Dr. Schaffner’s Unique Approach to Treating Mold-Related Illness

Eric Gordon, M.D. 

Hello. Welcome to another episode of Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness. Today is just kind of a pleasure and exciting moment. Here we’re gonna get a chance to meet Dr. Christine Schaffner. A physician who has really done a lot to help get the messages out to people of what it means to heal and just using a lot of different modalities. I think that’s one thing that I really appreciate is doctors like Dr. Schaffner who realize that this is not a one size fix all kinds of problems that we’re dealing with. When we’re dealing with chronic illness, it’s about the individual. And from her work, you’ll see that she really understands that. And what we’re gonna hear today is how she looks at the patients, at you, and what we can do to try to help give you some new tools. So welcome, Christine. A pleasure.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This has really been a fun collaboration, so thank you.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Ah, yes. So really, so I mean, one of the things that, as someone who’s been watching, I’ve been interested in just, in your way of laying out the environment, energetic, just all those issues. How do you weave them together? ‘Cause that’s always been a big, big part of this.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, absolutely. We see very similar patients in those who are listening right now. They’re complex. There are many things going on and one of the things that I see people struggle with is there’s so much information. How to prioritize and really how to take all this information and really create a plan that’s gonna really target what somebody needs at the right time with the right support and really move them forward. And my patients teach me every day and I’ve learned a lot. I’ve only been practicing 11 years, but I feel like I’ve learned a tremendous amount in that time. And we’re all evolving. I mean, even 11 years ago, what we know today versus what we knew then.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Wooh, yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

I recall Dr. Shoemaker had just came out with his book, “Surviving Mold,” when I had started practice. And so that whole framework was coming out and then also the other thing I’ve seen in the 11 years too, Eric, is that I’m so grateful that we’re able to talk online and share this information in this kind of format that we’re doing together because there was just so much, it was so hard to find the answers. Whether online or within communities, it was really kind of suppressed and quiet. And so I feel like in some ways, I know it’s an interesting time right now, but a lot of information around chronic illness is so much more accessible. But people are completely overwhelmed because there’s so much to navigate in the chronic illness world. 

So we were talking about how to share my framework today in how I approach a patient. And it’s evolving, but what I look like…. Look at today is we’ve called this EECO, everyone likes acronyms. And it’s just a way to explain what my approach is. And so the first E stands for environment and terrain support, which I can go over. The other one stands for energy systems support. I’m really into the bioenergetic piece. I think that’s the future of medicine. I think the more that we can intertwine the bioenergetics and the acknowledgement that we have, an electrical system, a biofield, and that we can have tools that integrate, that helps people, I think, recover more quickly. So we can chat about that. And then I’ve done a lot of training in biological medicine and there’s this idea of interference fields in biological medicine. 

So the C stands for clearing the blocks. So most of my patients will have some interference field that just really prevents their body from self-regulating and healing. So we can talk about that. And then the naturopath in me talks about optimizing flow and drainage. Which I think, again, a lot of people understand now. But before these protocols would be very, sometimes create a lot of adverse reactions or unnecessary or too strong of Herxheimer reactions because the organs of elimination or even the lymphatic system wasn’t properly supported. So that’s, when I see a patient, I’m holding all of that in my head and when I really come up with a tangible protocol. So happy to walk through all of that.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh yeah, no, no. I bet that’s, I just, I love the way you laid it out because especially the optimizing the flow and drainage is something from those of us who, actually working with Wayne Anderson, Dr. Anderson, who is treating line since the early nineties and Joseph Scotto. And, I started in 2000 and with line, and that was where we… that’s when the error of the herx and it took us a few years to realize that, no, no, no, no, no. We were people weren’t getting better. I mean, there was a handful that could push through those herxes, but really we were just pushing people into the wall because we weren’t paying enough attention to the drainage and the interference fields and all these other things that like you said, that we keep learning and relearn. So many of these are old, but in the rush to heal and the rush to do modern medicine. Which is here, let me give you the magic piece that’s going to fix you.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah

Eric Gordon, M.D.

We forgot about, but chronic illness has really, I mean, that’s why I’m so excited to talk to, has really taught me to have to go back to all those areas because that’s where the, that’s why it’s chronic. If the single magic, or drug is gonna fix you, that’s a few, very small percentage of people who are chronically ill. It’s usually, it’s a, it takes a dance of a lot of things. So going back to, so when, just in your framework of when you’re seeing the patient, that’s what always amazes me about how different practitioners work. What’s a real clue that each one of these needs a lot of attention for you?

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. And I love your point too, about that. ‘Cause I think, I always say to my patients too, if it was one thing that was wrong, this would be way easier to treat then you would be better by now, by the time we’re an office like ours. I believe both of us are, we’re still shifting this paradigm of thought. And when I look at this framework, really it’s happening, not linearly, but I feel like dynamically, all at once often, when a new patient comes and really what is on the top of my mind is this whole, like the idea of interference fields. ‘Cause I think that’s still often under looked and so interference fields, that might be a new term. It’s this idea, I’ve been in German biological medicine, they’ll either call them interference fields or focal infections and what they can build are these areas that can be these hidden reservoirs, often have infection or stagnation in the body. 

And that no matter what you do, it’s almost like you’re up against a wall or I’ll say there’s a boulder in the middle of the way that we have to get out of the way so that your body can actually do what it’s trying to do. And so the most common ones, I would say, Eric are still the mouth, right. I think there’s a lot going on in the mouth, and it’s all even tiny, when we look at the mouth, but it can be a huge piece, especially with our Lyman co-infection patients. When I look at the mouth, I still really screen for amalgam fillings. Most people understand that amalgams, don’t have a place in the body, but for some people they’re still, increasing that’s right. 

But we start there and amalgams for people that if they’re, this is new, they’re an amalgam and not all. And one of the primary metals in the mercury and the filling is mercury, which is a very known neurotoxin. And we can inhale that mercury vapor over time that can get into our cranial nerves that can affect our microbiome and our mouth and our gut. And so we can’t really even detox from heavy metals when we still have, amalgams sending, at least from my patients I see that that can be, very, it’s essentially, if we’re trying to key light or remove metal, when you still had metal in the mouth, you can aggravate someone. So we screen for amalgams. I look at root canals, root canals are essentially dead teeth there. 

The nerve is taken out and then filled with non biocompatible material. And those root canal teeth can be a reservoir for infection. And then we look at the wisdom teeth. So the wisdom teeth are really big. I feel like in our Lyme and co-infections patients, especially because what happens again, if this is a new term, the wisdom tooth is removed. And for some people it’s like the chicken or the egg white doesn’t heal, it becomes necrotic dead tissue. And often that can be a reservoir for viruses, parasites, Bartonella, other bacterial infections. And we look at the mouth and the connection with the acupuncture Meridian system. So each chew sits on a Meridian, but I also think just proximity. So when you think about where the wisdom tooth is, and you think about, what’s happening there that can drain into the lymphatics, it can affect the vagus nerve. So I think there can be, vagus nerve infection or toxicity that’s, origins are in the mouth.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

So, I often see if a patient has had like recurrent, intestinal issues or dysbiosis or vagal nerve issues or dysautonomia. I often think there’s especially something potentially in the wisdom tooth cavitation area, and then another big focal infection. I think if our patients is the tonsil area. So the tongue, it’s not just the palatine tonsils, but the whole wildfires language is that ring of lymphatic tissue that has just so much of an activity, especially for our patients, I would say like nine out of ten of my patients, there’s something happening there. That’s eating their immune system. And so for people who are new to this, it’s a tissue that’s at the base of the brain, so it can affect a lymphatic drainage. So the drainage of the brain at night, and then it’s at the top of the gut associated lymphatic tissue, right? So it’s the top of the gut. So it’s almost like the cracks of the gut brain, that’s happening.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right there, yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And it can affect, if that tissues of reservoir, it can lean be just this ongoing spot where there can be neuro inflammation and gut inflammation. So there’s all depending on, the patient, especially if someone has pans or pandas, we’re really looking there, but it can have all sorts of different degrees. Those are probably like the mouth and the tonsils I would say are, they’re like the big focal infection areas. And then I do neuro therapy in the office. And so we also look at scars and scars can be very subtle, but very profound and how they affect the body. And again, when we think about optimizing flow, I’m a big fan of the lymphatic system. And if you take away one thing from my talk address, your lymphatic system, and so scars, I find they can be from injuries or traumatic events or surgeries and scar tissue can be a reservoir of it can hold up not only it has a physical effect, but I can also see trauma can be stored in a scars.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

I’ve seen that all the time on my table, when people go through a neuro therapy injection, sometimes they’ll have a thought emotion, visceral experience letting go.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Releasing that stuck energy in the body. You can really, again, optimize flow and drainage. And then also just the fascia and the lymphatics and in that can just open up more flow in that area. And so C-section scars, appendectomy scars, mold removal scars, all of these things can be subtle, but really profound. I always, I’m one anecdote always sticks in my head. I have a patient, I did a melanoma scar on her back, over her shoulder blade and her palpitations went away. So it’s just we don’t know how these fascial unwinding can really affect distant tissues or organs. So that’s a lot of fun.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, no, I think that this is something that is so frustrating because I mean, the frustration is that we see how profound the scars that the held the places in the body where tension and there’s decreased flow affects the systems, but it’s very difficult to get conventional medicine to look at this because it’s individual, you can release one person’s appendectomy scar, and it does nothing. And you do another person’s and it opens up the blood flow and the lymph drainage and to their lower extremities and everything works again. That’s what people have to understand is that, and when you went there when you’re healthy, it would be good to do, but when you’re ill, you really have to be willing to do different therapies, even though they’re all not going to work as dramatically for you because there are in play. 

I think that is the thing that you’re, what, you’re exactly what you described is this, the interactions between the lymph and the nervous system and just the fascia and the flow, these things that are subtle, we’re able to go through life banging and falling down and having all kinds of horrible things happen to us. And we’re fine. And then suddenly we’re not, and we become very sensitive to everything, all of a sudden, and I’m not explaining that well, but it’s something that’s always because as coming as a conventional doctor, I came from like, if it didn’t kill you, there was nothing wrong with you.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right, right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Okay, I mean, that’s what people have to understand why, what you’re talking about to page took two people who are, haven’t been too involved in medicine sounds very reasonable. That energy flow will affect your body. Fascia tightness in the tissues is going to affect your body. But when you go to your regular doctor, if it hasn’t hurt you in a way that’s painfully obvious, it’s not a big deal. And that’s what’s frustrating when people go back, when they listened to a talk like this and they go to most physicians and they tell them about, well they have a scar where they have a root canal, which has never healed, the good thing I had the root canal five years ago, but no, I can still feel it. It’s not heal.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, I agree, sure.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And the dentist gets the x-rays and won’t do anything. Anyway, I just want to reinforce what you’re saying is crucial to health. If you don’t deal with these things that Dr. Schaffner is talking about, and you’re sensitive, there’s a good chance, the fancy medicines or herbs that people throw at you are going to just bounce off because your system is locked down.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, absolutely. And I was going through my email the other day and there was an email from Aegean drainage kind of company. And they said all disease starts in the connective tissue. And as we’re talking and I’m happy to share more about what that means, but also, I think what happens too, we’ll have a person in the office and they’ll say like, “I don’t know what happened. “All of a sudden I’m sick.” And then it’s this idea, this kind of train story, it’s like, it could have been a C-section birth then on the amino vaccines then maybe a traumatic event or living in a moldy home, and then think all of a sudden I’m sick. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s like, this was it’s not me, that’s so worst we’re getting better, we have to stabilize your system, but address those factors that kind of make you who you are so that you can be more resilient and well. I’m gonna have to look at these root causes that I think because of the modern paradigm right within something happens, treat it better, but it’s like, we’re way more dynamic than that.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes. And your system for your way of organizing the thinking about this is just a beautiful way to remind us that, this isn’t, I always I’ve said this too many times on these episodes, this is not about a bullet.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right, right, right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

We’re really good at that.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. I know our job would be waiting this all worked in that way, but it’s nice.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the same with this whole thing we talked about mold is that, why it’s so important for people to think the way you’re describing, even when they’ve had a quarter of a mold exposure. ‘Cause if it was just a mold exposure, you let leave the mold exposure and you get better.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

If you’re not getting better, it is just stressing a system that has been stacked for a long time. So I’m having fun listening to you. So I’m going to shut up. I have a tendency to keep going here. So this is, I mean, so you tell us a little about the connective tissue, because fascia, it was, I said was one of the first things that unfolded for me as, but I want to hear your stories about it.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, yeah. Totally, this is an area that I love learning about and going more deeply. And I think this is the area where all of these things we’re talking about really is the area of treatment and the area, these things settle. And so when we’re talking about fascia connective tissue, the extracellular matrix, the lymphatics, they’re all interconnected. When we study medicine, we study anatomy and think of like body compartments. But the truth of the matter is it’s all interconnected. And I love the work of Dr. James Oshman and he wrote a book called, “Energy Medicine,” and he calls it the matrix. 

So his idea is really that we’re this highly interconnected work network from the nucleus of our cell. Our DNA is communicating to the micro tubulin. That’s crossing over integrins in the cell membrane. That’s, going into the connective tissue to the college and to the skin. So you can actually change your epigenetics by manual therapies, because we’re all interconnected. And then my mind goes, it’s like, okay, what’s outside of their? The biofield, so there’s the highly interconnected network, that we can address. And so when you go back to the fascia connected tissue, extracellular matrix, the extracellular matrix again, it’s a big area of discussion and biological medicine and naturopathic medicine. 

So it’s this space between the cells, right? So it’s this area that embed really in pre lymphatic fluid. And it’s an area that, we’re only as healthy as our extracellular matrix is able to bring nutrients to our cells and remove waste. Really simplistically and the things that are in the space or collagen, right. The most abundant protein in the body. So collagen, we have things like fibroblasts and hyaluronic acid and gangs, or Dwight lichens, I can remember, but I could think that kind of stuff, right? And when we think about, what’s happening there, Lyme and co-infections right, they love.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s what they love.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Heavy metals because of their charge can bind to proteoglycans and creating disruption breakdown, glyphosate say it’s an analog of placing. It can be incorrectly. And either, it’s one of the primary amino acids in college. And so it can break that down. So, the things that we talk about the most, in the office, glyphosate, heavy metals, Lyme, and co-infections when you are affected by mold or micro toxins, your lymphatic system also becomes more congested because of the burden on other organs to eliminate. And so that space can be overwhelmed as well. And then the model this works way better than I do. And Dr. Navios work with the cell danger, right? It’s really this extras what’s happening in the extracellular matrix is signaling cells that are stressed, right? And so I again, a lot going on here, but we can think about it simplistically too. 

So if we can get that space to drain and to be healthy and communicate well for the cells to be able to communicate effectively, and we can target therapies that, address the things that I’ve just shared in that space, , that’s a real big area of focus and treatment. And so really again, starts with our lymphatic system because that space strings through lymphatic capillaries that essentially collect the lymph and bring it back to the heart and in the lymphatic system. That for me, is this intersection between like toxicants, pathogens, also trauma, because of, I’m not down this rabbit hole, but structured water in this space can hold memories.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

In consciousness. And so you can see when you moving lymph at first for people, sometimes they can get these Herxheimer reactions if they’re not supported with binders and all of that, but they can also have these, thoughts, emotions, memories, leave their system, because I think of moving that energy, moving that maybe emotional that’s been potentially stuck or holding there. So my approach is really always looking at that, those kind of three buckets together, because I think they’re all interrelated in the space of the extracellular matrix, the living matrix, the college and connected tissue, fascia, all different words for different parts of it. It’s really, I think a really big area of focus to recover somebody who has a chronic illness.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yes, yes. What was, so what did you have a few favorites? You talked about the neural therapy is kind of a basis, where you like, think like to start, but as far as helping people with the drainage process, what are some of your favorite modalities?

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, absolutely. So I love a lot of different things.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I could imagine. That has been you.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, I know. This is the fun part of our world, right? We have so many tools, right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And we’re not just, we have four drugs that are going to try to everybody who wants to come to work. But I do think if you’re listening out there and struggling, I do think to get your lymphoma moving. I do think working with a skilled lymphatic drainage therapist in the beginning can be really helpful, just so much stuck energy and stagnation assistant can really have that support. So looking for a massage therapist, that’s been trained in lymphatic drainage and there’s different trainees, there’s Veda and then there’s also deeper lymphatic work. And then I have assistant in my office that my friend introduced me to this woman and New Zealand created it. Her name is Desiree De Spong. 

She’s a lymphologist and New Zealand they have that there. And she created this system that is called, The FLOWpresso zone and it’s compression. So again, the lymphatic system means movement to move because it doesn’t have potentially have a pumping system like that on a circulatory system. So we movement really helps the lymph moves. So this is compression with infrared and it’s like, pump what they call it, like nano vibratory technology. So a little bit, I’m more than happy having increased cellular voltage with frequency.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Oh, I liked that sort of it’s nice when people put things together, ’cause everybody wants to do their thing. And it’s the beauty. Yes, that’s great. I like that.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

It’s really fun cause I’m really I hope like every office that treats these illnesses have want to visits, it’s nice because they’re compression. It gets the abdomen. There can be a lot of lymph stagnation in these patients and it’s an interconnected system. So if you have stagnation in one area, it’s hard for the rest of it to drain. So, the abdomen and then the infrared helps with heating, right? Which can be detoxifying, but infrared also helps with exclusion zone water. And so exclusions water, I think Dr. Paul agreed this on the summit. So he, or we have a conversation around eccentric model.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Well actually, we had some ones peripherally, but no, no, I, next time I actually have a conversation with Dr. Paul coming up. He’s amazing. He is just an amazing man.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. He’s been a friend and a pioneer in this work. And if this is a new topic for people, it’s this fourth phase of water. So this stage of water that has all these properties, in the body and one that I think is essential to health is that it helps with movement and flow. So the more exclusions on water that we have, it helps with storing energy, for sure. And it helps detoxify the cells, but it helps also create blood flow, lymphatic flow. So that’s, I think why the FLOWpressoes really nice. So lymphatic support can be finding a manual therapist during the FLOWpresso and then also just movement. Some of our patients have those re bounders that can be very helpful, dry skin brushing. And then I love just different either topical on products or different herbal products and then also a different dream in Germany. So drainage frenemies are these complex, how many paths that kind of target the extracellular matrix or different systems in the body, or like pecan or physical or ulna. So finding a practitioner who knows how to just combine those to help support you.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And then lymphatic herbs. I mean, there’s lots of them like red root and cleavers and calendula nettles are popular ones. And then our friend, Dr. Ruggiero helped us create a product over the years that has a probiotic that produces micro activating factor in that combined with vitamin D3 and lipoic acid. Topically really moved limb in moves limb. So we had people put it on your neck and areas. And when you have lymphatic stagnation, this is where the tonsil interference field can come into play a lot of the time. So, if you had potentially tonsil interference field and stuck lymph, really doing also I’ll do gargles or propolis spray. I love a couple of propolis sprays that can be really helpful. So those are lymphatic remedies and lymphatic ideas to help with the–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I just come back to me cause the topical I love because one of the things I’ve run into is a lot of the really sick people. When you start to move the limp, they don’t do well. So because it’s moving, this is stuff you stored away and we want to get rid of it. But anyways, so the topicals I’d like, because there’s sometimes a little gentler and helps get flow going. So that’s really interesting. You’re finding really good results with that because there’s, so this is like kind understand of GC math.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, yeah. It’s right. It’s kind of like a different way to do GC math because the topical is making the peptide rather.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Than getting the peptide, and then so that, yeah. Topicals are great men with you. Like some of the very sensitive patients, they need their lymph moving the most, but they’re like the most once.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. The exit still stuck. Yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Exactly. So even I’m sure you’ve known this too. It’s like, listen to their patients also just don’t under estimate dose. Like their dose can be like, sometimes I start people on one or two drops of these.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah absolutely.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

You just have patients. And sometimes too, when the lymph is really blocked and people feel worse. I also pair that with either colon hydrotherapy or coffee enemas at home, not only the lymphatic system gets really stuck in these patients, but also the biliary system, right? The bile, I feel like a broken record in my office. Like as a woman for moving this, your bile flowing like that, of course all the other things too, but I think those are big areas of focus and we know with more right. And mycotoxins, that can really be, that can congest bile and bile for people who are new to this is our liver cells produced bile, bile gets stored. If you have a gallbladder gets stored in the gallbladder, if you don’t have a gallbladder, it’s still like the, my cadaver in school didn’t have a gallbladder. And one of the bile ducts was dilated. And so it’s like the body of was made a little sack within the liver. So I was wondering and if you don’t have a gallbladder, this is even more important because why you got your gallbladder removed is because there was a lot of stagnation.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

‘Cause here your bile stagnating or effective.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And bile is obviously really good for digestion, but it’s a route of elimination, right? So we need bio movement for mycotoxin elimination, just normal metabolic waste, hormones, and then as you I think we’re starting to say is that, if the bile is stagnant, that can be a breeding ground for parasitic infections, itching, viruses. And so it’s this vicious cycle. So we’re getting the bile flowing and then eliminating it through the colon and having binders on board is a really other big part, I think, of foundational to help move somebody forward with whatever other immune therapies that we’re gonna be doing.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I think that that is yeah, beautifully said. I mean, just ’cause that basic binders leaves bile. I mean, if you don’t have them, you usually gonna keep banging into the wall. You’re gonna have those people who say “I’m trying to detox and I keep getting sicker.” And one of those three systems are usually all of them are probably not working well. That is I and again, what was the name of the, it’s FLOWpresso?

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, FLOWpresso, yeah. I’ll introduce you to Kelly. It would be–.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

No, but I think for this, I mean, cause that, I’m just want to say again that I’m impressed because it’s, it’s so hard, there’s lots of companies who sell light devices, and they all each one of these devices helps increase energy in the cell, which is good. Sometimes you gotta go very gently because you put too much in, it’s not good, but it’s so nice when they come willing to combine, because then we can, again, we can use a lower thresholds, lower amounts of energy in each system and it gives your body a chance to pick what it can hear.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, I like that.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I think that’s I’m really impressed that that’s a really cool thing.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, yeah. You have to come visit.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I will talk about that. Yes, ’cause it sounds like you put together a way of kind of having chance for people to get multiple of these treatments all at once, which is really, really nice. Okay. So, that’s kind of sort of like an overview, I think, of the beginning to deal with the block systems in the body.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. So we just talked about, blocks and even starting to talk about the flow piece. So I think we have that covered. And then I guess the, even the two E’s one is environment and terrain support. So I’m a naturopath and I feel that, of course I see the role of all these stealth pathogens and chronic infections. And when I always sit with this, like, why are some people’s sick and why are other people not sick? Right? And you can see that in the family’s system, you got all the time.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Right.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

A partner might not, it might even create a lot of discord because they can’t even comprehend that someone could be doing so much more poorly in an environment than they are, because don’t have that experience. So I’m so the more I learn about all of this I and we probably I don’t know if you agree, but there’s a reality to working with this patient population that we’re exposed all the time to a lot of the things that they’re being challenged with. And so, and some people don’t, so I’ve just had this awareness that like, okay, why are some people healthy, other peoples are not? And so it comes back to this idea of the terrain. And that, again as a term that we talk about a lot and naturopathic and biological medicine, and I also reflect when it gets somebody better, it’s not like getting rid of every spinal cord in their body. That’s not every mycotoxins, so how do we create resilience? So whatever comes their way that can more quickly adapt and recover and not be taken out of life, right? And so when we think about the terrain, we not only think about the microbiomes in our body, but we also think about the environment and I think a big part of why people are so sick today is this just onslaught from conception that there, those two toxicants.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. Prenatal onwards, yes.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Pretty exceptional.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right, so it’s like we’re pretty, we’re doing as humans, we’re doing pretty well, all things considered, we need to change the course the way things are going. And so I think a big part of this is looking at environmental factors. So, we look at heavy metals, of course, in the big, heavy metals. I focused on our aluminum, lead and mercury of course, cadmium arsenic, I’m seeing more radioactive those of people. So typically the self hydro affinitive metals have certain strategies and the aluminum has certain strategies. So you have to get your basis covered, and you can do that with natural products. And for some times people need culation and that’s a very individual timing and treatment strategy. And then I do think the herbicides, the pesticides, the persistent organic pollutants, the plastics, the phalloides, those are also really, they have really long half-lives and we’re find them in our fat. 

And so a big part of recovering your immune system is recovering or rather trying to get your bucket less, full of these toxicants because these can affect, they can disrupt our endocrine system, our immune system, they can weaken us, right? In that kind of bridge of terrain is more great, because of the environmental issue. And I think, I mean, I don’t know if this is your experience, but I think mode has just become so much more problematic because of environmental factors too, right? How we built our homes, the risk of EMF and I do, I do think that is something that creates more virulence in the mold that we’re exposed to. So I’m sure there’s a lot of people talking about, how to recover your home or reduce your exposure, to these things. And especially if you are trying to recover from a chronic illness, that’s mold driven that you have to get out of your moldy home or at least relieve–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, yeah. I think that is just the basic tenant is the levels that you can tolerate when you’re healthy often drop you have to, you become sensitized, you really have to respect that there’s going to, it’s a little bit like wheat, and like people who don’t have like terrible gluten issues, or just are sensitive to various components of the wheat. If they stay off of it for six months, they can go back in cheap once a week and do okay. But if they’re really sensitive, that never happens, you can’t go back. And the same thing with mold. I mean we see that few people, but I agree there, things have to have changed because mycotoxins are ubiquitous. They’ve always been with us.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right? ,

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And all of a sudden we’re seeing people who are, just more, many more, I mean, we always saw the, like the old candida, the people with candida, this is going back, I’m dating myself. But in the seventies and eighties, candida was the thing, everybody. And it was, and we’d see the people who had candida, allergy and sensitivity, but then there would be the people who like any they couldn’t tolerate anything and any mold exposure. And those were probably the mycotoxin people. We just didn’t recognize them back then. We thought it was all just the candida, not the realize that it was really just toxic byproducts in some people that was the issue, not just the immune response to the bug. So it it’s yeah. Our world has changed. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah auto auto-immune diseases where we could, in the eighties, we could recognize most auto immune diseases that we can recognize today. And we just did not see them. It is nuts, it is nuts. I mean, it just nobody, I don’t think, I don’t think anybody’s really stepped back and made a big enough noise that what we’re doing. I’m sorry, go on and on.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Go on.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

This is just watching what we’ve done to America. I mean, I wonder I’ve been reading lately about alcoholic liver, non-alcoholic study on liver disease, where it’s like, what, 40 to 60. I mean, it’s just, I can’t, I think it’s 16. I can’t even believe that number, but the percentage of Americans, because we’re slugging down fruit toast, like nuts anyway. So, but just the point is our environment has changed everything. And that’s why getting back to going approaching medicine the way you are thinking about it is the only way forward, because if you do it the way I was trained to do it, you’re only gonna do it after the training has worked you over. And that’s not pretty. So, I mean, so again, going back to, so when, so what’s your, maybe your main pieces of environmental advice for folks? I mean, it’s always going to put you on the spot there, but your top three or four, like, what should you do to clean up your environment?

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

I know, there’s so many things we can go through it and I know, and it’s evolving, but I mean really easy water, right? Please drink, get the fluoride out of the water, the aluminum out of the water, the glyphosate of the water. If you want to go down the rabbit hole, you can put the hydrogen in the water or structure the water or deplete the water. There’s lots you can do with water, but we have to have water every day and water it was really important. And mycotoxin and mold on those patients, the antidiuretic hormone issue, right? So a lot of patients can be chronically dehydrated and not really holding on to the water that they need. And so I think a good plan around water, clean water, put some electrolytes in your water.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And minerals, yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And then, I guess there’s so many different ways to then I would say obviously the motor peer involved, you have to deal with that. But I would say with my way of breaking down the EMF issue, so EMF is like a whole thing, and we’re only increasing our exposure, right? And when we think about radiation exposure, cumulative exposure over time, so how can you take all this information and try to, stay sane in the world? I say, try to create the safest sleeping environment that you can, right? Because we need sleep to heal and repair and detoxify our brain and to help heal our limbic system and all the things that we need in sleep. And so if we can reduce EMF exposure during sleep, it not only improves our sleep, but it also just gives us that break. So whether that’s turning your WiFi off at night, please don’t bring your cell phone into your room. 

Even if you’re really sick and want to measure and understand what your exposure is, you can work with somebody who’s trained to help you potentially use shielding tools to help. But I think the bedroom is the best place to make sense of all of this, because it can be very overwhelming. And then, if you asked me this like two weeks ago, I wouldn’t have said this answer, but I just was invited to speak last weekend at Polyface farms in Virginia. And that was, that’s Joel Salatin and his farm, who he was very popularized on Michael Pollan’s book, “The Omnivores,” and it’s all there. It was a really fun group of people. ‘Cause it was like health people, but also the regenerative agriculture people. And when I think about it, we and people like Zach Bush and a lot of us who are doing this medicine realize this interconnection right that we are a microcosm of the macrocosm and our soil is completely whatever.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. Best Nice way to put it.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

So we, we need to look at this regenerative agriculture practice. So what does that mean for the individuals? So even, what can you do within your home environment just to kind of put you in touch with your food source, what it is that you have a garden, is that you even just get a pot with herbs, is it you have chicken, is there some way to reconnect? I feel like Americans have become so disengaged with their foods supply. That’s part of why we’re seeing what we’re seeing, even what you’re saying with the non fatty or non alcoholic fatty liver syndrome. And so I am, it was just a really kind of beautiful reflection being there and then how he treated all of the animals and moved them around so that they regenerated the soil. 

So his soil actually started as like rock and clay. And then over three years he was able to completely, make it thrive through using animals and moving them around. And also just the things that he was doing all the time. So it was just this also beautiful, like insight. Hey, like the earth can regenerate it soil. Like we can regenerate our microbiome as well. So when we think about environment, I think like, how can you, just, whatever I’m saying means to you, like whether it’s going to the farmer’s market or just engaging in those, I think revival connecting to the soul because I think really if we don’t all participate in this, I mean, I’m an optimist, so I’m not going to be doing, I think I’ve not really participated. We’re going to be in trouble, right? We’re just gonna have really, yeah squandered, what we–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. Well, we’re gonna be continuing with that responding to to pandemics and doing it the way we’re doing it. It’s not going to be pretty. And, but, we went to your striking, listening to you. Is that going back to deal with the bio photon. Yeah, it’s, that’s where you put your water out in the sun, if you can’t do anything else, it’s just, I mean, when you’re talking about, you’re just inspiring that you’re kind of inspiring me. Yeah, that’s it, I’m looking outside though. Get out there, step in the dirt, use a little bit of it, grow something. I just love what you’re saying. And I really feel that in my heart is that it restores hope to us. I mean, because that’s what this body needs is sun and hope.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Totally.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah. I agree. I’m a student of all this and I’m learning and I think as you said, like with the pandemic, like American, isn’t going through a healing crisis, right? And we can either continue to on a trajectory or we can use this as a huge opportunity to really rethink how we’re doing things. And I think again, how do we have a resilient terrain, right. That starts with our microbiome or environment, optimizing flow, but also not to go on this tangent too. But I know that we see this in chronic illness. It’s like, I do believe ultimately our bodies are an instrument of consciousness, right? So we can see in our physical bodies where we perhaps, there’s an opportunity to really heal by going to those deeper places of ourselves, to understand, what is unhealed, right? Is it unhealed trauma in our life? Is it even pre our life and ancestral? Is it what is, I think there’s, people can take their and look to whatever level, but I continually am inspired when people also look at the emotional and the trauma routes that that’s really when like those instantaneous shifts happen, that we all want for a patient.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. What’s difficult is that when the energy system gets very, very, very low that’s when it’s needed the most and the hardest to do, I often try to let people know not to beat themselves up because when you’re, when you really reach that point, when you’re in pain all the time, it’s it. And I reach out and I want you to, like still trying to open the heart. It’s I have to say it’s sometimes it’s a little bit like being asked to learn how to swim when you’re drowning.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

It’s like, but on the other hand, that can be the only choice you have.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, and I hear you it’s timing right there.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

And don’t get me wrong. It’s like, when a person is like, literally dying in front of me, we had got to build them up, right? So that they can–

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

The best we can. But you’re right. But it’s that, but those are thing that’s frustrating. I mean, to us and the human being in front of us is that oftentimes all of our other work isn’t going to do much until that sun work inside is done. And I said, and it’s just like, it’s almost, it’s not, it feels unfair. Is that like, ’cause when you to feel the beauty of the universe is easiest, when you feel well.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That’s why we want people to feel well, right? But like, they also need that energy, for them to–

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

It’s an evolution.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And I think that’s why there is, I use this, I don’t always love this word of that’s why there is that healer relationship because you know, people need help sometimes, they need to add energy add light to their body so they can start doing the work themselves, right? Ultimately, we’re facilitating that. But, yeah, I agree with you and with how sick our patients can be, it’s supporting them to get there.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, yeah. I know, and I’m just say that to people. ‘Cause I know that that so many patients get annoyed. Sometimes if I or someone else starts to speak about doing deeper work, when they feel like they can barely, have the stress and have the desire, the desire to live is often getting tenuous and I go it is unfair, but that seems to be how do you say the rich get richer? I mean, it’s one of the unfair things of just, I didn’t design this, but this is how it seems to work. And also the appeal that when you feel well physically to take the time to really start to engage, engage the psyche in, engage the deeper places, do it when your energy is good and it will be there for you when you, when you need it. Because, that darkness comes to everyone at some point in life. And so it’s good to have the training first.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Totally. And I think this is also what I’m exploring more with my sick patients and also my healthy patients too, that this is also the opportunity when you’re even a really low where the subtle medicine like light and sound, can be very, so even just like, you have no energy to do anything, but there’s a whole rabbit hole of sound healing, right? And sound can affect your field and can also affect your nervous system. And it has all of these beautiful physiological effects. And we actually have this other instrument in the office it’s called sound of soul. And this I got introduced to this man Rasmus Gabba, who’s an Austrian. And he studied with a modem. 

And so he studied the water guy for people who don’t know put in some water, the water changed bad words. It looks unhealthy. So he has a way of taking your heart rate variability and converting it to music and then playing it back to you. So ultimately it’s the music of your heart, that auto tunes you to create more coherence in your field to start all of the things, I’m a believer, I’m still a student of this, that the field informs the physical body, but how to it’s bi-directional, but how do you, how do you do that? So when you’re feeling really sick, like you can’t go into do EMDR or do this or DNRs or whatever, but music, there’s lots of different. 

You can listen to music, you know most people, I know some people are sound sensitive, but most people can experience music. And whether it sounded soul or the tuning forks with biofield tuning or just like sound bowls or music that just makes you feel good. I think that there’s, I was introduced to this other researcher, Dr. Carlos Ventura and he studies how sound can actually activate our V cells. So, yeah there’s a whole, like, our cells, don’t only communicate with bio photons, but by biophonones too, like, there’s a music of our of ourselves. So those are the, we know all the things we’ve talked about, but those were the things that I’m going down the rabbit hole of how to–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I Know that those are I mean, this is, I have to say, I keep wanting to know what is the value of this particular summit. And for me, it’s been the learning and the joy of like, of just how many there’s so many different modalities and the it can be frustrating when you’re the patient, for sure. ‘Cause like, how much money and how much time and energy do you have? But the thing is, if everything works sometimes, and you don’t be, if it doesn’t resonate with you well, don’t start there, but try to find things because as you keep saying, is that the bio photon, the like sound energy, energy is what we are about. And if you just when you’re feeling well, remember to engage in doing this and when you’re not feeling well, hunted down, find something that resonates with your soul. And really, as I said, and don’t be so cynical. 

I mean, that I think is the thing that keeps people stuck and sick the longest is when you’re cynical and you just, because it doesn’t make sense to you, I love science, okay. But, but medicine is not science. Medicine is just a collection of stories and theories about how they connect and what they do. And that’s it, okay. I’m sorry. You want to build a bridge, you can tell me about science, but not about the body, but we know, we know that we’re energetic and all these things, we don’t yet understand the details, but I’m going, but we’re just what you’re bringing up is so, so important. I’m so glad that you’re bringing these modalities into your clinics. ‘Cause they’re really, really, really important to always offer that to people. And I’ve always had this dream of being able to gather, there’s probably hundreds, there’s gotta be hundreds, probably thousands of these different modalities that brilliant people have come up with and they go, and they kind of like live for awhile, but because they don’t hit enough people, they kind of die off.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah. And when you think, I mean, when all this works, you think, people think, oh, if it works and we hear about it, but that’s not true.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

It’s not true at all. That old story, if it really worked to cure cancer, everybody would now know. I have seen people recover from cancer and then go back to the oncologist and they just assume that it’s a one-off

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I mean it’s no, just because it works doesn’t mean your doctor knows about it.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I mean, cause I’ve spent my, the last, since I’ve been doing these interviews, there’s so many things at work that I’ve been hearing from people that I did know about and I spend my life trying to learn this stuff. So do not give up.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, absolutely. But I call that desire, I think everyone’s in that, there’s the human experience, there’s so many ways, but if we can have like a, almost a consensus as our profession who treats diseases that we’re talking about, like these are the majority of the modalities, the work, when we, these are the best sound modalities, the best light modalities, the best, emotional like really perfecting those, like those buckets I in helping prioritize for people. But I think that’s the future of medicine that I think that, not only are we going to get better at diagnosing through lab work, but I think we’re also going to get better at applying different modalities that really, really move the needle for people.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, well, I go into my favorite subject, Is when we’re going to get to the point that we’ll really get the funding to do and have enough N of one studies that we can do that and say, “Hey, wait a minute. “So these three things worked for this person “and maybe a different set of three things work for another, “but this one thing was in all of them “maybe it’s good, it’s powerful.” And we should get it out to more people ’cause I, yeah, it’s just, but at this point that’s not there just because of how much money it would take to do that. And it goes against the grain. Is that the powers that be still think, there’s gonna be one answer. There’s gonna be one vibration. There’s gonna be one sound therapy, one light therapy, one magic ID therapy. But so for you when you’re, done a lot to say, just looking at your career, you worked a lot, you supported a lot of people in learning and training and know you’re you tell me a little bit about your new project. I mean.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

So I am, I’ve been practicing as I mentioned 11 years, and then I had the opportunity to create my own clinic and it’s called Eminence. And Eminence when you think about naming the clinic, you just go through all these variations, but this word one day just came to me and I didn’t really understand it until I dove deeper. And the translation is the divine within. So what that means to me is, just connecting with people, really connecting with that ability that we’re connected to something greater. It’s not outside of ourselves, it’s within us. And that can be a create the momentum and energy that we need to heal, right? So, my clinic is in Seattle and I have a team of doctors that I work with to actually three natural paths. 

We specialize in, Co-infections and Lyme and mold and chronic illness. And then one of the doctors specializes in integrative oncology, which I’m really excited to learn. I haven’t done much oncology work in my career. My father’s an oncologist, but I’ve been really interested to just be able to offer more cancer patients, more tools. And so, we have a team and then we really, in the land of COVID, we’ve been doing a lot of telemedicine, but people are traveling again. And our goal is to really put them through a transformational process while they’re in our office and then give them tools and modalities to take it home. So we individualize all treatment, but is a combination of physician consults. And then doing these modalities from these lymphatic therapies to bioenergetic tools, to in our IB room, we also have the Weber laser, which is the intravenous vacation, which has been really fun to work with. 

So that is my new project in my, it was in a previous clinic and my vision is still the same. I mean, I think that really, as you and I both know that there’s so many people struggling out there and there’s a very when we think about how many people are in America and how many people need help, there’s so much limited access to the work that we’re doing. So my goal is to really come up with a model and educate what works and hopefully create more access and more communities and really, and really be proud of our outcomes that really truly integrate not only physical medicine, but this acknowledgement that we are electric all and we’re electromagnetic energy beings. And the more that we combine that the more healing that only happens for ourselves, but also our families or communities. And I’m an optimist. So ultimately I agree now that the heart, the field of mother earth responds to the field of us, through the work apart math. So the more that we can have a ripple effect, that’s my hope.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

That is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful vision. I really, I salute you and I can tell I’ve been doing including, what I call the body and the fascia and the electrical, those things in my clinic for, yeah. Really for the last, yeah, pretty much we started in, in like about 2006, we always try, but in 2000 we started with the FSMs and that was the and that was the beginning of seeing, how we could begin to interact with people, who were too sensitive for much else, but we could always run it without connecting it to the body. And I mean, I just applaud you because it’s a lot of work to hold that space, because people don’t realize that it’s just the, how do you say the, when in order for any of these modalities to work, they usually have to be done by someone who is not just in love with them, but also is talented and special and has different has a training. And it’s not just you can hire someone who like, and here use this machine.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Right.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

So it’s a lot of people who are very special that have to work and dance together. And I applaud you for moving forward with that and bring it into fruition.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Thank you. Creating and cultivating that–

Eric Gordon, M.D.

No, no. And especially you sound like you have a concept that you hope to like, maybe move this fourth and help others get it out there more in the world, even if that’s that’s it good luck. I’m really, ’cause it needs to be done. It needs to be done. There, there are too many, there are I mean, ’cause this is a group effort for every patient who, if you have chronic illness, the more help you can get, because I said, it’s like we’re playing. You’re like, it’s like playing a piano without using your just like humming over the strings. The more people are humming over those strings. The more likely we’re gonna get some interesting sound, I’ve started, don’t mix metaphor, but anyway.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

I love it. But they need a team. Right?

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

And deserve a team, so.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Yeah, so that’s exciting, anyway, so it’s a pleasure talking to you. Learnt a lot. I gave me a few new toys I wanna follow up on because I said, I call them toys and I don’t mean that facetiously. It’s just, it’s just that, because we want to, I mean, I look at medicine as play. It’s a dance, it’s what we do to bring joy and health to people. And I know that can sound, I don’t mean it to sound light. It’s just that, it’s a way that keeps me going. I’ve been doing this a long time and I meet people who often enter with a much more oomph mode. You can’t ’cause it’s we’re here to serve. But if we’re, if it’s only heavy duty lifting and you don’t share your joy, I don’t think you can keep doing it.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Eric Gordon, M.D.

I see that in you, it’s like you, you light up when you’re talking about helping people and that’s the joy and that’s the fun. And so I just kind of take it to a next level of where we’re playing. When it’s, but in the good sense of just enjoying life together, difficult times.

Christine Schaffner, N.D.

Absolutely. 

Eric Gordon, M.D.

Anyway, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.

Christine Schaffner, N.D. 

Thank you so much.