Upgrade your thyroid metabolism with one easy tracking tool.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Thanks, Kelly. I’m excited to have a conversation with you today.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah, I am too. We’ve had many conversations on and off camera. Every time I talk to you, I learn something new, something that I can apply, and it’s very helpful. So really excited to talk about what you do, and talk about how you manage chronic illness in the people that you see. Let’s start off by just telling the audience about yourself and your practice.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Sure, so I am not only the president, I’m a client as well in the sense that I had my own health challenges like I’m sure a lot of the practitioners do in today’s day and age. And the term adrenal fatigue got on my radar after already having a lot of education and never hearing about it. And the book that really made the difference, Kelly, was Dr. Kharrazian’s, “Why Do I Have Thyroid Symptoms “Even Though My Blood Tests Are Normal?” And I think that’s a landmark book, although, as you know and as you’ve written about, knowledge, it gets wider and more diverse. But ultimately in that book, there was the highlighting of adrenal fatigue. And if I wasn’t a poster child for it, I don’t know who would be. And that’s when I started my entire journey of discovering all about it. So now, what I do is I’ve turned in the brick and mortar aspect of my business. And I do more a online consulting type of coaching practice. I’m trained as a traditional chiropractic physician, but I’ve done functional medicine and do nutrigenomics, and really do a lot of exercise, physiology, and psychology. But thyroid is always one of the main things that your clients will come and see you with, with they don’t have energy, and they were told about a thyroid problem. And then, it just kind of starts from there.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Right, and then, the typical measuring of the single lab, the TSH, and being told, “Oh no, it’s fine, you’re fine,” but yet, these people are still struggling. I mean, I was one of those people who had just a plethora of thyroid symptoms, but yet, my labs were hanging in there. And I think that’s why the book you alluded to, Dr. Eric Balcavage and I wrote the book “Thyroid Debacle” because people are in a thyroid debacle. They’re stuck in it, and I was, and I think that I also had adrenal fatigue. I also, you know, everything’s connected, right? So why don’t you talk about that? Why don’t you talk about the specialty that you have in the adrenal fatigue, and treating it, and how you treat it, and how it really ties in, ’cause everything’s connected to the thyroid health.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, so as far as the adrenal fatigue story, I find that it’s such an awful term, Kelly, in terms of the description of what it is and the already established medical model of Addison’s and insufficiency, and how it’s not being studied or even peer-reviewed journaled. So when you have someone that does the research on the internet, and then, they go and see their doctor, and they’re already against the term that’s an internet diagnosis, it creates a lot of, okay, here’s gonna be a difficult patient, or let’s just get them out of the office, or let’s refer ’em to someone else, or let’s give them some medication. So there’s that aspect of the whole adrenal fatigue and the diagnosis.

But what I think really combines the whole picture and it’s sort of the tie that ties everything together is the need to make energy and at the level that we need to, because we’re under stress, because stress is everywhere. And one of the big changing, pivotal, I guess, dominoes that made me come to this realization came not too recently in terms of we either use oxygen for us or against us. And without getting too scientific, we make way more energy when we use oxygen than when we don’t. And that goes down to high school chemistry, cellular respiration, anaerobic, aerobic. And when the body’s under stress, we think about, “Oh, well, the better term is HPA axis.” But HPA axis doesn’t entail all the things that are going on in the body. 

So a better way of thinking it is the stress response system is an energy management system. It requires diverting energy from here to there, just like you would if you had low income or you had a lot of overhead, you gotta make important decisions I say about where that money goes. And we know that as being a cell danger response. So that’s the tie that really binds. Where the other really aha moment I had was understanding that the thyroid is a oxygen sensor, is really what it is. And it senses the oxygen at different levels or requirements and where it’s going and so forth. So if your body is using oxygen for you, you’re making energy effectively. If it’s not using oxygen for you, you’re actually creating oxidative stress. And I think that’s the connection between the two. So it’s really hard to play at the 30,000 view foot and reductionistically we say, “Okay, take this, take that, take this, take that,” whether it’s a thyroid support, an adrenal glandular, whatever it is, unless you get upstream at the, how do we make the oxygen work for us? Does that make sense?

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Oh, absolutely. That is, that is brilliant. And that’s what would people, the phenotypic expression of that is that fatigue, is that the blood sugar dysregulation, and so on and so forth, disordered breathing. So that’s going way back to root cause, I love that. I think that that’s very important. So let’s dive in a little bit more about the aspects of that. So if that’s the problem, if your energy, if you are creating, you’re more in an anaerobic than aerobic, first of all, what are the signs and symptoms? Again, if I missed anything. And then, how do we start to shift that, Dr. Joel, how do we shift that metabolism?

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, I mean, the overriding sign and symptom is fatigue, right? And everything that requires energy production. So that’s why it’s so diverse, brain fog, cold extremities, not having an energy system that gets you through the day. Circadian rhythm is upside down. So you’re maybe more energy at night, less in the morning versus the other way around. Libido, hormone imbalances. Weight loss resistance, but at the same time, weight gain resistance. And it just, migraines, infertility, period issues. All of those things, I think are as a result of not having enough energy. and we put all of that in the thyroid bucket or in the adrenal bucket. And it’s in the not-making-energy-enough bucket. And ultimately, because we’re under so much stress, we just think about it as it can give you shortness of breath. 

I hate the example of being held up at gunpoint, but just imagine that, and how terrorizing that is. We kind of have that going on at a subclinical level. And there’s a lot of reasons for it. And I would say the main reasons, to answer your question, is the reason why that’s happening is because we don’t have the optimal, well, first, the demand is so high, right? And you know the formula for a great health is have enough of the good stuff and not too much of the bad stuff. And the reality is we have way too much of the bad stuff and not enough of the good stuff. So ultimately, when we don’t have enough of the good stuff, especially just looking at foods, and our soils, and our minerals, and our glyphosates, and our pesticides, and our sprays, and our hormones, and our antibiotics, and the corn-fed, it just, you can go on, and on, and on about that. 

And that’s if they’re actually getting something that was made from Mother Earth, let alone packaged, and processed, and adulterated. So we’re not getting the good nutrients to begin with. And then, on the flip side, we have so many multitasking stressors with what’s been going on in the world, and isolation, and the Hatfield versus the McCoys, and just EMFs, and cell phones, and notifications, and extending of our day from 24 hours a day being on call. It’s just, it’s no wonder that the weak links in the chain are breaking because we don’t have enough income to get us through. So I think that kind of sums it up in an easy to understandable way.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we’re in under such assault and I totally agree. It sounds simplistic to have, you know, good health is to have more of the good things, but we really are. We’re under siege and that makes it even more important to have our detoxification pathways open, to have our thyroid hormone, to have the thyroid physiology optimized, because it’s all compromising that, right? If you don’t have that oxygen production, then everything’s being compromised. And so what are some of the tests that you use to ascertain that someone may be in that state, that low energy state instead of the normal energy state?

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, and it’s a great question. And I would go back to just the doctor that brought their black lab coat or their lab coat in their little bag, and they would go to make house calls. And they would ask their patient, “What’s going on?” And they would have the time to figure it out because it’s not rocket science when you sit down for more than 15 minutes and understand what they’re dealing with, right? And so I think that’s a big part of the what’s the best test is a really good sit down and let’s just figure out what’s going on here and see if I can put the smelling salts under your nose to understand, “Oh my gosh. “There’s no wonder that I have this.” So what can we do to address those things first? And then, from there, obviously, I’m a big believer in comprehensive blood labs before anything else. 

I know like the DUTCH test, and there’s genomics, and doing DNA testing, all of the tools, which we probably both use. Organic acid testing, GI-MAP testing, there’s amino acids. There’s so many different testing. I think first and foremost, just as an aside, making sure that you run a test with the intent of it changing the outcome, right? And if you’ve already put in place fundamental things, then you don’t need to be playing downstream, and it’s not gonna change your outcome by running that test. But with that being said, or not your outcome, but your protocol. That being said, I really am favorable for a complete thyroid panel. 

And I’m sure you’ve discussed it, but I really like the ratios of free T3, reverse T3, total T3, reverse T3, looking at it from a production standpoint, processing standpoint, utilization or proteomic standpoint where how much of the actual thyroid hormones getting inside the sound. I’m sure I’m outdated with the research you’ve done with going forward on that, but I like that. And then, lastly, this just, I’m a big believer of looking at the status of oxygen through looking at iron, ceruloplasmin, ferritin, transferrin, copper, copper to ceruloplasmin ratios, vitamin A, vitamin D, RBC magnesium, hemoglobin. If you know what you’re doing with those markers, it really tells a story, Kelly, that lets us know that, okay, aerobic cellular respiration isn’t happening at the level we need to.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Right, yeah, definitely. That was definitely a game changer for me when I started to learn about testing, like you just said, for ceruloplasmin, and how the iron and copper, and how that relates to the electron transport chain and the production of energy. That was really a game changer for me. I really love that aspect of it. Do you have any suggestions for, let’s say for a layperson, a non-professional, of anything that they can evaluate themselves to know that they may be stuck in that cell danger or stuck in that low energy state? Would it be any kind of objective data that they could lean on?

Dr. Joel Rosen

Well, one of the easiest to do is using a glucose keto monitor, right? And seeing your, what I like is in terms of real-time testing, right? Whether you’re using pH strips, I think those are great to look at your acid balance in your urine. I also like the idea of a tracker, like these wearables, looking at your steps, or your HRV, or your sleep, or your readiness. There’s some proprietary stuff with companies that do that. But then, I like the idea of the glucose and keto monitor, because it can really tell me, like I had a conversation, just as an aside, with my coaching clients. And I think if you can get your glucose number, which you would divide by 18 to get a mole unit and divide that by your ketone mole unit, and if you could get that less than one. So let’s say you need to have, say if your glucose is 60, that would be a four millimoles, then you would have more than 4.4 in your ketones. When you’re less than, actually, you would have four or higher, I’m sorry, not greater, less than 10, but less than one. If you have less than one, to me, I don’t think 90% of people have ever achieved that, right?

Dr. Kelly Halderman

The walking unwell, right? It’s called the walking unwell. Everybody looks fine, or they’re fine, but yet, they’re on four medications, that right there, I think that is so important and such a pearl for people, even just regular people to use. You can do a simple calculation and know about your metabolism. So I’m so glad you brought that up.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, I think if you can get that, I think, and that’s not easily earned, meaning you have to do a lot of things to get there. And that means, and I think really a couple strategies are getting rid of processed foods, getting rid of junk oils, which are sunflower, safflower, vegetable, stuff that are highly heated. Getting rid of any type of artificial stuff. And then, really start to compress that window and go at least 12 hours, if not 10, between meals and don’t snack throughout the day, then you could start getting some moving numbers where you’re gonna use that as a tool, as a strategy. You’re gonna use it as a tool to be able to really help your body cleanse, and remove, and clear out, and really do a reset on your body. So that kind of got a little sidetracked from what you asked me, but I think that the blood work and the tools at real time are things that you can empower yourself with.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

No, that was excellent. That was an excellent pearl, thank you for that. How do you feel about continuous glucose monitoring?

Dr. Joel Rosen

I think it’s good, I’ve used it a couple times. It’s very variable. There’s a lot of variation in it because of, I think the time that it takes to actually start getting readings. To me, I like the finger prick better just because it’s less expensive over time, I think. I also use a breath meter and that’s also something you could look at too. I think it’s a good tool provided that whoever buys it has someone that’s teaching them how to actually use the tool, but it’s a tool nonetheless, and it has its strength and its weaknesses. But I like that it’s being used more often, not just for people that are diabetic, but people that are metabolically unhealthy.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Sure, so are you saying, so if I am hearing you right, with doing the calculation, are you saying that being in ketosis per se, is what can really move the needle for people kind of to–

Dr. Joel Rosen

No, I’m more saying like harnessing it as a tool so that at least what gets measured gets managed, right? So if you have no clue, and most people think that they’re hypoglycemic if they don’t need every two or three hours, right? So they get some ahas with that for one. And then, number two, once you can start to see the stressors that impact your life, the sleep quality, your activities, your diet, all the things that you’re doing that the impact that they have on those, I think you should be less than 10 to the one at all times. And I think that there are certain times during a female cycle, if she’s in her last phase, that she could refuel and have a three, or four, or five-day carb refuel type of thing. And at the beginning of the cycle, she can have more of a fast-type thing. 

But I think on the whole, you wanna keep a tightly knit, low standard deviation of what your glucose to ketones less than 10 number should be consistently. And then, go up or down. But what I’m saying is you need to have a tool in your toolkit that gets it very, very low for one, or two, or three, or five days of 1/4 of 1/2 a year of a 30-day cycle. Whatever you feel is, obviously the sicker you are, the probably more frequent you need it. But I don’t subscribe to the, you have to be in a ketogenic diet. I think it’s more of, if you’re controlling the process of the foods, the timing of the foods, the frequencies of the foods, the actual adulteration of the foods and stuff, then you should be able to really control that number.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah, and that really ties right into this topic about thyroid, because Eric and I, we talk about in the book, is that the allopathic world looks at thyroid disease as a gland problem, when it’s more of a cellular problem, it’s more of a cellular stress. And so this tool that you’re talking about, that can measure the decrease that’s going to decrease your cellular stress. When you decrease cellular stress, everything can get better, right? So it’s not really, you know, we’re not targeting one thing or the other, we’re optimizing physiology. And I absolutely love that. I mean, look at the rates of Alzheimer’s. Look at the rates of cancer, cardiovascular disease. Again, Jim LaValle, a friend of both of ours, talks about the walking unwell. We’re walking around. And this is a really powerful tool that I’m going to start using today to really gauge yourself and get yourself back to that state that we’re supposed to be in, in homeostasis. Now, again, in our book, we talk about fitness factors, and that includes even your emotional health beyond this piece. But again, I think that it is a holistic view. You as well, I’ve learned from you, I’ve seen what you’ve done in your programs. It’s excellent, it’s very comprehensive. And so for people trying to move the needle, I think this is a very, very great tip on how to monitor that. And it has widespread effects.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, for sure. And I would just add to that two other things, of course, is circadian rhythm awareness. I’m sure you talk about that as well, and that’s free, and that really runs the clockwork of the, of the orchestra, ’cause it really is an orchestra going on in your body. And then, the other aspect, what was it, oh yeah. As far as controlling the oxygen consumption radar, how much your body needs the oxygen. I mean, you can’t just eliminate EMFs, or the quality of the food, or your to-do list, or your relationships, but you can change the reaction to that, and the story you tell yourself, and the, I guess the call-to-action it gives you. Meaning you’re not a victim from it and it is very hard, but it’s more along the lines that this was done for your greatest purpose. And I know that’s kind of hard to accept, but this was coming, not just, you know, happening to you, but it’s coming from you to be able to knock it off your to-do list, and then, accomplish something more. And I think when you approach it that way, that automatically takes the winds out of the sails, if you will, and you haven’t even taken a pill, or a diet-hopping approach, and you’ve just assessed it from, what’s really going on here?

Dr. Kelly Halderman

That’s right, and both of us, we see people with suitcases full of supplements, and they spend 1,000s of dollars on different fad diets. And people are frustrated. And it’s because we don’t have enough people like you preaching about this oxygen, the oxygen of how we’re utilizing it and how it’s so foundational. And so, I mean, I have learned a lot today already. As I told you when we started. Every time I talked to Dr. Joel, I learn something very applicable. I just set the stage for you, Dr. Joel. I knew you would deliver. I think you’ve taught us enough where we can learn for a long time with just that. So I’m so grateful that you are here. Any parting thoughts? Let’s talk about how people can get ahold of you. I think that your practice is extremely full and you’re extremely busy, but how can people get ahold of you? Where’s your website? How do we find you on social media?

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. So as far as thetruthaboutadrenalfatigue.com is my main website. So that’s where I have some free tools. And I have a masterclass that you can go and get some insight with, and also a free guide. And then, we put our videos on there. And I’m just starting to come out with drjoelrosen.com. But if you go on Instagram or YouTube, just Google Dr. Joel Rosen and that’s where you’ll find me. And last thing is, from what I learned from you, a lot of things in terms of Phase 2.5 Detox and the genomics, I think a lot of people who’ve tried everything could listen to this and really get their answers solved. But at the same time, I do feel that there’s a lot of misinformation and concepts about a genetic test, especially with MTHFR being the thing, or doctors saying it doesn’t matter ’cause it’s all environment. I think that’s awful. 

I think that if you’ve been struggling for a long time and you’re looking for more answers, you know how important that test is, not so much that I wanna give you supplements, or I wanna tell you that this gene isn’t working, but more so everything that we talked about, and where is the record skipping in this? And why, like this doesn’t make sense, you should be moving the needle further or faster if we’ve done all the things that we’ve talked about, why are we still having a challenge here? That’s where you can really unpack that, like you said, with Phase 2 detoxing alone or other types of things that come on the radar. Have you found that too, yourself, as far as the importance of that?

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Absolutely. It’s something where it’s a puzzle piece and it directs me to more precision care. And I do think that it has been bastardized a bit to treat the gene, treat the snip. But that’s not what high-level practitioners are doing with that data, they’re personalizing it. They’re doing exactly what Dr. Joel said, it’s part of who you are and what your body’s doing. And you can learn so much if you’re in the hands of a skilled practitioner like Dr. Joel. So Dr. Joel, thank you so much for your time. It has been excellent to see you. And I hope that we get to do this again, but take care, my friend, and have a lovely day.

Dr. Joel Rosen

Yeah, you too. Thank you so much, Kelly.