She developed chronic hives and it was eight months into it. She was on all the best medications and still getting worse. And she shared with me how miserable she was that it wasn't just itchy.

It was this eight out of 10 maddening itch that she spent half her time just focusing on not scratching because scratching makes it worse. And we didn't think I could do anything for hives, right?

Knees are simple. Hives is this complex autoimmune condition. But she was miserable. And so we worked together drawing from her understanding of the physiology and my understanding of energy.

And we developed healing techniques together. Hi, and welcome to The Balancing Point. I'm Dr. John Needers, and I'm here to make traditional Chinese medicine.

functional medicine, and integrative health simple, practical, and fun, so you can restore balance, boost vitality, and enjoy a healthier life every single day.

Hi, thanks for joining us. This is Dr. John back with another episode of The Balancing Point, and we're also on Doctor Talks. And today's actually going to be a really fun show for me.

Those of you that have watched us know that I'll often talk about the science of functional medicine and then sometimes I'll go into the kind of mysteries of traditional Chinese medicine and also the science supporting it actually.

But today we're going to go out a little further on the edge and do some really fun stuff. My guest today is Mike Santentia. He's the founder of Healing Lab.

He's been practicing healing with a money-back guarantee, which is interesting, right? And I'll tell you from personal experience, it's really the truth.

A, he's very successful as a healer. And the one time I know that he didn't get any success, he wouldn't accept payment. So pretty interesting. Now, Mike's been studying energy healing since 1991, and he's developed a totally new system that is specifically for chronic pain.

That's what he treats. He treats chronic pain. And his second book, the Holistic Chronic Pain Handbook is out now. So congratulations on that. We just got our second book out and that's, you know, it's like delivering a child.

His mission, Mike's mission is to end chronic pain with a modern science of energy healing integrated with mainstream medicine and covered by insurance.

So book your free consultation with Mike as soon as you can. And Mike, let me ask you a few questions. Okay. Please. All right. So how did you go from feeling energy as a kid to founding a practice with a money back guarantee that treats chronic pain?

You know, thanks so much for having me. And I'm just really excited to be here and geek out about science with you. As a kid, quality time with my dad was learning math and chemistry and physics.

So I grew up loving science. And then one of my friends talked about feeling energy from freeze. And I tried it and I felt some tingling. And I went to the ocean, and I tuned into the energy.

And I felt this whole body fission, this tingling everywhere. And I had a bunch of experiences like that. And it got me started exploring energy. And I wanted to share it.

But I didn't because I didn't want to seem weird. And my dad was the kind of atheist who made fun of psychics and religious people. And then in college, I met pagans.

And I started sharing that energy. And I was really awkward talking about it. My approach was different from theirs. I had never talked about it before.

Then in my twenties, I met a woman who had become one of the great loves of my life. And after not sharing about energy for years and being rejected by pagans, and I worked up the courage to tell her about my interest.

And I was expecting rejection, but she shared that as a kid, she had known who was going to call and when relatives would die and had these intuitions.

And we started exploring energy together. I developed my first healing techniques for her. She was a bit older than me and had chronic knee pain. She used to run and had given it up.

And whenever we'd go dance or she'd garden, her knees would ache. And I started adjusting the energy of her knees to look like the energy of my healthy knees.

And her pain would come down. Then the next day she'd garden and her pain would be back and I'd do it again. And after three months, her knees weren't aching anymore.

And she was finally able to start running again for the first time in years. And that got me started really diving into healing. And she encouraged me to share it with people.

And I started doing sessions for friends and teaching some classes and taking some classes on Reiki and therapeutic touch and some other things. And at one point, she went back to school to become a nurse.

And working the night shift and all the exposure to latex and adhesives, she developed chronic hives. And it was eight months into it, she was on all the best medications and still getting worse.

And she shared with me how miserable she was. that it wasn't just itchy, it was this eight out of 10 maddening itch that she spent half her time just focusing on not scratching because scratching makes it worse.

And we didn't think I could do anything for Hives, right? Knees are simple. Hives is this complex autoimmune condition, but she was miserable. And so we worked together drawing from her understanding of the physiology and my understanding of energy.

And we developed healing techniques together. The first one on her skin did nothing. The second one on her nerves brought her itching down from an eight to a four.

After the third one, she never, she woke up the first time in a year without hives. And after the fourth one, she never had another outbreak. And I saw the power of combining the insights of Western medicine with developing healing techniques.

In 2012, we broke up and lost touch as you do. And in 2014, I learned that she had cancer. And I flew out, reconnected with her, became part of the care team.

For six months, I would fly out once a month, take her to appointments, make sure she had food. I developed healing techniques for her. Her pain came down, her insomnia abated.

And then after her second round of chemo, she still had cancer. And she died a few months later. I mourned, but I also started to get a little inspired.

She had always wanted me to share what I do with the world, right? She always believed in it even more than I did. I was seeing the results and she was feeling the results.

And I started to dream of a modern science of energy healing, of collaborating with researchers to really understand how energy healing works and also understand how various illnesses work.

How does the details of pain work? And how can we develop better techniques for them? And I founded Healing Lab shortly after. And one of my things has always been this guarantee, right?

I think that I should only get paid when I actually help someone. So I only want to get paid if it works for you. And I started tracking my results. And it worked from it lasted for a month with a lot of my friends, I guaranteed it for a month.

And I would check in with people each week and make sure it was still working for them. And I discovered something I discovered I was way less good at energy healing than I thought I was.

It was a real blow to my ego. And it was definitely discouraging. And for a while, I thought about just dialing the guarantee back to guaranteed for a week.

But I said, you know, I returned to that dream of a modern science of energy. And I said, the way we get there isn't by dialing it back. The way we get there is by solving the problem.

And so each time someone would have their pain come back early, I would do a free session. I call them touch-up sessions. And I would figure out what went wrong and why did the energy stop working.

And I would fix it. And then I would take those improvements and incorporate them into all my future sessions. And it turns out you do that for 10 years and you get a lot better.

And at this point, after seeing all of those improvements, I'm not discouraged anymore. I know that every time I do a touch-up session, I'm going to learn something.

And at this point, it lasts for the full month for most of my clients and about 25% need a touch-up every week or two. And I learned so much working with them.

And that's part of why I love doing this. Wow. I want to make a comment about your touch-up sessions. So one of the practitioners here in the office. as a sister and the sister had driven cross country several times in a very short period of time, developed sciatica so bad she could barely walk and then got plantar fasciitis on top of that.

So just moving, doing anything was excruciating. So my person on my staff took her sister to CU and one session, you cleared it. And then she moved away.

After about a month, it started coming back and you did another session, a remote session on her and it's gone. It's gone. She has no sciatica, no plantar fasciitis.

And as someone who's treated a lot of plantar fasciitis, that's quite a thing. So I've seen it upfront. So congratulations. Thank you. You know, it's just, I want to throw something in.

So many people, I have a book sitting over on my bookshelf called why woo woo works. Cause so many people go, Oh, that's woo. I mean, acupuncture is now pretty well accepted, but 20 years ago it was like, Oh, that's woo woo stuff.

And. But there's a researcher in Berkeley, her name is Beverly Rubik, brilliant woman, brilliant, and well-funded. And so she built these rooms that are completely isolated, both from light and electromagnetic frequencies.

And she filmed people doing different, basically mudras, different shapes to their hands, and she identified clearly because she's measuring photonic emission.

She's measuring what's coming off of their hand, how they're stimulating the energy and different ways of working with their hands. They had different levels.

Another guy worked for the Atomic Energy Commission and they had a similar thing. And so they took a bunch of meditators in. and put them in a dark room and did really expensive photography on them.

And they found, of course, that the gurus, the yogis, the photonic release from the top of their head was like 10,000 times people that had not practiced those techniques.

So this isn't imaginary, right? There's massive amounts of evidence out there. So anyway, I just wanted to support that. So Mike, tell me what a typical session with you looks like.

So the person, if we're in the office, they come into my office, there are, I made a point of getting an office with no stairs. So people with limited mobility can still get in.

If it's distance, it's going to be online, but we first just check in, talk about how they've been since their last session or since the last time we spoke.

Then I read the energy in person, they lie down on the table and with their permission, I lightly touch the spots that I'm going to be working with. I read the energy, I feel the changes in their energy between, you know, the healthy tissue and the inflamed tissue.

The nerves that have chronic pain have a unique physiology and a unique energy signature. I feel the energy. I talk with them about what I read. I see if that lines up with their expectations, their experience, if they think I missed anything.

Sometimes they have a diagnosis that their doctor never really explained to them. So I do what I can to explain what that means and how that impacts what we're doing.

Then with their permission, with their approval, I tell them what the healing techniques are and they give a thumbs up. And then I apply the healing energy.

And it the results happen in about a minute. So I lightly touch, I apply the healing energy, and I say, great, let's test it out. And like if they have knee pain, I have them get up and walk around or do some squats, see how it feels.

See if I missed a spot. Having that instant verification is so important, both for demonstrating that this really works to people, and also for making what I do more reliable, right?

Sometimes I miss a spot. Sometimes It worked halfway, but not as well as usual. And that lets me go back and figure out what went wrong and fix it and get it really working for them in the session.

If it's a distance session, I do the same thing with all that, but the difference is I can't touch them. So I use these healing cards. I tested out a bunch of different approaches to distance healing when the pandemic hit.

And what I found is that most of them don't work that great. If you just meditate on the person's picture, it's not that reliable, at least in my experience.

What I found works great is I put some energy into a card, I mail it to the person, and then when they have the session, they touch the card to whatever spot I'm working with.

And my energy is in the card, so I can use that to bridge a connection to their body. And it works just as well as in person. I routinely have people switch from in person to distance after they try it.

And it's still strange to me sometimes that the laws of physics allow for this to work, but people's pain keeps coming down. So I keep believing in it.

So if it's distance, that's what we do. That's awesome. Thank you. And so again, you talked about your results and it sounds like you're, you track things.

You're really a scientist at heart, right? Yeah. Just using some, I'm going to call them advanced techniques, although they're ancient, you know, go read the Bible, go read Taoist healing arts, et cetera.

And these are ancient arts. And, but someday, someday this will be the healing medium in that people are using something like this. One of the things that was fascinating, I always love to hear how healers describe their process.

So you've met Catherine, who works with me. Catherine is a music major. She was a professional musician. And so my background is in Qigong, right? And energy work.

And so when I touch people's pulses or when I'm feeling energy flow in their legs, and I'm feeling probably something slightly differently, but I'm feeling that.

And it's kind of… informed by my background. Well, Katherine would always use this term. She said, I'm going to go give someone a tune up. And it's like, yeah, okay, that's cool.

And then I finally, she told me she actually feels the pulses like musical instruments. And she literally will take their pulse and then tune the patient and then take their pulse again to make sure she got the tuning right.

That's so cool. Yeah, it is. And I just love how people that discover, you know, and uncover these realities, these truths, how they function in the world, right?

Because it's a little different for most people. And so the conditions, so you mentioned, I didn't know that you treated hives or things. I was just looking at chronic pain.

What kind of conditions do you treat? So first, treat is a special word for doctors. But what I work with is, so primarily, I work with chronic bodily pain.

So that's, you know, things like arthritis, frozen shoulder back pain, fibromyalgia, things like that. I also work with on neuropathy, like sciatica. So that's that burning or electrical shooting pain that people sometimes have.

I also have had some great results with hives. So with ordinary pain, arthritis, frozen shoulder, things like that, I'm getting like an 80 to 90% success rate from folks.

That's what I work with the most. It's also the most straightforward with neuropathy. I'm getting about a 60 to 70% success rate. So that's great. So thank you.

It's a little less reliable, but it's still way over half. And that is one of my focuses coming up with hives. I'm getting about a 50% success rate. And so I routinely see people with hives and It is way more complicated and gradually improving the results.

But yeah, if somebody listening has hives, please reach out, I would love to help. And if it doesn't work for you, it's free. And that's part of just how how I work.

Yeah, really utilizing the Hippocratic oath, first do no harm, right? And that's what I tell people that come to see us, you know, you'll get better, probably, but even if you don't, you won't get worse, right?

And so that's really beautiful. I want to say one thing about itching. When I was president of the Oakland Acupuncture School, Academy of Chinese Culture a few years ago, a woman came in to talk to me.

She was thinking about going to acupuncture school. And so I said, so, you know, what have you been doing? She said, I just got my PhD and I don't remember the exact title of it, but essentially it was physiology.

And I said, oh, what were you studying? She said, itching. I said, really? I said, so we run into itching stuff all the time. What did you discover? And she said, I discovered that we don't know much.

So Mike, how did you create this system and kind of what's the background of it? Wow. So I do a lot of podcasts and that is a question that I have not gotten before.

So I don't have a canned answer. So the way that I created this is step one is just take the, you know, when I was working with friends is look at the energy of whatever, wherever they're hurting and adjust it to look like the similar tissue that's not hurting, right?

Living tissue produces energy or chi, healthy cells produce healthy chi and inflamed cells produce inflamed chi. So I adjust the inflamed tissue to look like the healthy tissue.

Step two is dialing into individual tissue. So rather than like the knee as a whole, what's going on with the nerves? What's going on with the cartilage?

What's going on with the bursa? And with the nerves, when nerves signal pain over and over, they learn to signal pain better and better. That's what chronic pain is.

It has a unique physiology and a unique energy signature. And so I spent a few years developing better and better ways of counteracting that energy signature.

To counteract an energy signature, if you imagine just really with noise canceling headphones, right? They play the exact opposite sound wave and the sound wave cancels out.

So when I'm doing energy healing, I'm applying a healing energy that cancels out the chronic pain energy or that cancels out the inflammation energy so that the nerve looks like the energy of regular non-chronic pain.

And over several years worked at steadily going deeper into the energy body at making the energy stronger. So it cancels it out more completely a bunch of improvements.

Then last year I had a client, she had a knee replacement and like about 10% of people after the knee replacement, her knees still hurt. And I did my energy on her nerves and her, her sharp pain came way down.

She stopped having sharp pain. It was great. But she still had dull pain and it just wasn't going away. And she loved to go square dancing and she couldn't dance nearly as much as she wanted to.

And it was just painful whenever she would dance. And I spent some extra time reading the full energy signature of her nerves, right? Not just the part related to chronic pain, but all of it, looking for any other parts of her energy signature that were elevated.

And I found a part, and it changed fairly rapidly. Like every, you know, 10, 15 minutes, the energy signature would change. And when she had more pain, that energy was elevated.

When she had less pain, that energy was less. And I developed a way to counteract that energy and have the healing energy adjust with her energy. This turns out to be very important.

So the healing energy is canceling out her current energy. And when her current energy changes, the healing energy needs to change with it to continue canceling it out.

And so that was my focus for last year was developing this energy, which has gotten me great results, not just for her, but for clients and friends who have acute pain where it hasn't lasted long enough to become chronic.

I used to not have anything for acute pain, but after working with this now, even folks who've had pain for just a few days, it's coming down and it's getting better results for all of my clients.

So I realized I didn't very cleanly answer your question of how do I develop healing techniques. Yeah. Well, that's even more fun where you went. I love the analogy of the noise canceling headphones.

That's just, that's brilliant. I, right. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And that you came up with this is just fabulous. And you know, there are other techniques that people do that sometimes work, sometimes don't.

And I think a lot of what you're doing consciously They're sometimes successful other than consciously, right? You just have brought your full and complete attention and intention to this process.

And that's what makes it work. I mean, you're, you're, you're right there with it. One of the keys that I find is. If I'm focusing on intent or visualization or something like that, I'm relying on my unconscious to know how to enact that attempt.

Whereas if I can make all of the steps conscious, I can then reason about what's going on, reason about what went wrong that made healing technique not work or fade early.

And what changes to how I move energy would fix that. And it lets me engineer solutions. in a way that I couldn't if I was relying on intent and leaving it unconscious.

Excellent. And so with your background in science, and that was really trippy about you and your dad. I just love that. What a great, so my dad, I learned to water level a house when I was like 10, because he worked on houses, right?

And I can do all kinds of electrical stuff by the time I was 12 or so, but you had a fun, fun upbringing, it sounds like. So again, because of your background and interest in science, what are you seeing in terms of anything published or anything that you see that you think is relevant?

So there's actually been a tremendous amount of research in the last 50 years and especially in the last 20 or so. When I was first starting healing lab, I felt a lot of doubt actually, right?

I had to ask myself, you know, okay, I've been getting these results for friends. How confident am I that those results are from energy and not from placebo, right?

What's more likely that my friends were getting placebo or that I've discovered something missing from today's physics? And I talked with some researchers.

I remember Melinda Connor. She's this wonderful researcher, really encouraging. And she asked me what research I'd got, and she encouraged me to go out and meet her.

And I was only expecting some, you know, case studies, but I was blown away. There were cell culture studies. Beverly Rubik, who you mentioned, did one of my favorites.

She took E. coli and heat shocked it. You heat it up until it's almost dead. And then the E. coli that got energy healing recovered. The E. coli that didn't died.

And the point is not to have really healthy E. coli. The point is that bacteria don't believe anything. Bacteria don't know what you're doing to them.

And so bacteria don't have placebo. If it works on bacteria, it's a real thing out there in the world. I found plant and animal studies. Anton Giveri took human, and Giveri was cells in a petri dish.

For animal studies, agloria granoids took mice with cancer. The ones that got energy healing, the cancer didn't metastasize nearly as much. They still had cancer, but at a lower rate of metastasis.

Mice don't know what you're doing. They don't believe in energy healing. I found placebo-controlled trials. Andrea Gordon took people with knee arthritis, gave them energy healing.

Their pain came down really significantly on par with painkillers. Durfalu did similar research. Again, pain came down similar to painkillers. With her, they did several times a week for six weeks.

And after they were done, the reduction in pain continued to last for the next three weeks, even without additional treatment. So I found all of this research, not just human trials, but plant, animal, cell culture studies, I was blown away.

I spent some time thinking about how do you conceptualize this? Right? Is it just a bunch of data points that you stick in a pot and decide to believe?

Or I wound up as saying, you know, when we ask, does this pill work? Well, we know what chemistry is. We know that chemicals interact with the body. We have a lot of experience with pills having a good effect on health.

And so the real question is, does this specific pill work for my specific condition? Whereas with energy healing, there's no consensus that she is real.

We don't have general experience with it interacting with cells. We don't know that it promotes health and healing. And so we need to start at the very beginning.

And I discovered that's what the research does, right? Cell culture studies show that it works and it interacts with cells. Plant and animal studies show that it interacts with multicellular organisms and promotes health.

And then we get to the human studies and it shows that it helps people. And that building up of confidence is what let me start my practice. That's awesome.

You know, that reminds me of an anti-thing, which was, they did studies at the University of Padua a few years ago, and they took cultures of blood, and not cultures, but blood, and they watched the white cell activity.

And the white cells were very active. I mean, they're looking around for something to eat. And so then they gave the patients antibiotics, The next day, they watched the blood again and the white cells wouldn't do anything.

They just like went to sleep. And so it's kind of the opposite, right? With the energy healing, they get active. Everything gets revved up. And with the antibiotics, now they may work for what you're trying to kill, but they really reduce the capacity of the immune system.

So, fascinating, right? That's so interesting. Neat. Yeah. What do you think would have to happen? Now here's a big question, right? And I hope you have an answer and that you can make it real.

So what do you think would need to happen for energy healing to become part of mainstream medicine? This is one of my favorite topics, and it's actually the subject of the book that I'm working on right now, Transforming Pain.

So there is a tremendous amount of skepticism around energy healing. And the first thing that I think we as practitioners need to acknowledge is there's a very good reason for it, right?

There's no mechanism of action for energy healing in today's physics or chemistry or biology. That's a high bar to pass. And so I hear practitioners sometimes feeling frustrated about the skepticism.

And it's not the scientists are close minded. It's that it really is something extraordinary to claim. And we have to rise to the occasion. And here's how we do it.

First, we need research to replicate. Now, that largely exists. What we need to do as practitioners is take a handful of studies and really nail it down so we can do it 100% of the time, really reliably, and make the results as obvious and fast as possible.

The best research is research where you don't need to run a bunch of statistics to know that it worked. So that's one is really nail down the research to replicate.

Two is for better or worse, we live in capitalism and you need money in order to do this stuff. And the reason there's so much money in farmer research is because we have these companies that pump money into it.

And we need an industry partner to fund and drive the energy healing research. From 2002 until 2008, there was a million dollars a year in NIH funding for energy healing research.

And so a lot of the research that I cite is from that time period. And then starting in 2008, that funding basically dried up. And now it's just a few nonprofits like Healing Touch Professionals Association funds and research, Emerald Gate, which funds some research.

But it's a lot smaller. We need an industry partner who are a business that will benefit by funding this research to do it. When I talk with Durfal Lu, the researcher who did the arthritis research, she did it on, I think it was 20K.

It was a shoestring budget for research. We don't need a ton of money, but we need an industry partner. And that's what Healing Lab is trying to grow into, is to become that industry partner, fund and drive it, and also provide practitioners who know how to do, how to replicate the research every time.

Three, we need a demo. People who work with energy feel energy and people who don't don't and that's not great for our credibility. And we need a way to fix that.

And that's actually one of my back burner projects. So I have these healing techniques that when I do it to nerves, people's pain drops in about a minute.

That's fast enough to do a demo. It's a matter of modifying the techniques rather than decreasing pain. It increases some benign sensation like heat or tingling.

so that skeptics can feel it for themselves and become curious. And then we go to universities, we demo it, we talk them through the research, we show them some research to replicate and offer to work with them to replicate it.

And that's how we get folks on board with this. Awesome. Sounds like you've thought about this a little bit. Just a few times. Yeah. Right. Different type of question.

So it took you basically until now, your entire life to develop these techniques and to be this successful. And I suspect you'll continue to be ever more successful because you keep working at it.

Do you think it's possible for, could you teach this to somebody? I have. So I'm going to get a little bit more woo with you. Okay, I know that you're on board for us.

Alright, so every system of energy healing has the concept of an energy source that they channel. Some people call it the universe. That doesn't mean they're channeling energy from Neptune.

That's their term for their energy source. Other terms are a matrix or an egregore. Young's collective unconscious was pointing to this phenomenon. The term that I use a lot of what I do is to program new techniques into the energy source that I work with.

So the term that I use is ethereal software. And so there's two versions of doing energy healing. One, what I spend most of my time doing is figuring out what motions of energy will produce the desired result.

doing them myself to make sure they work, and then programming them into my energy source, the ethereal software, so that it can do them for me and do them continuously over the course of the month, so that the person's energy, the healing energy stays current and strong.

And that's how I get a month of results. The research shows shows us that most energy healing lasts for a day or two. So if you want it to last for a month, you need to have this continuous stream from the healing source.

So I think that a small number of people are going to be able to develop new healing techniques and program them into ethereal software in the same way that a small number of artists are going to innovate a new way of painting, right?

But then pretty much everyone can learn to access an energy source and channel the healing energy where it needs to go. And so I've taught people how to do that.

I have an afternoon workshop where I teach them the basics. And they start working with inflammation. I have a year-long program where it's one weekend a month where folks learn to work with chronic inflammation.

They learn to target the energy more precisely. So yeah, this is absolutely something that we can scale up. And part of becoming that industry partner is doing that scaling.

You know, 15 people, 10 practitioners, a marketer, a manager at 15 people can pair everyone well, turn a profit and put a quarter million a year into the research, which is enough to move the needle.

Well, I had, I did not know you were doing that much teaching. That's great. If someone were interested in studying with you, would they go to your, just to your website and check it out?

Or is there a better way? Go to my website, drop me a line right now. So what I realized when the pandemic hit and we all kind of took a breath and paused for a minute, what I realized is that My real job was to get, was to grow the healing practice, figure out how to market to more people, how to reach people with pain and get them coming in.

And that the focus I was doing on teaching was actually a way of feeling productive while distracting myself from that harder problem. And so I've paused my classes for now while I'm focusing on growing individual practice.

And then in the future, once I've grown to the point where I need to bring other practitioners in to manage the client load, then I'm going to start teaching again.

So if you want to take classes from me, please reach out. I have a mailing list of folks who want to take classes. And when I'm starting them up again, I will drop you a line.

And we'll have your email in our, you know, posted here, but I understand that it's healinglab.org. Is that right? Healinglab.org. And so is that where people would go to set appointments with you?

Yeah, so if you're interested in working with me, if you have chronic pain, and you've tried everything and nothing has worked or nothing has worked well enough, or you're taking meds to manage the pain and you're getting a ton of side effects and their take as needed and you wish you needed them less.

go to healinglab.org. There's a button to book a free consult and talk with me, ask me all your questions. I'll explain how the guarantee works and we'll get you in.

You know, I tell people, sometimes people ask me like, man, I've tried everything. Nothing has worked. How do you know that yours is going to work? And I always tell them, I don't know.

You know, I hate when people over promise to me. I try hard not to over promise to anyone else. I don't know that this is going to work. We're getting about 80 to 90% success rate, but it's possible that you are in the unlucky 10 to 20%. What I do know is that you're amazing for keeping going and keeping trying different things until you find something that works.

And this one, you only pay if it works. There's not even an upfront payment. So let's give it a try. Let's see if it helps. Mike, I love it. I like your, I mean, I really love your system.

I've seen it work. I love the way you go into it with, um, it either works and you pay or it doesn't work and vibe. Let's love each other, but I can't help you.

So I'm an encourage people to seek you out at healing lab.com. Um, dot org. I mean, dot org, dot org. I'm sorry. Uh, anything else you want to, uh, leave us with today?

Um, we've gotten a lot out of you. Yeah, I think this is some of the most important research of our lifetime. Every few generations, humanity encounters a phenomenon that's missing from the science of the day.

A hundred years ago, that was quantum physics. Everyone knows about the bizarre behavior of photons. What people don't realize is quantum physics is what gave us transistors, which are the building blocks of computers and phones and the internet.

And those are pretty good. 100 years before that, when alchemy was a science, people thought that combustion, the firework, because wood contained phlogiston, and the flames were the phlogiston leaving the wood.

And that's why wood weighs less when you burn it, because the phlogiston left. Now, most people have never heard of phlogiston, because you know, it doesn't exist.

But that's what they thought at the time. And Anton Loisier started weighing different materials as they burned. And he discovered that magnesium weighs more when it burns.

Well, how does that happen if the phlogiston left? You and I, of course, know what happened is magnesium oxide is a solid. Some of the magnesium has picked up oxygen atoms and now it weighs more.

But half those words didn't exist then. In fact, that research is where Loisier coined the word oxygen. And it's widely regarded as the dawn of chemistry.

Chemistry is pretty good. Hundred years before that, when people thought diseases were caused by demons and bad air. Malaria literally means bad air. breakthroughs in glassmaking led to the first lenses.

And Anthony von Leeuwenhoek, he was a weaver. He bought some lenses to do quality control in his thread and make better cloth. And then he looked at blood and saliva and swamp water.

And he was the first human to see single cell organisms. He called them animal cules, like animal molecules smoshed together. And it was a long path that led to the germ theory of disease and modern medicine.

And antibiotics and vaccines are pretty good, too. So every few generations, we encounter some anomaly, something that shouldn't be there. And then when we come to understand it, it creates the modern world.

This generation's anomaly is energy healing. There's no mechanism of action in today's physics or chemistry or biology, but it's helping people in the real world.

It's producing results in the labs. And when we understand it, it'll lead to the next century of technology and breakthroughs in the physical sciences.

And that's why I do what I do. Awesome. It's been so nice to have some time with you. You know, we've talked a few times, but 90% of this is new to me, you know, in terms of what, not so much what you do, but all the things behind it and what you're looking to create in the world.

And I truly, truly admire that. So I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing this with us today. This will save, this, this will change some lives.

Okay. And so I really, really appreciate you coming on. So thank you so much for having me. Thanks everyone for listening. Healinglab.org for your free consultation and just love being able to spread the word.

Awesome. You take care. Bye bye. You as well. Thank you for joining me on The Balancing Point. If you enjoyed today's episode, please follow the show, share it with a friend and leave a review.

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