Neuroplasticity: Rehabilitate and Retrain Your Brain Post COVID

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yes, thank you very much. So, like many of us who are in this field, mine started with my own personal journey where I actually suffered from any or chronic fatigue syndrome. When I was studying at university and I had it, you know, pretty badly I’ve gone to India. Gotta stomach bug come back, and I thought that would be fine. Everything is going to be good. The stomach gradually went away, but it left a legacy which was myself. Just feeling more and more exhausted, couldn’t do basic things. I pick up a textbook and not be able to read the words on the page. You know, that’s how bad it got to the point of my worst days. You know, I was crawling to the bathroom. I had, like, literally no energy, and it was like a brick wall in front of me that suddenly I’m a young man. I’ve got my whole life ahead of me and I’d go and see the doctors and they would say, There’s nothing we can do for you. You’ve got this for life. We don’t know what causes it. We have no treatment for it. You’re on your own. And that, you know, trigger a lifelong quest for me to try and understand what causes these types of conditions and how we can get patients better. And so at that time, I’ve met a lot of other patients who are suffering from it. And, you know, we’re not being understood by the doctors and I made a promise with the universe. I said, If I can just get myself better, I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping others with this condition that the promise I made. And so my research Brain neurology, I research physiology. I researched so many different aspects of medicine, but especially the brain, and I worked out hypothesis as to what might be causing these types of conditions. I believe it’s in the brain and the unconscious brain, not in the mind but in the brain. And I managed to literally ad hoc retrain my brain. I got myself 100% better. And then I set up a clinic to treat others with the condition. And I also published several medical papers as I went through this research as well. So that’s really been my background, my journey.

Eric Gordon, MD

It’s amazing healing and one of the things you know, it’s so interesting how these what people would say. These random infections lead us down this path way because they’re triggers and the trigger different things in different people. But the final common pathway is this. What I see is the self-defense stance, How to protect yourself. And so if you could talk a little about how your program helps kind of open up, you know, let us get past self-defense and more into openness.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yes. And if I may, I’d like to. I always like to what I’m talking about the hypothesis and our program. I always like to start with the biggest question of all. Why are we here? I would love to have a deep philosophical chat with you about that, but let’s focus on the science. So from a scientific perspective, we’re here because over millions of years of evolution, this brain, this nervous system, this body through, you know, plants, single organisms, invertebrates, invertebrates, reptiles, mammals, human beings. It is adapted to its environment to ensure survival and from a scientific perspective, from a very purely scientific perspective, the genes want to replicate. 

They want to pass on their genetic, that genetic information on to the next generation. So this gives us a clue what causes these types of conditions, which is the our bodies care more about passing on the genes and survival than they do our well being. So survival is number one priority. Yeah, we’ve talked about the defense systems. So from an evolution biology perspective, this system is designed to survive and adapt to the environment. That’s a number one priority. And so a lot of these conditions. 

As you said, there was a trigger. So we find that tends to be, first of all, some genetic aspect which make someone predisposed to getting those types of conditions. Secondly, they’ve had chronic or acute stress in their lives, and that stress doesn’t have to be psychological stress. It can be physical stress. So we even treat people who have athletes over-training syndrome, where they put their bodies too hard. So any kind of mental, physical, emotional stress on the body. That’s one factor combined with the trigger. And in the case of M E and chronic fatigue syndrome, it tends to be a viral trigger, a stomach bug or flu or something like that. And obviously with long COVID, it tends to be the COVID 19 infection and a combination of those three factors. So our genes and upbringing, the chronic or acute stress and then the physical trigger. We believe that creates a conditioning effect in the brain where the brain for whatever reason, decides to er on the side of caution and starts over defending. Yeah, if I could just share a diagram which I think everyone would find really useful to put this into context. And then I can show you how these kind of pathways interact. So we start off with these three factors are predisposed factors, chronic stress and the viral bacterial, another type of trigger. In the case of mold illness, the trigger will be mold, obviously or some kind of chemical. 

And those three factors then believe, create what we call this conditioning effect in two brain structures. And number four on this diagram the media and the concealer. And so the media’s role as you can see that number four is to defend from physical danger. Yeah, it’s traditionally known as a psychological defender, but actually the has now been shown to be involved in pain activity. Immune response is so This is our kind of central defensive corps. Yeah, and the insular part of the brain, which actually doesn’t sit in the limbic system. It’s between the limbic system and the cortex. The job is to take in all coming information, assess the body and then create appropriate autonomic or immune response is not to maintain. It was almost like a survival button as it were in the brain. 

And I believe that in the media and the concealer, they learn to over defend as a result of that infection and the fact that we were under psychological or chronic stress or physical stress. And so, at number five, those brain structures now chronic, sympathetic around, also triggering the sympathetic nervous system, fight, flight or freeze response. Then there’s an aspect of the immune system gets really triggered because once again, the systems now over defending just in case something on the side of caution and we get abnormalities in the hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal access, which then lead to the symptoms of number six. 

So many people realize this, but when we have flu symptoms are not coming from the flu virus or the COVID-nineteen coming from our own immune systems activity, so that can cause all of the symptoms like muscle dysfunction, pain, sleep issues, cognitive issues, I B s, you know, the whole suite of symptoms that we see in the clinic. We also get secondary on the cycle that number seven, which may be mitochondrial dysfunction. The cell danger response that we talked about earlier. Allergies and sensitivities. Latent opportunistic viruses and bacteria. Reactivation at number seven, which feed into the symptoms, which then loop back to a hyper-vigilant, hyper sensitive brain that says, Hey, we might still be in danger. Let her on the side of caution. And so those symptoms have picked up and magnified in the dark gray in the US coming into the peninsula, which looked back to the peninsula. And those brain structures say, I knew we were in danger. Look at these symptoms. When are experiencing the body? This is indicative of ongoing infection. Let’s read. Trigger the immune system and nervous system at number five, creating the symptoms that number six looking back to high percentage of brain and round and round we go. And so the reason the illness has become chronic is because in physics we know that a wave has to have a feedback loop. The inputs and outputs of the system have got locked together. The brain has made inadvertently a mistake which is choosing symptoms, and the body is a conditioned trigger conditions, stimulus that indicates ongoing problems in the body that need rectifying, creating this vicious cycle and the ongoing illness. And the only difference here with sensitivity actions like mold, chemical focus, electrical sensitivities is that we would have a little narrow next to number five, where external triggers can also then trigger quite sympathetic arousal and the immune function so it can be an externally generated trigger that’s ongoing creating these vicious loops. And are you a game of Thrones fan by any chance?

Eric Gordon, MD

I must admit, I did. I did enjoy that.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

You enjoy that. People are, you know, we can just imagine a fairytale. So imagine if you are the king of the castle, Okay? Your castle and the kingdom that you reign over and imagine that the army is your nervous system and the navy is your immune system. So they’re defending the castle. But the castle has a drought. The kingdom has drought. And so everyone in the castle is week. The army and navy a little weaker than normal now, incomes and invading army over the hill. And so your army and navy, they fight brilliantly, and they only just managed to fight off this invader But now they’re traumatized because they come to you, King Eric. And they say, King Eric, we only just managed to fight off the incoming army. 

From now on, we need all the corn, all the grain, all the metal, all the resources of the kingdom. You need to be given to us because we never know with another getting army. And we need the kingdom nearly fell. And I think that’s the logical thing to do. Like all the resources need to go to the Army and Navy. Now what happens is even when a little child walks over the hill, the army and Navy start firing off their arrows and their weapons to defend the kingdom. Because that’s traumatized now and then what happens is they keep coming to you and you say, Well, yeah, you’re doing the right thing. And so they keep over defending the Kingdom Castle, using up all the resources, creating exhaustion and fatigue to fight a war that no longer exists.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yes, this is exactly what we see. And along with that, at the same time is that because all the resources are being used to defend, that’s when the toxin begin to build up in the system because taking out the garbage is something you don’t do when you’re sick, there’s just not enough energy to use it. So this is a fascinating story of how we wind up hyper defended.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly. And as you say, there’s so many secondary impacts, depending on the genetic and physiological vulnerabilities of patients. So somebody’s detoxification systems may not be working. They may have heavy metal toxicity. They may have opportunistic viruses and bacteria infections, and when we identify those, then the patient, they think, Oh, that’s the reason for this condition. But actually they’re all downstream. Symptoms and analogy that a lot of our patients find useful is this idea that you’re standing on the bridge and you’re looking down on the river, and there are people drowning in the river, so you jump in the river you value, we save them, and there’s another person, the river. 

So you’re jumping again and you save them, and you keep doing that again and again when you set up a rescue center next to the bridge and the hospital, or do you think I’m doing a great job? But then nobody’s asking the question who’s throwing these people in the river in the first place upstream? Right? And I think that’s what’s happening is that no doubt there are physical abnormalities. They’re occurring in the bodies. But we generally believe that the vast majority of those are downstream from the brains decision to over defend and not being normal. Homeostatic state

Eric Gordon, MD

I you know what’s important about that is I agree with you because that is why it’s been so hard to help people with these illnesses because you get the things that you’re pulling out of the river. You know, all these little illnesses that the toxins, the mold, the line that the E v, the COVID, you know, they’re all they’re all been magnified because most people are able to handle both illnesses. Those are usually not terrible things we’ve coexisting with Michael toxins for billions for eons, you know, with E. T. V is part of our evolutionary history. All these things are what’s different is now in. Something has shifted where the immune system and, as you say, the controller of the brain is now or, you know, the brain actually is now sensing persistent danger instead of being able to deal with it. So it’s that response and and you know, again, my job is often to be treating all those things. But without when? When? When that hyper-vigilant nervous system is in control, You’re right. Treating those things is like a little bit like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It doesn’t change the end result, which is fatigue and not being able to function. We need the brain, so just thank you because you’re giving the story that I think is so important. And it’s so frustrating. So many patients, because they you know, there are the people who you treat the bug and they get better. It does happen, but so many so many times. People are frustrated because they treated this bug and that bug and they’re still stuck. And so more of your story. My side.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

So yeah, so that’s how our hypothesis and this is so interesting because we have that hypothesis published in 2002 Main focus on them. And then we introduced the idea of the insular in 2009, 2010, and some recent research on the concealer is so fascinating. So what they’re able to do. They take rats and they use a trigger to create inflammatory bowel disease. And these rats okay, and they measure the electrical signaling in the brain, and they find that there’s a unique signature in the part of the brain. Then what they’re able to do is take normal mice. Or so I think it’s the same price, but no longer trigger with I b D. They have the same electrical signature inside the insulin, and guess what? They get irritable about this with no external trigger. And so this is fascinating is the first time in medical history that we have understood that. Actually, there’s a part of the brain that stores immune signatures and has them dormant, ready for when that next trigger maybe received. It may well be in the concealer, and that’s so fascinating because that fits with our hypothesis. That was a hypothesis for 12 years of the incident was involved, and that means that the condition responses gets stored there, and actually, if we can just retrain that part of the brain, we can treat a whole host of different inflammatory diseases by informing the brain we’re no longer in danger and it can switch off Inflammatory response

Eric Gordon, MD

And it’s so important is that explains why people will recur with the same symptoms complex with a new stress that has nothing to do with the original event. They don’t need another antibiotic. They need to retrain their immune response that

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly. And this is the frustrating thing for so many practitioners is they will see somebody will make adjustments and diet supplements, medication. Someone will get a certain way better. But as you say, the next stress that comes along, it re triggers that dormant defence response. And this is often because the emotional defence system and the physiological defence system get wired together. And that’s really fascinating that, you know, we know that you’re in that fight to get a wire together so the brain takes that external stress as potential evidence that immunity will be compromised or this trigger will be back here again and we won’t be able to handle it because of all that stress. Therefore, that’s on the side of caution and trigger Those excessive defence response is to ensure survival because survival is more important than well-being.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yes, yes. So You know what? I just have to stop for one because I always triggers my patients. And rightly so is the hint that they have a psychological illness, you know, because they have been you know, abused by the medical system and their families with the idea because they don’t have a clear cut diagnose that they’re just so called depressed when this is nothing to do with depression. You know, I mean, I always tell people, you know, you can be anxious and you can be depressed, but that does not cause the illness. 

Something physical triggered you off, but your pre disposing conditions kept you there. And what you’re showing us is how the wiring of the self defence system. You know, of course, because there is no difference between the psyche and the and the and the immune system, you know? I mean, that’s what people have to understand, you know, like all the chemicals that the serotonin dopamine and they’re on your immune cells as well. So there’s it’s one big soup. And so just understand that we’re not saying that this is a psychological illness. This is the physical response to how to protect yourself.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yes, you bring a really important point. We spend so much trying trying to explain this to support groups and patients. We’re not saying it’s when the mind we’re saying it’s in the unconscious brain so patient is not responsible for it. It’s all the conditioning effects have happened completely unconsciously, and nobody is to blame for their condition. And I think you bring up an important point. You know, when you go to the hospital, you have a separate urology department, a separate physiology department, separate department, which is ridiculous, really, because actually, the system, our brains doesn’t differentiate. 

It simply says, What do I need to do to ensure survival? And that survival response will include an emotional response, a physiological response and biological. So when we have flu, how do we feel? We feel down depressed. We don’t feel like doing anything. We feel motivated. That is deliberately there. So we rest and allow the immune system to do its work. And so every physiological illness has an emotional component. Every emotional illness has a physiological component because it’s an integrated response that the body creates to ensure survival, and if we understand that there were no longer blaming anybody for anything. We simply saying, Can we use some of these mechanisms to calm the brain down to realize that we are safe and then the system comes back to his home spaces? And that’s what we’re doing?

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, that’s beautiful because the feeling of danger, the feeling that the next thing I’m exposed to is gonna make me sick. It is what it is, a loop that does not allow healing. You know, it’s like scratching. If you keep scratching the scab off, it doesn’t heal, that’s what we’re doing. I mean, it’s hard not to, and that’s why we need training. So tell me a little bit about how your program works, because that’s always the black box for people. Okay,

Ashok Gupta, MSc

So this is something that’s taken 20 years to develop, and I started off in 2001 in fact, little small clinic in London, you know, seeing patients and seeing what I did, help others and have built up a real massive kind of experiential evidence base of what works for most people most of the time. And there are three hours of the program that we find support recovery. So the first are is the core, which is retraining the brain. And that’s a unique set of steps. The seven step process that each time we recognize these danger signals in the periphery of consciousness. There’s a seven step process that we take people through, and it’s quite involved in quite detailed and the other brain training techniques as well. So that’s the core of it. And that’s the unique bit to support retraining. We also have the second hour of the program, which is relaxing the nervous system. So we know that the brain is more neural, plastic and changeable when it’s calmer. 

And so we use breathing meditation techniques, good sleep hygeine, getting good sleep at night, pacing ourselves daylight and an anti-inflammatory diet. So all of the things that just helps relax the entire system to enable the brain to be retrained. Now there’s a lot of things that people have already done. They’ve come across those things, journey so many people already doing those things, and the third of the program is really engaging with joy. We know that the brain is more plastic. It’s gonna be it’s gonna feel safer when we actually feel and connect with happiness and joy that’s already inherent within us and medicine kind of missing out on this really important part of healing. And we encourage our patients to recognize what brings them joy, not wait until the healthy before they’re allowed to be happy. But be happy now and the health will follow. And so reconnecting with joy and all the things that brings joy is incredibly important part of healing as well.

Eric Gordon, MD

No, I think that how do you say that is the secret to what we call the black box of healing? Because in regular medicine, you know will operate on somebody or you treat their pneumonia and you know you, you know, take out something or you kill a bug, and then you have to wait for the body to heal. And that’s that black box of healing. We don’t, you know. And one of the secrets I mean, basically, what you’re teaching in your program is how to optimize that on all levels. You know

Ashok Gupta, MSc

That’s exactly right. You hit the nail on the head. We call this putting the body and the optimal healing state. So this is relevant for all illnesses when the bodies in the optimal state it is his own best healer. And so many so often, you know, we’re using drugs and various things to essentially the drugs are doing the work there supporting the body in its ability to heal. And when we have it in the optimal state, the body can do a lot of these things, including, for instance, detoxification. So we know that there’s many things we can do to help the body and support the body detoxification. But when it is in the parasympathetic state, it naturally detoxifying is much better than any external trigger.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, because what we do, I call it band-aids medicine. Okay because we’re putting band-aids, you know, we’re stopping the bleeding and then we’re helping the body heal or allowing the body to heal. And so, you know, I I think that’s the dance is, you know, in the individual patient is finding the part. There’s some people who need more support in some areas, but without the alignment. I mean, that’s what you’re talking about is aligning the desire to hell with opening the heart with doing some joy in life because it’s amazing how long you can live feeling miserable. So that’s what I think that people don’t realize is that this is not about living or dying. Okay, because, as you said at the beginning of the body wants to survive, whether you survive the joy or with sorrow on some level of hate to say, it’s simplistic to say it’s a choice, that’s too. But there is a bit of choice involved in that, you know, And that’s what I think, that you’re going to help people find that choice point. And it doesn’t seem so overwhelming because when you’re in the bottom of the whole, the idea that you’re going to have joy seems probably a little too much.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly, and that is the training. So that’s why we don’t call this an overnight wonder. It is training. It is gradual training of our nervous system and our immune system, and it’s also an existential aspect as well. So, you know, we are a non-denominational program, so this is, you know, it doesn’t have to be from a particular religions spirituality, but what we can all believe in the power of love. Yeah, even if you’re in the U. S. You know, the idea that love is a powerful force for healing is very real and very true. So how do we connect to whatever we want to call that deeper sense of love and connection to ourselves, the universe or our spirituality? And when we connect deep with that, that creates a real sense of safety also in the brain of, you know. And so a lot of patients have found that aspect of our program, which is optional, also helps them really kind of connect and be able to let go and allow the system to come back to balance because they’re no longer living life from a place of fear. But they’re living life from a place of safety and connection and that really heels as well.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, we need support, but you have to find it within its very frustrating because you know anyone who it has been really even acute illness. When you’re in the midst of it, the information that your body is getting is this Life is dangerous, you know, And it’s best if I don’t move, you know, I just hunker down. It will go away, I will recover. And but after? Yeah, and so what? What It takes great faith, Encourage, you know, to move forward like this because I can feel that desire when I put myself in the position of having no energy to just wanna, like, hide

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly. And something that we’re really big on is the idea of social healing. So we’ve heard of social learning, but this is social healing where, actually we want to give people a ton of support. So we have a support group and then we have webinars every week with myself a connection with me. We have then group coaching where people put into smaller groups and they work with each other. And we find that that helps people overcome the resistance to being active and doing something about their condition, but also the sense of reassurance that I’m understood. I’m not alone with this condition. There are other people around me who can empathize. And that is so important, you know, in healing. 

And you must be aware of the stats on all risk mortality. You know the number one risk and mortality you think will probably be drinking and smoking or obesity or whatever. It’s loneliness, subjective sense of loneliness. Is the number one, impact on or mortality? Which is incredible, you know, And, you know, And when we think about that, we can understand that when we feel subjectively alone and someone can feel alone in a marriage, I can feel alone in a group that sense of I’m alone with my problems that lack of connection to others really impacts on the nervous system in our immune system. And therefore, the idea of social healing is so important now in all aspects of medicine,

Eric Gordon, MD

Yes, and, you know, bring it just briefly down to the biological level. You know, when we’re talking about the danger response, that final step into leave this self defence response is to restore cellular communication fully. So the cell is now part of the organ that it’s part of the whole system, because before it finishes healing, it’s not listening to the signals. Clearly listens to some of them, but not others. And it doesn’t you know, that’s why we get this thyroid resistance and all the things that people have is because it’s still stuck even though it’s almost normal. Not quite. So it’s that this socialization is such a huge piece and it’s nice to have the support group that’s based on healing, because one of the issues that I have with many I mean, I think the support groups and the Facebook pages for chronic illness are incredibly helpful for information. I mean, I must say I have learned a lot over the years from my patients who go through those pages, but on the other hand, they also can be a great pit of hopelessness and helplessness. And that’s what I urge people to be really careful of and realized why it’s so important to have a a group like you’re trying to that you’re creating for people. You know, a place where the support is there. But the light is also there because if you go to a support place that’s full of darkness, you’re just going to reinforce that hopelessness. And it’s unfortunate, but that’s the downside. So there’s always a balance, so we’ll look for information. But don’t fall in love with the doom and gloom that’s often there.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, I agree, and I think a lot of support groups are well meaning, and you know they want to wait for something that’s proven before they will recommend it. But at the same time, what’s happening is when the brain is in this altered state. There’s a lot of detective work and analysis that it gets stuck in, and so it will look for the next the next thing and the next thing. So it’s because of this and all these abnormalities. They’re finding the body there once again, look at those downstream effects and things that I need to solve this and I need to solve this and I’ve got this problem. 

And then when patients do get better using, let’s say our program or other things they say, Oh, well, you didn’t have the condition in the first place and that’s the only reason you could possibly got better. Which for me is like the worst post rationalization you can come up with and dismissing people who had genuinely had the condition. So we always encourage when people come into our program is just for a period of time. You’re on R program. Please stop researching. Stop listening to what you’re hearing on support groups and just focus on our program. Because then you’re putting that sense of safety, and I’m in the right place. I’m on the road to recovery rather than hearing all these other messages constantly at the same time.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah and I can’t. You know I can. I say I learned a lot from my patients are always searching, so I’m glad that they do. But yes, if it’s incessant, it becomes its own, its own bed. And because there’s always, you know, you begin to think you’ve got 10 or 20 things wrong with you. You know what you have is an immune system that’s just stuck in a loop, and the longer you stay there, you will accumulate more symptoms. But it doesn’t mean you have to treat everything. And it’s when you align your immune system. You know, there might be one or two things that you will need treated, but yeah, but not everything. I mean, that becomes overwhelming. You know, it’s life. Life is I say much more resourceful. Are healing is much more resourceful. Our brain or immune system we can heal. We don’t have to. I just say the simplest thing is, when I was young, I was a car mechanic. And as a mechanic, you have to fix it, right? Okay. The beauty of the body is that for most things you just gotta get close to. The system is self feeling. I mean, that’s why people keep going to doctor. Because guess what? Most of the things you go to the doctor for gets better in six weeks, no matter what you do. Yeah. So it’s going back to our core where you’re bringing people, but going back to a little bit more of the physiological story or the brain story because the insulin is something that has always been like on the edge of knowledge, so to speak. You know, people really haven’t focused on that. Can just talk a little bit more about that.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Sure. So there have been, you know, lots of studies done on the concealer when it comes to conditioning in the immune system. And that’s been, you know, fascinating. And I think essentially, as we said, this concealer, it sits between the limbic system and the cortex and it’s designed to, almost be the sentinel of the body monitors everything from a higher level of consciousness, all the physiological things that are going on. So autonomic nervous system, the parasympathetic, the immune system. It’s monitoring everything that’s going on and saying right now that I understand all of this incoming information. What is the appropriate physiological responses? Neurological response? And it’s a meme, and its role is to maintain that space to maintain that survival. 

Yeah, and what’s interesting is the incident also involved in pain detection. So it treats pain detection in a similar way to immune detection in terms of potential viruses and bacteria in the body. Taking that incoming data Now, sometimes the insular gets overwhelmed because it received so much signaling to say we’re in danger. We’re in danger that it can no longer continue with this response, which is, let me take the data and create the appropriate response. It then goes into panic mode, and this has been detected in some patients where the into that just keeps firing off sympathetic responses. An immune response is in a scattergun effect just in a state of panic, and that I believe what then causes, you know, the downstream symptoms. It’s no longer able to maintain homeostasis.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, that fits. What we see clinically yeah, is that people are stuck in everything becomes dangerous.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, and everything. It’s dangerous. The inflammation becomes localized and generalized. So we often find patients. Start with a localized pain syndrome, let’s say the arms or the leg. But then because the brains in panic mode, it starts inflaming, continuing the entire body, creating then the ongoing pain throughout the body like fibromyalgia and those types of symptoms. And not only that, the pain networks themselves become sensitized the peripheral, localized nerves become sensitized. And you’ve got this whole system reacting to itself, creating ongoing chronic pain and once again, the drugs that people take. I’m trying to attempting to numb the entire system, but they’re not getting to the course. Which is why is my body creating this ongoing widespread inflammatory response?

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, and we started getting the upregulation. I always tell people that you know you, you your brain should be filtering a lot of this out. And I guess when the insulin is activated, those filters are down regulated. So all the information is flooding in because, you know, I always tell folks, if you don’t feel your buttocks until I mentioned them, you know, you might be sitting there, but you don’t notice because you’re filtering that information. But I guess when you’re activated, that filter gets lost. So every pressure point now gets amplified.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, So when you start your program because I just want to get a little more feel for how the program itself works. So what? Talking to what’s the first, you know, one or two weeks like and then,

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, MD

It out.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

So the program is a series of online videos and webinars, so it can be done anywhere in the world. Which is great because a lot of patients can’t travel, and essentially in the first couple of weeks is about preparing the soil to plant the seed. So we want people to be able to just relax their nervous system to make that soil fertile for retraining, to loosen the birth as it were. Yeah, And so that’s where we recommend the breathing and the meditation and relaxation techniques, whatever works for people and secondly, understanding the hypothesis because if your brain says, I understand this hypothesis and I need to retrain the brain. But then it says. But I’m not sure if this actually applies to me, because I’ve also got this. And I’ve also got that they really need to buy into the hypothesis and really feel that this is for them. Yeah, even if the skeptical just putting their skepticism to one side. And I’m really gonna go for this retraining. So the first week or so it’s all about understanding, hypothesis, learning to breathe, meditate. 

And then the second week, third week people go onto the actual retraining itself, and that’s that’s very unique seven step process and understanding why the body is reacting and what peripheral signaling we get in our consciousness and then shifting and retraining those peripheral signals. Once again, it is not psychological, so I’ll give you the analogy of people think of, Let’s say, learning to drive a car. That’s your first driving lessons. Now, if this was C B, T or cognitive, you could sit there and think, right, I’m gonna usually positive I’m going to let go of any negative patterns I have about driving, and I’ll be able to drive the car. But just having a positive mindset and shifting cognitive behavioral responses is not gonna help you drive the car. 

What actually requires is brain retraining your brain training where you say, right, let me move the steering wheel, move the gear shift, press the accelerator, train my body to actually learn how to do this automatically to eventually I can learn to drive. And I could be eating a sandwich and listening to the radio and talking to somebody. But my body has learned how to do it automatically. So that’s the difference between thinking. This is psychological and it’s cognitive versus an actual training of the nervous system, and that’s what we’re doing here. Is training the patient to recognize those peripheral danger signals? Train the brain that we’re no longer in danger and it can switch off these types of responses to bring us back to homeostasis? And that’s what that requires repetition. So when you learn to drive a car, you can’t just have one lesson and you’re done. It’s repetition again and again with the faith and trust that eventually will be able to learn to drive the car.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, okay, That I think it really helps some of the doubts that I could hear people offer, you know, like, Oh, you know, I can’t meditate or, you know, I can’t breathing, doesn’t do anything for me or, you know, because that’s the most again. It’s sort of like what you said about, you know, the basic, self caring things that most of these most of our patients have already engaged in and tried to work on. But it’s doing them within the context of retraining rather than I’m just doing these isolated actions.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yes, and the some of the parts is greater. Yes, that’s the point that actually doing each of these individual things has an incremental effect on our nervous system. But when you’re doing them together, they’re creating the fertile ground for the retraining to occur and retraining. So all of those little things they loosen up the soil and imagine that your brain is like a river. It’s always known to dig this channel and move in this direction, and suddenly you need the river to shift direction and did a new channel and go along this new pathway. But if that soil is very hard and stuck. It’s not gonna shift. So all of these techniques they loosen up the brain, enabling that river to shift direction. And you’re that defensive response to now go along a safety response. Essentially, the Left Party is a danger response. The right and it is a safety response. And that’s what we want the brain to engage in,

Eric Gordon, MD

Right? Yeah, it’s interesting because right now so many people are trying to do this. You know, just bio chemically with things like ketamine and some of the low dose psychedelics and stuff. And it’s the realization that not that those are those are not good or bad. Depends how they’re used. But it’s still not really teach you how to drive. It’s giving you. It’s given you one supervised lesson and, you know, see how you go. But you really not retraining your brain because that takes time. That is a process,

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, and I think I’m very intrigued by those particular methodologies, and I do believe a theoretical. The theory we have is that what’s happening is those psychedelics small does. They’re able to create the opportunity for Plastic City and for more connectivity within the brain, and therefore they open up windows for the new insights and new ways of being that rather than a very fixed brain. And that’s why they have been shown to be useful and depression. So, yeah, it’s an intriguing thing, but it’s still fits with a hypothesis that is not those drugs are not making the shift. You know, those logos academics that just allowing you to then create the shift that you want to.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, I was one of the issues that I always have in life, as I always want to combine everything. So I’m already mixing, but no, but but so because this is this is the thing is harnessing the will to healing, you know, because almost all of us have will. But being when you’re chronically and it’s the interesting thing is that so much of my sickest patients really have a tremendous amount of will. But they don’t know how to harness it to heal, because you know, because they don’t give up, you know, rarely do occasionally. Unfortunately, some people do, but most people don’t give up, and that shows a lot of will. And if it can be harnessed with, you know, with the program like yours or, you know, I mean different things. But I like you know, what I like about what I’ve heard you’ve been talking about. Is that your encompassing? The tools that people need to really learn how to walk forward. You know, within on this journey because, you know, you can learn how to breathe, you know, you can learn how to meditate, but if you’re still feeling as soon as you stop for me, I’m so sick, you’re going to have moments of feeling a little bit better, But it’s not gonna It’s not going to let your immune system really learnt that there is a chance for safety.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, I think, as you say, there’s a complexity there. It’s the complexity of the human condition and the human experience. And what this is doing is empowering somebody to be their own healer, to recognize what’s going on in their brain in their consciousness and look at what aspects of their personality. And this is where it does become psychological. What aspects of someone’s personality may be impacting on their ability to retrain or impacting on their ability to heal. This once again, isn’t blaming someone but a classic example? A very trait that we see a time and time again in the clinic is conscientiousness, which overall, is a very, very good positive trade to have. 

But if we become over conscientious, guess what? We start having a certain patterns, like what we call the achieve a pattern. So someone will he’ll using a program. At the moment they’ve got the energy back seventy-eight percent. The achievement will kick in and they will suddenly go back to an incredibly difficult job, will say. And then they’ll have a dip because their bodies that wasn’t ready for it. And that’s an example of where these conditions are. A wake-up call to see How are we living life before that wasn’t self-care and wasn’t actually an authentic way of living and actually can wake up to that and see how we ourselves are impacting on our recovery. So there’s a huge amount of empowerment, looking at it that way,

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah no, and that is so important because that is yeah, the two things that you said that I think I have to be reinforced to people all the time is one. As soon as you start to feel better, don’t go out back into your own life and give yourself some time and look at it. And look where you overtaxed yourself because you’ve got here because you overtaxed yourself on some level. But you know, you either ask your muscles to do too much your brain to do too much or you know, something pushed your body where it was exhausted. You know its ability to find the energy to He’ll just wasn’t there, you know? And you people, you know, we’ve seen this with chronic fatigue world for 30 years. You know, you if you get a little better and you push, you’re gonna fall back again. You have to be careful, okay? And the other thing is that psychological component and just understanding. Some of us are wired for anxiety. Some of us are wired for depression. Some of us are wired, and unfortunately, some of us are wired closer to the little obsessive thinking kind of mode. And when that gets triggered, that is yourself defense mechanism. It’s not a bad thing. It’s how your body has has decided to protect itself, but once it’s triggered, it becomes a jail and you need to free yourself from it. You need to learn how to use it as a tool instead of as the ruler, because you know it’s just a tool. And unfortunately, it’s one that when you’re still often comes to the forefront and it doesn’t make some of the most difficult patients to help get well is because they get so engaged in self protection.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, and that’s that natural response as you say that when we feel we are in danger, overwhelmed with something, we want to go into hibernation mode, that phrase mode almost and and kind of. Let go of that and I. This is a journey of connecting to human spirit about that ability to keep going through those dark tunnels, no matter what, knowing that you have that fight and have the energy that developed with you. So it’s strengthening, and so many of my clients they want to get better from these conditions, they say. I’m transformed, I’m different, I’m stronger. I got through that condition and now I can face like in a very, very different way. And that’s incredibly empowering as well.

Eric Gordon, MD

And that is healing. You know what you said? You know the meaning of life. I don’t really know, but but we know that that people that joy and finding your own joy seems to be elemental, at least in healing and and having people, the people to be around, people who have joy uplift us all, you know, and that and that’s a big request when your life is lying in bed and you know and being in pain Okay, fine. Joy, you know, So people often look at you like, you know, you’re insulting them almost, but that’s still is the secret, and you can’t get there. Well, most of us can get there what I call through the front door. Just someone say, you know, find joy. But I think what you’re offering is a path to begin to learn how to find your own joy.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, and I think the key thing here is it’s, but it’s the patients, and it’s the time. It’s not something that we used to do this overnight and also that joy aspect is a supporting tool. Yeah, something like that. I don’t have joined my life. I can’t find joy. It doesn’t matter. You can still, hell, But just having that principle, that an observation of the mind saying that I can’t find joy is enough. You’re not brought into that kind of way of thinking. So, yeah, it’s a lot of ways of looking at this

Ashok Gupta, MSc

helplessness. Yes. And I said, my heart goes out because I’m always amazed at the drive that people I see have, you know, it’s just inspiring. And yeah, that’s that conscientiousness, that achiever aspect, which is very you know, most people get chronic fatigue. I mean, they tend to be highly intelligent, highly driven, highly motivated. It’s those traits which have over triggered the nervous system and over triggered defensive responses, but also the same traits that can help them really dedicate themselves or something and get better as well,

Eric Gordon, MD

Which is what they need for your, so I’m just How do people yeah, before we and how do people find you? And

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Yeah, so we offer. So our program is all online, and it’s available to anyone in the world, and it’s, a six-month program. So we say a minimum of six months now. Many people get better, quicker than that, but we don’t want people to become complacent. So we say, Stick to the program. No matter. You’ve reached healing minimum six month program and you can sign up for free twenty-eight-day free 12 so people don’t have to invest and you have to put a credit card and they can watch videos learn more about our particular brain training program. 

And what we also do is people. People decided to buy the full program where one of the only programs in the world that offer a one-year money back guarantee right. And we’re doing that until we do large scale Phase three trials with hundreds of patients improved definitively. So that’s the way that people can try it without risk and see if it’s right for them. And what I forgot to mention earlier is that we’re also the only plastic program that’s got randomized control trials showing effectiveness as well. So people, it’s not just going on faith, we actually have a data. 

So one of the main trials we did in Twenty-twenty was on fibromyalgia, which obviously in many countries is pretty much the same as chronic fatigue syndrome in terms of diagnosis now. And that was a I think it was two months study, and they found that just after eight weeks in the active group program group, there’s a 40% reduction in fibromyalgia. Scores are having of pain having anxiety, depression, doubling the functional capacity, or 50-50% increase functional capacity. But in the control group, very, very low numbers. And so the fiber oh, scores where there was no change but a 40% reduction in the program group. So that was an independent randomized control trials showing that we’re working on further trials as well. And also with COVID. We’ve got some trial data that we’re looking to publish in the journal right now. We’re working on that. So as we gather evidence base, it’s not just something that people just have faith in, that the science is there. They’re gonna go wholeheartedly to make this work for them.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, because I think you know, I mean, and I think it’s a very good example of, you know, we have different theories of what keeps the persistent inflammation going. But it’s still at the end of the day is I’m from what I hear of your experience that getting the central nervous system to respond differently to those signals can get people can actually turn down the immune response. You know, I said, like, that’s what people to understand is that you don’t always have to. You don’t have to fix everything. You know you can fix one part and the system will go back to balance. And so, whether it’s removing, you know, maybe the outside source of information and sometimes, and it’s just finding a new relationship to your nervous system that will let your body tone down the information that’s no longer serving.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly right. And it’s as you say, the immune system is. Our friend is designed to help us is that it’s designed to supporters. It’s just sometimes a little mistake can be made, and then it starts responding in this particular way.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, I’m really I’m just thank you for your work, because, I mean, this is, you know, it’s always excites me when I one of the things I love about doing the Summit is I get to people who, you know, dedicated their lives to helping others. And it’s always a joy to see when you know you’ve taken your own journey and let it be a light for the rest of us. So thank you again, a pleasure. And hopefully you’ll be continuing to help many people on their path of healing.

Ashok Gupta, MSc

Absolutely. And you mentioned earlier how people can find it so they can find us on our website, which is guptaprogram.com. And then they can sign up for the free trial and get the free videos and take it from that.

Eric Gordon, MD

Yeah, and I do appreciate that because, you know, so many people have spent so much of their finances trying to get well, it’s really nice that they can know that they can try this and it’s, you know, you know, if it doesn’t work, if it works, God bless. You know nobody cares about the money, but if it doesn’t work, you know it’s not another expense that they’ve had to add, so that’s a great, great offer and It just shows you how you stand behind what you believe in what you’re doing. So thank you again. Look forward to chatting again.