, “Well, Lyme is showing up! “Have you ever had Lyme disease?” I’m like, “But I’ve never had Lyme disease.” And so she’s, “Well, it’s into the red, should we treat it?” And I’m like, “Yeah, sure!” And she hit the button, treated me electronically, and I would feel amazing for a week, Robby, and then I would just slowly go back down, not knowing that I was getting part of the treatment done, but the toxins were still there, my immune system was suppressed. 

And so over time, as I moved back to Wisconsin from, I was in Kansas in 2005, 2006. When I got back home in 2007, I was just inundated by everybody saying, “Hey, what do you know about Lyme?” I’m like, “Not too much, you know?” And so then that made me dig into it, and then they’d say, “Well, I got treated by doxycycline. “I did real staff, and I did IV, “and I think all my symptoms are back.” And I go to the doctors here, and we have Mayo Clinic up in this area up here, which is known throughout the United States, I would believe, and they would be told point blank, “Chronic Lyme does not exist, “don’t talk about it, that’s it.” But no help. It was another medication, an antidepressant, it’s all in your head, go see a psychologist, and this is how it went for these people. 

But as they described the symptoms, I was like, “Hey, I have that, I have that sometimes!” So I started digging into a lot of the literature on Lyme, and Buhner’s books, and there were several others out there that I started looking at. And so, how we went through this whole system is, as people would come in, I started developing, and we muscle test in our clinic, and I would slowly grab 300 different herbs, and slowly, Robby, we’d go through and check Lyme against Borrelia burgdorferi, against all these herbs one by one by one, and we finally found the ones that we felt were the most critical or the ones that would match up or cancel the Lyme. 

And so, through Lyme; Babesia, Bartonella, ehrlichiosis, anaplasmosis, and all the different forms of Lyme, we were able to put different blends of herbs together and then test that. And that’s kind of how I got into it, not because I wanted to, because I was being asked over and over again. And what’s funny is several years into this, I had a girl come in with her mother, and she was probably 70 at the time. And her daughter had to bring her into the clinic ’cause she couldn’t drive, ’cause she would never got to the clinic, she had probably the start of dementia. And all we did was clean up the Lyme and clean up the toxins that were there, and by the third visit, she was driving her car, she was back to normal, and her daughter never told me what she did. She’d sat in the car and just take these copious notes, and one day she showed my office probably a year later and wanted me to treat her for Lyme. And I’m looking through her intake form, and she’s a pharmacist.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Okay.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

And I said to her, I said, “You’re a pharmacist, what do you want with herbs “and nutrition and detox?” And she said, “Well, I’ve read every white paper, “and every antibiotic used in the world “and I have access to it,” but she said, “I don’t believe that they cross the blood-brain barrier, “deep enough across into the joints, “deep enough to really get rid of it. “It looks good for organs, it’s looks good for muscles.” So we developed a nice relationship and we talked back and forth, but I thought that was funny that someone who really knows drugs, right? A pharmacist has eight years of chemistry, and she’s saying, “Yeah, it’s not gonna get it done.” And so that really made me dig even deeper to be far more understanding at that point. 

So that’s kinda how I got into it, and what we really learned is that, you know, the big question you get, and I’m sure you’ve got it too, Robby, is, do you ever get rid of Lyme? And I tell people over again, “Look, if you live to be 95, “you’re gonna do jog three miles a day, “know all your kids’ names and you’re fully functional. “If there’s two bugs there, I don’t care, “it’s all about symptomatic control. “Control of symptoms, number one, “and then can you actually live your life?” You know, there’s a lot of people existing with Lyme, but they’re not living anymore, and that was the big difference. So, my goal was to tell people, “Look, if we can bring your energy up in your cells, “and bring the load of toxins down, “at some point that teeter-totter flips. “When that teeter-totter flips you win.” And that’s what most people don’t address, I think, Robby, in this Lyme world. They wanna kill, kill, kill, and just give it all this, but the real deal is it’s not the Lyme that hurts you, it’s the excretions from them. Right?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right. The toxicity, exactly.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

The toxicity, it’s 100%, and we can talk more about that. So, about three years ago, I partnered up with CellCore, I don’t know, with Dr. Todd Watson and Dr. Jay, they developed CellCore, and Todd have been at it for a while, “Hey, Allan, come on out and let’s get your products in “with our products, I like it you!” ‘Cause I’d met Todd through helping him with some Lyme stuff years ago, and so he had an understanding of our product lines. So, finally I agreed, and we’ve kind of joined forces on that level. Now I get to research and lecture and we’re together quite a bit, but through that whole process I met Dr. Jay and met his wife and her story, and the story is really common out there. I had Lyme, have Lyme, get better, get worse, get better, get worse, but the body only knows stress, Robby, it’s just stress.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

So what’s the stressor? Is it work stress, life stress, marriage stress, Lyme stress, I had a car accident? It just knows stress, and so what we’re trying do is figure out how to, and it becomes emotional after awhile. You know? So the biggest thing we’ve learned is to turn the energy of that cell up, and when I developed a relationship with Todd, and we started looking at all the products, what we really started to focus on was mitochondria. Okay?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

And when we really understood mitochondria, how the mitochondria work, and how mitochondria can be poisoned, boy, when we got that piece of the puzzle for all these people with chronic Lyme or a parasitic infection, or it could be Epstein-Barr, anything where the body’s tired and we can bring the energy back up in the cell, it’s amazing, you win! You win pretty much every battle in the body when the cell has enough energy. My joke in my clinic is, if you make energy, you don’t need me. And I tell my patients that.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

You know, everybody looks at mitochondria as like the powerhouse, cell powerhouse. But when you really dive deep into the mitochondria’s function, they wear kind of two hats. And one certainly is cell energy, but when your body is being attacked by foreign bodies or being overwhelmed by an imbalance of microorganisms, parasites, mold, the co-infections, Lyme and so forth, it switches the hat from cell energy to sort of fighting the battle of trying to keep creating homeostasis or keeping decorum among the microorganisms that are so beneficial for our body to thrive. And so really what you’re talking about now is switching that hat back, kind of keeping, well, first, I guess first and foremost is lowering the toxic burden so that the patient becomes less symptomatic. 

And that gives them a lot of their energy back. You know, I wanna just dial back to something you said that I think is so important about dementia and Alzheimer’s, and you know what they’re discovering now in many of the autopsies on people that pass is that most of them, 98% have Lyme. And no one’s looking for Lyme as a root cause. So I just love that you went there, because people just think, A, it’s an enemy, and it’s not, it’s just an organism that’s thriving inside of you, you created a perfect storm environment for them. 

And so if you shift that back and give the body energy and supply the deficiencies of the nutrients that the body needs, that may be the parasites or the organisms have used up, then we’ve got a great platform for healing. And even diving into CellCore, by the way, they’re my number one go-to for the binders and things like that that we can talk about a little bit further, but we love using our infrared saunas to basically mobilize the toxins, and then the binders to grab it together, take the stress off of your filtering organs and then expel these toxins from the body, which is key. So let’s keep going, ’cause you’re just on a roll.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah, so one of the things that we noticed, so, when Todd asked me to come in, I was lecturing about Lyme initially, and we got to the mitochondria part of that. And you’re absolutely right, when that whole cell danger thing, or when the mitochondria senses an infection there, one of the things they’ll do is when you make ATP in the mitochondria, you got one or two choices. You can make energy for the cell, or that ATP molecule can actually leave and go and help out the immune system. So when it leaves, it actually is trying to help out the immune system if the immune system is in this fight. 

So let’s go back to the most perfect situation. A bacteria comes in the body, a parasite comes to the body, the body recognizes it, and through your innate immune system, you fire up, and you get your macrophages going, and you’re basically engulf or attack this bacteria, or this virus, and you would kill it. Problem being, is Lyme is a little sneaky. It comes in and it can paralyze parts of your immune system, and it uses the bloodstream to get into the body. And here’s the mistake that most doctors make, is they’re looking, and they’re going there, and they’re pulling blood from your body, and they’re trying to find this Lyme, but where does chronic Lyme hide, Robby? We know it hides in the brain and it goes into the joints, so it almost uses the bloodstream like a super highway. 

And, of course, in that bloodstream, there’s a circling immune system, and it says, “I don’t like being chased and killed, “so I’m gonna take this exit.” And it happens to be that, “I’m gonna burrow across,” it’s a spirochete, “up the blood-brain barrier, “I’m gonna burrow into the joints. “And I kind of like it here, “because if I get to the brain “I’m only dealing with the microglial cells, “and I can take those out or push them down a little bit, “and I can go into the joints, “I’m just dealing with some local macrophages here, “and I got a nice food supply.” So I always tell people, your bloodstream pumps thousands of gallons of blood everyday, okay? It’s like a river, it’s flowing, and, of course, your liver is cleaning it, and your kidneys are filtering it. 

So even a river cleans itself, but when you get outside that river, I call it the stagnant-pond situation or syndrome, where above the blood-brain barrier there’s no more blood there, if there’s blood in parts of your brain is not supposed to, we call it an aneurysm, you don’t live very long. And it gets into the joints, that’s another stagnant pond, there’s no blood in your synovial fluid, or there shouldn’t be, correct? So these bugs set up there, and what do they do? Well, they create ammonia, which is one of the big toxins. And one of the things that we found when ammonia is there, it’s a very, very high pH, about 11.46. So it’s about 46,000 times higher than your pH, and it basically tears you apart. 

I’d say like melting, high pH melts you, a low pH will tear you apart, they’re very different. But when I started noticing that we would have this toxin there, and I always tell my Lyme patients, and I’ve checked probably, I’m gonna say 35 or 40,000 people in the last maybe closer to 50,000, I’ve done over 80,000 patient treatments now, I checked every person that walks in my clinic for Lyme. Every person. The joke is, “Hey doc, can you check me for the bugs today? “Am I making the energy, and give me an adjustment.” I’m like, “Oh, all in 15 minutes?” “Yeah, you can do it!” So I can literally check, so we use mixed vials in the clinic, and it’ll have eight or nine different forms of Lyme in there, 10 or 15 forms of Bartonella, and we just scan the body. And I use a little thing called a resonator, so it’s kind of a device, and then I can muscle test them too to show. But what we’ve found through thousands and thousands and thousands of people is that, it’s never the bug, it’s always the bog, poop, if I can say that. It’s a really simple way to say it, it’s the toxin they’re secreting. So I always try to go after the things that are secreting toxins. 

So what secretes the toxins? So, a bacteria, a parasite, a spore, a mold spore will secrete toxins. So, one of the interesting things I found last fall, and I got add too, let’s take one step back, I got to neglect to say it’s a couple of years ago, ’cause Todd says, “So, you’re a farm guy, you should lecture on glyphosate!” So I started digging into it and I made a bunch of miles with glyphosates and pesticides, insecticides, and I started testing people where do they hide, where are they at? And it became very apparent that with, so let’s just take Roundup, for example, it’s the most common one used out there, 93% of the crops in our area up here use Roundup, or the main ingredient glyphosate, okay? To be used in the growing of these GMOs, genetically-modified organisms, so it’s soybeans, it’s corn. 

Unfortunately, they also spray the glyphosate on top of oats now, on top of potato crops, on top of weed, ’cause they’ve convinced the farmer that it’s a better way to go, that it dries faster. So what we found is when we started testing people for glyphosate, we found glyphosate chronically in the gut system, ’cause people were ingesting it if it was being sprayed, you’d find the lung filled. But what I thought was really interesting is that, we found glyphosate accumulating in the brain and the joints. And after digging into the pathways, we found that it was not only accumulating, Robby, it was integrating, it was becoming part of the tissue. So glyphosate can be an analog for glycine, okay? It can actually switch it up, so when it does that, there goes your collagen, your myelin sheath in your brain, cell signaling can become a problem. So what we found is where anybody had chronic Lyme hiding in the brain and the joints, we also found glyphosate there.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Interesting!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Now, and that’s a huge. Now, remember glyphosate pushes down, downregulates 291 enzymes in the body that we know of, okay? It also, upregulates 30 of them that we don’t want upregulated. So it really tips that, so any of these mitochondria pathways for energy, phase 1 liver, the site enzymes, cytochrome P450, get decimated by glyphosate. So, here’s the problem is that, wherever the glyphosate is sitting, the mitochondria function drops, the energy of the cell drops, and then Lyme says, “Why would I ever leave here?” And then it’s after that problem, we found a little bit, well, actually not a little bit, we started playing with the new product from CellCore it’s called Carboxy, and Carboxy is a binder of basically mycotoxins. 

So we put together a vial with about 40 different mycotoxins in it, like, aflatoxins and ochratoxins and the penicilliums and all these different toxins, and we started to check the body. And interestingly enough, guess what we found? We found that the mold would be in your gut, so I had bad peanut butter, a bad cup of coffee, they go, “Oh, it’s organic, it can’t, no, no, no…” Look, organic, conventional, it doesn’t matter, if you don’t process the product right mold shows up, right? So they had these mold toxins showing up in their tummy, it could get in the liver, but the body was always trying to clean the liver system, and the bloodstream cleaned pretty good, the lungs if they are living in it. But what was really interesting is you could find it in the brain, Robby, and you find it in the joints. 

And I’ve been scratching my head saying, how does mold toxins get into the joints of the brain? So I call Dr. Jeff Griswold out there at CellCore, and I said, “Jeff, how big is a mold spore?” He goes, “Oh, it’s about five microns.” And I said, “Is it possible that the Lyme could Pac-Man or swallow up the mold spore, carry it up into the brain or into the joints, excrete it back out, and then they sit and play. And so what I call it, Robby, out of the picture of it, I call it the cycle of destruction now for anybody in the mold world or anybody the Lyme world, so you get Lyme coming into the tissue, and we’re of course it’s creating this very high pH ammonia, and that destroys the tissue, right? And the mold spores say, “Oh, thank you, I only eat decaying tissue.” 

So the mold spores will ingest what the Lyme bugs broke down and then they secrete the mycotoxins, which we know are a terrible immune suppressor, terrible energy suppressor, mitochondrion suppressor, and then the circle’s completed by the Lyme saying, “Hey, thanks, mold spores and mycotoxins, “the immune system is so suppressed here, I can live here.” So I call it the cycle of destruction, they just play with each other all the time, and they’re very suppressive to the immune system. But what might be even more interesting, I’ll be presenting this from Florida here next week, is the amazing increase of how does a person with Lyme feel, Robby, in the brain, how do they feel typically?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Oh, well, they’ve got a full host of the cognitive challenges or they just have these episodes where they would sort of drift away, they get rash in the face and then-

Dr. Allan Lindsley

It’s like, is anybody there?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yeah, and then boom, they kind of go into it and then they snap out of it, and they virtually have no memory of that one to two minutes. It’s almost like a little mini-stroke or something where their brain is just sort of just stepping out for a minute then stepping back in. Many people talk about brain fog and short-term memory challenges, and you’re really unpacking this in a different way today, Allan, which is, I think, so important for people to understand that there’s a full sort of Daisy chain of chemical reactions and coexistences of these organisms that are playing on our systems and really taking the upper hand because of that. And I know that you’re gonna come, hopefully, at the end of our discussion or towards the end, you’ll give us some real solutions to all this. As you mentioned, one, Carboxy is. I know it just came out, and I know that it’s like, now I believe it’s gonna be the flagship of the CellCore binder selections and things like that, I think it’s just amazing.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

So one of the things that’s interesting that people don’t talk about, because in the Lyme world, okay, let’s just go back for these Lyme-literate medical doctors, and sometimes I call them Lyme-illiterate medical doctors, because they go to a weekend seminar, and they know the world on Lyme disease, but it’s not really how it works. If you decide to kill a bacteria or a parasite, but this is a parasite, you better darn well be able to bind those toxins up. So when I worked the pathway thousands and thousands of times for all these patients, what I find, Robby, over again is that it’s 95% of the time it’s not a deficiency the patient has, it’s a toxin blocking the pathway, okay? And that’s a really important thing to understand, because what they’ll come into your office with is their garbage bag, right? Literally a garbage bag, okay, let’s just say it’s a Kroger bag or it’s a Whole Foods bag of 24 supplements that keep them alive. 

And they’ll say to you, “Oh, doc, if I run out of one of these, I just go downhill.” And you’re, “Whoa, time out, time out!” We had concentration camps and people starved for months on end and they survived, how could you, you know? So you think about this for a second, it’s not a deficiency, it’s a toxicity. Now, let me explain the way I explain it to my patients. I said, “Okay, every reaction the body uses an enzyme, okay? “And most reactions are several steps long, 15, 20, “Krebs cycle, 21, 22 steps from a molecule of sugar to ATP.” So let’s go through this, so what does an enzyme do? Enzymes gotta be able to move, and it’s got to grab things and put things together or take things apart, okay? So every step an enzyme has to do this work and then hand it off and then do this work and hand it off, so let’s go, we go A, B, C, oh, D, I got to D, and I’ve got toxins up to here, and I can’t get any farther.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

So what a lot of people that are doing functional medicine “Oh, you need more omega-3s, “you need more B vitamins, you need more minerals, “you need more this or that or that.” Oh, I mean, just get over and make some more energy, we can kind of keep going. But 95% of the time, it’s this toxin right here, okay? A heavy metal, mold toxins, Lyme toxins. If we can just grab a hold of that and move it out of the way, now we can sing the song “ABCD,” you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, move right through. And that’s the biggest mistake I see most people that have chronic Lyme or people treating that. I mean, for example, I had a young client the other day from California with 43 supplements.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Oh my God!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

43. And I look at all of them, and I’ve used all of those at one point in time, but the protocol was, here’s your four antibiotics, and we’re gonna change it every month, and I was like two or $3,000 a month, right? And 1000 for the doc, well, that’d be a $50,000 program, we should do Lyme for a couple thousand dollars in our office here. Because I treat the carpenter, the welder, the plumber. I’m not treating Mr. Executive, you know what I’m saying? And you’re treating-

Robby Besner PSc.D.

You’re treating all the people that are listening today, that’s the truth.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah, yeah!

Robby Besner PSc.D.

And that’s why, well, as you probably know from the numbers, probably the number one reason why people run out of money is because of maintaining their health care if their insurance companies don’t pick that up. And so that’s also another thing that I love about you, you’re so grounded, and you really focusing on the average guy out there, which is everybody that’s listening today, so it’s so important. But before you go into it a little deeper, I just wanted to make a mention to you. I have a close friend, Dr. Zach Bush, and he started that whole thesis on glyphosate. And really what he was focusing on was leaky gut, and now we’ve got leaky gut, leaky throat, leaky brain. Again, another thing that you pointed out about how insidious a glyphosate is. But Dr. Lee Cowden, who’s one of my mentors, brought out about two or three years ago that they’re finding trace amounts of glyphosate in the air we’re breathing, in the water that we’re drinking, 

And so when you talk about that chain, yeah, the farmers are spraying it on, and I think it was something like 200 tons a year for 20 years was coming into our environment. So they spray it on the ground a bit with the excuse of going after insects or whatever, and GMOs and all this stuff that you mentioned, but then the rain brings it down through the root system, and then it evaporates up into the air and then it rains back down. So we’re getting it either from directly or we’re getting it indirectly, because the animals that we’re eating are eating the grass that’s being sprayed by the glyphosate. And so whether you get it directly or indirectly, it’s all around, and it’s a problem that everybody out there is gonna be dealing with in not too short of a time. So keep going on your thesis, because this is truly, it’s truly amazing what you’re saying to us today.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah, maybe this is my thesis. So what we found was interesting, is that wherever we found glyphosate in the body harboring chronically, we found chronic Lyme. And then where we found that we also found chronic mold, because of the cycle of destruction takes place there, so we know that glyphosate suppresses the immune system, suppresses mitochondrial function, and that’s why you have all these cancer cases going on right now, because of what’s happening here with this buildup of glyphosate, especially if somebody is like spraying it or exposed to it. I think people working in the sugar cane fields, 25% of them have kidney failure and just crazy amounts of stuff. So glyphosate in the most basic form was released as a pipe cleaner back in the ’60s to clean pipes, but what it does is it binds to minerals, and actually it binds to any positive minerals just to talk about it for a second. 

So a lot of atrazines are very specific, they might bind to zinc, they might bind to calcium, but this one binds all minerals, so it’s a mineral chelator, it’s gonna pull the mineral out. So it pulls a mineral, it blocks a pathway called the shikimate pathway in the plant, so they do this GMO-ing, where they get around that, so the plant gets knocked down, but it can come back up. So they’re spraying it directly onto a live plant, but all the weeds are killed around it. So that’s absorption, but then it hits the ground that reabsorbs into the ground, and eventually it comes up the soil, up the plants stem, and it’s dissolved, and now we’re finding in the center of the nut versus being on the surface of the soybean pod, okay? 

So, to pull that level of crazy, and then it does bind to the mineral, and as it rains, it gets dropped down and it gets into the water table, and of course, we all know if you have a well, you’re gonna have minerals in that water, and it’s attached to the mineral and now I’m drinking it, so it’s a big problem. 

So what we found in the brain, which is really interesting, I’ll be talking about this next week, is that you have neurons in your brain, and they say about a billion neurons, Robby, and a about a trillion synapsis, okay? Who counted them? I have no idea, so it’s average, okay? So, that being said about seven to 10% of your brain is microglial cells, and those are the local immune system in your brain. So here’s what we commonly see, when these microglial cells are there in your brain, and they call them a resting state. And a resting state means, if you get a concussion, it’s gonna come and try to repair the concussion and take out the damaged neurons, or if there’s a poison there, it’s gonna try to pick the poison out, or it’s gonna grab an infection, it’s gonna engulf it, and that’s how macrophages would typically work. 

But when you have a chronic toxin in the brain, and what would Lyme be? It’s a chronic toxin. And now we’re seeing glyphosate there, we’re seeing mold mycotoxins there, all playing with each other, because the Lyme bugs I believe are carrying them in. Now we have a pretty huge load of chronic toxin. Now, chronic stress is no different as it is the same with a chronic toxin. So if I have a terrible job or I’ve had a terrible car accident or a fall, or a relationship that’s not good, that’s a chronic stress, or finding Lyme is a chronic stress. So all of that stresses my brain down, and so these microglial cells will go from their resting, easy-going state, to this primed, yeah, that’s it, gloves off, let’s go, and they go into what they call an M1 form, and now they’re gonna fight. And what they secrete are cytokines, okay? NF, NF-alpha, and there’s a couple other toxins they secrete, but they secrete these toxins because what they believe is happening in this whole cascade, if I can put together properly, ’cause it’s kind of a complicated thing, so we’re gonna give you the, as one guy said, the Reader’s Digest version. 

The neurons in the brain, when they have chronic toxins from Lyme, mold, heavy metal, glyphosate, they begin to become damaged, and they will actually secrete a signal for apoptosis. “Hey, take me out, I’m not strong anymore.” The microglial cell picks that up and sees the signal, and then it talks to another cell in the brain called the astrocytes. Well, here’s, what’s interesting, the astrocyte cells in the brain are the ones that are protecting your blood-brain barrier, they’re looking for toxins, they’re actually helping signal chemically new neurons to be made, new synapses to be made, but when they are told by the microglial cell to go fight, they actually are the ones that engulf the neuron. 

And so here’s what actually I believe is happening in the brain, chronic toxin, chronic stress, neurons become damaged by this chronic stress, microglial cells pick up the signal, they call up their buddy the astrocyte, which goes into an A1 form, okay? And they start destroying neurons like crazy, okay? And it’s a cascade that if you don’t get the toxins out of the brain, you can’t shut that cascade down, okay? So instead of the astrocytes making new neurons and new synapses and really keeping your brain vital, it’s literally destroying your brain because the toxin is there. 

I mean, again, it’s not the Lyme, it’s always the toxin, but we’re dealing with multiple toxins here, not just one. So this thing spins on itself, I call it the cycle of destruction, right? So, guess what they found on everybody did an autopsy on who died of ALS, MS, Parkinson’s, or dementia, they found high levels of M1 microglial cells in their brain tissue, high levels of astrocytes in the A1 form. They found high levels of cytokines, the signaling there, and so they found for sure, 100%, that that was what was happening. 

So guess what’s on the rise in this country right now, Robby? ALS, MS, Parkinson’s, dementia is through the roof, and young dementia, we’re calling it of autism today. So, when one kid gets attacked by mold or by glyphosate or by Lyme, or God-forbid all three in the brain, instead of this kid being able to prune his synapses and have this perfect bit, they literally get stuck at five. And then we throw 72 vaccinations in there by the time they’re five, which is a whole nother level of chemical cell signaling. And this kids, they get stuck in what I would say, the early brain development. So what is an autistic kid? They’re either happy or they’re violent typically, right? There’s no in between, they don’t have the higher centers, and they never get to develop those because they get stuck. So instead of pruning synaptically and making all these really good choices in the brain about being able to talk and think, and using upper parts of the brain, they are stuck because of the toxins there. 

And they spin in this muck, and this astrocyte keeps destroying and they’re not developing new neurons, and then literally their brain development gets paralyzed by the Lyme being there probably, the glyphosates being there, no one knows for sure which one it is. And then think about a person whose had Lyme for 10, 20, 30 years, they become very hopeless and very helpless, ’cause what do these toxins do? They basically eventually put somebody into severe anxiety, depression, brain fog, they don’t care anymore, the will to live is gone. 

I’ve seen it. I’ve dealt with it, man. I mean, I was at a point 12 years ago when I first went on my Lyme journey myself where just graduating, huge amounts of stress, trying to develop a business, and there were days I could, and my joke was I would go home and fall asleep at the wheel of fortune and wake up to the evening news at 10 o’clock and recycle myself. And I couldn’t, I couldn’t do anything anymore. My life was, I was existing, I wasn’t living, so I had to kind of work myself out of this hole by just reading and looking. 

And it was basically sheer determination that got me out of it, because that was probably as bad at that point, after going through three or four elder boards and all the schooling that I was as bad as anybody out there with Lyme, and it was just probably a gift from God more than anything that just kept pointing me in the right direction, and I would add this to the protocol add this to the protocol. So what we now know about most of the disease processes in the body today, I believe, it’s the toxin first, okay? Suppressing the mitochondria, suppressing the immune system, causing your brain to be lit up and literally destroyed by these toxins, and so we can fight all day long and take all kinds of antibiotics, but that’s almost a backwards approach to it. 

You have to bring that inflammation down in the brain, so you quiet the microglial, the M1 cells in the brain, you quiet the astrocyte cells in the brain so they stop attacking you. If you can do that part and then, okay, let’s do a little bit of binding, let’s do a little bit of lowering the pathogenic load that’s there, then we can win the battle most of the time, we can keep somebody above board. Because, remember, if your mitochondria are working at a high enough level, you’re gonna have the immune system to keep the bugs down if that makes sense?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Totally. And I love your approach, ’cause the angle, I mean, you know, I often say when in our own coaching and the things we’re doing on the infrared side, but toxicity and inflammation they sort of travel on the same highway together. And if you can lower toxic load and toxic burden, then you lower inflammation, and then now we’re sort of reversing that little spiral or that coil that we wound up really tight. And so people become less symptomatic, and then they have hope, because when you’re sick and you kind of can’t figure it out and you’re reaching out to all your resources and they’re not helping you, or you have glimmers of help or health in a sense, and then you kind of go back into, you have another episode and you’re going, “Oh my God, this is just never gonna end!” And what I feel is even more, maybe I’m just hypersensitive to this, but the adolescents, the young kids, when they get hit with this, they just see their lives falling away in front of their eyes, you know? 

And so what you’ve done today is really unpacked, like the under-the-sheet process that’s going on in the body. And that’s so important to understand, because we have all these, we’ve got hundreds of thousands of organisms in us that are beneficial, that we need, in order for us to digest food and all that kind of stuff. And really what we’re discussing is the imbalance of these microphages and these different microorganisms and how that affects us, and bringing that back into balance. 

And we’ve got smart bugs, but now we know why they’re super smart, because they’re actually using our blood system as a transport, like a super highway to get around, they’ve figured out where to hide, so they’ve got everything they need; low oxygen, a perfect host, not a big blood supply, so they really found their home. And I’ve always seen this, but I never quite understood this until today was the relationship between Lyme and mold, because we see in clinic that when a Lyme patient gets exposed to mold they get completely whacked out, right? And now we know why, because they found buddies, these two guys hang out together and they’re both equally as, in a sense, destructive in pulling the body apart and using body resources and using your minerals. And then you haven’t touched really on heavy metals in a big sense, but they tie in also to this whole thing. 

So, wow, it’s amazing! You know, one thing that really impressed me when I was reading some of the materials that you write about on your website, which people can find you, the new website is midwestnaturalhealingcenter.com. What I loved what you wrote was that, it’s just like you’re still learning. Like here you are on top of the pyramid of breakthrough understandings of how the body works and how to repair the body, and you’re humble enough to say, you learn from your patients, you learn from every day in your clinic and you bring that information to the world, and it’s so cool, Allan. 

Thank you so much for giving us this insight. We only have a few minutes, and I know that you’ve got a full day ahead of yourself today, what kind of other things, like tips, could you give people to kind of get them started, get them in the right direction? You mentioned the CellCore product line, you’re gonna be a featured speaker at their conference coming up, again, bringing a lot of this great information to the world. Where do we start? Give us a couple of tips that you think that might be important for us to-

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Well, I think that everything I’ve learned so far is, you know, so if we’re talking to a practitioner who might be listening to this, we would want the practitioner to work with the inflammation and the toxins as much as you work with trying to reduce the pathogen load, right? And maybe these two first sometimes, especially when a person says, “Oh, I take two drops of this, and I feel like I’m dying.” Well, then we know the microglial cells and the inflammation is really high in the brain, so we wanna try to draw that down. So a couple ideas that I have, ’cause I do use CellCore quite a bit, and I love what they’ve done with that, so they have a product called Inflamma Control. I combined that with their TUDCA product quite a bit, because the TUDCA, the clean one that they use there actually rebuilds, through literature, they found rebuilds glial cells. 

And I couldn’t put two and two together, and so I started looking at the microglial, astrocytes, so if you have a product that actually regenerates liver, ’cause where do all these toxins go first, Robby? They have to go to your liver, and they have to be methylated, and hydroxylated, and conjugated, now you can clear them out finally, right? So we have to go actually beyond the liver, but liver is really stretched out, so the phase 1 liver is not working, there’s a great thing, so TUDCA will help you get that moving. But the Inflamma Control seems to bring that M1 right out, so I’ve checked it over and over again with patients. So using those two products brings that inflammation down quite a bit in the brain, and just doing that’s a great starting point, because now we can probably start to go after some of these pathogens. So in the CellCore product line that I helped develop, the herbal tinctures, we have IS-BORR for Borrelia, IS-BAB for Babesia, IS-BART for Bartonella, and then there’s one called IS-BOOST that will help any of the other three. That’s a great starting point there to use that, and I love to use any one of those in combination with another product called BioToxin Binder. 

Though BioToxin Binder is a great product that they have that binds, I always say molds, metals, Lyme, and glyphosate, it binds all four. So it’s a great general binder, so like when you’re using the saunas and doing these things. I always tell people, if you’re gonna use an infra sauna, I said, “Hey, a couple before you go in, “a couple after you come back out, take a shower.” And then they’ve got a product called CT-Minerals, ’cause if you’re in a sauna you’re gonna sweat a little bit, and you’re gonna have a little bit of mineral moving through the body. 

And one of the biggest things I find is the CT-Minerals that they have are also oxygenated, okay? So when they come into body, they’re actually giving the cells oxygen back, and remember the glyphosates moving these minerals out, and Lyme is stealing your manganese, it steals magnesium, so some mineral supplementation is good. So the protocols you wanna do are lowering the inflammation while doing a little bit of pathogen removal at the same time, while making sure when it gets to the liver, you can actually run it through the phases, and it’ll go out through the bowels or through the bladder. ‘Cause if it doesn’t quite often, what do you see, Robby? You see people with these skin lesions or sores or just rashes, because you’re making the skin a kidney, and that’s not-

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Okay.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

You don’t wanna do that, you wanna make sure it’s moving through the, you know? The kidney says, “Oh, no, I don’t want!” The liver says, “I don’t want them!” says, “Oh, I’ll take it.” And then of course the sauna will help you move some of that through, of course, because it’s gonna heat the cells up and you’re gonna have some movement there and we make sure that we can bind it well. So, really quickly, HM-ET is an amazing binder for glyphosates, okay?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Okay!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

HM stands for heavy metal and ET environmental toxins, and so that’s a great one for binding up, if you have a known glyphosate problem, and I say anybody who has chronic Lyme, anybody who lives in a farming community, or just anywhere, I’ve checked over 10,000 people now for glyphosate, and I can tell you, I have not found a single person yet that didn’t have some level in their body, okay? And again, we didn’t touch on this today, but Zach Bush talks about leaky gut, leaky brain, all of these membranes are made from elastin and collagen, aren’t they? 

So one of the things I’ll be talking about in Florida, I’ve talked about several times with the CellCore eco seminars is that glyphosate displaces glycine and makes the collagen very weak. Normal collagen should stretch like your intestinal system should stretch, ligaments should stretch and compress and not break, but look at all the kids today that can’t play sports anymore, Robby, 70% are non-contact sports injuries. You and I are not too far apart in age, we never saw anybody tearing an ACL. 

We never saw the intestinal problems we have today of the gut, so you have to remove that glyphosate out over time, so that you can get really good cross-linking of your collagen, so you can have a good gut wall, you can have a good blood-brain barrier. And if you can do that, that’s half the battle, just grabbing these things that aren’t supposed to be there. My joke is, hey, let’s get rid of what’s not you and rebuild you, two-step process. And so many people aren’t aware of the glyphosates, they’re not aware of the mold toxins, and then the chronic chronic Lyme issue around the country. And I think Lyme is allowed to be there because these other two are there now, and then so controlling inflammation through the Inflamma Control with the TUDCA is amazing for the brain, binding the HM-ET, the Carboxy specifically for mold toxins. I don’t think there’s a better product out there. 

I’m not trying to promote CellCore in a sense, I love their products, I love the people that formulate for them, but I have not found a better product. Like, I mean, a lot of the medical facilities use that because of a lot of GI distress there, but the Carboxy is amazing at binding up mold toxins. And there’s a little bit of Carboxy and the biotoxin binder, and that’s why I like using that upfront ’cause it’s a general binder. And when I’m at a pathway, Robby, and I’m looking at mitochondria function and I can’t get pyruvate to convert into the Krebs cycle, 95% of the time, if I applied on of those binders there, instead of the pyruvate not getting down into the energy cycle and just kicking off the lactic acid, I can resolve that problem in days, having them convert by just grabbing up the toxins first. 

And then a little supplementation on top of that, but I think a lot of people we’ve been told, when you get a lab test back and it says that you’re low on something, or you’re not getting through the Krebs cycle, you’re blocked, the first one we’ve always done is grabbing a nutritional product, right? And so you cannot use a builder you need to use a binder or detoxifier first, right? So, building, I always tell my carpenters, and I always joke around, I say, “So would you ever throw two-by-fours into a burning house?” And they go, “Well, no, you idiot, you wouldn’t do that.” I said, “Well, you’re on fire. “Why are we throwing more two-by-fours in the house?” Let’s put the fire out, assess the damage, grab the damage, grab the toxins, right? And now we’ve got a pretty good picture after a couple months of what needs to be rebuilt. Does that make sense?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Totally, it’s so amazing. I mean, and it’s also, to me, it’s intuitive, but it’s counterintuitive to the general understanding of the way to manage this stuff, you know. Like you see a blood test, you’re deficient, so just take more of that supplement, but how could you take that supplement? Basically, you’re almost wasting your money because the supplement really is either getting, you’re now giving more fuel to the bugs that are using it to work against you, so wow, that-

Dr. Allan Lindsley

A good example would be parasites. You know, CellCore’s very, very good Dr. Todd Watson, Dr. Jay really talk a lot about parasites, but when somebody comes in and they have anemia, maybe they’re running 11 and a half or 12 hemoglobin, and their ferritin is at 20, and it should be, of course, very different than that, the last thing you wanna do is throw iron at them. ‘Cause you asked the questions; do you have a bleeding ulcer, do you have tarry stools? Do you see blood coming out your rectum? No, no, I don’t. Do you have a 12-day period? No, you’re a guy, you don’t have a cycle. So, if all these things aren’t there, well, where’s the blood going or where’s the iron going? You’ve got the taking your blood cells apart, stealing your iron, of course your ferritin store, quite a bit of it stored in your liver. So it gets into your liver iron tank, and it starts to lower your levels here. We have to remove the pathogen first, otherwise we feed iron. They’re just like, “Oh, thank you!” It’s like fertilizer to the bugs.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yeah, exactly, wow!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

You know, I loved what you just, you just touched on the collagen piece, and when we first met, you were getting into it a little bit deeper. And we’re working with light frequencies and the near-infrared frequencies on the full spectrum devices that we make actually support mitochondria and the Krebs cycle. They also do microcirculation, which brings more oxygen, and they also support the natural production of collagen. 

And so we’ve always looked at it from my perspective on that from the anti-aging point of view, not from, why the heck is the collagen that’s supposed to be flexible actually being rigid? And how does that translate? And you mentioned it when young athletes are getting injured when they shouldn’t be, because they should be totally flexible, a lot of it has to do with that. And it leads back to many of the things, these imbalances and the glyphosates and everything else that’s basically eating us up from the inside out.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah, we’re all told not to go out in the sunlight anymore and sun is bad for you and all this stuff. But when you have your far-infrared or near-infrared type devices, they actually drop. So I’ll say how I have researched it, is the red spectrum goes right to what they call complex 3, which is almost the last step in the Krebs cycle. So I go, when you use a red-light type of device, like you have like a sauna with these infrared, I say you’re basically getting energy to the very end of the cycle in one step, and you have energy without even eating. I mean, the whole reason we eat is to make ATP. 

So when you add this light coming, red light therapy or a sauna like that, it’s dropping onto complex 3, two steps you have ATP. So that’s why people 10 to 15 minutes a day are in one of these devices, it’s amazing for their ability to make energy because they don’t have to digest the food, they don’t have to run through the Krebs cycle, they need to breathe, okay, but other than that, with the oxygen there ’cause you’re taking photon light and turning into electrons and running right then the electron transport chain, it’s a really neat process. So that’s why a lot of people feel so much better using a device like that 20, 30 minutes a day as part of… And then the other side effect is you have the detoxifying, because it is stimulating those pathways and making you sweat a little bit, opening up and you can move the toxins out. So it’s a nice combination.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yeah, amazing. You know, one of the things aside from my affinity to Dr. Davidson and the whole group at CellCore, one thing that really impressed me was the fact that there, like part of their foundational piece or pillar behind their product line is a charged carbon particle. And so that charge, that ionic charge, is so important to have the proper assimilation of their product line. And so, essentially, our bodies are like little batteries, you know, or our cells are like little batteries, so in order for us to have a neurological system that’s optimal, that battery actually has to be a neutral charge. 

The same amount of negative and the same amount of positive charge in the body. But most of us don’t don’t touch the earth anymore, and so we don’t get the negative charge of the earth or that ionic charge to create that balance, all right? Now, CellCore products offer the negative charge, so the potentiating of all of their supplements is so much greater than anything else I’ve seen out there. And that is the absorption, so that’s really super, super, super important. And I love that as soon as I heard that, I said, “Oh my God, I’m done!” Because I’m sold on the CellCore line because of that, just from that element alone, you know? Anyway, wow!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

And what’s interesting is one of the main drivers they use in a lot of their products are humics and phobics. And where are they pulled from? The earth.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Exactly.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

They have the ability to give and take hydrogens and oxygens and electrons basically. So it’s like taking charged particles from the earth and ingesting them, and these things have been the earth for thousands of years, but it’s not like charcoal, where charcoal has been burned to a crisp and there’s no carbon energy left there. So these are charged carbons with hydrogens and oxygens waiting to come in and do the work in your body, which is really interesting. And I think they have some of the highest, Dr. Jeff Griswold, he’s become a good friend and we talk, and he tells me the energy of these products. Well, some of them, and I just wanna set a reference. He says, if you have 500 or 800, that’s like a really good product, I believe the oxygen in minerals are, I don’t remember which one is it, it’s over 12,000.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

It’s crazy.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

He’s developing one now in a lab it had 166,000 units of energy. And I’m not sure the energy measurement, but he said, “Look, most products, three to 500, maybe 700.” He’s got one that’s over 150,000 that they’re developing right now, so when it comes to, think of the energy that it gives a cell, and that’s the real healing that takes place there, is you can get energy from your food, you can get energy from the oxygen, the water, all these things coming together, and they have to all work together. But bottom line is, if you can take a product that’s got high energy, ’cause if it doesn’t have high energy, it can actually draw energy from your body.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Right, exactly!

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Some are not made properly, so they’re really, really big about making sure that the actual product is gonna give you energy, and the ability to detoxify, and the ability to bind. So that’s what I like about the products.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yeah, and also they’re photon or light-activated. And so if you give it a little bit of sunshine, like we’re doing it, sort of where we’re delivering sunshine in our saunas and the healing pads and things like that, but it’s that extraction of those frequencies that actually are activating the charged particle as well, the charged carbon.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah!

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Wow, amazing day, amazing opportunity to jump inside your brain and get some information that I think is just so important for people to really understand what’s going on, and then to help them sort of organize the way back out.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

I guess one thing I’d add here is don’t lose hope. I know I was a chronic Lyme person for 30 years, didn’t know it, and when you can finally take the fire off the brain and inflammation off the brain, that’s when the real healing begins, I believe, and that’s a big piece I think a lot of people have been missing. So that’s one of the things I love about what I’m able to bring to CellCore. And I see patients, I see four to 5,000 people a year. And I’ll just say this the way I see it, if you’re not seeing patients live, it’s really hard to do the testing. You know, a lot of people have gone completely virtual, which is fine, but I pride myself on still seeing a lot of face-to-face patients testing, interacting, because that’s where I really learn my bulk of the stuff. 

And I can take that information right back to CellCore and say, “Can we look at this?” And that’s a very quick turnaround time there, but the biggest thing is taking inflammation off the brain, get those glial cells to calm down, grab that toxin, and then you have a clear path for treating pathogens using light-type devices like yours. Bring the energy back to the cell, and then try to eat as organic as possible. You know, I always say know your food source, know the person who grew the food as much as possible, these are the things you can do control. And one of the things I tell people, “Look, if you stop eating it, they’ll stop growing it. “If you don’t buy the crap, they’re not gonna grow anymore.” You know, we vote with our shopping cart, that’s it?

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yep, perfect.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

And that’s probably, part of that’s just getting educated and going, “Wow, GMOs are all loaded with glyphosates, “insecticides and fungicides. “If I can move away from that stuff, “I can just be healthier by that.” I mean, I don’t know if you can truly get organic anymore, it’s really difficult, but you can definitely get less conventional, and that’s your starting point was these products and what you’re doing, that’s the starting point for most people. If we go back to 1950, I always kid saying 1950 was easy, there was almost no insecticides, pesticides, herbicides out there, there was very little plastic, it was all glass. We all had a garden in the backyard, some chickens running around, and we knew where our food came from. Today, we have no idea for the most part.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Yeah, you know, unfortunately our kids are the ones that are inheriting our environment these days. And so that’s what’s so important about the research that you’re doing, and unpacking and really creating a system of understanding, a really intelligent approach to managing not just Lyme disease, but really just general health and living on the planet these days. And so thank you so much, Dr. Lindsley, you’re amazing. I can’t wait to give you a big hug in a couple of weeks at the convention, and super, super excited to have you on today, you really gave us so much information, and thank you for all of your research and your hard work. You’re amazing.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Yeah, thank you.

Robby Besner PSc.D.

All right guys, stay tuned, we got some more and more great episodes coming up in our Lyme series, and Dr. Lindsley you’re a superstar, all star, thank you for joining us today, and have an awesome, awesome day. Appreciate you.

Dr. Allan Lindsley

Thank you!

Robby Besner PSc.D.

Hey, everybody, it’s Robby Bessner, thanks so much for joining us today. Please share this content with anyone that you think might benefit from it, and we’re looking forward to having you with us tomorrow for another great interview.