Well hi everybody. Welcome back is Doctor Drew Ramsey and we're here for another, piece of our wonderful series, Depression and Anxiety Solutions. And I have with me a wonderful psychiatrist, a good friend, Doctor Gregory Scott Brown.

He's really one of the rising stars of psychiatry. We're going to be talking all about self-healing, which is really the focus of the summit. What can we all do in our everyday lives?

What are the habits that we can engage in? How can we take better care of our mental and emotional health? Doctor Brown, it's so great to see you, buddy. Welcome to the some.

Nice to be with you too. Thanks for having me. Well, we're. We're going to be taking some of the real valuable lessons from the Self Healing mind. Doctor Brown's latest book, all about the power of self-healing that we possess and the real powerful lifestyle medicine.

Greg, let's just get started right there. Can you tell us a little bit what what is the self-healing mind? So the something I do, it's this idea that, you know, self-care is is evidence based.

Medicine is a powerful tool. You know, I think many people by now know that, there's a lot of evidence showing that antidepressants can work. Anxiety medications can work.

But then it when it comes to self-care, we think, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe nutrition won't work. Or maybe mindfulness or breathwork won't work. But you know, what I offer here in the book is that there are a time tested and evidence based strategies that anyone can use, regardless of where you live or you walk in life that can help improve your mental health, including, you know, reducing symptoms of depression and anxiety.

Craig, why do you. Think there is that bias that, you know, some of the lifestyle factors or intervention that you mentioned meditating, or, you know, improving our sleep hygiene.

Or why sometimes don't we think those work? You know, I think it's interesting because the lifestyle factors that you and I advocate for have been around, you know, forever, right?

Since before, even Prozac, was FDA approved, I think, in 1994. Right. But I think that, you know, in today's high demanding, fast paced society, I think many of us are looking for, a quick fix.

I mean, we have these new, faster acting, drugs that are coming out of the old. It's a fast acting antidepressant that was recently, FDA approved. You know, we're looking into, treatments like ketamine and psilocybin, which, again, there are a lot of good evidence to support, those treatments.

But I think we just want, treatments that will work faster. And I think we have, a lot more, you know, expectations when it comes to the results that those types of treatments can produce rather than these self-care, techniques.

Greg, I hope everybody listening really took that in, because I know that really affects me and how I deal with my mental health in terms of, you know, as much as we all advocate lifestyle takes effort and it's not immediate.

And sometimes we're not sure, you know, is eating these better foods really going to help my anxiety? Is meditating today really going to, you know, make a difference with my depression.

And so we don't have sometimes that immediate, you know, feeling that we can with other interventions. Can we think about the. Parts maybe that we should look to in our life and lifestyle that are the biggest contributors to to increasing the amount of depression and the amount of anxiety that people experience.

You know, I think right now, Jillian, I'm not sure what your experience has been talking to patients. I think burnout is is huge. And so we know in 2019, the World Health Organization, recognized burnout as a clinical and occupational syndrome.

So if someone if you're waking up feeling cynical about your day or cynical about your life, you're, physically and mentally exhausted all the time, and you're starting to notice that you're not performing as well at work or at home.

I mean, those are symptoms of burnout. And some studies actually show that about 90% of us are feeling burnout. And we know that the path between burnout and depression or some of these other more serious mental illnesses is a slippery slope.

So I think that's a huge contributing factor these days. Burnout is something we're all hearing about. I think a lot of people listening really resonate with.

It does lead to that challenging spot, that if you are in the midst of a busy life, which most people are, it maybe for you that's dealing with, you know, family or work, it's not so clear sometimes what to do about burnout.

I remember I spoke to the American Psychiatric Association president several years ago, and she was reporting to me she really needed two solid weeks off that that first week.

You know, she just really was recuperating. Napping. And it was in that second week, she began to feel better from burnout. And I remember thinking that that's.

A tall order for a lot of people. Right. Taking two weeks off. And I think that's. And what's the. Reason for. Starting to feel burned. Out? Yeah. I mean, I think that's another reason why we're looking to these medications, right? So like, I don't have I don't have time for self-care.

I don't have time to meditate. You know, I don't have time to get a good night's sleep. Right? So if I take this pill, you know, and sleep for four hours, right, or don't take time to prepare nutrient dense meals, right, then that will help me get through my busy life.

Right? But I think that we have to continue to remind people that, you know, even if you're carving out ten minutes a day, right? We're not you're not asking people here to, you know, totally revamp, their life.

Just a little bit of time every day can can go a long way when it comes to self-care. Oh, such such a big point, Greg. And I think everybody who's thinking about self-care knows this is true.

But we, we get a distortion in our perception now that cooking a nutrient dense meal, especially if you're struggling with depression or anxiety, feels like a Herculean task.

That's a mountain to climb. Let's go to the grocery stores. Chopping all the vegetables is the pleasure of it, and the often efficiency of it, gets lost and gets kind of distorted because the symptoms.

So I think it's a very important aspect of burnout for us to recognize, because there is a way you do have to take some actions when you're feeling, you know, overwhelmed, cynical, as you mentioned, you know, not having a lot of motivation, maybe not believing in yourself and in the efforts that you can take to improve your mental health.

So, addressing burnout is just a huge a huge part of self-care and a huge part, it sounds like for you, Greg, as we think about the self-healing mind, you know, what can we do in our daily life and our daily practice?

Can you tell us a little bit, you know, the. Just ten minutes? We hear that a lot, and I'm not sure people believe that. What do you recommend. To patients if we have just ten minutes in terms of, you know, improving, our mood, improving our anxiety, it's kind of a tall order.

I think all of us, a psychiatrist, tend to avoid that question. It's, you know, it's about, maybe, longer term or deeper work, but we've only got ten minutes.

What can we do? I think you I mean, you want to start where you can, right? So in the book, I outline five essential pillars of self-care sleep, spirituality, nutrition, breathwork and movement.

And, you know, people have read the book, oftentimes will ask me, okay, you know, there's there's a lot there. Where do I start? And maybe it's, you know, you have ten minutes and you're just focusing on paying attention to your breath that day in breathwork.

Right? So each of us takes between 20 and 30,000 breaths every single day. You know? So I'll talk about an evidence based practice that can help reduce anxiety.

That's probably one of the most underutilized ones, right? Because we know that there's several different ways that we can manipulate, our breath, whether it's four, seven, eight breathing, that's when we inhale, for four seconds, hold for seven seconds and exhale for eight seconds.

For a practice that is commonly utilized in yoga called, pranayama, breath, which is, you know, some people call it the Victoria's breath. It's when you, apply some, constriction to your glottis, the back of your throat, you inhale and you exhale.

You kind of hear the sound of the ocean in your ears. I mean, these types of, practices have been studied, drew, and they've been shown to activate the parasympathetic nervous system.

Also increase the presence of, Gaba in the brain, increase alpha waves on EEGs. Right. And these are all physiologic, markers of rest and relaxation. So I'd say if someone just has ten minutes.

Right, reading about different types of breathwork and just, you know, paying attention to your breath for ten minutes is a good place to start. Yeah.

And I think anybody, wherever you are listening, I'd ask you right now just to do a four, seven, eight breath is you're listening to the rest of this episode meaning just inhaling, through your nose, holding the breath for a moment.

I love this part personally, where you feel the heart beating. You feel the sense of stillness. For me, that gives me a sense of control. Okay? I can create a sense of calm and stillness of myself.

And then the exhalation. I like this through pursed lips. Right? And it's. I try to make mine really long. I kind of break the, the counting rule in the sense that I inhale until my lungs are full.

I hold my my, breath for, you know, a number of moments, and then I exhale as long as I can. And that exhalation, that really long exhalation, is is just a wonderful a part of this.

And I think oftentimes people miss. So try a few of those as you're listening and and and, Yeah. Test us out. See? See what you think of this again starting with ten minutes.

That first step, especially if you're burned out, you've got to see this is a really small step, folks. It's got to be something you can achieve. And that's why we want you to try it right now.

So Greg, in addition to being a board certified psychiatrist in active practice, I also know you're a Yogi. Yoga has been a huge part of your mental health and your mental fitness.

Can you tell us about your. Involvement in yoga, what got you started, and how it helps? So I actually started practicing yoga, after getting a, I think, a group about two decades ago, and I had no idea how yoga was going to change my life.

But, at the time, what I noticed was that after I went to a yoga class, I not only felt better physically, but, I felt, a sense of calmness. I felt a sense of peace.

And it would be years later until I came to appreciate that yoga, and specifically the combination of movement and breath, is actually evidence based.

Practice is an evidence based practice that can actually help reduce anxiety, and boost mood. Now, a little bit earlier, we were talking about the power of breathwork.

One of the other, self-care pillars that I discuss in self-healing mind is movement. Right. And so there's a lot of evidence that when we move our bodies, we're actually allowing our, neurons, our brain cells, to communicate with each other more efficiently by enhancing the presence of, protein called brain derived neurotrophic factor, Bdnf.

Right. So that allows so of acts like fertilizer in the brain, and it allows serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine, these chemicals that are really important for our mental health, to reach optimal levels.

So, what I love about yoga again is that it allows breathwork and movement, to be combined for that purpose. And everybody, I want you to know. Doctor Brown is talking about movement.

We're not talking about exercise. And this is a very intentional decision that you and I have made in our language, Greg, that the exercise culture. No pain, no gain, this extreme notion of fitness, you know, that that works for some people.

And it's great for them. They're very engaged. For most people. That doesn't work for most people who are struggling with a more sedentary lifestyle or are struggling with depression and anxiety symptoms, which can really make it hard for us to get out or engage or do something like a yoga class movement.

Such an important way for us to think about it. And the data tells us that movement you know, Greg, do you saw that recent study, the most effective movement, in terms of effect size for treating depression more than antidepressants, more than, you know, aerobic exercise was dancing.

I believe it. And, it's just a yeah, I'm sure a lot of folks watching saw that kind of study make the make the head and make the rounds in the media. But oh, no, I'm inspired to work my.

Sample. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's something that a lot of folks, a lot of men, you know, the last time you danced was at a friend's wedding, maybe, but it's a great example of how we need to reconceptualize how physical activity.

Have we talk about it and what kind of recommendations we're making to patients. And I'm not telling everyone, go, go get dancing. But I certainly mention it.

I have a patient who part of a recovery from a severe depression for her when she took up tango dancing again. Kind of blew my mind. Really depressed woman to.

Say, seeing her for years. And. And she was really, you know, much perkier when I said, hey, you know, how's it going? Was it this was it that. Said, you know what it. Was?

I started dancing again. And it's kind of illustrated, the findings of the study in my clinical practice in a way that really, impacted me, really made me mention this a little bit more, folks.

And I would I would imagine cancer, too, because I'll tell you, when I was in, when I was in medical school, I did a Lindy Hop class for a couple of months.

Right. And one of the things that, you know, they play Louis Armstrong. I'm not a very good dancer, but, that was that was an enlightening experience.

And I'd say for a couple of different reasons, not only the movement aspect of it, but connection as well. I mean, you're out, you're meeting new people, you're getting out of the house.

You know, and we know that we are enduring a loneliness epidemic, as well, too. So any way that we can connect with other people, whether you're connecting with a friend, or you're connecting with your partner, your spouse by way of dancing, I mean, you could see how that would improve mental health.

As well. Yeah. There's something playful about dancing and something about overcoming our own, maybe shyness or anxiety about people seeing us. People seeing us move our bodies.

You know, that that trauma, it feels like almost everyone has about that middle school dance where you're feeling so awkward and you know, you're hearing that mantra, dance like no one's watching you, but everyone's watching.

So, really, I. You know, I appreciate folks who are watching and listening, maybe struggling with really, some depressive symptoms, anxiety symptoms, maybe.

This sounds like really, you know, an extreme task signing up for a dance class. But, if it's in your wheelhouse, one of those things that can really help you in terms of movement, in terms of mood, in terms of anxiety and playfulness.

Right. That kind of, fun, playful feeling you get with other people. Now let's get back to yoga for a. Second, though, because I want to I want to give people a couple poses in this, in this talk, or at least one that there are there are a couple of yoga poses that that help because, you know, going back to that notion that we just need to start if we're struggling with self-care, with a few minutes a day, you know, everybody thinks yoga. I mean, I just did this.

I was like, oh, I should go to yoga class. I should sign up. There's a couple studios close by. Where am I going to find the time? If we only have, you know, a few minutes?

Are there some poses that you find effective for yourself in your patients? You know, my favorite pose, is probably the easiest one. And that's the asana.

So at the end of yoga class, submissive. Asana. Secure, you're laying on your back, right? Your your feet are spread your arm, your palms are facing up.

I mean, it's it's a meditative pose that really allows you. I mean, some people will choose to put, one hand on their heart. The other hand on their belly. Right.

You can feel your heartbeat. I feel the rise and fall of your belly. Your eyes are closed. And you can almost when you're in that pose, you can usually arrive to that pose at the end of a yoga class.

But you can almost feel the stress, the tension, the anxiety from the day just just melting away. Right. So you're physically just letting go of everything.

And so I think it's a great it's a great place to start again. It's not physically demanding. We're not, you know, just that I'm not suggesting that you have to stand on top of your head or do anything that's going to, you know, exert yourself, physically.

But, I think that's a great place to start. There's another practice called, Yoga Nidra that, has some really good evidence, actually, a psychologist by the name of, Richard Miller, who did a lot of studies, looking into the relationship between yoga nidra and, sleep quality.

So back in the 70s, he was doing these studies and found that 10 to 15 minutes of yoga nidra a day can actually improve, sleep, quality. Right. And most of the yoga nidra practice, takes place in Sebastiano lying on your back.

Right. So, I think that that's, a great pose for, you know, anyone is new to yoga, to try out. For folks who. Maybe, are thinking this is just lying on my back on the floor, is it?

And a little maybe skeptical. Is there a way to kind of, Invoke a little bit more of the feeling you're talking about? I really like the recommendation of the hand on the heart.

Hand on the belly or palms up. Little simple adjustments like that. Right? You know, I think I think the most important thing here, Joe, if anyone is skeptical, and I'd say a lot of people are, is to really give yourself permission to acknowledge two things.

After you say you're in Sebastiano, you're spending five minutes, their hand in your heart, one hand on your heart, the other hand on your belly, paying attention to your breath, paying attention to your thoughts.

Do that for five minutes and then give yourself permission to ask yourself, okay, how does my body feel after this exercise? And be brutally honest with yourself, right.

And then what's the state of my mind? How does my mind feel at the end of this exercise? Now I'll say that most people, not everyone, but most people will notice a positive improvement, in the way that their body and their mind feels.

And that's what I think will allow people to continue to come back to that. But if you just do it and then go on about your day, you know, without necessarily making that connection, that, hey, I feel better when I do this and it's easy to take experiences like that for granted.

Yeah, it's easy to stay in the cynicism that things don't work. But everybody listening, can relate to that idea. I think some of us, especially who are struggling with our mental health, we get a little stubborn, you know, and maybe, are aren't as, optimistic.

Of course, that's part of the illness. And, you know, kind of live in some worry and some doubt. And so, being honest, but also noticing the effects, it's hard to take a few deep breaths if you're upset and not have it have some noticeable effect.

And it's like, hey, you know how long? You know, I'll just I'll just add this. I think it's really important when it comes to Prozac, for example. Like, how long does it take for Prozac to work?

You're not going to notice an effect immediately, right? It takes weeks. So for these antidepressants to produce an effect. But why do why do patients you to take their pill every day.

Right. Because they believe that after that two week three week four week mark, it's going to start to work. And oftentimes it does. So I would argue and I think evidence, supports this argument that when it comes to yoga, even, you know, assuming it's vascular pose or, you know, four seven, eight breathing, just paying attention to your breath works a lot faster, right, than some of these antidepressants, because, again, most people will notice a response even after 60s of intentional breath work.

It's a very powerful thing. It's a really great point for us all to remember that there's a consistency and an investment of time, and if we try something once or twice and throw it away, or go to one dance lesson and it reminds you of your a square dance, that's it, as opposed to sticking it out.

I have a patient is really been inspiring me with this. He's signed up for some, you know, different groups, really introverted gentlemen, really hard for him to socialize.

But he keeps going. And he said to me, you know, I keep going. It's volunteering at the shelter. He's volunteering at habitat for humanity. And, you know, after it's been about a month, you know, he's he's he's starting to notice more connections.

He's got more kind of, you know, fun interactions going on with people. But it's still a little, you know, it's. Still a challenge. And so change takes time.

It doesn't take forever, but making sure that when you're engaged in the practice of lifestyle medicine and engaging your self-healing mind, that you make sure that you have an appropriate time horizon.

There is an expectation that you know it's all better right away. And I know that, most folks, listening have experience with their mental health. Don't feel that way.

You know, we know that it takes time that things go up and down. Craig. Yeah. I can't get through. This interview without asking you about spirituality, because it's not something that gets talked about enough in mental health.

That there's there's been, I think, a renewed interest in that. There is certainly, more of a focus, but I'm not sure people know what to do if you weren't raised within a church or spiritual institution, you know, it's often a little elusive.

Can you tell us a little bit of how you guide people to take care of their spiritual health? So what I find is this one of my favorite things to talk about, drew, because when I ask patients, I ask all of my patients at their first appointment, if they believe spirituality is important for their mental health or what role spirituality plays in mental health.

And I would say almost all of them will tell me that it's important, regardless of whether or not they're religious. Right. And so I think the important thing here to keep in mind is that religion is just one of many manifestations or one of many ways to practice spirituality.

I think when most people think about spirituality, the word that comes to mind is connection, right? People who are religious will, view their spiritual spirituality as a way of connecting, to a higher power like God through prayer.

Right. But people who aren't religious might view their spirituality as, altruism, selfless service. You know, connecting with the people around them or connecting with their environment or connecting with their inner self.

By way of meditation. Right. So the thing that spirituality does is it gives people, I think, a sense of, of purpose, and it can be a very grounding experience.

As well. Well, thank you for that. And it's such a nice, note for us to, to think about, this way, that spirituality is often just considered a religion.

And if you, if you didn't have that or don't have that in your life, as opposed to this notion that really it's about, fostering a sense of human connection or spiritual connection to a higher power, to nature, to the self, a way of really settling in and thinking about, a larger purpose for ourselves, something that's really important, especially when we're struggling, you know, having that beacon, that lighthouse, that you have a sense, a clear sense is a purpose for yourself, really, really important, especially in darker moments, to to keep moving towards that light.

So thank you for that, Greg. Are there. Readings or. Exercises or. You know, if I were your patient, I said. You know, Greg, I know spirituality. Is important for mental health, but, you know, kind of burnout, don't have a lot of time for, like, I don't know what what should I do?

What kind of things. Do you recommend? Well, I mean, connecting with your inner self. I mean, we we already discussed meditation is great for that. I think altruism again, volunteering your time, I mean, I, I think I personally think that that can be, a powerful way to really see how you connect with the people around you.

I mean, you may be feeling totally worthless, but in that small act, you know, I always think of my grandmother when I would spend summers with her every day.

You know, she never had a whole lot of money. But every summer, I mean, every Monday we'd go down to the soup kitchen and we'd make, soup for the homeless community.

Right. And, you know, it's like, that would totally fill her cup, right? It's like I'm. I'm here for a reason. I, I'm I'm giving back. I'm I'm contributing.

I mean, you think that she where was the wealthiest person to live, you know, in that in that moment. Right. So I think even just looking for for small things like that, like, how can I give back to someone else today, right?

How can I fill someone else's cup? In many ways can feel like can can allow people to feel like, okay, they're here for a reason. And there's a broader purpose that they may not even understand.

And that can totally help when it comes to, allowing people to, to navigate, depression or other, mental illnesses, as well. So such a wonderful piece of, counsel for us, little kernel, a little nugget of wisdom, as we say, or a pearl, as we say in medicine, this notion of volunteer, of giving to others when we're struggling with ourself.

It is such a powerful lesson. I'm sure everyone who's experienced that, knows something about what Doctor Brown is. Speaking of, Greg, I found myself in the in the, mission shelter on Friday just a few minutes ago.

Been called there. They had a, someone who was a little agitated, and I hadn't been in that setting in a while. Used to be in community mental health when I started my career.

And I walked in and. And there is this a big commercial kitchen and just such a vibrant group of individuals, 365 days a year, 24 seven. They have a food pantry, if you want to come in and get your clothes, laundered or if you need some some fresh clothes, let's say for an interview or some interview prep, they help with all that you can stay there for weeks.

And my heart was so full. I got home and my wife was like, wow, you are in a great mood. And I think for me, it was something what you're speaking about of it was, really felt like, in some ways a calling, a very spiritual place for me.

I went back the next day. I just set and had a cup of coffee, chatted with some people, and, and, I'm hoping to follow in the footsteps of your grandma and start going over maybe once a month, maybe a couple times a month to just help cooking, because that's the way that I really feel called, and it feels very meaningful to me.

I think part of my friendship and relationship with you is I pay more attention to those things. So I don't have the same, religious background that you do.

But you really, you know, your family really influenced me to kind of open up to the spirit a little bit more and pay attention to those. So, really important part of ourself that doesn't get talked about enough in mental health.

The notion of, of our spiritual health, how do we handle it? How do we care for it? Greg, it ties. Right into building community. You know, so often people have communities through their community faith or, through their community at work.

You talk in your mind about community and how it's important for us. We are in a loneliness epidemic, along with some of the great tips of even like volunteering.

Or there are other ways that you see people doing a great job building community for themselves. Yeah, I mean, especially in this toxic it's kind of like we're we we're kind of reliving, in many ways the political climate that, we had endured four years ago, which I mean, I think in many ways, there's a lot we learned from the last time around.

But I think, drew, you know, you've heard me say this before. We have we have to talk to each other. We have to be curious about each other's backgrounds and beliefs before we are so quick to judge.

And I think that there's a huge opportunity here with all of the differences that we think we have to learn about the people, around us. You know, you know, my relationship with, with my dad and, you know, he has his political views.

He's met a gentleman, at his church who has totally, upset political views. And he does, and they went out and they had breakfast together. Right. And, you know, when he was sharing something like that, when I just thought that was that was beautiful.

I mean, they're both decent people who love their country, who disagree, and they're able to sit down and and have a meal together. Right. And so I think I think we need more of that.

And I think that that can go a long way when it comes to, allowing us to feel more connected with each other and really improving that, that loneliness epidemic, too.

I mean, even if it's something as simple as you know, if you're walking in your neighborhood and there's a neighbor who's out that you haven't talked to before, introducing yourself and, and, and just having a conversation, I mean, things like that don't happen nearly as much, as they should.

If it's a great, it's a great point. I noticed a recent walk on on the way to work. Keep walking by the same, same guy, and I just, you know, I hadn't said I'd have stuff to do.

I said, hey, I'm Drew Ramsey, walk down the street, walk by. All the times I really wanted to say hi and introduce myself. And we had a, you know, nice little moment.

Now when I walk by, we wave and we smile. You know, it's it's those little pieces, you know, sometimes the community is this big, you know, big thing, and it is.

But, putting together those little pieces, taking someone to breakfast, calling a friend or a colleague sitting down, somebody you disagree with. And it's such a great feeling when you can go from disagreement and and consternation to connection. Right.

That really is a place I think a lot of people feel the spirit. And so. Right. Building community is a huge part of, you know, our mental health and helping us with anxiety and depression and really doesn't get emphasized enough that, you know, as important sometimes as it is going to therapy or consulting with mental health professional is volunteering and investing in your community and, saying hi to people and pushing yourself a little bit, you know, tough to do or not feeling well, but really, really essential.

Greg, I want to shift just. A little bit and end with the notion of male mental health because, you know, everyone watching is either man or has some men in their life and, and we know that male mental health is a big problem.

We're talking more about it. You and I have been, producing a. Interview series about male mental health called Friday Sessions, in Men's Health magazine and on their Instagram.

Really every week now for, for years, talking to prominent women and women about mental health. It's been a wonderful and ongoing conversation. What can we do?

And when, around male mental health to better improve it right now? Well, I mean, and you know, this, but just just for your audience again, when it comes to depression, for example, most statistics show that women are diagnosed with depression about twice as often as men are now.

Many people may interpret that, to think that women are at higher risk for developing depression when they're actually not right, because we know that the suicide rate among men is about 3 to 4 times that, of women.

Right. And and part of the reason why, in my view, is because men are not talking about it. Right? They're not being diagnosed, they're not getting treatment.

And I think part of the work that you and I have been doing over the past several years, with Men's Health and other platforms, is encouraging men to have these conversations, number one, and then just showing them what conversations about mental health between two men, looks like, I and I think we've, we've, we've modeled a lot of that.

So, I think that's something that, that we can all do right now is again, ask people how they're doing, and give particularly men. Ask them how they're doing the men in our lives and then give them the time and the space to actually respond.

Right. I mean, we need to to be able to sit down and, and actively listen, I think, rather than just, you know, kind of dismissing these conversations or making them quick.

Because you'd be surprised. I mean, what, you know, profound, beautiful stories are, are behind some of these guys. If we actually give them the time and space to, to talk, I think we could do a much better job of doing that.

Yeah, it's a great point. I, I hate it when there's this like, oh yeah, men don't have feelings or complex emotional lives. I mean, it's just not true.

Greg and I, I sit with men and women all day, pretty much every day. And, you know, men and women, their inner worlds have a lot of similarities, anxieties, worries about appearance, worries about self-esteem and potency and, existential angst and depression and anxiety and is, Greg said, there's so many beautiful stories.

I think one of the mistakes sometimes we make our deal with men in mental health, too, just kind of like we make with mental health when we're listening, is that we feel we need to do something.

Now that we hear a story from a man and finally opening up about their feelings and we need to, you know, give them a great piece of advice or tell them what to do or.

Need to listen. I really encourage everyone when. Yeah, just to listen. And then, to to. Be grateful for the share. I really appreciate you sharing all this with me.

That that sometimes is enough that the sharing, the openness, the knowing that someone else can relate and someone else cares and acknowledging, you know, maybe the ways that something is really challenging or or tough, you know, you don't you don't need to be, a therapist or, really emotionally savvy to, to simply listen at something.

I see a lot of men doing, you know, or over sports or hunting or fishing, you know, male activities in a way that it's not. It's kind of. I would. Mental health care.

I went yesterday, I went got a haircut. Drew. And my barber said something really, my barber knows I'm a psychiatrist by barber. Said something interesting to me. My barber said, you know, people say men don't have emotions.

They don't have feelings. Look, look at a guy with his favorite sports team loses, right? Look at look at all the emotion there. Look at an athlete when they miss the game winning shot I mean, everyone's crying.

You know men have men have emotions. But there's certain environments where it's more acceptable for men to actually show the emotions that they have.

The other thing that I find is interesting, you know, I'm a psychiatrist, so if I'm at a, a backyard barbecue, for example, and there are people there who know that I'm the psychiatrist, it's like every guy at the barbecue is going to find me at some point.

During that event and start opening up about something, because they know that this is my field. They know I'm a therapist and it's okay for them to talk.

It's like my my, my job gives them permission to open up. So I think that, again, most people are not seeing psychiatrists or therapists in their everyday lives, but I think all of us have a role to play.

Right? And we sort of have to give guys permission to talk, let them know it's okay. And I think the way that we do that is being engaged by asking follow up questions, by really showing them that we care about what they have to say.

But I think a little bit can go a long way. I love that, Greg. And I love that notion that, you know, men, you can see other emotionality in the right context.

Like why white women like sports? Well, you know, I think you're suggesting this because they could be so. Aggressive and channel that kind of male aggression into something.

And then also when it doesn't work out, they can be so sad, upset they can be so emotionally invested in because of the framework of sports, the rules, the role, the position.

You play it somehow it's okay. And seeing ways that you can help create those frameworks where more male emotion can exist between you and the men in your life.

You know, I think that's great. If you're the kind of person who is into mental health, which a lot of people listening are, you probably know that exact, story that Greg's telling.

You don't have to be a therapist or a psychiatrist and identify yourself a little bit in, in your community as somebody who cares about feelings and emotions and mental health.

And it's, you know, I'm sure your your backyard barbecue encounters, these men really appreciate it and come back because they have a nice experience sharing with you.

And I think one thing everyone can do, so take away if you ask someone how they're doing right and they say I'm fine, follow up with this question, how are you really doing right?

I have noticed that just that that follow up question can totally change someone's response. Yeah, yeah, I would if my, my dad would phrase it. So how's the inner man? You're right.

I'm good, I'm good. And I say, all right, well, how's the inner man? You know, it's like, I'm afraid you're holding it together just like you're supposed.

To, man. Right. How are you doing on the inside? Right? Hearing a little more about that, you, Greg Scott Brown, psychiatrist. Yogi. Good friend, person who's out there in the media really making sure that we think about mental health, male mental health, really encouraging us in the self-healing mind to look at these essential five pillars.

Think about them in your own life right now. Everyone and and and you know, not that it's some Herculean task, some big lift, some mountain to climb, but it's simply a few minutes dedicated to something like connection or a little bit of dancing.

Maybe throw in your favorite song and, you know, let it, let it out right now, or going into savasana. And just know, right now or wherever you are, you know, put everything down, get.

On the floor, take a deep breath, let some of Greg Scott Brown's wisdom just wash over you and see the power of your mind, see the power of your ability to care for yourself and get through the various mental health challenges that you know so many of us struggle with.

It's such a treat to be with you. I love being on this mental health journey with you, Greg. You're such a great friend and good brother and mental health, to me, and I'm so glad to get to share with everybody in the, anxiety and depressions, solutions, to let them hear your voice and hear wisdom.

Everybody, thanks so much for your time again. We've got another, great episode coming up right after this, so please stay tuned and we'll see you soon.

Greg, thanks so much. Thank you. Always good to be with you.

Greg Brown

Discover The Power Of Your Self-Healing Mind