Experiencing Joy and the Road to Healing

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, so, you know, as you mentioned, I’m an engineer kind of by education. I grew up in a family business where we’d been building infrastructure in the US for over 40 years now. Infrastructure being like roads, highways, bridges, airports, rail systems, things like that. And I’ve, you know, had this, always kind of got trained in this systems-thinking approach, you know, from early childhood, ’cause it’s a company my dad started, and I used to, I used to run, and, you know, as I also was super excited about technology, you know, I ended up getting into the startup world and doing a bunch of startups, starting with virtual reality and training and simulation systems to gaming and just, you know, all the things that kind of determined human behavior, essentially. You know, so that was kinda my passion, but I also had this deep, creative energy, you know, that I was always excited about. I loved music. I loved art. I love films. I loved fashion. I loved any form of art.

And over time it found that I myself had this kind of creative, artistic energy within myself to express, so I ended up becoming an artist as well. So I had an exhibit up at city hall in Orlando. I was the city’s featured artist back in, gosh, in 20, no, it was 2000. I wanna say 2008, somewhere around there. I had, I’m a pianist as well as I do these live piano sound bath concerts where I’ll play the piano for an hour and people lay down and meditate to these kinds of piano meditation concerts. You know, they drop into their flow state so to speak. You know, I wrote a graphic novel on Nikola Tesla called “The Inventor,” which is kind of my expression of an inventor, engineer, kind of creative mind trying to bring their ideas into the world, despite all odds and all, you know, hurdles. 

And it’s really the story of how anybody who has an idea, whether it’s something business-related, something mechanical or invention-related, something creative or artistic, or even bringing a child into the world, how they could do that and that journey and all the things they have to go through to get there and the mindset and the persistence and perseverance that it takes to do it. So that book, well it’s a graphic novel, so it was 152 pages of art, and that ended up becoming a bestseller. Scholastic picked it up. And it was the first kind of large graphic novel autobiography on Nikola Tesla and his battle with Thomas Edison and how he changed the world with the power of his mind and imagination. And so that was kind of fun. And yeah, and then in 2012 rolled around, we were actually looking to make a movie out of that, adapt that to film, and I was working with a big studio on that. And right before we were ready to sign a production deal that studio merged with another large studio, and everybody in the first studio got fired, all 200 people on the film side.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oops.

Engr. Rave Mehta

So I didn’t get to sign that deal soon enough, which was fine. I would have eventually got it done. It would have taken a couple more months to recycle that. But two weeks later I got Lyme Disease, and I got super sick. And that’s when I, gosh, I dropped 30 pounds within a month, had blindness bouts, cramps, anxiety, you know, had all sorts of muscle spasms, just full on nervous system disorder. I couldn’t sleep for more than 30 minutes at a time without my adrenals kicking in, me into fight or flight and waking me up every 30 minutes on the clock. I had, gosh, that was, that was the physical stuff. And then all of a sudden the neurological stuff would kick in, and anxiety, panic attacks, depression, all the things that I’ve never experienced before. And it happened pretty quickly. 

It wasn’t something that built up over time. It was something that I would, I could definitely tell something was off in my body. It was pretty much like I fell off a cliff, and, it was, you know, ’cause some people that have Lyme, it’s something that they have chronic and just kind of builds up over time. And they just identify with it as just, you know, kind of part of their sickness. But this was night and day for me. So I spent, you know, three months going back and forth between gosh, hospitals, this was in LA. So it wasn’t even in New York or where you would think you’d Lyme disease, Los Angeles where I was living at the time. And I don’t remember a tick bite. Apparently 80% of patients don’t remember tick bites that do have Lyme, right? So I don’t remember how I got it or where I got it, but I spent a lot of time going back and forth between specialists and doing lots of tests. A lot of blood work, a lot of different types of tests, and nothing really showed up significant. Three months of going back and forth between Cedar Sinai hospital and various doctors’ offices and specialists. And at the end, the final conclusion of the final person that saw me was that, yeah, we think you have anxiety. Here, let us prescribe some Prozac.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That is unfortunately a very common story in this path.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, and I can imagine, I mean, I can imagine that’s their catch-all bucket ’cause if you can’t figure it out then it’s gotta be mental, and this is how you keep you in the system. So, you know, and that’s, that wasn’t that person’s fault. That’s just, that’s just how the machinery works, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s just what we did. We did that to people with multiple sclerosis 40, 50 years ago, so it’s what we do. If we don’t understand, if we can’t make a clear diagnosis, psychology is our answer, our fallback.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, it’s a catch-all bucket, so to speak, right? So at least I was aware enough that I knew that wasn’t the issue, and I didn’t take the prescription, but I didn’t know what it was, and this is, I had no idea what it was, but meanwhile I was getting worse and worse, and it really wasn’t until, so at that point I was like, I don’t think I’m going to survive 2012. So my last act on this planet was gonna be to release this graphic novel that I thought I was gonna make a movie off of. But at least get it out there, get it published at Comic-Con. And I had, you know, I convinced the publisher at Comic-Con to let me, you know, release it through them. You know, or at least do a book signing at Comic-Con. Comic-Con’s in San Diego, around, you know, early July every year. It’s a big convention for comic books and all things entertainment, movies, comics, music. 

It’s about 120,000 people that show up there. So I went there to my book signing. I had three days of book signings. Missed the first day, I was too sick. The second day I was too nervous that all that stimulation would just crush me. And then the third day my sister showed up and dragged me out of my hotel room and took me there. She’s like, you’re gonna regret this, you know, if you don’t do this. So I’m like, okay. So I went there, and there was this long line of people waiting for me to sign my book. I’m like, wow, people actually cared about this book. So I’m sitting there doing the book signing. And in about 20 minutes, my body feels normal for the first time. 

You know, people are like expressing their gratitude, their thanks for putting this piece of work or this art, you know, piece of art into the world. And I was like, wow, this is what it felt like to be healthy. It’s been seven months at that point. This was July, and this started in January of 2012, and about 40 minutes into the book signing, I felt high. I felt like I just went skydiving, and had this adrenaline rush. Everything was vibrant. People looked beautiful again. Life looked amazing. I was thinking to myself like, wow, I really wanna live. And maybe I could figure out what’s happening here and hack this mystery on this to kind of get me, you know, dig myself out of this. So it gave me hope. 

So that was the first thing. It gave me hope. And then that set me, kind of shifted my mindset, sent me on this journey, this four-year journey where I moved back to Florida where my family was, spent the next three and a half to four years visiting probably close to 40, or maybe even more than 40 alternative health practitioners, scientists, technologists, anyone on the fringe, to learn how they looked at the mind/body consciousness, how they treat it, you know, what tools they use, what agents that use to, you know, to diagnose and heal. So I ended up getting certified in a lot of different modalities from Ayurveda to kinesiology and homeopathy to a bunch of things that people never heard of, you know, saw a lot of cool technology devices, you know, from voice profiling to discover what microtones, you know, are out of balance. Eye scanning, you know, to see what eye, you know, what little,

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Movements, yep.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Movements, not even movement, it’s just little splotches in your eyes that can tell you what balances are. Obviously in Eastern medicine and Ayurveda we look at the tongue a lot, and we look at the face a lot to see what wrinkles. You know, one wrinkle could tell you your liver is off. You know, it’s just, I mean, there so many different expressions that contain our entire system in it, whether it’s your fingernails or your tongue or your eyes, or your sound or your voice, your blood, that there’s so many ways to diagnose what’s going on, or what’s out of balance that we hardly tap into that understanding or that holistic science. And I was able to experience a bunch of different versions of it, which is kind of cool.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That, no, that is something I just wanna reinforce is that the plethora of possibilities for diagnosis and for healing that, and I just urge people to always remember to not give up hope because just because we haven’t found the answer doesn’t mean that it’s not there. It’s just, there’s like you said, there are so many ways to dance with the body and understand it, so, I mean, just keep going, but I just wanna really reinforce that, ’cause hope from what you said at the beginning, hope is the key to triggering healing.

Engr. Rave Mehta

And that, you know, there’s a very big universal truth in that statement because it was hope that opened me up to the potential of me healing myself. And so what happened was every time I tried something, and if it didn’t work, I would actually look for something else to inspire hope in me to keep me going. And that would keep my life force, my Prana, my Chi up, and my, you know, my energy up and my interest up, my curiosity up to keep me going until something finally clicked. So it was just a matter of time. And I needed the engine to keep myself going motivated, and hope was that engine, that was that motivational engine that kept me going long enough to, until stuff started falling into place. And that’s just, that was just a matter of time. You know, just like when you start a business or are running a startup, you know, the biggest factor is timing. And I mean, you could get capital. 

You could get the, you could have the right idea, have the right team, but if you’re, if the timing is off, then none of it matters. And if you have enough runway until the timing does click, that’s when people make, you know, the big wins. So, so that was, you know, it translated perfectly into this. You know, my big win was, you know, healing myself. And I just had to be around long enough for that discovery to come up. And we see this in science all the time, right? You know, you can’t solve certain things. And then all of a sudden, someone invents some new technology or some new medication or some new, you know, tool or diagnostic that allows you to do it. And that’s, it’s just a matter of time. So, so yeah, so as I started doing all these things, and, you know, practicing these different modalities, kind of becoming a health practitioner myself using these tools and modalities to experiment on myself, one of the things that really struck a chord with me, I was talking to a friend who wrote a book on how action adventure athletes called “The Rise of Superman.” 

His name is Steven Kotler, and he wrote a book on how action adventure athletes do these superhuman things. They defy death, they break world records, and they do all this by tapping into flow or getting into flow states. And so we were talking on the phone once, and we were kind of sharing each other’s Lyme journeys, and he, and then we started talking about flow. And the one thing that he told me that really struck a chord was that, yeah, you know, when we did this research with athletes, we’d found that novelty is a trigger of flow. And that really struck a chord with me because it was pretty much aligned with everything that’s happening with me. Every time I’d try something new, I’d start to feel better. I was incrementally recovering, but then the novelty wore off when I’d plateau, so then I’d try something new again. 

And once again, I had hope. I kept re-inspiring hope in myself, like consciously, you know, not accidentally. And like the first time it was accidentally when I was doing the book signing, but then there was like, hey, hope is my engine. So let me keep finding hope in things, possibilities in things. And then every time I’d try something new again, I’d get better. And then when the novelty wore off, it’d plateau, so I realized that novelty was a part of this healing process. So it really got deep into how flow states work. I started experimenting a lot with it. I tried all sorts of different things, and what I discovered is flow states, these peak performance moments where you get up here, and you’re up here for a minute. 

And then you come down, or an hour or however long you are, wasn’t really what I was looking for is ’cause I kept dropping down to this very low baseline. And what I was really interested in is getting my fundamental baseline up, my state of flow so to speak versus my flow state, my persistent state of flow. And so I discovered a whole lot, a whole bunch of other things and parameters around what gets your baseline up, which really gave me a much larger framework and understanding of what flow even is. I mean, we know like some of the mechanics. You know, what neuro-transmitters get triggered, you know. Whether it’s dopamine, epinephrine or norepinephrine, your nanomites, the things that create focus and what creates the mechanical parts, you know, the results of being in a flow state, but where does it even come from? 

Like, you know, we know how to trigger it. We know how you can shift into a perceptual state, get hyper present. You know, we know, the challenge of skill ratio. If you’re, if you have a slightly harder challenge than you’re skill ratio that could enable you to get into flow state. Really what I discovered is flow is finding a wave, it’s a rhythm, right? And riding that wave, riding that rhythm as long as you can until something triggers you out of it. But all of that still, you know, to me, was like, what really is this? And to me, I concluded that flow is just life force. It’s really accessing life force, and you could do that in a number of ways by getting hyper present. You could do it, it’s all tapping into that wave because even life force, everything moves and oscillates, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, but, you know, that’s, can you, what I wanna say is that I’d love you to focus a little bit more on that because one of the things that’s very difficult for people when they get very ill is their energy is low, and their brains aren’t working well. So they, you know, the idea, so when you’re talking about flow, initially, they’re all thinking, oh my God, I can never go there. But yet what you’re now beginning to talk about is something that might be accessible to anyone because what’s difficult is, I always used to like to say is like, you know, it’s hard to learn how to swim when you’re drowning.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And many people, when you’re chronically ill, you feel like you’re, you know, once you, to do anything is so much effort. So with that, just tell me more about the connection that you felt and saw.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, that’s a really, really good point because hope was the first thing that got me. It’s really a state of mind. It’s the mindset, right? So it’s all perceptual, and it was, it started with hope, but then it gave me more energy. It’s like, you know, in business we say it takes money to make money, right? If you don’t have capital, you can’t make money.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Unfortunately, yes.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah. But you know, not all cases, but that’s the, that’s the, yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s a pretty good rule of thumb.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, pretty good rule of thumb. And to the same degree, it takes flow to get flow. You know, it takes energy to, heart to create more energy. And it takes, you know, life force to get more life force. So if you don’t have enough, then you need to harness what you have until it builds up to a point where you could actually take bigger steps to get more life force, so. So for me, what I discovered was this. There’s five layers to how we access life force. And I’ll kind of set up the framework ’cause it’ll answer your question a little bit more clearly. The first is your, the first layer is your body, your physical body. And this is where all the biochemical reactions, the matter, you know, the physical dense matter part of the system resides. It’s also the most dense part of the system. And this is what we study the most, right, in medicine, is the biological or physical body and how those chemical reactions take place and what it triggers and, you know, that’s what this books and stuff that we seen primarily on, recent books, on flow states and whatnot, is what mechanisms are created within the body to either tap into or keep us in that state. 

Well, then there’s the second layer, which is what I call the energetic body. This is where your meridians are, is what they’re referred to in the Eastern medicine or your nadis in Ayurveda, also your chakras. So this is where all the kinds of the energy channels exist, which powers the physical body. So if you don’t have a, if you have a specific block in a meridian, then there’s not enough flow going or life force going in there. Therefore that part of the physical body is going to get weaker, and then it’ll invite, you know, various pathogens or other biofuel toxins or inflammatory triggers to come in and weaken that part of the body. So, so that’s the second layer is the meridian or the energetic body. The third layer is the mental, emotional body. So this is the body where fear and trust are your two anchors. 

So if you’re in a fear state, then all these negative emotions that I say are rooted in fear will express themselves, and they then create a meridian block, which will then translate to some kind of biological impact. And if you’re in a trust state, you’re opening yourself up to more flow, then you’re accessing more flow, which means there’ll be more flow flowing through your body, which will push off any of these physical toxins or inflammatory triggers from, you know, taxing your system so to speak, your nervous system. So that fear/trust, mental emotional body, you know, which is really based on fear and trust, fear constrains your ability to access more life force and trust opens your channels to access more life force or flow. So that plays a big role. And then the layer above that is what I call your perceptual body. This is where your belief systems exist. This is your programming, a lot of it from your childhood, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Engr. Rave Mehta

So if you have a belief system or your programming that creates the emotions in a lot of cases without you realizing it. That determines, that steers you, right? Or it steers your day to day feelings and thoughts. So that’s, you know, a bigger body. So each one is getting bigger, but less dense, right? So you have the dense of the physical, then less dense, your energetic, and the less dense, your mental/emotional, and then less dense, your perceptual. And then this last layer is what I call this layer of universal truths. This is where all truth exists and also where all flow exists, all life force, infinite ocean of flow. And then what happens is if you have a belief system misaligned with one of these universal truths, you get less flow. And then that generates a fear-based emotion, which creates less flow. And then that creates a meridian block, which creates less low. And then your body gets dropped, only it drops the flow, down that channel from this ocean from which your physical body now has, you know, pathogens, heavy metals, chemicals, food allergens. 

These physical inflammatory triggers or stressors that will block your flow even more. So in my case when I had Lyme, I had a path, you know, I had bacteria. I had parasites. All of a sudden that created inflammation, which made me sensitive to chemicals, heavy metals, foods, and that kept cycling on itself. So what I had to do at first was reclaim the flow I already had before I got Lyme. And that was through diet, lifestyle, that was through supplements and detoxing. You know, some of these protocols I used and created to help me detox the inflammatory triggers out of my system so I could stabilize. And then once I stabilized, it was how do I open up a channel to get more flow from up here, from that fifth layer down. And that’s when I started looking at my triggers. Like every time I had an emotional trigger of some kind, I would stop and say, why am I feeling that way? At first, I’d recognize it as my responsibility. It’s always me. It was not somebody else. Right, so it was something within me that was misaligned. And then I’d backward engineer it in what matter of speaking to figure out where it came from. 

So I would first say, okay, I’m feeling some kind of discomfort. So that’s me, what am I feeling? And I’d just start asking myself, why am I feeling that? What and why essentially, until I figured out what the story was. Well, I had this story. Well where did that story come from? And then I’d regress myself to a point where I’d get to, the point of origin with that story was, which is where that belief system was set in that fourth layer. And once I could get enough information around that story, it would just essentially numb or dissolve the charge, emotional charge around what that was triggering. And I would get this aha moment, this perceptual aha. I get it. Oh, my God. That’s what it was. And that’s when I would say I’d pop a truth bubble. 

So I’d say in this fifth layer, the universal truth layer, all these universal truths we’re here to experience as humans are trapped in these bubbles. And each bubble has a certain amount of flow in it. And every time you get an aha moment, you’d pop that bubble and all that flow goes down to your baseline and increases your baseline flow, level of flow per system permanently. So if you experience all the truths, say that, let’s assume there’s 6,000 universal truths just to put a number around it to make it, you know, comprehensible. If you experienced all of them, you pretty much have achieved enlightenment and you exit this matrix, so to speak. And otherwise the more you experience, the more flow you have, the more you can access and experience more. 

So it takes flow to get flow. And what I ended up doing was systematically finding my triggers backward, you know, regressing myself, to figure out where they came from, having these perceptual shifts, these aha moments, popping these truth bubbles, increasing my baseline of flow, and doing that over and over again until my immune system actually had enough flow to put myself, until I became asymptomatic essentially because my immune system was, became higher than Lyme. I mean, it became, it put itself on top of it, so it could manage it better versus Lyme overwhelming my immune system. So it was really through this process, I mean obviously I continued to detox and do the stuff I could on the physical level, but the thing that pushed me over the edge was that, and you know, and I could tell you how, well, what are those things I did essentially? That’s kind of, that’s kind of an interesting fun story too.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, that’s important. What I want to point out to people is that but the dance is often personal in the sense that what works for one of us can guide, but it does, it’s not necessarily going to be the same because we, you know, we just hear differently, and we move differently to information, and our belief systems are much different. You know, just like our immune systems are much different. I mean, that I think is what people have to understand is that chronic illness, and I think I probably say this every time, in each one of these episodes, this phrase will come in there is chronic illness is a disease of you. It’s your individuality that is being expressed.

Acute illness usually has a lot to do with the trigger of the event, but once it becomes chronic, once it’s with you for six months, eight months, a year, now we’re dealing with the dance that you’re immune. Your physical, energetic, you know, you know, emotional, perceptual body, that’s the story that it is making, you know? And that’s where the work really is. You know, healers, doctors, we can guide, but it’s that internal thing that’s really gonna bring you to health and all. And that’s the beauty of the work that you are teaching us today is that it’s restoring that individual responsibility in a very open manner, you know? And so I’m really, at least that’s the part that I’m really hearing from you is that there’s not one way to do this. It’s just about awareness and following that is really important. But so, so what are the steps that you did though with that caveat in mind? How can people–

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, I mean, so I guess what I was sharing was kind of the mechanics, like a framework of the mechanics of what happens, you know, between these layers and how you’ve engaged each of those layers, you know, is very novel and custom to the person, right? So for me, for example, you know, for me to tap into flow, I play the piano, and, you know, the more I play the piano, the better I felt, because it was bringing me a present. It was, you know, something about the music and just kind of not having, you know, there’s a lot of more nuances in the framework I was telling you about, but not having expectations, not, you know, allowing yourself to just kind of be open and free. You know, freedom is, there are these things that trigger what I would call a more persistent state of flow versus acute state of flow, like, you know, the flow state, the peak performance modes were more persistent. 

Curiosity is one of those things. You know, being present, but you can’t be present all the time. But you could be curious. You can be compassionate, selfless acts, humility, gratitude, like those things are actually more permanent triggers of flow. So when I was playing the piano, I would just sit there and just play. No expectations, no, you know, no one to please. I was just grateful that I had fingers and, you know, keys to strike, and I would just feel better. So the more I did that, I realized, wow, maybe there’s something around music. At least for me, it was music that could help me get better. So I started, I put a show together to experiment with this. I put a show together called “Flow,” which was like yoga mixed with Cirque du Soleil to my piano concert. So I pulled a cast together of like 14 aerialists, acrobats, dancers, musicians, singers, and composed a show that turned yoga into a performance art. It’s like a 90 minute off-Broadway show. It was that, we performed at performing arts centers.

It had a very Cirque-like flare to it, and it was a totally new concept. And mind you, I’ve never done a performance like that. Never put a show together like that. Especially for a ticketed audience in a public venue like a, you know, like the Orlando Performing Arts Center. So it was all novel for me, but the novelty was fueling me. I was like, oh, this is cool. This is new. There’s also a lot of nervousness like, oh my God, what if I disappoint a bunch of people? But, you know, when you’re in the flow, you don’t think about that ’cause you’re super present. So within about two and a half months, we had, I went from composing an entire 90-minute new set of, you know, compositions that we would perform to, trained pretty much, there was only one, two experienced performers. Everyone else was kind of new, so helped train and choreograph them. So it was a fully novel experience, not just for me, but for everybody for the most part. And we did our first performance. It sold out, and every, I mean, it was a hit, and we had two standing ovations. 

It was just something that was like totally unexpected. I remember feeling so full while we were doing our final bow, like not knowing what to do with myself, like this is something I’ve never imagined would happen and came off of that, and it was the first time I could meditate cause my brain settled for the first time. I had so much life force flowing through me that it stabilized my entire body where I could actually meditate. Cause before I couldn’t meditate anymore because the soft tissue in my brain was just going haywire. Actually, many times it would send me, it would like send me in the opposite direction, put me in a downward spiral into anxiety and depression, if I meditated too long. So I had to use other methods like sound to help relax my brain or, you know, or focus. Like I had to focus on a task to get myself present, but sitting like a seated meditation wasn’t helpful. 

So, so yeah, so then I did a, we did a three-month run to this, and by the end of that three-month run, I remember the final bow, November 7th in 2015. That’s when I realized I was asymptomatic from Lyme, and I didn’t have any more symptoms. And that’s why I moved back to the west coast to continue where I left off in life. But in that process, you know, I found that that music like the playing the music, and I improvised half of those shows in terms of the music, and the other half was framed, you know, for the performers to know what their cues were, but bringing the audience into the flow, ’cause what I did is I’d have them do these exercises with me before we started. I had them breathe with me, so we’re synchronized. I’d have them do a giant ohm in the theater with me so we’re harmonized. 

I’d have them close their eyes and meditate for a minute, just so they’re all present. And that created this connection. And then that connection fueled my improvisation and kind of fueled my composition or informed it. And then that informed the performers, and the performers were received by the audience. And we created a group flow dynamic that way in that setting in a live show performance format. And that was really cool, and that that feedback loop was amplifying the amount of life force, the amount of flow I was receiving.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Engr. Rave Mehta

And that’s what I think accelerated my recovery within three months.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

What I find so intriguing about that, and I think it has something to, I mean, it has a lot to do with who you are as a being, but also as some of this process is that, you know, ’cause we see so many people, you know, you think of so many actors and comedians who need that moment, but can’t really eat it. You know? I mean like they, it’s like chocolate to them rather than sustaining food. if you know what I’m saying. Like they go out there, they perform, they feel alive and well, but as soon as the applause stops, oh God, hold on a fraction of a moment. Here, technical difficulties.

Engr. Rave Mehta

It happens.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And flow, no, we just don’t want to, we don’t want to have the power go off in the middle, okay, so there’ll be a little, okay. But you know, but that’s the thing, that’s what really intrigues me is that you, and from the first time I heard your story is that you were able to eat this as real nourishment rather than as just ego enhancement or reducing the pain transiently. And do you have any insight into that? I mean, have you ever thought about that versus, you know, ’cause I’m sure you’ve seen lots of performers who are in that state. They live for the moment they’re on stage, and then they’re kind of half dead afterwards. And that’s where I think a lot of the alcoholism and drug abuse comes in the performing industry ’cause they somehow, they don’t sustain it. They don’t let it feed them.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right, no, no, you’re right. So I mean the digestibility of accessing, tapping into flow and absorbing it, and then, you know, like digesting that flow so it actually has a persistent effect on your physiology and your body, your mind and spirit. You know, that has a lot to do with that third layer, that mental/emotional layer, right? So the mental/emotional layer is that fear and trust layer. So with me, because this wasn’t my line of business, this was something novel and new and kind of like a fun, playful project that I was experimenting with, it wasn’t, I wasn’t basing my livelihood or my identity on this thing. It was purely experimental. It allowed me to stay present and just enjoy like I’m playing in a sandbox, and you know, when kids play, they’re usually present, and when they leave the playground, you know, they’re doing something else, but their identity has nothing to do, they’re not thinking about what they were doing on the playground. They’re just moved on to the next thing. 

Where a lot of the performers, people in the performance industry and the film industry and the entertainment industry, you know, there’s a lot of expectations set around how this defines them. Like this is my identity, and if this doesn’t work or I don’t get received well, or, you know, whatnot, then my being, resultantly is less. You know, there’s some correlation to their being which they correlate to their identity, which they correlate to their work. And you know, that’s not true in just entertainment. That’s true for anyone. Hedge fund, you know, performance.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, it doesn’t matter what you do.

Engr. Rave Mehta

And yeah, whatever. The close coupling of an identity to the work ends up triggering these expectations and attachments that are counterproductive, so I spent 15,

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, it constricts the flow.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I mean, I can just feel it in the body. It’s like you have a corset on instead of having an open system.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s very, yeah, thank you. That’s a very, I hadn’t thought of it that way, but that makes perfect sense. Too much identification.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, I’ll expand on that a little bit ’cause it’s interesting. I spent 15 years researching fear, and one of the things I came up with, so when I researched fear, I would jump out of planes, swim with sharks, I’d do all these crazy things just to understand the difference in what I was thinking and how I felt when I was safe, compared to what I felt like when I was in danger, and I identify these three pillars of fear. The first is time. So I’ve found that if I’m, you know, fear always exists in the future. What if this happens? What if that happens? A lot of times it’s triggered by the past, but always experienced in the present, right? So I found if I brought myself present, then that first pillar of fear would go away. There’s no room for fear to exist if you’re present. 

The second pillar I found is like, if you, but you can’t always be in the present, you gotta plan for the future. You gotta do things sometimes and put yourself in the future, and it’s fun to be in the future sometimes. So if you’re out of the present, then the next pillar was attachment. And I found out, you know, there, we have attachments to things, whether it’s a person, place, thing, object, ideal, you know, or some future version of ourselves. And if we have, you know, the attachment’s not the problem. You know, we need attachments. Those are sensory relationships, and we need relationships to grow. Those are the feedback loops to help us identify and understand and grow. But the nature of the attachment was varied, right? So you can have a very rigid attachment, like connecting you originally to this, in this case, to your identity or this version of your identity. And you could have, and, you know, if there’s stress on both you and this attachment. 

There are forces in life, push and pull on you, you and this object of your attachment. And it creates stress in that beam. And then if there’s enough opposite forces, they’ll snap that beam, you know, Slingshot away from each other. And then it was a miserable experience because the whole thing was stressful. Where if you shift that attachment to what I call an orbital attachment, where you use gravity to keep these things in your orbit. And, you know, if these life forces push on you, they’ll just move you around each other’s orbit. There’s no stress in the system. And the difference between the two is letting go essentially. So instead of when I’m in a rigid attachment, I’m focusing on the object, and what I want that to look like and be and how I want it to perform relative to me. But if I reverse that, and I let go of that and focus on me, what I wanna be, what I wanna become and what not, or my growth, my own growth, you know, things that make me joyful and happy, then the right things will gravitate, and the wrong things will move away, and everything will just stay in a natural state based on your own resonance. And without any effort, just completely effortless, completely flexible. So just that mindset shift of letting go.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

So I like what you were saying. So it’s really focusing on the blessing of your own joy. You know, that’s something that, again, that’s not really how we often think of things in this culture. You know, we often think of things like how we’re going to make somebody else happy, how we’re gonna do the right thing. And it’s almost like we don’t trust that we can depend that our own joy to be okay.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly, right, and you know, when you’re in joy, you’re present. Joy by actual definition is presence, right? So when you’re experiencing joy, you’re present. Therefore, it goes to the first pillar. You get rid of the first pillar, but, yeah, that’s exactly right. Pleasure and joy, you know, are the ultimate experiences of presence and ultimate expressions of presence, right? And then, and it also, it makes you feel more connected. And another word for flow, when I think of flow is connection, is feeling connected, right? And that happens when you feel present. And then this third pillar is kind of an attachment to specific outcomes, and a very special case, but an attachment to a specific outcome, which we call expectations, right? So we have this like formed idea of what we want this goal to how this goal to manifest. 

You know, it’s like, I wanna be the number one comedian in the world, or, you know, in the context of entertainment, you know, I want to sell out this, you know, this theater. You know, we have these expectations, but these expectations are based on these goals. And the goals are based on intentions. And if you don’t have alignment between the intention and the goal, then the expectations will always be off. But even if you have an expectation, which you need, you need some kind of, something to anchor and pull you forward, propel you towards something. But what I found is if I shifted my expectation to a preference, it opened me up to so much more energy because if I had an expectation, and I didn’t meet it, there’s no real joy that’s gained because you expected it. But if you didn’t, there’s a lot of disappointment, there’s only down, there’s mostly downside, right? But if I shifted it to a preference, it’s just a subtle mindset shift. I preferred this outcome, but I’m open to other outcomes. Then if you achieve it, there’s a lot more joy, which then brings you back to presence. And if you don’t achieve it, it’s not the end of the world. There are still other ways that the universe and other things that could enter the system to still serve that goal or even more importantly, serve that intention that you just haven’t thought of.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And that allows the serendipity of life to be in, you can be more interactive with whatever’s being presented to you.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, ’cause you’ll actually have the space to notice that something different has happened.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly, that’s exactly right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Rather than I didn’t get it, and that’s all you can think of.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right, that’s exactly right. And I think, they all loop around ’cause then that once again brings you to being present, right? So you’re, so it’s all connected. And if you take down any one of the three pillars, fear goes away. And if you take away fear, you stop constraining your flow. You move into a state of trust, so that it opens you up to more flow. So fear was the number one thing I found that was the biggest flow, life force constrainer, and anything that moves you out of these fear states or expressions of fear, whether it’s jealousy, anger, you know, sadness, depression, any of these, any negative emotion, that’s, you know, essentially all negative emotions rooted in fear. So any negative emotion, if you can move from there to a state of trust, which are all positive emotions, like gratitude, humility, courage, joy, happiness, hope, you know, those are expansive emotions that expand your pipeline to access more flow. And then the fear and constraining emotions that can strain your pipeline and access more flow. So it goes back to, it’s perceptual. It’s always perceptual.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, and it’s just, again an interesting thing is how many people who I know who are very, you know, who are very aware of the energetic levels feel that, and we see this actually that the bugs, you know, the different from mycotoxins, which really isn’t alive, but has, is a messenger of something that was alive. And, you know, Babesia, Bartonella, Lyme, they actually produce emotional states in us that aren’t ours.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And when you’re ill, that over identification with that state keeps you absolutely locked down. And it doesn’t allow you to enter this, to even imagine that you can enter any expanded state. And, you know, so, and it’s not even yours because yours, I mean, I just love this concept. You know, yours is the opportunity. Gratitude and joy is something that we should be able to access. We should, that we can access at any moment.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

If we can put down our stories, but not so easy when we’re suffering. I mean, to be fair, that’s what I said before, these are wonderful things, but you know, when you’re drowning in the midst of your pain, it takes a lot of will, I think, I would imagine to be, or something, something has to transform.

Engr. Rave Mehta

I’ll say what happens, what I’ve noticed, and you’re a hundred percent right. It’s, what I think there’s a universal mechanism that’s built into us that it takes letting go and surrendering, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Okay.

Engr. Rave Mehta

And your body, the universe will somehow weaken you so much to the point where you have no choice left but to let go and surrender. And then your body can regenerate. Because for me, I had such big ambitions, had so much energy, so much flow, had so many ideas. I had a very specific identity. I was trying to, my identity goal was so big and unending. It was something I would never reach. It would be perpetually, it was never enough for me. I was, there was this big identity hole that I was trying to, this void that I was trying to fill. And I was doing so many things successfully, but unless I hit a brick wall and fell to the point where I had no more energy to hold on to that ambition, I would never have seen what it was. And it was essentially this perpetual mouse wheel going.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right, you never would have eaten the applause.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly. I was running to stand, I was basically running to stand still. And when I hit that brick wall, it forced me to let go of everything. And that’s when everything became clear, and it realigned me, and it allowed me to grow at a much, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually at a much higher state than I could have ever done if I had continued to be healthy in that state. So I think surrender and letting go is, letting go is a act of surrender. And that’s ultimately where we all lead, which then leads us to humility and gratitude, right? And then gratitude is that highest expression of, one of the highest expressions of truth, of trust.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, you know, what this reminds me of, I always say, and I think I have failed it. I wanna learn from the finger of the Lord rather than the two by four. And, you know, unfortunately most of us require the two by four. That’s why I think people always talk about the incredible regenerative nature of loss and illness. You know, though none of us want that. We want to get it out, I would much rather retain this by listening to what you’re saying and acting on it in life than having to go through that dark night. I mean, it truly is a dark night of the soul what you had to go through and what people who have chronic illness have to go through. But what’s wonderful is to see that, how well you’ve laid out the path because I love this. ‘Cause it’s accessible.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, you know, when you say that, it’s interesting. What I’ve found is people learn through two methods. Most things in the world are binary ’cause of this dual, duality system that we live in, right? So you either learn through pain or you learn through awareness, and sometimes it takes enough pain to develop awareness. But once you get enough awareness, you can start leveraging awareness to gain more awareness without the pain. But, you know, and ever since we’re, you know, a baby, right, until we hit a wall or fall on the ground, we know not to do that again ’cause we have the pain feedback loop.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right.

Engr. Rave Mehta

But you don’t have to use pain for eternity. You just, you, sometimes we need enough pain to create boundaries that we could then expand from. And then awareness is what expands our boundaries. So you just need a starting point. And that’s what, that’s where being in that feedback loop of pain is.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right, and just getting more, more aware. I mean, that awareness is the thing, because you don’t, that way you don’t have to, you know, like touch the stove, you just get close. You feel the heat.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly, that’s the awareness, that’s the awareness. But you knew that at some point that if you touched the stove, something must’ve burned you to know not to touch the stone to show that reaction. That’s why kids do touch, eat everything, just to know how it makes them feel so they discover their boundaries. But at some point when you’ve done it, you know, the awareness will tell you don’t do that again or do it differently, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Hopefully do it, hopefully do it differently. Right, so just going back, the flow of the music. I mean, ’cause for you, music seemed to have been, you know, that, I don’t know. I don’t want to say magic, but that strongest, that really strong piece of this. How do you see that flow going through your life? I mean, was something, was music very important to you when you were younger?

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, that’s a good question. So what I did is after I did my live stage show, you know, the one that had a cast of 14 people, and we had these big performing arts center gigs, and we had audiences that would observe and enjoy the show. It was an external stimulation, you know, for the audience. I realized that I couldn’t really carry that cast everywhere I wanted to, and every time I felt like I wanted to play. So, you know, ’cause there’s a big management effort. You gotta book it. You gotta commit to it. You gotta know you’re gonna be available. You got to make sure everyone else is available. Unless you’re on a tour with a committed, you know, crew, but this is, this wasn’t, this was, these people have day jobs. I mean, some were lawyers. Some were yoga teachers. Some were, you know, it was, you know, this was something we did together as something that’d be fun and new and creative. 

So what I ended up doing was inverting my show, and I called it “Flow, the Experience,” which was where I’d do these piano sound baths, where it’s only me, I would show up. I’d do performances here in San Francisco at Grace Cathedral and all around the country and did a bunch of international shows as well, where I’ll show up, I’ll play for about 45 minutes to an hour. People lay down around my piano, and then they’ll just drop into a meditative flow state during that time, almost like an extended Savasana to yoga to my music. And I would improvise every show. So I never knew what I was playing until I sat at the piano and felt the energy of everybody around me. And then their dropping in was my feedback loop for me to drop into flow. 

Because for me to play and improvise that long of a set, I had to be hyper present the entire time. And so that was my mechanism to continue to heal and also now express and use music as a medium of my energy to help heal others, and the information and the feedback I would get back, I would receive after a lot of these concerts would be, you know, it’d tend to be in one of four buckets. One is they got the deepest sleep they’ve ever had, and these are people that can’t sleep. So it finally got to the point where they got a deep sleep. Another bucket was, wow, I felt like I was, I was dancing across a cosmos, like they’re on some psychedelic or it brought them back to some psychedelic experience they may have had in the past, you know, or some memory or some like, you know, someone told me their cat passed away. 

They relieved their entire life with their cat during that time, you know. Or, you know, someone, you know, the third bucket would be this emotional trauma release. I had a person tell me that they realized that they just let go of 15 years of trauma from their father passing away through that experience. And then this fourth bucket is some physiological change shift or pain going away or symptoms going away from some disease. So I remember a woman that had a shoulder surgery, and the pain was so intense that that was the first time after the sound bath that she’d never, she didn’t feel pain from that shoulder anymore. 

And I’ve had people come to me and say, hey, well, I’ve had this disease or symptom or whatever for, you know, 10 years or so, and for the first time it’s gone. You know, so a whole variety of physical illnesses, ailments and diseases all of a sudden were relieved themselves or released itself. And it was interesting to hear all these stories. And I found the correlation was they were just accessing so much flow that is moving and pushing things around their body and their minds that it allowed to flush a lot of things out that were stuck, and doing that together exponential, was a compounding effect for everybody to drop in and feel it, you know, feed off each other’s energy to drop in deeper.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh yeah, yeah, you know, what’s that line from “The Agnostic Gospel,” you know, two or three or more are gathered in my name, you know, I mean, just it’s, yeah. The, I mean, you know, I think, yeah. You know, that’s why people go to sports events and concerts, and, but you know, but those are not aimed, you know. I mean, like they’re big energy, but they don’t necessarily move us in the direction of health. They just, it’s a little bit like the standup comic. He gets the applause, and it feels really good in the moment, but it doesn’t necessarily feed the body, you know?

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And what sounds like, but your ability to tune in to just the energy just presence is helping engender that and train that in the rest of the people. I mean, and it’s so cool that feedback loop. I mean, I’m sure you’ve noticed that depending on where you were, your energy was different.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Oh, yeah, and it’s different every time. And what I’ve noticed is what I’m really enabling people to do, is going back to what we were talking earlier is to let go, and I’m using the music to help them let go ’cause the first 10 minutes or 15 minutes, they’re probably still thinking and, you know, doing things. But at some point, the music takes over to the point where they just all of a sudden drop everything. And they’re now just gone. It’s almost like, it’s almost like, you know, doing plant medicine and, you know, experiences where at some point you don’t have the energy to continue to analyze, and you just stop. And then your mind stops, then everything drops, and now you drop in. And then when, that’s when, when you let go is when all the magic happens, right? That’s the surrender is when your body allows itself to reshift and reorganize itself to its most optimal state, you know, given the amount of time.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That frontal cortex stops being in a conversation with what we call your limbic system. And that’s the only thing you know is, how are we gonna be smarter at survival?

Engr. Rave Mehta

Right, exactly. Exactly.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Instead of just being. Being is, you know, I have to say, I guess there’s something about our culture, and, you know, I’m never certain, is it culture or toxin load that’s made just being so hard, you know, in this, at this time in our universe or in our world, you know, in America, you know?

Engr. Rave Mehta

I would say both. I would say both. One’s the feedback loop for the other, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes.

Engr. Rave Mehta

You know, I think the, I mean, culture is, I mean, they’re two sides of the same coin, right? The, not toxins, but just the things we develop, toxins are a result of human progress the way we perceive it. Right? So if we, you know, we need to like create more food than we genetically modify them, and now we have pesticides that are invading all our systems for the idea of helping the greater good so to speak, but that doesn’t always work. In fact, it does the opposite in a lot of cases. So human development and growth of this human race and species has side effects, and these side effects are toxins. And then the toxins in that human growth or that species development reinforms culture. You know, so the opposite of it is like staying, you know, as indigenous people, you know, would not scale as well, right? 

So there’s some balance between the two, and making sure we’re in alignment with nature and natural systems, while we can still continue to grow and expand our potential as a species. You know, we wouldn’t be, you know, landing rockets, you know, like SpaceX does, you know, and going to the Mars, whatever, if we stayed indigenous, but we could also not go all the way to the other side and just assume that, oh, any kind of technology is going to benefit humanity. That’s not true either.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh, yeah, no, the technological fix, I mean, ’cause that is really the curse of our lives, is that so many people, especially in my generation really think that we can fix anything, you know, and no, you know. I mean, we are, I think we’re coming up to the limits of what we can, you know, we can do work arounds, but if we absolutely forget that we live, that what makes us joyful and alive is connection. Then we know, then we have to keep going back to connection and not just fixing. ‘Cause fixing is linear, you know? I mean, we’re great engineers. That’s how our, it’s funny how well our minds adapt to the engineering model of life. But, you know, but again, but indigenous people tend to live in a much more rhythmic sense of life. And somehow the engineering part seems to just have become so dominant that, I mean, that’s where my brain is stuck most of the time, you know? You come in, I wanna fix it rather than see where it can be held. You know, I guess that’s what women always complain is that us men wanna just fix problems rather than just listen.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, listening is fixed, you know? Heart-centered listening is one of the biggest.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Heart-centered listening, yes. Well, that’s a hard lesson for those of us who just wanna.

Engr. Rave Mehta

That’s ’cause we’re, I’d agree. That’s ’cause we’re trained that way from our educational institutions, right? We’re trained to fix things, to solve problems, right? We’re not trained to be. You know, we’re not, you know, if you go back to the technology argument, you know, I’m a big fan of both sides, indigenous and nature-based, you know, civilizations as well as advanced civilizations. And, you know, but it’s a matter of technology. But I would say that, you know, being a fan of advancing technology, I’d say that what’s missed though, in most advanced technology that exists on this planet is our human bodies and minds, and this thing that, this vehicle that we’re possessing and running around in is far more advanced than anything we’ve ever created or will be able to create in the next, you know, set of centuries or millennia. So if we start ignoring this thing, this technology that already has all the built-in sensors and feedback loops in there, then we’re missing the boat here. We’re thinking we’re enhancing this, where in fact this machine can already do so much that we haven’t even tapped into yet.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, that’s where we get stuck because we forget what we can do scientifically. We can be scientific and very good at it if it’s something we create, but when something that is in nature, the best we get are interesting stories about how it works. I mean, that is, you know, as you experienced, when you did your journey, going through all the various healing modalities, each one has a beautiful story attached to it. As does, you know, Western conventional medicine, we have a story. The thing is, they’re all stories. They’re our best approximations. And if we hold them gently, we can use them. But when we get rigid and think it’s like building a bridge, we don’t do so well. And you know, but it just keeps coming back down to honor the physical body, but, you know, remember the music, you know? ‘Cause we just don’t do that now. I mean, really the first thing that goes in school is art and music education. Waste of time.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, and it’s just too bad.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And, you know, your journey is a great example of how this is what it means to be alive. You know, it’s our creative natures.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, and that’s the culture we should be nurturing is the creative potential of us. And, you know, even bridges are designed to have flexibility in it, otherwise they don’t work. You know, coming from somebody that builds bridges, like we have to design, you know, different anchor points to make sure the whole bridge has flexibility because there’s so many different forces pushing on it in all directions. So an inflexible bridge breaks, and flexible bridges stay, so, yeah, flexibility is, and, you know, it goes back to that attachment, second pillar attachment, going from rigid to orbital, flexible, you know, that’s important in all things.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

All things, yeah. And I have to be careful ‘because I was about to enter into the world of politics, but I’m not going there, okay.

Engr. Rave Mehta

No, that’d be another two hours.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

No, and maybe not for this audience. But I would just wrap it up with, I mean, I just wanna hear a little bit more, how could people learn more about what you have done and how you look at the world and healing?

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, that’s a good question ’cause I haven’t formally put myself out there as a platform around this. I’ve helped people. I’ve been approached by people. You know, I’ll just say my Twitter is, and then my Instagram and my Facebook are all @RaveMehta or R-A-V-E-M-E-H-T-A, Rave Mehta. You can message me at any one of those platforms. I am writing a book on this, on all of this, a trilogy in fact “From Fear to Flow to Perception.” So that is in the works. My piano sound baths I do, you know, that’s also, once again, you can find me on Facebook.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, but those are, some of them are available and really, really worth listening to, yes.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, yeah. They’re on SoundCloud. They’re on, I’ve recently become a teacher for Insight Timer. So some of my sound baths are on the meditation app called Insight Timer. So you can find some of them there, but I’m actually now working towards organizing this into something more formal and accessible and hopefully helpful to a larger audience. So that’s my goal for this year after COVID.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, okay. Well, I think hopefully for today, I mean, this is just an inspiration for people to most importantly, never give up hope. I know it’s so hard, and you know, one thing that I just wanna throw in there, and one of the most difficult things, especially in, after this year of COVID, year and a half of COVID now, is, I just wanna honor, is how difficult it is for people with limited financial resources because one of, you know, ’cause everything that people try outside of their own selves. And I guess this is, this is probably the next message of hope is that there still is that place in inner quiet and listening to music and finding that inner inquiry, you know. I mean, just is it true? I mean, who was, I am blocking on that nice author who wrote that wonderful book, “Is it True?” You know, just when you’re doing that self inquiry and like, you know, you get lost in the anger and the blame, and really is it true? You know, how much is just, we’ve all contributed and forgiveness. And so I said, even if you can’t afford the next greatest best therapy, going back inwards and listening to what you’ve been saying today I think is a great start, and who knows might be the source of your healing. You know, better than the next ID therapy.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Thank you for that. Thank you, and yeah, I think the last thing I would say is, you know, let’s say hope is your bridge to healing, and ultimately when you heal, the thing that happens is to heal, you just have to let go and surrender. And what are you letting go of? Fear, doubt and judgment.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes, well, I thank you. That works for all of us, whether we’re fighting chronic disease or just living life.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Yeah, exactly.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

So thank you, thank you.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Exactly, that’s the universal law.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Thank you so much.

Engr. Rave Mehta

Okay, all right, thank you.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

A pleasure to talk to you.

Engr. Rave Mehta

All right, you too, thank you, Eric, bye.