The Use Of High-Power Laser Light Therapy In Chronic Pain Management

Jim Ohneck

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on today, greatly greatly appreciate it.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah. So you had a lot of experience in the medical device Development industry. How long ago did you really foster this this love for laser therapy that you’ve been working on now so greatly? 

Jim Ohneck

Well my love for lasers goes back quite a long time back to the mid-80s in my experience in the ophthalmology market where they used. Yeah, Glazer’s back in the day for eye surgery And from that I’ve always had this, this passion for lasers and optics. And so my quest for laser therapy really started 20 years ago, is when I first started developing and working and conceiving this idea of high-powered laser therapy.

Tom McCarthy

And were you thinking about using it for pain 20 years ago? Is that, is that what you were looking at?

Jim Ohneck

So I was looking at both pain and wound care. And of course back then we started out in the veterinarian industry. So we were treating horses and small animals is how, how we really get started. But the focus was both treating chronic pain and wounds like the Cuban assaulters.

Tom McCarthy

And when you started, when you started seeing the potential for treating chronic pain, what was your thought process in creating the company that you now have currently?

Jim Ohneck

So when I first started the technology for lasers, it was hard to get a high powered lasers. Lasers were anywhere from a half a watt to one watt. And my thought being in the medical industry for so long was you want to make The equipment easy to use. You want to make procedures short because people have time constraints and you want to make them effective. So you don’t have to have the patient coming back to 30 or 40 treatments that just doesn’t make sense for the patient to strain on everybody. And so I really had those goals to say kind of create a technology that makes short treatment times it’s efficient to use isn’t gonna break the bank, can be put into the hands of a lot of people. And that was kind of the underscoring of the technology goals. But the treatment goals were how can I treat people, how can I get them off of narcotic medications? That’s a terrible thing that we have right now in the world with people taking narcotic meds for pain. And I just always thought there must be a better way. And so this really was the onus behind laser therapy.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah. And I love how you’ve taken laser therapy and actually created devices like you said, that don’t break the bank and we’ll talk about your devices later on, but but teach us a little bit, how does laser therapy help with pain? You know, we’ve all seen the little, you know, most people are familiar with like the little laser pointers, but we’re talking about something much more powerful. What is the mechanism of action? How does pointing a laser at an area where there’s pain, help relieve that pain? What’s going on with that laser? And the interaction with the body?

Jim Ohneck

So that’s a great question. People do think of laser pointers or Star Wars. So it’s either too little or too much. And so here when you take a certain frequency of the laser in this case a 980 nanometers is how the wavelength is measured and you put it into the body. What happens is it stimulates the mitochondria to produce identity triphosphate or a. T. P. And this is the body’s own natural healing mechanism. And so it helps produce a tpu. Normally produce it from breathing oxygen. You produce it from eating food. And now we’re adding a third source. So you increase that storehouse of energy. And this helps the body heal in its own natural way. Plus the absorption of the laser light into the tissue creates this warming vessels dilating effect. So the patient gets this comfortable warming feeling where they’re being treated that helps relax them. That helps act as a pain reliever as well get release of nitric oxide. This also helps as a vessel dilator. It also aids in the reduction of inflammation. So you combine these elements together. This is what helps the body heal and the pain go down. But the primary mechanism of action, as you say, is the stimulation of the mitochondria to produce A T. P. 

Tom McCarthy

Well that’s really cool though because that’s more than just relieving pain. That’s actually making that tissue healthier and bringing more energy and all sorts of other benefits in addition to pain relief to right.

Jim Ohneck

Absolutely. This is the key the you know this is the thing we just don’t treat a symptom we actually heal. And so drugs mask a symptom they don’t necessary solve the problem and I’m not suggesting that the laser cures everything, but it does help the body heal and maybe can in some instances help heal the underlying conditions that lead to the pain or at least improve the underlying conditions so that the pain level is lower.

Tom McCarthy

Very cool. Does it even help with fatigue? Like muscles that are fatigued and and you know, maybe not in pain but you know, a tense type fatigue. Does it help with that type thing to?

Jim Ohneck

It helps relax the muscles, especially I see a lot of people that have tense backs or shoulders like this from using their computers all day. And so when you laser their shoulders you can just watch them drop and just see that relaxation and then all of a sudden the neck pain goes away and they start to feel feel better and more comfortable.

Tom McCarthy

So what are some of the, what are some of the conditions that lasers, your lasers in particular are really good for chronic pain obviously. Are there any other types of things that it can be used for?

Jim Ohneck

Well sure, it can be used in chronic and acute pain conditions, Soft soft tissue injuries, arthritis, you know, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic a these types of chronic pain conditions, but it’s also very good for neuropathy and this is very exciting. So diabetics get neuropathy and their fingers and their feet where they lose feeling and the laser really really helps with us. And you know I’ve had patients tell me they haven’t had feeling in their feet in years and after laser treatments they suddenly regained this feeling in their feet. And this is a very exciting thing for them because you know, you can imagine not having any feeling in your foot. In fact it’s so dramatic when you treat somebody’s foot that’s had neuropathy and hasn’t had feeling in it, they think you’re tickling their foot, the light hits the nerve and they think stop tickling my foot, just the light hitting the nerve.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah, my father in law who passed away about five years ago was a thin guy but he was a type two diabetic. And towards the end of his life he had very bad neuropathy where literally he was in hospice but he would be in bed like screaming that you know something was biting his foot or you know that type thing and hard to imagine, you know because he was an FBI guy, tough guy. But you know this really bothered him, I wish we would have known about laser back then. What does it do to the nerve? How does it help with neuropathy when you apply laser to the nerve? 

Jim Ohneck

It seems to help stimulate the nerve and and and wake it up and make new connections to it. So if I’m treating somebody for example that is maybe has M. S. And I’m treating them up in their neck? You can actually watch their toes curl. So you get this profound reaction that occurs where the energy is traveling through the nerve system. And so you get this this I would say waking up and re connection and you’re stimulating of course with this this a P 80 P. Production in and around the area and that affect the last for quite some time. And so through multiple treatments they actually get really continued improvement without the regression.

Tom McCarthy

That’s awesome. Alright so it tends to stay two without the regression very very tight.

Jim Ohneck

I have one patient that you know, he had very severe neuropathy and his feeder have been fine now for several years. So this is really exciting to see this.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah. Now I know you have in your company you’ve developed two units, you have a unit that is used for by practitioners and one of the cool things. Again, not breaking the bank because I know some of these units are you know, $100,000 or more. You have a very attractive price point for yours. And then you have a unit that and and and as you mentioned like some non practitioners are getting that unit right that and bringing into their home and using it. But then you also have a very affordable unit for anybody to use and I’m really excited about that too. I’m gonna get I’m gonna be getting one of those and I want to start using that. but how long typically? And I know it probably depends on which unit you’re using, How long is a laser treatment? How much time does it take to treat an area that might have pain.

Jim Ohneck

So for the professional unit, it’s usually on average, a 10 minute treatment. So it’s very quick for the home unit. The unit turns on for 30 minutes and then shuts itself off. So it’s a 30 minute treatment and you can use the home unit more frequently. It’s not as powerful and be because it can be used in the home, you don’t need certification for it, you don’t need goggles for. And so it’s meant to be used on a frequent basis when you’re sitting down, relaxing. Kind of. The brief story behind it was I was treating an organist who had arthritis in her hands, is treating her with a laser. And she said gee you know, jim you’re bringing this laser big laser into treat my hands can make something that I can just use at home, but I’m sitting at night, you know, relaxing and I said I can and so I did. And that was this little device here called the infra helios.

Tom McCarthy

Awesome.

Jim Ohneck

And so it’s the same light science that the laser works off. If it’s not it’s not as powerful but the same wavelength the same frequency. And it was meant so you could just sit in the armchair put your hand in it and set your hand in it and then just treat your hands well. Then I had somebody you know, treating their hands but they said you know my feet are sore, I’m gonna put my foot on this and their foot got better. And they said hey this thing works on my foot, what do you think about? And next thing you know the cat’s out of the bag and people are putting it on their back and they’re putting it on their knee and they’re all getting these this great results. And so now we have a little flyer that shows all the different ways that can be used in the home, you know and safely. So a lot of times the patient can go get the laser treatments from the practitioner and then once they’re done they’re better. They can take a unit home. So if they have a little bit of discomfort in a few months, they have something at home they can take out and they can use but then there are people that are using the home device that it’s like brushing their teeth, they use it every day. They wake up with a new way campaign, they put the little device on for 10 or 15 minutes and then they go on about their day.

Tom McCarthy

It can be really anywhere right on the leg on a foot. You said on your neck, your back basically you can get laser therapy in your home at a very affordable price. And use it anytime you want. Which is really really cool. I’m excited to get mine right. I think this is really, really cool. And then the other unit is it’s bigger. And so what with the home unit, what type of penetration? How far did those lasers go down into the body of the home unit? And then with the professional unit, what type of penetration? What are we looking at?

Jim Ohneck

So with the professional you can penetrate several centimeters into the body, you can get into deep muscle tissue you know into a hip, you know into a shoulder very very deep. But you know, not all pain is that deep. And so the home unit maybe only penetrates you know, one or two centimeters into the body but it’s more than sufficient for a lot of conditions. You know, your hand isn’t very thick. So it doesn’t take much energy to penetrate into your hand. And so the same with your foot you don’t have a lot of tissue around your foot. And so you can use use it for a lot of these conditions. So of course the big laser is going to penetrate further. But the wavelength the infrared wavelength is what drives the depth of penetration. It’s a longer wavelength. So it’s gonna penetrate deeper to the body but maybe just not with as much energy. Yeah, between the two units. But they both have their purpose.

Tom McCarthy

And when somebody is looking at getting laser therapy, how long does it typically take? And I know it depends on conditions, but how long does it typically take before they notice something? Is it after the first session typically or is it, you know, two or three sessions in or is it just, there really is no method to the madness?

Jim Ohneck

Oh no, there’s a, there’s clearly a method to the madness for sure. It’s a continued decrease in their pain. So if you’re familiar with the faces pain scale, the Smiley face, the frowny face pain level of 10. And so people come in and they’re at a 10 maybe from their back pain. And they get a treatment and they usually notice something after the first treatment. They’ll usually comment. Yes, I feel it’s better than what I walked in the door for sure. After the first treatment, it doesn’t mean they’re cured and they’re gonna go run a marathon but they feel better. They usually sleep better after the first night and the feeling improvement continues during the day. It’s not where you get the treatment and then five minutes later it goes away, you get the treatment and then that maybe in the afternoon you say, hey, I feel even a little bit better. So they go from a maybe a 10 to a seven and then they come in the next treatment and they say well I’m at eight it’s better. And then you treat them and they go from an eight to a six. And so I always kind of look at like say three treatments you should know is that you should notice a substantial improvement and after three treatments. And if you don’t then maybe the protocol needs to be adjusted or maybe there’s some other underlying cause that is creating the chronic inflammation that needs to be addressed as well. So for example if you’re if you have a severely herniated disc or your spine is way out of adjustment. You can do a lot. The laser will certainly help but you need the mechanical adjustment as well. And so that’s just something to keep in mind.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah so people that know a lot of people are interested right now and and checking this out, You’ve got two options. One is more of the professional version, but somebody who wants to make that investment. Could you don’t have to be a M. D. Or a chiropractor to get that unit. Is that correct?

Jim Ohneck

That’s correct. You do have to be certified to use it. So you need the role for the classification of laser is professional unit is you have to be certified by the company that sells the unit on how to use it. You have to be trained on laser safety, it’s not super complicated. We trained a lot of therapists. It was a very busy year. Last year, a lot of people have chosen this as a career path to become a laser therapist. And so it’s just that’s something that’s it’s good. It’s a hands on treatment, but they have to be certified. So there’s some theoretical training and hands on training in order to get a certification, you’re looking at anywhere from, you know, half three quarters of a day of training really become capable to use the device.

Tom McCarthy

Okay, so half half or three quarters a day. So it’s not a, you know, four weeks of training and then you can use it and you can learn it pretty quick, right?

Jim Ohneck

It’s not a semester college class. So you don’t need to, you know, you don’t really need a Biology degree during the training. We go over the biology and most people remember from their high biology, what they need to know for it, the more important is that is the hands on how you treat, how you apply it. You know, and to make sure that it’s always done in a methodical fashion, so that it’s always done the same way, this is. 

Tom McCarthy

And for practitioners that are looking to add this to their practice. One of the things that I was super impressed with was because I said, you know, look, I’m Jim. I’ve seen laser machines and they’re, you know, they’re these big, huge massive things and they cost, you know $120,000. And you said yeah, we used to charge that much for ours too, but we found ways to make it, you know, keep it super effective and powerful but not charging your as much. What are the competitive advantages with your professional unit versus these other ones that are out there in the marketplace?

Jim Ohneck

So one of our devices is pretty portable. If I’ve seen it, it’s got a little handle built into it so you can pick it up, it weighs roughly 6.5, 7.30 pounds

Tom McCarthy

30 pounds or 40 pounds or something like. 

Jim Ohneck

Or more. There are the wheels on a giant cart and it’s not good to go from room to room if you’re in a clinic. And so we tried to make it pretty portable so you can put it in a case and carry it home or carry it out into the field if you have a, you know, some type of mobile clinic that you do. So we tried to make the technology small and non threatening. We didn’t put a lot of bells, foods of whistles. There’s a theory out there that well, people pay more of the units bigger. There’s no need to make the unit bigger and it’s intimidating to the patient and it’s comforting them to use. It has a big footprint. And we said no, we want a unit that small can fit in almost any card or a little table and can be carried around, you know by a therapist and be easily set up and used and ready to go within and really in a matter of seconds. And so this is the, these are some of the design goals I’ve learned in the medical device industry over the years is what works and what doesn’t and what people complain about, you know, just something simple like a hand piece, everybody has a different opinion. And so the thought that goes into our hand piece comes from years of designing surgical instruments and devices and understanding what works over the long term. You know, sometimes the thing that looks the sexiest isn’t the most ergonomic. So we try to keep that thought process within the design.

Tom McCarthy

And then, and then the other competitive advantage, you know, not that there’s just one more, but is price right? You are much more competitive on price than these big units costing, you know, like almost like what you would pay for a small condo or something like that, right?

Jim Ohneck

Yeah, for sure it’s, you know, it’s okay to tell its prices are unit is roughly around $20,000. So, you know, fifth the cost of some of the other lasers that are out there and again, this comes from an understanding of the electronics and optics of the supply chain that drives what components go into the device and where you source things from. And I’m really proud to say our laser is built in the United States, it’s not made in Asia, it’s not made in Italy doesn’t come across the border, it’s made here in the US doesn’t mean that, you know, sheet metal parts don’t come from somewhere out of the country, but it’s made here in the States. And I think this is, it’s important, especially from a service standpoint, you know that it’s all done here locally and this is I think a very positive for us.

Tom McCarthy

So for practitioners, you know, obviously investing $20,000 versus 120,000 your return on investment and your ability to really make it make sense and even have maybe multiple units where you can be treating different people at the same time and just with the same level of impact though, right? You’re not sacrificing that you’re just getting a better deal on it. So I was really excited about that. And then, the consumer unit, which I know a lot of people are interested in, tell us about that. Is there even anything else out there like that? I’ve never seen anything like that out there on the market. Is that pretty unique?

Jim Ohneck

So it is very unique. There’s L. E. D. Devices, you see them, you know, you can go to amazon, you see all these L. E. D. Devices but they take a lot of pretty pretty L. E. D. S and they put them into a box and they say it does all sorts of things. But here the light frequency is the exact same and the design comes out of the lessons learned and the research done on the big lake. And so basically miniaturizing this. And so this home device is very small. It’s again the same wavelength and you know, it’s very lightweight, very simple to use.

Tom McCarthy

Each of those little, those little for us little dots or crystals, those are all lasers, correct?

Jim Ohneck

Those are all single wavelength light emitters. So, you know, it’s not like having a laser diode, but but it’s not an L. E. D. It’s a single wavelength light emitter. And again things look simple. But the engineering underneath the hood is quite complicated because you want this consistent power output across the surface to be equal. You know, this is what people know, they can take an elite advice and put, you know, 20 L. E. D. S and you get 20 little spots of heat on your body and you think, hey, that’s doing great. But in this case the power density is equal across the whole surface area. So you actually have a very large treatment area of the 9 80 nanometers. And again, like you said, it can be put on the arm, can be put in the, you know behind the neck. It can be set on the hand, the elbow. There’s things in the back here where velcro straps go through so that you can actually put it to your body and which put the straps around it and just hold it in place and and and watch, watch the T. V. At night work type while you’re activating it.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah, I love it now. That’s really exciting. And again, nothing else out there like it. Hey jim, how can people find out more about your devices? I think they’re phenomenal, which is why I wanted after I saw and experiencing, you know what you were doing at a for em the big alternative health conference I wanted to have you on, how can people find out more and even purchase your devices?

Jim Ohneck

They can go right to our website. It’s www.EPOCHLASERS.com. So www.EPOCHLASERS.com. And it’s epic with an oh, so you know that the whole the idea behind the name, there’s an Epic E P I C which is a had an epic burger. But then a period of time is Epic E P O ch. And so our company is Epic lasers because this is an epic point in time where we can take and move people into a new way of healing which is using white and this is the the idea behind the name. So it’s epic E P O Ch lasers. L A S E R S dot com.

Tom McCarthy

Yeah. And as I mentioned, I hope everybody can see this is a guy with a huge heart that wants to heal people and has devoted his life to developing technology that really does help people and I love what this does. I mean it stimulates a T. P. In the body, right? Which is hard to do. And and that really starts to it starts to heal tissue, it starts to relieve pain. He said you know, nitric oxide. So vessels are opening up and blood flows going all sorts of good stuff. I’m gonna get one of the home units 100%. So I’m gonna definitely do that. And I hope a lot of people, particularly if you have chronic pain or you have someone in your family that has chronic pain, give this a shot. You know, there’s no side effects for it, right? And only upside and lots of great lots of great studies and testimonials of people that have been helped where a lot of other things just didn’t help or things might have helped. But they were opioid drugs and so they had all these bad side effects. This is a great way to help heal the body and also get rid of chronic pain.

Jim Ohneck

So what happens, what happens with people here really quick is they use the unit, they buy the home unit and they get such a great results that they come back and I had one lady by 10 for all their family members for Christmas yet. So this is you know, a word of mouth has really helped here.

Tom McCarthy

It’s a great gift. Great gift for or we’re past the holidays now. But you know, even for birthdays or whatever it might be and definitely for the holidays next year, it’s a wonderful gift. And and just it’s www.EPOCHLASERS.com., Epochlasers.com. Check it out. You know, this is a guy with high integrity and a great heart Jim. Thank you so much for being on with us. I really enjoyed learning from you and so great to see you again.

Jim Ohneck

Yeah, great to see you again. Thanks again for the interview today, greatly appreciate it.