Why Anti-Aging Is BS!

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Hey, everybody. Dr. Diane, your libido doctor here. I am so excited for our next speaker here, Dr. Nicole Marcione. Welcome to the summit. I am so thrilled to be talking to you.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. This topic, this summit, and all the speakers are just so near and dear to my heart and my work’s mission. I am just so happy to be part of this whole community.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Awesome. We are happy to have you. We have such a fun series of questions and topics lined up. You guys, we are going to talk to Dr. Nicole about all sorts of things: aging and sensuality, how to get the most out of midlife, how to live midlife to your fullest from an aging graceful perspective, from a sensuality perspective, and more. Let us start with that. Let us talk about how sensuality and sexuality are tied into the bigger picture of health and wellness, especially as we age.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes. What I noticed when I first got into this work, whose Ph.D. is based in longevity and gerontology and aging and health and nutrition, these types of things, exercise, and well, I was working with clients. What I would find is that it is not just about eating kale, doing yoga, and meditating. Now, do not get me wrong; those are all very important, but they are very foundational. They are very basic. 

As I started digging into things that were deeper with my clients, what we discovered was so much more about identity and loss of connection to themselves, their desires, their dreams, their bodies, and almost self-loathing. A lot of times, especially in midlife, as we were going through perimenopause and maybe even into menopause. I am in my late 40s; I am in perimenopause now. this body that we are in is all of a sudden betraying us in so many ways? A lot of times people just focus on nutrition, movement, stress, and resilience, and those are important. 

But then, once we truly, truly look at what living longer means for us, we start going deeper into our relationships with others, our connection to our bodies, all of these things, because who wants to live to 100 if they are not happy or they do not like themselves and maybe do not want to live to 100? However, whatever age one wants to live, there are so many more studies now coming out specifically on sexuality and having sex, whether it is with ourselves, a partner, or multiple partners, that it keeps us younger, quote unquote in our physiological and biological systems are working at a higher, better level. 

This is my specialty. I believe my specialty is blending. I call it Sexy, Smart Aging, which is blending the science of longevity with the art of sensual living. Because I think if we just have one or the other, we are missing two huge pieces of the puzzle when it comes to aging well, and not just aging well, but aging extraordinarily. To be able to integrate those two, I feel, is the key to true longevity, to living our best life for as long as possible.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, you tied in so many things, and I think it is so true. There is just this misnomer in the society around. Getting older is supposed to mean death, and this is just happening because I am getting older. I remember when I was young, I remember hearing people who were in their 30s already saying things. I am just getting old. Then, of people in their 40s, I am not; I am just a couple of years younger than you. I am in my mid-40s, and I can just see it for myself. I can see it in others that I work with that we can start. We can feel better and better as we age. it does not have to be this decline.

I want to talk about your great reason why the term anti-aging is total B.S. But before we go there, let us just take a step back for a second. This degree you had, this doctorate in longevity, is super interesting. I am sure other people are wondering, Well, how did this happen? Because it is not something we hear about very often, people are getting educated to the level you have on this topic. How did you get to where you are? 

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes, it was by accident, but I guess the universe never had any accidents. I did not go to college after high school for extenuating circumstances that I will not. That is a whole other story. But I was always interested in health and wellness from a very young age. I ended up teaching Pilates, and I have been teaching Pilates for a very long time. 20 years ago, I started, and I noticed a lot of my older clients how their aging process was so dependent upon how active they were—physically active, mentally active, and engaged with others. This just piqued my interest. 

I decided to start my college path, you might say. I started with community college, which I tell people: do not be ashamed if that is where you start, because that is where I started. Then I transferred to the USC University of Southern California, where I got a Bachelor’s Degree in Life and Health through the School of Gerontology, and then it just snowballed into getting my Master’s Degree in Gerontology. While I was getting my master’s degree, I was very involved in research and my mentor’s lab. The next natural progression that I felt and was encouraged to go into was to apply to the Ph.D. program.

My actual dissertation work does not have anything to do with sexuality. It was on how mind-body interventions affect mobility and cognition in older adults. It was a lot of neuroscience, a lot of biomechanics, and the interaction between the two, and yes, I just kept going. I started in 2010 at the end of 2010 at Community College, and I finished in December 2019 with my Ph.D. It was just something I did. It took me a while to get there, but once I got there, I did not stop. 

That is how I learned about it, and I have always been interested in longevity and aging. I have cancer that runs in my family. That has been the backdrop of what I do not want to have in my own life and how so many cancers are preventable through lifestyle choices. Not all, but a lot of them are. That is what put me on this path. Then pretty early on, because most people are probably thinking, Well, if you have a Ph.D. why are you not a professor? Or why do you not have your lab and continue to do research?  

A couple of years later, unfortunately, or fortunately, I realized I did not want to spend the rest of my life writing grants, looking at data that my grad students have collected, and being a jerk to my grad students, because that is the hierarchy in academia for any of us who have either been students or professors. I decided I did not want to go on that trajectory. Let me tell you, I got a lot of flak for it, but I am so much happier now that I am not sitting in an ivory tower somewhere with my thoughts and discoveries being published years after the fact. But I can be boots on the ground, working with clients directly, through group programs, or my writing. It feels so good to me to be in this spot now. Thank you for asking.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes. You are still doing research. You are just researching people when you are talking to them. It has not changed.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Exactly. I just want to say, for anyone listening out there, do not feel too old to go back to school if your heart is pulling you that way. I graduated with my Ph.D. when I was 45—I guess 46—and I was always the oldest person. It was older than some of my advisors and the people on my dissertation committee. But it was okay. People looked up to me in some ways, including other students. If that is a calling for you, but you think, No way, I am just too old for that. No, you are not. If you want to do it, just go do it.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

That is a yes. Thank you for that advice. I had a couple of people in my medical school program who were in their 50s, and even one who was in her 60s. Never too late. That is a perfect lead-in to talking about anti-aging. Thank you for setting this up. Well, let us talk about anti-aging and why that term. Why that is a BS?

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes. I just cringe, and sometimes I have to use the term anti-aging just to get a point across because people understand what this common definition is. But for anti-aging, the only true anti-aging is death. If we are alive, we are aging. That is even if we are 20 or 60. That is why I say anti-aging is B.S. because there is no anti-aging. We can age well, or we can age poorly. Those are the choices, and those are the choices in our hands. When people talk about anti-aging, it is not something you are against; we are not against it. Because if we are against it, then, as I said, that means we are dead. 

To try to get our mindsets to shift from anti-aging to pro-aging, or, as I just wrote a post recently, a lot of people asked, Why do you defy aging? Again, we do not want to defy it. That is resisting, confronting, and standing up against. It is, No, this is inevitable. If everyone wants to live longer but nobody wants to age, that just cannot be true. People have to happen. How do we reconcile all those two? With our thoughts on it and our feelings about it, and how you just said the hope that there is hope and opportunity that lies ahead as opposed to, All my good years are behind me, which we hear so often, and that just is not true unless you make it true? 

I think we have all met the grouchy curmudgeon older person who just says everything is about the good old days. Yet we have also met people who are in their 80s and 90s, maybe even 100 if you are lucky enough to know some centenarians. They are vibrant and happy, and it is because they have realized that the best days are not behind them. They might have a lot of great memories behind them, but every living breath and every day is a gift and a privilege. We all know people who have died young. Aging is a privilege. It is not something to fight against or be anti, and today is the youngest I will ever be. That is neither good nor bad. Just a fact. 

What do we want to do with that fact? Do we want to sit and sulk that, I have gray hair and more wrinkles, and my cheekbones are a little sag here than they used to be, or my ass is a little sag here than it used to be or this body has carried me through so many experiences, amazing and hard, challenging and celebratory. It is keeping me going. I am so thankful for that. It is a lot when I work with my clients. Yes, it is nutrition; it is movement, but it is so much more about mindset and belief and tapping into our inner knowing.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Wonderful. I want to make sure to circle back around for our listeners. Remember what Dr. Nicole said at the beginning of this about aging? The process of aging is also connected with sensuality and sexuality. There is a way to do all of these things gracefully and beautifully in the intertwined. I just want to make sure nobody is losing that connection here. You bring up a great point about thinking about beliefs and minds and all these things with aging and the aging process. 

If people are trying to promote aging beyond lifestyle, I know a question that people are asking is, What about all those anti-aging products and services out there? What do you think about those? What are your opinions?

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes, I feel some of them are good to help. Maybe our skin is an important organ. We want to keep it healthy. Do not take care of your skin.  perhaps the products that have anti-aging labels are the ones for you or your services. But a lot of stuff is especially true in this age of biohacking.  do not get me wrong; I do. I love a lot of biohacking things, and yet so many people are touting that it causes people to live longer. For most of these things, the research and the evidence are just not there because we have not lived long enough to look back. 

I do love things in Blue Zones, where it is actual epidemiological, you might say, evidence, as opposed to intervention or experimental, because we just do not know if taking certain peptides or medications is going to help us live longer. Maybe the studies have been done in mice or yeast or worms or flies, which are a bunch of these models that longevity research is being done on, but most of it has not been done in human beings or the ones the studies are being done on. It just needs a lot longer for us to know whether it works or not.  

My caveat is: why are you looking at this product or service? Is it the gimmicky marketing that they are just getting to you with, or is it based on evidence? If they say it is, you want to ask for that evidence to not just believe it because there are so many people and you have your doctorate. I have my doctorate, but there are so many people out there who claim to be experts. Not that you need a doctorate to be an expert. I am not saying that. 

But so many people are claiming to be experts on certain things, and they are just Googling it and preaching the message on YouTube in a great way. Be smart about when something is called anti-aging because, as I do not know, there are just so many ways that these things could go wrong, or maybe they are not even harmful, but they are not even useful either. 

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I think it is such a good point. I feel the anti-aging movement is becoming stronger with the weight loss movement, or it is how many times there is this new product and it is. The way I describe stuff to my patients is, Okay, well, carnitine or any of these things that we sometimes say for weight loss can help you with weight loss. If you are the percentage of people for whom your weight gain is related that.

I think some of what you are saying is that if you are going to use some of these peptides, to do things that are more closely related to the study, perhaps it is to lower inflammation or help digestive function or sleep. Some of the things that are directly studied to used for that, but not necessarily for the extrapolated component that maybe down the road is going to help you from an aging perspective. 

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Totally. A lot of the studies that are being done on humans—guess who they are being done on? Not women, not cycling women, that is for sure. They are being done on men, and probably older white men mostly.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Let us all know, sitting here, that for those of us in this world, those results do not always transfer to women and most of the time, do not transfer the same to women. Yes, to do feel into if you do decide to do some of these therapies or use some of these products to be committed to yourself in knowing, Okay, this does not feel good or I, there is something in me that I know just I am not feeling better or saying and to stop it as opposed to being, Well, they said whoever they are. 

Because I think that is the other thing, Well, I heard so-and-so say it, so it must be good for me, and I am just going to push myself through it. I feel crap, and so too, we talked about this on the podcast. You were on my podcast and Lauren Murphy, last week and how to not push yourself through a certain thing. We are all an experiment of one and figure out what works for us. I am not saying do not dabble in things or experiment, but also make sure when to cut it out of your life and move on to something else.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

What I hear in that too is: follow you, your intuition, and your feelings; do not forget about that.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

I want to connect this all back to desire and desire back in midlife, and the libido from that standpoint. Where does desire go? Why do so many people get to midlife and all of a sudden get to this point where I hear some people say things around me, I just do not care about sex anymore. What happens there?

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes, I think we are exhausted, and we cannot have one more thing on our to-do list. That usually is what falls off the schedule, and it makes sense. Midlife women are called the sandwich generation because most of us do not have children, but most midlife women have young children still at home, or they are getting them prepared to go off to college, as well as aging parents who are having to figure out what we do with mom and dad now. Perhaps their health is deteriorating, their cognitive ability is poor, or they do not live nearby. It almost always falls on the daughter now. Not always, but almost always. Especially as the oldest daughter, I feel this as well. The eldest daughter, if there is more than one, typically feels this burden. 

Then that is just family. That is not work. You might have a career in a corporate job; you might be a C-level manager, VP, or something; you might be a senior VP; or you might be an entrepreneur. Everything is on you, and you have teams. Women in general just have so much of life pulling at them all the time and living in the society we do does not celebrate you taking care of yourself. It celebrates you putting yourself at your lowest point. You are such a good person. You sacrifice everything for your family. You are such a good daughter. You are such a good mother. You do everything for everyone. We get off on. I am wondering if you have read Existential Kink. 

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes. 

Nicole Marcione, PhD

I have put together our last names, but anyway, that feeds our egos for sure. It feels good when people acknowledge that, yet we do not acknowledge our desires. If we can just sit down and have a big one and learn what your desires are. Because a lot of people I do not even know. It has been so long since I have thought about what my body wants and what my desire is. I do not even know. I like to say, what you get envious of when you see someone else doing it. 

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Hmm.  

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Maybe it is another woman taking a trip by herself. Maybe it is a spa day. Your friend got to do it the whole day. Maybe it is just taking a nap. Maybe someone has their mornings free and makes an hour every morning for themselves and you are like, Who does she think she is or must be nice? That should put out an alert—a red flag. That is something my heart desires. How can I take baby steps or even big leaps to bring more of that in? 

A lot of that comes back into connecting with our bodies, connecting with our pleasure. Now that can go from the pleasure of enjoying a beautiful cup of coffee in the morning, listening to some music all the way through, to a mind-blowing orgasm. There are so many steps in between those because I know some of the listeners are probably,  yes, I could drink a nice cup of coffee for 5 minutes quiet time, but mind-blowing orgasm? No way. Yet, it is these baby steps that get us there. 

I am sure there are so many tools in the summit that are going to be talked about or have been talked about for getting ourselves there. You need to explore a little bit with your own body, bring in some toys, talk about some fantasies, and even read some books. It might feel a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit risque, but it is going to start to open up things in your body and intelligence that we have not tapped into, wisdom that we have not tapped into in a very long time that is still there, and all of a sudden the veil gets opened, all the crap gets taken off, and you are, I can take care of these things for me and take care of my family and do the work.  

Tapping into this pleasure, desire, and sensuality is going to make me even better at whatever I am doing. More productive, more loving, and more generous because we are not freaking grumpy and resentful of everyone around us because we are doing everything for them and doing nothing for ourselves. People start noticing that. Then, what the great thing is, they start helping you create more of that in your life because they notice. Mom is not so cranky or my partner is not so busy, or which do you want to have more playtime? It is this snowball effect that is hard to get started, but once you do, it gains momentum and starts to feel good.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes. There are so many things that tease apart from what you said. I love it all so much. One of the things I want to comment on is that I think there is a misperception in our culture and society around the words common and normal. What you are describing around, is so busy. Take care of the kids. Take care of the job. Take care of the house; take care of the partner. All these things. Because, commonly, we get this way as women in midlife, that it is so easy to miss, to confuse common with normal, that this is a healthy normal, just part healthy or not just a normal part of life. 

What you said is true, but it does not have to be. It is just that that is the program and the cycle that we have gotten into, and we can somehow get out of that. Also just that, I appreciate what you said about envy, too. There is a great book by Daniel Laporte. If you read this one, it is called Desire Mapping. It goes into desire and how to find your desires. It is a cool resource for people. But you broke down; let us keep it simple. Let us keep it simple. Emotions are flags; envy is looked at sometimes as bad, but what you are bringing up is also information about your desires and what you want.  

I think that reframing that emotion is just huge. I wanted to mention that. Then my next question is on desire, and as people and as we age, especially in midlife, why do you feel we are not speaking about desire much? Is it taboo? What do you think is going on there with why this is what you desire? Okay, this is a thing I am going to say, maybe after listening to something like this with my girlfriends or something. But beyond that, we are going to keep it hush-hush. What’s happening there?

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Well, I think, women’s needs, wants and desires for years, and when I say years, millennia have been shut down. Sometimes it was dangerous; you would be put to death if you were talking about certain things in some societies. Then, just coming to the modern day, we live in a patriarchal society. For women to be able to succeed and reach certain levels, we have had to act in a very masculine way, go do, everything we need to do hard, hustle, and grind. Even though we are women. 

We do not operate a lot of times in that way without suffering in some other part.  so, to get to certain levels, either in our work or our family, to gain the approval of people, to look good to others, or to not seem like we are too much, we do not talk about sex. We do not talk about desire because that is selfish, and that is for those of us who were raised in high-control, evangelical, strict religions. Are you talking about your sexuality, your desire, your lust, or your pleasure outside of procreation? It is sinful. Even if you were not raised in that condition, we still live in a very puritanical culture.  Especially, I know people from all over the world are watching this, but here in the United States, it is very puritanical, especially in some areas. 

There this air is permeating everything we take in, and it is not acceptable for women to talk about this. Women should be nurturers, women should be mothers, and women should be caregivers. Yes, we do all of those things, but we are also free and open. We are creators, and we are made to receive pleasure on so many different levels. Yet we shut that down, and it has been made to be shameful. That is, and I know this is part of your mission, too, and the summit is to bring this to the forefront. We do not have to talk about BDSM and Kink unless you want to; we could go there too, but it could just be that I want something—a furry blanket to lie in or a beautiful wheel to massage myself in and make myself feel good and sensual—and touch my body in some way. 

Again, there are so many different ways to do this, but to not be ashamed of it and to find out, as you mentioned, talking about girlfriends, watching this with girlfriends, and then talking about community is so important because a lot of times I feel women should feel isolated, especially if they are so involved in their careers, so involved in their family, and just pushing forward. Do not take the time to have that community around them where they can speak about these things. It is not being looked at as judgmental, but it is. Yes, you should try this. Or I found this product; or, tell me more because I am interested. That is what got you going, lit you up, and made you feel alive and again, this could be sexual, but it could also just be as a human being. 

Aliveness is, I feel we have lost that, and instead, we are just trudging through. Then again, it comes back to this patriarchal society expecting women to just be quiet, do their jobs, and take care of everyone else. Once they are done, having babies set out to pasture because, as menopausal women, once we get to that point, what are we good for? We are good for a time, let us just say. But this is where society has put us.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I say a lot that I think the feminist movement was amazing for helping and getting feminine more opportunities and all these things. But what you are tapping on is that everything, of course, has its way of, say, integrating. That was needed during that time to integrate feminine and, in females, more into society, especially here in the United States. But there was a cost to it, and the cost was exactly what you were talking about. It is entering society, but doing the roles of society, whatever they are, in a more masculine way to get that capacity. There is that loss there. I am starting to feel like I did after you interviewed me on your podcast, The Femme Factor podcast. I could talk to you all day long, but unfortunately, we do not have it all day long. 

I make sure we leave people with some actionable steps. Then how do I get a hold of you? From a standpoint, I do see tips that people can do for their sensuality. I feel you already mentioned some small things. From day to day, find your pleasure throughout the day. Is it that wrap with that cup of coffee? What is your pleasure? If it is something more dramatic than that, that is beautiful, too. But what other tips do you have from a sensuality perspective that are actionable for people?

Nicole Marcione, PhD

One thing I want to mention is that, because we hit you, we had a bunch of them throughout this conversation. But the environment is so important. If you can take yourself out of your usual environment either for an hour, a day, or a week, this is why retreats are so powerful or days at the spa because you can truly find what your thoughts are without being distracted by the laundry or the human beings or whatever is in your usual thing. 

Here is why I am so passionate about this: just a quick story. I thought I was broken. I thought I was maybe even asexual. I was so uninterested in sex. Even though I was working on this journey and all this, and I was, well, maybe it is perimenopause, maybe it is just because I am hitting 40 and blah blah, and I went to a retreat in Baja, and the conversations that I was having with people were so interesting and stimulating, and I was not having sex with anyone down there. It is so much. I was so turned on, so turned on, juicy wet turned on. When I went back to my room, Self-Pleasure, I did not even think I had talked about this on the podcast or out loud, but I think this is the time to do it.

What I realized is, wait a minute, I am broken. She is a lot down there. It was my environment that needed to be switched up, my conversations that needed to be switched up, bringing in interesting people to have these conversations that needed to be switched off. I feel that is one of the juiciest tips. If you can put yourself in a different environment, maybe it is a little bit scary or out of your comfort zone, but you will discover things about yourself that will just transform you when you are on your own when you are brave enough to step out of your usual place of being and thinking. I would say that is one big juicy tip, along with all the others that we have done.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Amazing. Just so you guys know, Dr. Nicole is giving you an amazing guide on more juicy tips for improving your sensuality in midlife. Make sure you go and grab that because that will help continue this conversation for you. Tell us how people get a hold of you and know you have this great membership where people can work with you and where you can help them. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Yes. If anyone wants to reach out to me, I am on Instagram: @drnicolemarcione, and I created this membership called Sensuality, Sexuality, and Aging, specifically for what we were talking about to create a safe space for women to gather and to bravely talk about all the taboo topics, whether you are not feeling it or you are feeling it. Toys, experiences, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. We will work through conditioned beliefs, but it is just somewhere. I just wanted to create a space where people could feel they could come and talk about it or be a fly on the wall. 

Not everyone’s willing to speak, but I, as you can see, can talk a lot for four days on this topic. I just felt there was a big gap. A lot of people are either talking about hormones or they are talking about sex very clinically. But to bring in the sensuality and pleasure power and tap into our bodies, just you talking about libido and bringing in the more—I do not know if you want to say woo-woo side as opposed to the clinical side—but a spiritual aspect, a deeper connection to yourself on the topics that a lot of times are so isolating for us.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, wonderful. You guys, we will have all of that in Dr. Nicole’s show notes as far as how to get that information, sign up for contacts, and more. Thank you again. This has been so wonderful, as always. appreciate your time, and thank you for joining us.

Nicole Marcione, PhD

Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of the summit.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

We will. See you guys next time, everybody.