Mold Illness in Chronic Lyme Disease

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so I have my own health challenge that started 24 years ago. It’s kind of funny to have you interviewing me when we’ve known each other probably for 12-plus years and I think of you as a mentor, and so this is kind of a fun turning of the tables. But I became ill about 24 years ago here in Northern California. I had had a tick bite. That was a known exposure but really didn’t think much about Lyme disease. I spent 16 hours a day in bed with terrible neurological pain, these head to toe burning sensations, every other imaginable symptom, gut issues, fatigue, balance issues. I’d have to prop myself up to not fall out of a chair or feel like I was gonna fall out of bed at night. And so really had a really system-wide kind of meltdown at that time and didn’t have any real understanding of what the issue was. I had seen 45 practitioners. Eight years later, after seeing multiple MBs, MDs, lots of referrals to psychiatrists, given that people are often so invalidated with these conditions.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And so this all started in April of 1997. In July of 2005 I was actually sent by another medical doctor to an acupuncturist who did electroacupuncture according to Voll. He said, go find out what food you should be avoiding and then stop eating those foods. That’s the only thing we can think of that could possibly be wrong with you. And that acupuncturist, after about two hours of doing this electrodermal energy medicine-type screening, she said, “I actually think you need “to have your doctor test you for Borrelia, “Bartonella, Babesio and Ehrlichia,” all of which at that point were relatively new to me. I mean, I had come across them in researching my prior diagnoses of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, but didn’t really know a lot about Lyme disease at that point. And so we were able to confirm those microbial issues, based on other more conventional testing. 

As you know, none of the testing is great so we had to repeat some of them. That got me really interested in Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt’s work and energy medicine and autonomic response testing and so on. And so he really became a primary mentor of mine at that time. And it was also around that same time in 2005, that Ritchie Shoemaker’s book, “Mold Warriors” was released. And so I had the diagnosis of Lyme disease in July, 2005. I picked up that book, “Mold Warriors”, in December of 2005. And it really took me some time to explore the mold piece. At that point, I really felt like I had a pretty clear understanding of what was wrong, finally having the Lyme and co-infection-type diagnoses. The issue of mold was one that I was aware of from the perspective of living in an apartment at that time that had pipes that had broken and air conditioning that had leaked into a closet and visible mold that was growing. 

But there really wasn’t a voice out there at that time that was saying, hey, this can actually cause health problems in humans. And so I think a debt of gratitude to Ritchie Shoemaker for being the first voice that I came across that really said, “Hey, this is a significant issue.” And so I worked with several practitioners then to start exploring things further. 15 years ago, our understanding of this condition, which is now called CIRS or Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, was really still in its infancy. After I got his book, then in 2006, 2007, I started exploring it further, started doing some testing, and started doing ERMIs. I started doing–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

By the way, that’s when we met at the AKM in 2006 when I went there to meet with Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker at that time and that’s when it all, when we met. ‘Cause I was impressed, there weren’t a lot of patients who showed up to AKM meetings.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah. Yeah, I really enjoyed going to the meetings. So 2006, 2007, we were still exploring things like immunoglobulins to see if somebody may have an allergy to mold. The ERMI test was available. And so in 2007, it became clear that mold was a piece of the puzzle for me, but how large a piece at that point was still not really clear. I did eventually get confirmation that the environment was not safe for my recovery. I broke my lease. I moved within a couple of months in 2008. And I would say at this point, my perspective really is that mold is probably, or was probably the bigger issue in terms of my ability to recover from Lyme. I feel like the mold exposure may have also been what kind of set the stage for me to not be able to deal with those Lyme infections. And so I really urge people that are dealing with chronic Lyme, which is very real, to prioritize making sure that the external environment is safe and optimal for our recovery. There’s so many different connections to mold that people often don’t think about.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, and just looking back at your symptoms, the amount of vestibular, the amount of balance and brain issues that you had is something that would now, you know, retrospectoscope would now make us put the mold possibility, the mycotoxin issue higher because that’s the kind of, that really is a toxic flavor.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Right, yeah, and things like the internal vibrations, the internal tremors that you can’t really see. I mean, we know now that those are primarily mold and, or Bartonella, both of which were factors that I was dealing with. And so I agree, there were a lot of clues that it just took time to have people like Dr. Shoemaker and yourself and others to bring this information out so we could start kind of connecting the dots back to the mold piece.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Just an aside, what’s amazed me as I’ve been doing this summit, is realizing that we were treating, I mean, one of the first things I was exposed to even in the 1980s was Dr. Crook’s book about candida. And I’ve mentioned this several times, because I’m kind of kicking myself, is that why I didn’t put the pieces together sooner? ‘Cause we saw what candida could do and obviously candida was what we identified, ’cause in those days people weren’t as aware of as many other molds that could be causing problems. But it’s just interesting that that was there and the symptoms were there, and yet, I like to think I put everything together, but we didn’t.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I actually love that you say candida because that was years ago, I wrote an article on candida with Dr. Warren Levin, who was an expert on candida.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And he was very clear with me that the pronunciation is candida and yet everyone says candida. And so I kind of defaulted to saying candida, because when you say candida, people look at you like you’re not knowledgeable about the topic.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Well, who knows. I mean, I’ve had people get very upset about how people say things. I remember one young lady lashed out at an ILADS meeting because someone said Lymes instead of Lyme disease. Yeah, what we call it is important. But anyway, getting back to the mold, I mean, how important it is to keep the mold possibility. Don’t forget about the mycotoxins. And what were the other parts of the experiences that you had that pointed you towards mycotoxins, or what pushed you in that direction?

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

So I think at the time it was primarily Dr. Shoemaker’s book. It was the ERMI testing. It was then having had that visual confirmation of mold in my living environment, which is fairly uncommon. Most people that have mold issues don’t actually see it. I actually saw it and there were several mold issues and leaks and water intrusions and things. Just didn’t have that concept that that could lead to health challenges. And then again, we also had done some immunoglobulin-based testing, which is not a test or biotoxin illness, as you’d know, but can be a clue for this person is having an immune response or maybe an allergy to mold, and so all of that started kind of fitting together along with some of the explorations I was doing at the time with Dr. Klinghardt and that’s what led us to really exploring the mold piece in addition to obviously the Lyme and co-infections and dental cavitations and EMF mitigation. 

I mean, as you know, it’s a very long list of things that need to be explored. But I do think that people spend a lot of time and money and experience a lot of suffering treating Lyme disease when they have not explored the potential for mold. I feel like it’s kind of like salmon swimming upstream, and you really need to do that first. You need to make sure that the environment that you’re living in, working in, going to school in, driving in potentially is supportive of your health. And that mold piece and the soup of things that we get exposed to in toxic environments has a very significant effect on our health. And so many of these connections come back to mold and we can talk about those more as well.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, no, and thank you ’cause the toxin issue, I remember back in the early 2000s when I first really started treating Lyme is that we, Dr. Anderson and I would talk a lot about the need to detox. And we would do it but it was still a lot of talk and not enough doing. And over the years we’ve just seen that the toxin load is usually what’s underneath why people have chronic Lyme disease, is because the reason that the Infectious Disease Society of America gives ILADS or those of us who believe in chronic Lyme so much difficulty is there are so many folks who Lyme is a minor infection. You get it, your body takes care of it, so they’re not crazy but they negate the millions of people who Lyme is a defining event in their lives. 

But it’s the underlying toxins and the overlying. And I think one way I look at it, it’s the underlying toxins and the overlying mold. Because mold seems to be what’s on top. I’ve mentioned this before, I would get upset when we went through a period of time, you were probably around for that, when everybody said you had to treat Babesio first. And yeah, sometimes, but also because Babesio actually has a toxin that it gives off so that could probably be a good part of the reason. But when it comes to those things, it’s clinical presentation that helps you choose what bug to choose to treat first. But when it comes to mold and mycotoxins, it’s almost always on the top. If you don’t deal with that, you’re not gonna get far.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I mean, I think it really comes back to some of the elders that we can look back to like Pasteur and Beauchamp, saying, is it the bug, is it the terrain? And I think it’s pretty clear to me that it really is the terrain and we can treat chronic Lyme and Borrelia, Bartonella, Babesio, we can treat those with hammers and use antimicrobials that are really intense. It hasn’t been my experience and I haven’t seen it be the experience of many people that that then leads to long-term improvement that is stable and persistent if they have not also done something to shift the terrain in a more positive direction that is less hospitable to these organisms being present.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes, that is it. I mean, that’s where those of us who entered the field from what I call regular medicine, from conventional medicine, have often walked into the wall with patients not realizing that it’s the toxins that have to be dealt with. The body may actually deal with the bugs when you clean up the external and internal environment. And I said the last five years working with Dr. Parpia, that I’ve seen it in motion. ‘Cause like I said, we’ve talked about detox and we would do it, but we would do it while we were treating and didn’t realize that sometimes you can just take a year to do the detox or even two, and then there’s not as much to treat and it’s smoother. But just, while we talking about treatment, you mentioned a bunch of other cofactors that I know you’ve been involved with such as the EMF and have you found that to dance along in your situation, along with the mold? Has one improved as the other has or have they been separate issues?

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so I think maybe to answer your question, I’m gonna tie it into some of the connections that I see when the mold conversation is what we’re talking about. So to your point, I would say probably the biggest is the immune dysregulation that mold creates. And once we’re exposed to mold, that really opens the door for other infections, for parasites, for Lyme disease, for co-infections.

I don’t think we can manage those infections effectively when we have this immune distraction or dysregulation, or the immune system is consumed by or confused by our external environment on a daily basis. So I rarely see people with difficult chronic Lyme disease that don’t eventually discover mold in their history. And whether that is that the mold came first and set the stage for Lyme, or maybe they had Lyme and co-infections for 30 years but they were never symptomatic until they got into a moldy environment because then their immune system was distracted, confused, dysregulated, and could no longer managed those infections. So I think that immune dysregulation piece is a big part of the puzzle. Extending on the immune dysregulation, now mast cell activation syndrome is a major topic over the last, maybe, five years into the Lyme and coinfection and mold community. 

I think mold is one of the biggest triggers for mast cell activation syndrome, for histamine intolerance. That’s become a really big topic. And I think there is value in mast cell stabilizers and antihistamines. But we can throw those things at the problem all day and it may help with some symptom management, but we need to also focus on the bigger issue, which is removing the triggers. And so removing mold from the environment, addressing the parasites, addressing or mitigating or reducing the EMF exposure, I think those play a major, major role in dealing with the mast cell activation and resulting immune dysregulation. We talked about the terrain, so we know it’s not just about the bug. If we have to really focus on our detox capacity. and if we think about a bucket, essentially, that is full from all of these different components and we develop symptoms when that bucket is overflowing, what’s in our bucket? And I think quite commonly mold is a major, major piece of what’s in that bucket that then is overflowing, leading to symptoms, and that then has to be a major piece of the treatment process to really adequately detoxify mold and other materials that lead to an unhealthy, toxic terrain and more dis-ease, essentially. 

And coming back to the question about EMFs, I do think that’s a very critical piece of the process. I have been in a Faraday cage in my sleeping environment since 2006. The first exposure that I had to Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt, I have the silver lined cloth, I have the demand switch to turn off the circuit breakers at night, I minimize all of that WiFi, cell phones, all of that as much as possible. But if we look at Dr Klinghardt’s playbook, we know that mold in a building is worsened in terms of the threat or the response from the EMF. So they’re putting out more mycotoxins, more defensive mechanisms when we have those EMS in our environments. And I don’t think that that is limited to the organisms that are in our external environment. 

I think there is, to some degree that same process happening internally, that the microbes within us are also threatened by all of these electromagnetic frequencies that are not really biologically compatible with ourselves. And so the EMF piece, I think, is another major piece of the puzzle. Why has mold illness really exponentially grown over the last many years and is it buildings? Sure, but could it also be the exponential increase in all of these EMFs that we’re exposed to? So if you were to ask Dr. Klinghardt, what’s the first thing that he’s going to suggest if you’re in a moldy environment? He’s gonna say, the first thing you need to do is turn off your WiFi.

So I do think that for many reasons, the EMF piece also has to be explored. We believe that the body has a much more difficult time in detoxifying in the presence of EMFs. That essentially, the cells are in a sort of sympathetic dominance or feeling threatened by the EMFs. And I think this is very easily observed now when you take someone and you put them in these canopies, these EMF-reduced, or almost EMF-free environments and they have significant detox reactions just from having that external influence taken away. So that is a piece of the puzzle. If we’re working on the terrain, we really do have to, again, change or improve our external environment from a mold and EMF perspective.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

We just wanna interject when you hit a really important point, is that what people often fail to realize is that when you’ve been ill for a long time, your energy is suppressed internally. Your mitochondria turned down, long story, we could make it short, just your energy is low and you don’t take out the garbage. You don’t clean up the environment much. You’re in survival mode. So when this danger signal improves a little bit, you begin to clean up the environment internally. And if your detox pathways are gummed up or your liver or kidney or skin, whatever organ is needed to get rid of that particular toxin is not optimal, you might have your symptoms flare. I think what I urge people to do is to always take symptom flare as information but not value. 

Because sometimes it means, yes, you step where you shouldn’t step. And sometimes it just means that you step where you need to go, you just have to do it less and more gently. And that is really important because I hate to see people who just become, I can understand they’ve been suffering for so long that more suffering is scary. But you have to evaluate what caused it. And if it’s something that really is positive, think that this might be a healing response, reaction. It’s the old story, in the old days people kept throwing themselves, I call it throwing yourself into the wall, tolerating these supposed hertzes that we now realize are toxin and mast cell predominantly and it’s nothing about your body’s healings. But just watch closely.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really good point. I mean, you’re talking essentially about the cell danger response, right, and the whole mitochondrial piece that when the system is threatened that a lot of the normal detoxification and other things aren’t really happening. I do think that mold is a major, major piece of this puzzle. For many people it’s probably right in the middle of the puzzle. It’s kind of a core thing that they need to look at to regain their health. And it’s interesting, people ask me a lot of times, how long does it take to recover from chronic Lyme disease? And I would say the clock really never starts ticking if you have an ongoing daily mold exposure. I don’t think you really started moving towards wellness in a significant lasting way until you’ve addressed those environmental influences.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes, you’re absolutely right. You might make a few steps forward, but you always will slide back. And it’s, yeah, that is the failure, I think, of the medical approach that chronic Lyme disease is an infection. Acute Lyme disease is an infection. Chronic Lyme disease is your body’s response to the acute infection. And that’s complicated and exactly what you’ve been talking about, the mold, the EMF, the other toxins in your environment. We didn’t talk about the emotional aspects. We’ll save that for another day. We’re kind of keeping on, but yeah, that too should not be made light of is that your system can stay locked up for lots of different reasons.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And coming back to your comment about detoxification, I’m really surprised how few people in the community of practitioners understand the concept of drainage, right, looking at things like the remedies from Pekana or as DesBio or Energetix. And the extracellular matrix is such a huge part of this conversation if you think of it as a sponge in the body that we need nutrients to move through to get into the cells and we need toxins to move through to get out of the cells and eventually be excreted. There aren’t a lot of tools that I think of outside of drainage that are really kind of supporting that matrix. And so a good detoxification program needs to also have that drainage support, which for the most part, in my mind, comes from the German homotoxicology and the homeopathic remedies like those from Pekana which can just be .

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And again, it goes to the dominance that the medical model has had. And it’s this failure to be willing to see what we can’t see easily. The connective tissue, that space in the body that has long been ignored, the fascia and the matrix, okay, is something that doctors did not pay attention to. I mean, the idea that fascia is important in osteopathy is key, but in regular medicine, ignored, just damage. I mean, they act as though like it’s just an extra. So anyway, but getting to your point is that the charge, I mean, it’s the electrical charge. And I would love to get Dr. Paula to talk a little bit. 

Because one of the things that we have in our head of how the body works often controls what we do as physicians. And until you realize that the cells are gels, okay, not liquid, but gels, and they operate on just subtle movements of proteins, of protein configurations, which depending on charges, on the electrical charge, and that depends on the nutrients and the solutes that are there and toxins just change the soup. I mean, that wasn’t very scientific, but they just do. And when you change the concentration of chemicals in your cells, you change its ability to communicate with itself and with the neighboring cells. 

And then you get problems with detox. And where these remedies are so helpful is they’re working at subtle levels. They’re dancing with signals that involve light energy and electrical energy and these are all areas that if you’re waiting for the double-blind, placebo-controlled study to prove it to you, it might not happen so quickly. Because these are happening at levels that are subtle and are influenced by almost everything we use to test with. But we can tell you clinically that they make a huge difference. And if people don’t help, what do they call them? The emunctories?

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

The emunctories, yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

The naturopathic way of calling it. But if you don’t have your exits open and you move toxins, you’re just gonna recirculate them.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, and with that, Chris Shade and Kelly Halderman actually have talked a lot about how as toxins are moving from the liver into the bile, gallbladder into the small intestine, and hopefully eventually out bound with binders, for example, that if that’s not working, what some are calling phase 2.5 detox, that a lot of those toxins then get dumped back into the blood and we have then what we think is a Herxheimer reaction, but it may actually be that we’re just not getting good enough support for that whole detoxification process.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. Yes. On that note, I mean, you’ve been around this world for so long. The binders, do you have feelings or experiences or people you’ve interviewed have given you any, I’d love to hear some tips on what you think of the different binders?

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I do. And I can definitely give you some thoughts there. I was wondering if we could maybe talk about the testing options and then I’ll jump into jump into that piece as well?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Absolutely.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Because I’d love to hear what you’re finding helpful as well?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. yes. But yeah, so you can go either way. We have the time.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Okay, great.So from a testing perspective, that’s a common question. How do you test for mold illness? I would say we have to separate the environmental testing from the InBody testing. And so from an environmental perspective, if someone is self-testing, then we can do the ERMI from Micometrics or Envirobiomics, the Environmental Relative Moldiness Index. You can then calculate the HERTSMI-2 score from that, which is an algorithm that Dr. Shoemaker put together that can give you some sense of whether or not an environment is safe for your recovery. I think these have to be taken with a bit of a grain of salt. The numbers are not always telling the full story and so there can be an ERMI that looks really good and, in fact, it’s not a good environment, or one that looks like a relatively high number that actually might be a good environment. 

So Brian Karr, he has a podcast called “Mold Finders: Radio”. They talk about this a good deal in those conversations. But sometimes the self-testing, that exploration, lower costs, may be a way to get into 75% maybe in terms of is this an issue or not. In more recent times, RealTime Labs has what’s called the EMMA test, which looks at mold and mycotoxins also from the environment. And so I’m seeing more and more people using the EMMA test. I think that one of the things that I’ve heard rumored is that eventually, hopefully, we’ll be able to have the mold species on the EMMA test that would also allow for a calculation of the HERTSMI-2. And if that were to happen, I think the EMMA test could become the go-to in terms of the self-testing arena. I think that that test holds a lot of promise. Envirobiomics also does testing now for bacteria like actinomycetes, for example, that we think of mold illness, but really, mold illness is a much broader soup, as you mentioned, of many toxic things. And more recently, Dr. Shoemaker’s talking about that the actinomycetes that the bacteria that we are exposed to may even play more of a health negating role than the mold itself. 

So Envirobiomics has that ability to test for actinomycetes in the environment. Another option that some people are finding helpful is what’s called the ETA test which is a system that Terry Wright from pureairpurewater.com has put together. And it’s also looking more broadly. So looking at mold, but are there other VOCs, formaldehyde, other things that can be done to improve the environment from a health supporting perspective? If finances are not an issue, I think the best first step really is to get an IEP or indoor environmental professional that CIRS literate. You don’t wanna just get anybody, and unfortunately that happens. I was talking with a client recently that had very high levels of mycotoxins associated with Stachybotrys on urine mycotoxin testing. 

Someone came out, they did air sample testing. They said, “No, everything here is fine. “You don’t have an issue.” Well, there was a big issue and that was eventually discovered. But air sample testing is notoriously bad, particularly for Stachybotrys which does not stay hanging around in the air. So I would say an IEP is a great option if someone can do that, again, making sure that they’re CIRS literate. So most of the time I recommend people start by looking at iseai.com. It’s I-S-E-A-I.com which is the International Society for Environmentally Acquired Illness. And they have lists on their website of IEPs as well. I should correct, actually, I think it’s I S-E-A-I.org, not .com. They have lists there of indoor environmental professionals that are vetted to some degree, that understand mold illness is a real thing and they’re doing tests to help the patient, not tests to help the landlord or building owner. 

So I think those are really helpful from an environmental perspective. And then if we’re looking at in the body tests, we talked earlier about what were some of the things that I was looking at back in 2006, ’07? Well, we have the Shoemaker test like the Visual Contrast Sensitivity Test. We have C4A, TGF beta 1, MMP9, all of those. The problem with those is they’re not specific. So is it from mold, is it from Lyme, is it from something else? You don’t know. Now, I think they are helpful for tracking over time as you’re treating. Hopefully your TGF beta 1 is coming down. Hopefully your C4A is coming down. MMP9 has been correlated by some practitioners like Dr. Raj Patel and Dr. Thalia Hale to be a good indicator for mast cell activation syndrome.

So if you’re also dealing with the triggers of mast cell activation, maybe making some dietary changes of putting in some mast cell stabilizers and histamine-type things, is MMP9 coming down or not? So there is some value there, but it’s not a test you would run to say, oh, I have mold illness. And I think the other test that’s come on the scene in the last several years, it’s been around for a while now, is the urine mycotoxin testing. There is a lot of debate. 

I personally am in the camp that these tests can be very helpful. I’ve seen them be very helpful from my own experience of being in a building that had a water intrusion where I had had previously clean urine mycotoxin tests that then shot up, left that environment, worked with binders and other treatment and saw it really normalize. So I know there are people that suggest that the tests can be influenced by foods that you’re consuming that are high in molds or mycotoxins.The research has been limited to date, but in the small research that I have seen done, that doesn’t seem to be a likely significant contributor to these tests. If the levels are from food, primarily, they’re probably gonna be very low and they’re probably gonna be more ofer toxin rather than some of the trichothecenes and things along those lines. So I find that to be very helpful. 

I personally incorporate a urine mycotoxin test as part of my, what I think of as kind of an annual physical of, okay great. There’s lots of things I could go and do in a physical, but I should be looking at my urine mycotoxins. And if there is something there that I’m not expecting, did something in my environment change? So I think that is probably one of the more helpful tools. Again, interpretation can be tricky. Most commonly people do an initial test and the second test can be much higher, indicating potentially that they’re detoxifying more efficiently or effectively. So you don’t wanna get too worked up about the results without having a skilled practitioner in this realm interpret them and help you figure out what that might mean. The urine mycotoxin tests are primarily from RealTime Labs, Great Plains, Vibrant. I’ve had more experience with RealTime and Great Plains to date, but I think they all have value. 

I know Vibrant is expanding the number of mycotoxins they’re looking at. Both RealTime and Great Plains have done that as well over the last year or so. And then another test that could potentially be helpful is the Great Plains organic acids testing. So can we get some clues into the potential for colonization which we haven’t really talked much about, but when we get into the treatment conversation or how to support the body, we can talk about that. So I think the OAT test is also not a perfect test for does this person have colonization, but it’s another indicator that a knowledgeable CIRS-literate practitioner can use to say, well, it’s interesting that you have these fungal metabolites. Maybe we need to think of colonization treatment as well as part of your overall approach back to health. 

And then coming back to the conversation around, we say mold illness, but I think that what we’re looking at when we’re testing for mold and mycotoxins are really surrogate indicators for the soup that you mentioned and all of the things that we encounter in water-damaged buildings. When I first saw the list of things that is put out in part of Dr. Shoemaker’s research, it’s surprising to see things on there like protozoa, bacteria like mycoplasma and chlamydia. Those are really difficult to clear. I would say people have significant difficulties clearing mycoplasma, clearing chlamydia pneumoniae, for example. So could it be that we’re getting re-exposed to these bacteria in our moldy environment or to other protozoa, for example, along with all of the other microbial VOCs and some people jokingly call them mold farts? 

There’s all kinds of things that we’re getting exposed to. And so I think the easiest to measure and explore is mold and mycotoxins, but not forgetting that that really is an indication when positive that there’s a lot more going on in that environment. So it’s a complex problem. There’s no perfect solution. But I do feel like the tools that we’ve had over the past several years, maybe three to five years are continuing to evolve. And we have more tools now in this realm than we had 10 or 15 years ago. So I feel like it’s moving in a good direction. And what’s really nice is it feels to me like the speed at which things are continuing to improve and new solutions being introduced, that feels like it’s the fastest since I’ve been observing this whole chronic illness realm over the last 24 years now. It really gives us some hope that better tools are on the horizon and the tools that we have now are actually quite good compared to what we had in the past.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, things are getting better. I mean, we’re still not as specific as we’d like, that’s one of the things. The Sears testing, that was my argument 10 years ago ’cause we did a ton of it. I mean, we started doing as soon as he came out with them in the early 2000s we were doing VCS testing. And the idea that it was specific for mycotoxins just never made a lot of sense. I mean, it’s a toxin and for all those inflammatory markers, they were all markers that your innate immune system was being aggravated. But as you say, they’re still useful to follow because they can correlate with improvements, or at least in improvements and know that the therapies that we’re doing, even if we’re not getting 100% improvement in symptoms, that we’re doing something that’s useful.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I mean, I always have the same challenge with CD57 in the realm of Lyme disease. It seemed odd to me that God would put a Borrelia marker in as CD 57. And I think we’ve learned over time that that can be influenced by many things. Some people argue mold can affect it. Some people say chlamydia pneumoniae can affect it. And so it’s a potentially helpful tool, but is it leading us down a path towards resolution? In my experience, no.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

No. No. I agree with you. It’s something to look at. If it fits clinically, it’s good. But yeah, no, CD57s, again, it’s a marker that should be, that when you have a lot of inflammation in the tissue, that CD57 will often plummet because that’s where it’s going, into the tissue. So the area of immunology is just changing so rapidly in front of us that it’s really, a lot of our ideas have to be constantly modified. But getting back to the testing, I’ve always, as I said, I think these are all useful tests and I really like the way you’re clear that we can’t hang our hat on any one of them and plant the flag, this is it. Because you have a clean ERMI doesn’t mean you have a clean house. You really have to look at the whole picture. 

And then we’re gonna have actually, Dr. Shoemaker is gonna be on with us. We’re gonna spend an hour talking about the effects of all these other bugs in water-damaged buildings, because this is so important. And I’m glad that we’re gonna be able to, that there are people who are measuring these things. And especially the VOCs because, yeah. And actually, coming up to the other important issue is how much is allergy and maybe not even allergy, just immune irritation sparking mast cell reaction and how much is toxin? In fact, I’m gonna be talking with Ty Vincent later. That’s one of his big things. His LDI will help quiet your body’s response to the, quote, unquote, allergic or immune dysregulated response. 

It’s not gonna do anything for your toxins, but if we can get your body to stop making so much noise, again, you can clear things out a lot better. I mean, this is always the issue that I like people to realize is that using Band-Aids, which is what a lot of these mast cell treatments are, Band-Aids, will sometimes just allow the system to then function and then you won’t need the Band-Aid because once you’ve gotten rid of the toxins, the immune system is then working normally again and you won’t go into that immune flare, quote, unquote, allergy as easily. These things are circular and it’s hard because our brains are programmed to do, A causes B. They don’t do as well when it’s, you know, the serpent eating its tail. And that’s what your body is. It’s such an interactive system that A doesn’t just cause B. A causes 30 other things and they all feedback on each other and we go in there and think we know what we’re doing. 

But anyway, but getting back to the testing, I like the way you laid that out. It really is important to have people who know what they’re doing, doing your environmental testing. Because you will spend a lot of money and get very poor results if people do not understand the concepts that had been taught initially by Dr. Shoemaker and now a lot by ICI and the environmental medicine movement. If people do not understand these concepts, they will either tell you your house is safe or rip things out in a way that’s gonna get you sicker. So I think that’s really important that you brought that up, Scott.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And it’s interesting too when when you talk to Dr. Ty Vincent who I have tremendous respect for as well, and I agree that LDI can be helpful for that allergy piece. What I’m not sure of is whether or not LDI, I don’t think that LDI actually contains mycotoxins. I think it’s focused on the molds.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

At this point you are correct.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And it would be interesting to see because you mentioned that the toxin piece is not addressed with LDI, which I agree with, but we know that mycotoxins can also stimulate the immune system. There’s the MyMycoLab that we’ve talked about separately with Dr. Andrew Campbell which could potentially be helpful for some people. So it will be interesting to see what more could LDI do. If the mycotoxins were also part of the mix, could it also then calm some of that immune intolerance? And I don’t know the answer but maybe you can ask Dr. Vincent.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That is exactly what I thought of this morning. So great minds work alike, is that why not come out with a mycotoxin panel for the LDI? Because that is it. I mean, we’re dealing with these issues. Your body has multiple ways to respond to threat. And they all happen. And the more ways we can make your body feel safe, the easier it is for you to return to what we call health, which is be able to choose how you’ll respond to danger. That is it. I mean, like when we’re really neurotic, we take every raised eyebrow as a threat and it makes for a very difficult life. Well, when your immune system is doing that, it causes chronic illness.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Totally agree.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s what we’re all trying to do is find better ways to soothe us, soothe the system, make it feel safe. I mean, I said I just love that your experience, ’cause I said, there’s nothing like being a patient because no matter how many people we treat, that inner experience just solidifies something in your body about how to do this dance and what things really work. And I am just so glad to hear how important you have found the subtle therapies.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I mean, and we can jump into some of these things but I absolutely agree that for me and my experience, a lot of the things that most people wouldn’t really consider valid therapies have been some of the most helpful. So you asked about binders, so maybe I’ll jump in a little bit to how we might address mold illness or that broader soup of things? So I think the first thing is removing the exposure from the person or the person from the exposure, either remediating or moving, one or the other has to be done. If you listen to, based on Dr. Shoemaker’s work, 50 to 70% of the buildings in the US maybe have a mold issue. If you listen to some people like Brian Karr, who’s an IEP, they’ll say they probably can find mold in 95% or more. I mean, there aren’t mold-free environments.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

But you should be able to tolerate some of it though.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Sure.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I mean, until you get really sick and sensitive.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so I think because there are so many buildings that have mold that remediation can be a preferred first path, unless it’s a really significant issue. And so working with an IEP, working with the remediator. But I do see a lot of people that can remediate minimizing their exposure. Dr. Klinghardt takes issue with mold-free and says, mold for is what we’re looking for in an environment. And I think that mold for is a good way to say it.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I like that, yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I’ve said, in the Dr. Shoemaker protocol, I think there’s 11 steps from his original protocol, and I’ve always said that once you get away from the exposure you’re more than halfway there. And I really think that is true in terms of the effort and the difficulty and the stress and all of that. I feel like getting that exposure addressed is the largest part. So air filtration and fogging solutions are often discussed. I think they can be helpful. My opinion though is that they’re only helpful after the source is identified and removed. And so I think of it like having a cancerous tumor and leaving it behind in the body and then expecting to solve it entirely with chemotherapy. I think a much better approach is remove the tumor, then treat the person. And so air filters and propolis diffusers and things of that nature can help improve the environment, but I don’t think it’s gonna solve the problem. There are tons of good air filters on the market now. 

I think Blueair is one that I use. I have IQAir, Austin Air, Intellipure. But there’s so many good filters. I just don’t think we wanna become falsely secure in thinking our environment is not contributing to our illness because we went and bought an air filter. That’s probably not enough for this population of people that are affected by Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. If the person cannot fix the environment or move and there’s financial constraints and other things, which certainly are real, I think adding an air filter can help. But I think of it as Raj Patel would say, drying off with a towel in the shower and forgetting that you left the water on. It’s not gonna quite get you where you wanna go. Or you have a hole in the boat and the boat is filling up with water and you’re trying to bail it out with a paper towel. That’s essentially what we’re doing by putting in air filters and not really solving the problem. 

So we solve that problem with the environment, we improve it. The next step then is binders, which you were talking about, detoxification support. So I think once we have eliminated the exposure, we then work to get the mycotoxins and other toxins out of the body. And without binders, most of the toxins that are concentrated into bile and dumped from the gallbladder into the small intestine are reabsorbed through enterohepatic recirculation. So you can have an exposure to a water-damaged building from five years ago that still is contributing to your health challenges even if your environment now is perfect, in part, because you could still be circulating toxins. Another piece that we’ll talk about is the colonization aspect. That could be another explanation.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh, yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

But the binders are really helping to minimize reabsorption as much as possible. And so you asked about some of my favorites? Personally, I do like the Micro Formulas Bioactive Carbon BioTox. It’s also known as CellCore BioTox and Binder. I personally take that every day because I’ve had mold illness three different times and I think it’s an ongoing focus of making sure that any exposures to mycotoxins are being supported. I like the Tox-Ease Bind from Beyond Balance.I’m a big fan of the Takesumi Supreme from Supreme Nutrition. I think it’s also very broad. These tools are very broad. It’s not that they’re focused just on mold or mycotoxins. I love it when new companies come out with, companies come out with new tools in this realm. 

So Research Nutritionals, who I think has a fantastic reputation. They just came out with one called MicoPul, which is a humic, fulvic, but also has chitosan as well as a Zeolite that I have found helpful in the past, which is called G-PURE Zeolite. And then they combine that with silica and carbon. So that’s a new tool that literally has been out just in the last couple of months. Bentonite clay is a common go-to for people, but I would say you want to make sure that the company you’re getting the clay from has had it tested for heavy metals, because some clays can be contaminated which is then moving in the wrong direction. I think then beyond the binders, there are companies that have created tools that can help with the detoxification or excretion of mycotoxins. I like the ProMyco product from Beyond Balance. 

And I like to pair that with one of the binders that we talked about. Liposomal Glutathione can certainly be helpful for people in this realm, particularly with ochratoxin. However, if you listen to the work that’s been put out by Dr. Neil Nathan and Beth O’Hara and Emily Givler, most mycotoxins are not removed via glutathione. Most of them are primarily detoxified using glucuronidation. So supporting glucuronidation is another tool that I think can be helpful. Calcium d’glucarate, for example. I personally every day take a product that Beth O’Hara and Bob Miller formulated called Glucuronidation Assist to continue to deal with any mycotoxins, exposures from mold, those types of things. And I also think that when we’re thinking about glucuronidation, then we have to think about coming back to the microbiome. Because if we have a dysbiotic microbiome that is leading to elevated levels of beta-glucuronidase, that’s essentially undoing what’s happening with glucuronidation. 

And so you’re kind of working in the wrong direction. And so we also need to think about if someone has high levels of beta-glucuronidase, do we need to address the microbiomes so that other things we’re doing to more efficiently support glucuronidation are actually working better? And then I also am a fan of, if we look at detoxifying mycotoxins and other toxins, there is certainly a major place for lipid replacement, looking at Patricia Kane’s work. There is a lab that I recently did some testing from called IGL in Germany, that after 20 years of detoxification being a major focus for me, I still had alternaria mycotoxins in my cells. And so some of those therapies where you’re using oral and, or IV things like phosphatidylcholine, sodium thenaluterate and so on, I think that can help detoxify. I don’t think it’s the place to start though. I think,No. You need to do a lot of the basic things first and then that can help us get more deeply.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s something we have learned the hard way. Basically, you need to make sure the trace minerals and the background materials are there and the organs of elimination are working well, otherwise it’s a good way to flare people. I mean, that’s something that you learn by doing.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

No, I totally agree with that. And I would say many people implementing binders, getting the source of the exposure addressed, I think many people will make significant progress. But then there are those people, and I would say I was one in that category, where Mycotoxins are still coming out of the body and needs to run mycotoxin tests at levels that really are not likely to be related to food exposure. And so that’s where the colonization conversation comes in. And I would say that was really first put out by Dr. Joe Bruller, Dr. Neil Nathan, by your team, certainly. And so that colonization piece is really important. Looking at primarily the sinuses, but also the gut, various tools that are natural options, pharmaceutical options. But just because you don’t have an ongoing exposure doesn’t mean you’re not still potentially creating mycotoxins internally in the body. And so I think that’s an important piece to think about is the external environment is great, but are you still creating mycotoxins? And so from a sinus perspective, I like things like Argentyn 23 or propolis nasal sprays or Super Good Stuff has one called Nasal Wash.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. Yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

That’s a good one. Keith Morey has got some great tools there.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

It is. It is. It is. Yes. Yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And then I would also say that I’ve started thinking about this more from the perspective of also not just killing, killing, killing, but is there a sinu-biome? Just like we work on the microbiome by taking prebiotics and probiotics, can we use something like MegaSporeBiotic in the sinuses or products like Sure Sinus that have Lactobacilli Sakei and other types of beneficial organisms. That again, it’s not always about kill, kill, kill, but it’s about balancing, integration, tolerance and so on.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Restoring the lipid, I mean, after we have treated the nose and the nasal passage and the sinuses, have to make sure we’re not overdrying them and restoring some of the lipid balance along with the probiotics is really important. So let’s keep going, you’re on a roll.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so then if we think about the systemic antifungal support, I think there are some great tools like Pau D’Arco, Pau D’Arco tea. Cistus tea actually has some antifungal properties as well, so I think that could be great. A number of people like essential oils. I’ve become drawn to, Microbiome Labs has one called MegaMycoBalance that I think is a good tool for helping to support the balance of the molds and fungus in the body. It’s a mix of propolis and the same ingredient that’s in another product people might know as Thorne SF 722.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

So combine Undecylenic Acid

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Caprylic acid.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s an oldie but goodie.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so the Microbiome Labs has has combined that with propolis and I really like that product. Beyond Balance has one called Mycoregen. Byron White has called A-FNG.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

A-FNG.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

And then some people may benefit from, and I certainly have used some of this over the years, but things like Itraconazole or Sporanox as well. And then thinking about, do we need to support the biofilms? Are some of these organisms hidden in biofilms such that we’re not gonna get it then until we also start breaking down these biofilm colonies? I think that plays a role. And once we’ve done the basics, there are also companies that have homeopathics in the mold and mycotoxins realm that I think can also be helpful if you’re looking at Pekana, for example, has Mucan. Energetix has a MycoCan-Chord. DesBio has MycoCombo. Professional Formulas has tools in this realm that both are working the molds, and separately, ones that are helping deal with mycotoxins. And so sometimes those more targeted homeopathic tools, people think of homeopathy is as a weak intervention that doesn’t really do a lot. That’s not been my experience at all. I think they’re actually amazing, particularly when we’re talking about drainage and detoxification.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. When it comes to those, it truly is your body. I mean, when they work, yes, ’cause they reset the information. They give your body information that it then shifts with. But if it’s not on the right channel, it doesn’t work. And I think that’s where people have trouble is that it takes a fine ear to pick the right tune for you.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Absolutely, the right treatment for the right person at the right time.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

It’s really important.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Research Nutritionals a few years ago came out with their Transfer Factor Enviro. So coming back to your point about how do we support the immune system and help to kind of clear up some of that dysregulation and confusion? I think the Transfer Factor that’s targeted more for mold has a lot of potential as well. Getting away from the exposure, working with binders and detox, thinking about colonization, I think those are the primary issues when we’re talking about CIRS or biotoxin illness. But then coming back to the point that you brought up, another piece that I would say many people in the biotoxin illness realm don’t think about is mold allergy. And they are not the same and someone can have both allergy and biotoxin illness. 

I think when we’re getting into the realm of mold allergy, then things like sublingual immunotherapy, or what’s called SLIT. LDI or LDA you mentioned can be fantastic as well. I think homeopathy plays a role here to kind of create more tolerance and integration. So that mold allergy piece, in fact, even things like NAETE or BioSet or things in the energetic realm could also potentially help a bit with that tolerance and integration when we’re talking about mold allergy. Homeopathics, for sure, helpful as well. So I think that’s a piece that maybe isn’t emphasized enough in this community that that could play a role for many people.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, I mean, anytime you have people who start developing diffuse reactions, you should always think that allergy is playing a role. And I said it, fixing it doesn’t make them all better, but it allows the system to work. It’s just, yeah, I’ll say it again and again, each piece, each pickup stick we remove has a better chance that then the system is going to get back to its own balance. I mean, the beauty of working on people versus working on cars is that you work on cars, you gotta get it exactly right. People, you just gotta get close. Your body does heal. It wants to heal. I mean, that’s where it wants to go. It just needs a little help. And sometimes the biggest help is removing the blocks.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

100% agree, 100%, so important. Yeah, and so the last part then of the supportive or treatment approach that comes to my mind is potentially the most important once you’ve addressed the environmental exposures. And so what I’m gonna talk about now is, I think, still based on a platform or a foundation of environmental awareness. I’m not suggesting that you do these things and ignore everything else that we just talked about. But when we get into, do we feel safe in the world, and it’s not always conscious, oh yeah, I feel safe. I can go out and go to Safeway or whatever. 

No, it’s do you subconsciously, do you limbically feel safe? And if we’re talking about the limbic system as the alarm center, and maybe at one time you did have mold in your living environment and your limbic system, the amygdala, the hypothalamus, the hippocampus perceived that mold as a tiger, you’ve now had your environment remediated. And now essentially what happens is instead of it being a tiger that’s really threatening to you, it’s more like the kitten outside the window. Maybe there’s some little bit here and there and yet your limbic system is setting off the alarm for perceived threats, not for actual threats. And so that’s where tools like Annie Hopper’s DNRS, which I personally did an hour a day for seven months almost three years ago, and I still have lasting positive benefits from doing it. The Gupta Program from Ashok Gupta is another tool. And so I find these tools to be amazing. 

There is a lot of resistance to them. They do require someone take an active role in their healing process. If someone is not able to or at the point where they can cognitively manage doing DNRS or the Gupta Program, Frequency-Specific Microcurrent is another tool here that can be amazing. And so FSM even as a little bit broader in that we can support the limbic system. But the other piece of this that’s tied into the limbic system is also the vagus nerve. And so that’s where we can use things like Stanley Rosenberg’s exercises from “Accessing the Healing Power of the Vagus Nerve”, for example, but we can also use Frequency-Specific Microcurrent. 

So I’m a big fan of Dr. Carolyn McMakin’s work, Frequency-Specific Microcurrent. In fact, I know you are as well because my first exposure to FSM was at your office with Julie Galvan about 10 or 12 years ago. And so that is a tool that I now have at home and use regularly and people can work with a practitioner to program it to sit down at night and let’s work on the limbic system, work on the vagus nerve, work on the parasympathetic nervous system. But tools in this realm to help recalibrate or as our friend Dr. Neil Nathan terms it, reboot.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Reboot, yes. 

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Reboot that system so that it says, oh, it’s just a kitten. I don’t need to have that same stress response as though there’s a tiger. So I’ve been super, super impressed with these tools. Time and time again people were having what I would say, almost miraculous responses to being in bed, tolerating only five foods, starting one of these DNRS or Gupta program and three months later being out of bed, having essentially no reactions to foods, going on vacation with their family. I mean, it’s really impressive. But again, you still need to work on the actual environmental platform as well.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, I have been very impressed with what the DNRS and the Gupta tools. We have to create a world where people understand there are a lot of paths. And have faith that you’re gonna find the set of paths that you need. I mean, when you’re mildly ill, rest, then you get better. As you get sicker, you need to jump through a few more hoops unfortunately. And again, it’s self-correction and it takes time. Your body learns patterns and unlearning takes time but that is clear.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

The maybe other message I would like to put out is that I don’t think that a person’s ability or potential to recover from mold illness is tied to their genetics. In my own experience, my genetics are some of the worst if you look at the HLA-DRs and the multi susceptible, and I won’t even use the word that has been used because I think that takes hope away from people. But I have one of those genes HLA-DR4 and while I still take very good care of myself, I’ve done incredibly well. So I think we need to think about that as more epigenetics, what are we doing stress wise, emotions as you mentioned, good nutrition, finding joy, getting rid of toxic people, all of those things. 

But I think it’s important for people to not have a condition like mold illness and think that they can’t get better because they’re broken or because their genes are going to limit them. And I would say that many practitioners, in fact, most or all of the practitioners that I’ve spoken with do not seem to see correlations between the person’s potential for recovery and their HLA genetics. There may be a correlation to the potential for developing the conditions, but I want people to come away with a message that that does not limit your potential for recovery.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yeah. The 4352B, I mean, it’s there, it can make life a little more complicated, but it is not a sentence. It is not like ’cause you have it you’re in trouble, absolutely not. I mean, I forget which one, I’m homozygous for one of the mold things. And I had Lyme and Bartonella like 10 years ago and thankfully mold doesn’t bother me. So these are not, yeah, they’re hints. The contribution was to show us how common the tendency towards reactivity to mold, but it’s not a one-for-one. It’s just one piece in a system that will develop that can cause you to become very sensitive to mold toxins, okay. But it is not, the trick, it is not the only piece. It’s just one piece in a mechanism. And that’s what people really have to understand about genetics in general is that there are very few genes that are involved in illnesses past the age of 10 or 10 years old that are one or two or three genes. Almost everything, there’s a handful of them that are one or two or three genes. Everything else that we deal with is hundreds of genes interacting. We might find some dominant ones, but they’re not destiny.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, I mean, I would argue more than genes affecting your potential for developing mold illness, that mold exposure is influencing your genetic expression.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Because, I mean, that is the point is that these genes, I mean, the epigenetics are how we modulate gene expression and that depends on what your cells are seeing. If your cells are seeing, quote, unquote, dangerous signals, they then start transcribing or turning on genes that are gonna try to protect you and cause inflammation and make you feel bad temporarily. But if you don’t know how to turn them off, you stay feeling bad. But anyway, so it’s a complex system. It’s not one gene. One gene is rarely destiny, especially in adults. So Scott, this was a lot of fun.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I know, I loved reconnecting with you.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That last 10 minutes I was gonna say, wow, that is just a work of art because it’s just dancing with the different tools that we have and knowing that there are so many companies and they’re really striving now more and more to be creative and come up with solutions for what’s going on. And also, the testing companies, they are coming up. I still wish they would do more, spend more money on studies. I think that’s one of my only sadnesses. But I understand is that it’s often very expensive, but still, I think we’re often operating blind or just our collective experience when we should have at this point in time in this field, the companies who are benefiting should be spending more money on research. But that would involve getting the doctors involved and getting them to spend their time and money. So it’s not easy and I hope that we can get out. I know there was a small study and I’m hoping that we can get the data out one of these days on the effects of food and the urine mycotoxin test, ’cause I think it’s important. This study was small but I think it’s strong enough to say that it is not an overwhelming issue. If you’re coming back 10 times the upper limit of normal, it’s not from what you ate.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I think there was an article at least that was written about that in the “Townsend Letter” for people that want to explore that a bit further. But I agree with you.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I don’t think they published it. I was understand the impression that they didn’t publish the full dataset. But hopefully that’s there. That would be really important because this is something that has been percolating for years and I think has confused a lot of us. But it’s really not foods. The thing that’s confusing is as you said, is that it can very well be that we are colonized and that’s where another long talk which you started on, I think that’s probably one of the biggest issues for people who stay chronically ill after they move is the colonization. But anyway, this has been amazing fun and educational. I always learn something when I listen to you.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Again, it’s kind of funny because you’ve been one of my mentors for many years so it’s an honor to converse with you today.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Really, really, but you’ve done a lot of work. And that’s what I’m really impressed with. Not many people have put in the time and effort that you have to learn and to share. So thank you so much, Scott. It’s really been a pleasure.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Yeah, so.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Or you can keep going.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Okay. Yeah. So I was just gonna leave them a few more resources.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh yeah, please.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I would say if people are looking for additional resources, I have done a number of podcasts on these topics. So Dr. Jill Crysta, Dr. Sandeep Gupta, Dr. Raj Patel, Dr. Neil Nathan. So those are available to listen to on iTunes or on my website. And then there are some great courses. Dr. Sandeep Gupta from Australia, he’s a medical doctor. He put together the “Mold Illness Made Simple” course. It’s very, very detailed. I know Brian Karr has the “Mold Finders Method” as well. Dr. Jill Crysta, who’s just a fantastic resource in this realm has an online course that’s geared for practitioners which is fantastic if you’re a practitioner getting into 

this realm and really wanna understand it, I would highly recommend her course. Her book is called “Break the Mold”. Dr. Neil Nathan’s book, “Toxic”, is another great tool.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I was gonna mention that. I think Neil’s book was a landmark in clarity and laying out for people how to begin to approach chronic illness.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I wish I had it 20 years ago.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, Neil’s ability to lay out information in a way that people can really learn is truly special.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

I agree, love him. He’s been an amazing mentor as well. And then I recommend that people join the ICI, the International Society for Environmentally Acquired Illness. They do have different membership levels that fit every practitioner, lay person that you can get involved in that. They are also starting to do some research projects. Dr. Mary Ackerley now is heading up their research position and working on various projects which I think is great to see that happening. They have an annual conference which is very, very informative as well. And then I would say really just to wrap up, if someone is dealing with chronic Lyme, I think the top priority is ruling out mold illness, making sure your environment is safe for your recovery. 

I could’ve spent a lot of time, a lot of years, a lot of money if I understood that concept when I was early in my health exploration. I think it is unfortunately very common that people really want to avoid looking at mold, that they come up with ways to rationalize not doing it because it seems overwhelming. But I would argue that progress will likely be elusive without exploring the mold piece. And progress will almost certainly be accelerated if you do. So I know it can feel overwhelming. I think the key is to not let that overwhelm keep us from taking the next step and putting one foot after the other. I think it’s important that we don’t lose hope. And as Dr. Klinghardt often says, “The only way out is through.” So know that there is light at the end of the tunnel and people do get through this.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Well, thank you Scott. It has really just been great. Blessings and look forward to talking to you more. Okay. Bye-bye.

Scott Forsgren, FDN-P

Thank you, Dr. Gordon. Bye-bye.