Breathe to Relieve Pain

Introduction to Jane Hogan and Breathwork 0:00

Hi. Welcome. I'm doctor Roger murphree at. I'm the host of freedom from fibromyalgia summit. And I've got Jane Hogan here. She is the wellness engineer. Let me tell you a little bit about her background. It's quite interesting. She blends science and spirituality to help people release chronic pain using mind, body and breathwork so that they can become empowered creators of their own health. She's had her own personal health journey. That letter from and being in the business world as an engineer and then now is a functional medicine practitioner and, really some interesting stuff that she has developed in her in her training or what she's done with her, with her new career.

I, she's, I guess, just to say so. Jane, thank you so much for being here. Look, for when we're talking about breathwork and emotions associated with fibromyalgia. So, thank you so much for being part of the summit. Roger, thank you so much for having me. This is, you know, my passion and purpose. Now. And I love every opportunity to talk with people to help empower them in their health. Well, we're going to talk about breathwork. So people hear about, you know, proper breathing. And a lot of times people just kind of roll their eyes and they think, oh, I know how to breathe.

You know, what's what's the big deal about it? But it's quite a big deal, isn't it? I mean, not the way we breathe or can affect our health, how we feel, our emotions. I mean, there's a lot to it, right? There's so much with with breathwork. And you're right, most people just think it's so simple that it can't be that powerful. But part of my engineering background, like it's funny how it applies sometimes with health, but well, a lot of times actually. But in engineering, the simplest solution was often the best solution.

And I feel I felt like, you know, how how can we even start with people who are in pain, like they just don't even know where to start. So I believe starting with the breath will help everything else that they're doing work better on it because it it impacts every aspect of our health. Well, I have been, meditating for well over a decade, I guess two decades, maybe longer than that. So I know the power of breath. However, you were on my long summer, not too long ago, and you shared some things that I thought, wow.

That was new to me. And and these techniques that, you know, you're going to share today. We're talk a bit of that today is something that that you can use right away. That's why I love it so much. Is that just by changing the way you're breathing, you can you can calm your emotions, calm your mind. You can, you can reduce your pain. So these are some techniques that we're going to talk about now, today. Well, tell me, how is breath? How does it connect to the mind, the body, that spirit. I mean, what's the connection of breathing and all these different layers, of health?

I'll start with, with spirit, because that's probably the one that people are like, what? Breath? Spirit. But, you know, you think about it. We're breathing from the time we are born until our last breath. And if you've ever been around anyone, at the time of their passing and you've heard them take their last breath and, you know, after that, they're just not no longer there. So breath is, I believe, spirit in the body. And it's our that spiritual energy in the body. And so this breath really like animates, animates this physical form.

How Breath Connects Mind, Body, and Spirit 3:43

And so it's, it wouldn't be, you know, it's not alive when the breath isn't there. So, you totally connected to spirit. Obviously it's connected to our body because, you know, we need the breath to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide to go all throughout the body and nourish every single cell in our body so that all of our cells can function in all of our systems and organs, can function. So, you know, there's that it's very physical. And then, with the mind, well, you know, you mentioned meditation, right?

So we can use the breath, to, to calm our mind, to calm our thoughts, to still the mind. And so it's, it's it just connects all three. It's like, it's like, this super charged, tool that we've got that that's really pulling together every single part of us. And the thing you mentioned there about, meditation is interesting. We know there's so much science behind meditation how good it is, but a lot of people are like, I can't meditate, but they can breathe. And so if all they can do is just focus on the breath, the sound of the breath, the feeling of the breath, then that is meditation.

Like that stilling their mind. That's ultimately what we want to have is that create that little bit of gap between ruminating over the past and worrying about the future. Yeah. And I think, you know, so breathing as a tool was a mechanism for calming the body down. You know, what we see with fibromyalgia is they have an overstimulated nervous system. So part of the nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system, which is give us our flight and flight and mental clarity and, you know, being able to be active certainly important.

But if you can never turn that off, if it's always turned on, then what you see is stress becomes magnified. You just can't deal with it. You just get so overwhelmed and breathing, just focusing on your breathing. And you know, I think people get intimidated by meditate. You know, you're talking about meditation. It doesn't have to be anything complicated. I mean, I share with my patients is just concentrate on your breathing. Just focus on that for, you know, 30s 60s and just that will calm everything down.

Can you share a little bit how changing your breathing affects the physiology of your body as far as the the nervous system, the vagus nerve and some of these other things that, that, that we discussed, I think, on the sermon, I think. Yeah. I mean it is the fastest way to to, to regulate that nervous system. So to switch out of the sympathetic, which is, you know, the stress state into the parasympathetic, which is that rest digest, which should be our normal state, but unfortunately not normal for most people.

And, and especially people with, fibromyalgia. So, so when we can, when we can slow down our breath. So first of all, just breathing through the nose, we will get more oxygen. Right? So that's one thing most a lot of people are mouth breathers. And I think we talked about this on the summit as well. But yeah, breathing through the nose can help, increase the amount of oxygen, you know, so that you're breathing efficiently. And, and then also, if we're breathing slowly, then we are calming that nervous system.

If you think about, you know, if you were in a fight or flight, like, got a run for your life, you're going to breathe really quickly, like that's the body is set up for that because you've got to run right. You got to be prepared to run or fight. So breathing slowly can really help, help it, calm down, but also breathing deep like belly breathing. So breathing into the we say into the belly. But really it's breathing into the lower part of the lungs and the diaphragm moves down so it feels like our belly pushes out.

This is why we call it belly breathing, but it's really breathing into the lower part of the lungs and the lower part of the lungs just have more lung tissue. And so when we breathe deeply, then we can get again more. There's more air. It's gonna be more efficient. And that's going to get into our body. Better. So, and also when we can really especially extended exhales, because a lot of people, we're just breathing too quickly and not really like focusing on an exhale. When we can do that, we, we create a better balance between oxygen and carbon dioxide in the body.

We need a good balance in order for the cells to actually get the oxygen that they need. So, so physiologically, there's a lot going on. And we were we were designed really to breathe through our nose. We were designed to breathe slowly and deeply and, and not be in this fear state all the time. So this correct breathing. That's that's what I now call now the correct breathing. Not very scientific, but it really can make a profound difference in how you feel. And the studies are pretty clear that it can affect, certainly your moods, your energy, it can affect your pain levels.

You know, it's so many things, your stress levels, just by changing your breathing. Can you show us? You know, I think the first thing is being aware of that. So and so embracing that going, oh, okay, there's something to this breathing and it gives you an opportunity. Then when you get in a stressful situation now to kind of step back from that and, and do some breathing techniques, do some exercises to allow you to calm yourself down. So when you're we're talking about, first of all, first thing is definitely breathing to the nose. Yeah.

And then the second thing we want to focus on is when we take a breath in through the nose, what we should feel are sense. And we can actually just put your hand on your stomach. You should see that your belly should come out. Yeah. As you just as you just share. So many people are giving shallow breathing that you they never feel their belly move. So they're breathing from up here. And that creates a lot of stress in the body, creates a lot of tension in the body. And and one of the things that, is so common with fibromyalgia, we'll go into more detail, is about a lot of the emotions attached to fibromyalgia that have developed over the years that have probably set up this some of these bad habits with their breathing.

Right. Now, you shared, you shared an exercise with me. I think, I think it was, you know, that how you can tell if you're breathing correctly. And was that you that did share with me about holding your nose and seeing how long you can go. Yeah, yeah, let's do that again. Can you share that? And then let's talk a little bit about fibromyalgia and emotions.

Breathing Techniques and the Body Oxygen Level Test 10:50

Yeah. So there's a you probably know about this is a, you know, ideal, oxygen amount in our blood that, you know, we should have for healthy, a healthy body, healthy, healthy cells. And, you can get, like, a blood oximeter. You know, put it on your finger and measure it, and, you know, get an idea that way. But you can also get an idea by noticing, how when, when you need, get a desire to breathe. So you said, well, I'll explain it first, and then we can do it. Yeah. Okay. So the way we do this is to kind of, we just take a normal breath in through the nose.

Let out a normal breath through the nose, and then we plug the nose. And not doing it yet though. Yeah. Because I want to stress that what we're doing is we're we're not seeing how long we can hold our breath. We are seeing how long until our first desire for air. Okay. So, so I'm going to add count and then you can do this. Okay. So we don't want it's not like a big gulp in a normal breath. Just normal. Normal breath in, normal breath out. Plug the nose and count. I'm going to count until. So pay attention to where you are when you get the first desire for breath, okay?

Not how long you can hold your breath. Yeah. All right, let's go. So normal breath in. Normal breath out. Plug the nose. One 1000 to 1003 1004 1005 1006 1000 1000. Me. Five. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. I'll just stop there. So you got to about 20. Is that right now? 20. Now, when I first did that, we did that exercise. I think I was maybe at 12 or 13. And I really felt, wow, that doesn't seem right for me after. Yeah. But it's becoming aware. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. That, that, that whole exercise there I think is very revealing.

You can't. So this is called the Boult test, the body oxygen level test. And so you can just do this on your own. And maybe the first time the audience tries it, it might be like, I didn't do right. It's okay. You know, just practice it. It's better to do it first thing in the morning when you're feeling more relaxed, rather than at the end of the day when you might be feeling a little bit more stressed and just kind of do it. And, so you get an idea where you are and, so basically anything less than 20 you are breathing, you don't have, know, you're not getting enough oxygen.

Yeah, basically in the blood. So that's probably very revealing because I that a lot of the people watching this were probably down around ten, you know, or lower. So, you know, don't get worried. I don't want you to get stressed or anything. I just want you to. Okay. Now you're aware of it. So we just need to teach our body that it can go a little bit longer. So start practicing. And I don't know how you you did it, but you can. Maybe you can let us know. Start practicing as you're walking or going about your day, maybe while watching television or whatever.

Just try practicing holding your breath a little bit longer. So not until you need to gas, but until you can, just kind of take a breath in and not gulp and then resume normal breathing immediately so you don't want to be holding it so long that you got to take a bunch of breaths. So you're just going to teach your body. It's just like going, you know, not even as much food as, you know, a lot of us eat way beyond our, our, our, metabolic needs. So, you know, you can cut back a little bit, right?

So you just got to teach your body, you're not really hungry. You can hold off for a little bit longer. So how did how did you improve yours? I'm curious. So, you know, after we did that, we did that interview. I really just realized that. Wow. I'm just not even paying attention to that. I mean, I know what it's supposed to look like. I mean, I know these things, and I just. Throughout the day, we'll periodically just see where I'm at. And what I've noticed is the more stress I'm under, the tighter I am, the harder it is to really, you know, get to hold that breath and not even hold that breath, but just to be comfortable with, I don't need to inhale.

I, you know, I'm comfortable right here, right now, but, you know, it's it's something that I've been working on for months now. Yeah, well, that's really good. And, you know, you can improve it pretty quickly. I was doing a bit of walking, so I would do this when I was walking. I walk along and, you know, even plug my nose sometimes just so I wouldn't, you know, accidentally take breath in and you can improve it pretty quickly with, you know, with awareness. It really just takes awareness. But the reason why this is so important is we we need the right balance.

As I mentioned, of oxygen and carbon dioxide, if we're taking in too much oxygen, we it's actually not even getting to the cells because you actually need the carbon dioxide as well. It's like, it's like the carbon dioxide is needed, like as a shuttle to get the to get the oxygen into the cells. So if there's, if you're breathing a whole lot and got too much oxygen, it's not going to get to the cells anyway. And may some people may have like, tingling hands and feet might, might be a sign of that or cold hands and feet.

It's just like the extremities are of course, sacrifice. Right. For the for the core. And so that could be a sign, I mean, a sign of other things as well, but that could be a sign. But just to give that that little bolt test a try and see how you do. Yeah, I definitely would encourage people to do that exercise and see where you're at and start working on that, see if you can improve. That is and as Jane is, just share with us, you can improve that. I mean, you know, don't get upset if you, you know, if you're at an eight.

And that's not unusual, by the way, with some of the patients that I work with, they're really low. And part of that has to do with just all the stress that has built up over the years and is not being dealt with. And, and we know from, surveys that the majority of those who fibromyalgia have had a traumatic childhood, or certainly a large number of folks of fibromyalgia have had a traumatic childhood. We're under a lot of stress as a as a, as a child or an adolescent, came from a toxic household, whether there was, you know, physical abuse, mental abuse, an illness or just, you know, a divorce, something that was pretty traumatic growing up that caused them to lose their plasticity, their ability to rebound from stress, and that that then starts to show up as, physical ailments.

And so one of the things that I really try to share with my patients is when you're feeling this, this, this stress, and you feel anxious, take a moment to recognize that and take these deep breaths and just focus on your breathing and to kind of step back from all this stress and tension that you're feeling and, and realize that by changing your breathing, you can release a lot of that tension. And you know, it, I believe that illness and pain, it's really energy not moving in the body like we, you know, science tells us we're energetic beings.

Like, there's really no argument, even though people like what we're made of. Energy. It seems weird. But, you know, when it when energy is flowing, all is working. Well, when energy isn't flowing, we get signs of it in our physical body. And so we want to get energy flowing. So I would I would suggest to your audience that, if when they feel stressed, when they're noticing that there's something going on, notice where they're feeling it in the body because their body, the body doesn't lie. Right. It's it's showing us.

So notice where you're feeling in the body. Like, for me, I'm always touching my soul or plexus area because that's where I was holding a lot of a lot of tension.

Fibromyalgia, Stress, and Emotional Patterns 19:30

Even now as I'm talking, I can feel that area getting a little tight. So I got it. Okay. All right. So notice where you're feeling it. And a mat. Take the breath. The beautiful thing about the breath is it like it does represent energy in the body. And you can use your imagination, this beautiful brain that we've got to help us visualize the breath going in a particular area and then that can help, energize it because, you know, energy goes where our attention or where our attention goes, energy flows.

So it's going to drive energy there and help, like relieve some of that tension. So we were talking prior to the recording this, and we're just sharing a little bit about fibromyalgia. And I've got over 20 years, experience specializing in fibromyalgia. You, you've got some experience with some of the clients that you've worked with. And we were talking about this emotional this, this common, emotional makeup of those with fibromyalgia. There are some, some common, common emotions that we see with fibromyalgia.

One of those big ones is, is hopelessness. Just makes me feel sad. It does, doesn't it? But, you know, you if you get, you know, you have a diagnosis that that most people don't understand, some doctors still don't even recognize is real. Family members sometimes can treat you like a hypochondriac or, you know, make you feel like it's all in your head and you're being told you just have to learn to live with it, you know? But nobody wants to learn to live with chronic pain and fatigue and insomnia and brain fog and irritable bowel and all the things that can come underneath the heading of fibromyalgia, there's no wonder they feel a little bit hopeless.

Right? Oh my goodness. Absolutely. So, you know, they probably had a background that's created stress and then created this. You know, all of this pain in the body. And then they've got compounding with that. They've probably spent years getting a diagnosis if they even got a diagnosis. And then not being understood because nobody sees it. Right. So there's a there's a lot to feel. I can understand why people feel hopeless, but you and I are here to give people hope, right? Yeah. And that it doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah. Doctor Isaac Elias, who wrote a book called The Survival Paradox. Not sure if you've ever read that book. I've ever heard about that. But fascinating paradigm, theory. And it's all about the body will do everything it can for in a survival mode. And anytime were subjected to any type of stressor, whether that's a thought or a virus or a bacteria or a, a toxin or pollutants or anything that is foreign to the body, to the body feels threatened. It can go into this survival mode. And once it does, it's hard to turn that that off.

And when we're in this survival mode, we're releasing inflammatory chemicals. One of those is called the lact and three, which gets turned. It's necessary for survival. But if you never turn it off, it's kind of like an autoimmune disease. The immune system just is over ramped. And because of that, you're getting the same effects of the body being in this this survival mode. The quickest way to turn that off is changing your breathing areas. Yeah. And that so it was funny because I was talking to Jane.

We're talking about all this, the survival paradox. And to me it was a game changer. And he's he's actually in this on the summit as well. But it was a game changer because it explained to me why. So many the patients that I work with, fibromyalgia, I'm able to change their blood more, clean it all up if they have inflammatory markers. The things that we look for CRP said right, and a get them to be able to overcome their fibro. And that means different things to different people. But you know, they actually have a life again.

And I don't hear form from them for a few years. And then all of a sudden, you know, I get this email of desperation, hey, Doctor Murphy, it's been a while, but I'm back in a flare and I can't get out of it. It's been months, and typically what brings that on is some type of stress. It could be a toxin to my own. There's different things that can create this long. However, Covid isn't when I'm, you know, working with some of my patients right now, but the quickest. So what? I'm talking here to upstate.

I was, to Doctor Elias. I was saying, well, what what can they do? And I'm think he's going to share. Well, you want to take this supplement, you want to do this now? That is what he said. He said you need to just allow yourself the the the space to to not be under that stress. You need to take a step back, recognize it and do simple techniques like what we're talking about breathing, meditating, affirming affirmations, reading positive literature. Whatever it is, it gives your body, your spirit permission to to to realize that you're not under attack.

Everything's going to be okay. And I thought that was just to me, that whole the survival paradox is such a game changer for me personally, because it allows me to realize I can do everything right for my patients. But if I don't educate them on how to take the steps to de-stress them, their lives, or at least to be able to recognize they're under stress and then take steps to to get out of that situation through breathing and other things. I've done them a disservice, you know, because their blood work looks good.

You know, they've been doing well. But I said, something comes along and they can't handle that stressor. So, this is something that you see with your clients as well, just this, this emotional baggage that people build up, right? Yeah, yeah. And I see it. So I've got a membership program, and most of the people, most of the people in it have pain, inflammation and so on. And I teach yoga now and I think everyone has to do yoga, but that's what I do. The yoga breathwork I call it defense physiology.

So we built up defense physiology in our body. And and what I, what I love about yoga practice is, is that we if we can just relax into it, we can tell the body, tell the brain, really it's okay. It's safe to let go. It's safe. You don't have to hang on so tight and can let it go. And then when things are letting go, you know, we can get that energy flowing again. Like her spirit flowing again in this body, expressing the way it's supposed to. Because our ourselves, you know, we're we're a vibration.

We respond to vibrations and so we're getting back to the emotions as well. You know, the other side of emotions is that they are vibrations in the body. I mean, we know that, you know, feeling love is a totally different feeling than feeling, you know, frustration. We feel that differently in our body. It's a vibration. And our every single cell in our body has, has antenna, like, on the surface of the cell that's picking up on what's going on out there. So we're constantly in these emotions of, of, like, fight or flight, like defense.

Then the cells are all picking up on that and they're going, okay, defense time. Like, you know, better, don't worry about, you know, immune function and digestion right now. We got other stuff to take care of. So we want to we want as much as possible to to have these emotions. And they can be created in a lot of different ways. Affirmations, memories, you know, just meditation, creating. We can create our emotions in our body. And the more we can create the positive ones, the more we can create the physiology that can them.

Relax. Right? Doesn't have to be in this defense state. So I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Joe Dispenza, but he talks about, you know, yeah, you have to be able to think greater than how you feel. So this is a tough one. I know it's a tough one for people in pain. I was in pain. It's hard to not think about pain when you're in pain. But if you keep thinking about pain and, you know, we're we're kind of creating that, continuing to create that and manifest that because we're creating the emotions.

The cells are responding, the, you know, the physiology response to that. And so we get more of it. So we have to like just do whatever we can, even if it's just moments a day to get out of that. And so if the next best thing to feeling frustration or anger or hopelessness is to just kind of have nothing, just focus on the breath and nothing else that better, right? That's a better step in the right direction. And ultimately we want to be thinking even greater than that. So even thinking, what would I.

I didn't know I was doing this when when I had IRA and it was kind of at its worst. And I started like, I knew about visualization. So I started picturing like, if I felt good, what would I be doing? I was like, okay, I would be hiking. I'd be on a sailboat. Like pulling the sails up. I be playing with a little child grandchild who I don't have yet, throwing them up in the air and catching them again. I was just picturing all these things that I would do if I felt good. And then, of course, you're getting the feelings to go along with that can't just be like the pitcher's feelings to go along with it.

And then, you know, it's not quick, but it can be quick, but it can really make a big difference, big difference in how people feel. So I talk about this, our power. Share this a lot. I don't know how many times I'll be on the summit, but I think it's so important that we we give ourselves permission and nurture ourselves. I mean, who else is going to do it? So many people were just busy being human beings, our human doings, not being human beings. I should say that, we need to take time to really invest in ourselves and our power.

Something that Wayne Dyer, one of my mentors, love. Wayne Dyer. It was something that resonate with years ago. And I've been, you know, doing this for at least two decades. And some people say, well, I don't have an hour. I mean, come on, you. I mean, find a quarter hour, 15 minutes something every day. And preferably I think it's it's best to do it a certain time of day. So, you know, you're locked in. That's when you're going to do it. And it's where you you do the breath work. You do, you do affirmations and you read positive literature and listen to positive material to nurture yourself.

And if you get in the habit of doing that, you'll see dramatic changes in how you feel, how you look, how you relate to the world. And I think without that, you're at a big disadvantage, because when you've got a complex, life draining illness like fibromyalgia

Healing Through Breath, Forgiveness, and Self-Care 30:40

that really test your, your, your willpower every day, without that time to nurture yourself, you're just like most people who just kind of show up and whatever happens to you that day happens to you. Yeah. And the majority of people of fibromyalgia are under so much internal and external stress. And that stress is exhausting. That nervous energy that people have, it's just it's exhausting. It creates more inflammation, more pain, brain fog, anxiety, depression, low moods, irritable bowel, all or associated with this monkey brain chatter that we can't turn off.

And I think the first thing is just to acknowledge that you have a choice on how you're going to react to something. Yeah. And that's far it's hard. But what you shared a moment ago about these different feelings and visualizing your body doesn't care. It doesn't know the difference for something, what you imagine are something that's real. And if you science is pretty clear, science is clear about this. And but really, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize your imagination is just as impactful to your physiology.

Is is reality. And if you don't believe that, go watch some horror movie, you know, on the front row and don't do what I do, which is this most of the time I hate those things. You're going to feel stressed and anxious. I mean, that's the power of, of, you know, being entertained and same thing using the music, music, everything. Right, right. So I think really, you know, what I see with my patients is the first thing I try to do is just calm everything down because they're just so overstimulated and their nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system, is on hyper alert.

And so I think breathing, you know, what we're sharing today seems so simplistic. Oh, come on, really seriously. But it's so powerful that now I've gotten in the last several months, I share this with every new patient. The fact that we're going to we're going to we're going to really work on breathing and and strict stress techniques as much as we're going to work on your diet and exercise and the supplements you need to take and all the other things that go along with helping someone with fibro, this is just as important as is any other therapeutic thing we can, you know, we can talk about.

I'm so glad you're you're encouraging your patients with that because you know, really without the without the prop breathing properly and being relaxed, all this other stuff is not going to work as well. So it's kind of like, you know, throwing money away with supplements because what what difference does it make if you're constantly stressed all the time? I learned that myself. I was I spent, you know, years I think I think most people do learn that at some point. I mean, hopefully they do. And the people that come out of it like yourself, you realize that, you know, this is, self-sabotage if you don't address this, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's so much there's so much we could talk about. The power forgiven is like it. It's probably very tough for people who have had, experiences, you know, trauma and other experiences in their lives. But if we can if we don't forgive, then, I mean, it doesn't mean that you're condoning anyone's behavior, but you forgive for yourself, right? You maybe accept that. Who knows what kind of karma there was that this, you know, had to happen. Or maybe all of it had. Well, it all happened perfectly because that's how it happened.

But maybe everything is here to teach us, to help us learn and grow. And so if you can, if you can have that attitude, for me, it was like, everything's happening for me. It all happened for me. And so then remove the blame because if we're feeling resentment, anger, blame, then it's just it's just going to continue hurting us. Yeah. Continue hurting us. So forgiveness is really huge. And and maybe that might be somewhere people need to start as well. It's just there's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. We, But it's simple.

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now your pain summit, which is fantastic, by the way, and I was really just, honored to be a part of that. But they had such, amazing speakers on there. Great information. But one of the things that you did was the breathing course that you set up. And I know we're going to have I think we're going to I'm not sure if you're offering that as a bonus, but I want to mention your website. So people and I've had patients who have gone through your program, I've seen it. I think it's fantastic. It's easy to do.

It's well it's well, it's easy to follow and it's very well done. But what's the website? They need to go to Jane to learn more about you and and about that program. So my website is the wellness engineer.com. And the program, that you're talking about is, is breathing for healing. It's a little five day course. It's very simple. I simple like simple instructions for each day for five days. And I get messages from people saying it's life changing for them and I get them I love, you know, I love the analytics, right?

Because that's part of my engineering background. I, I get people to do like a little stress assessment, in the beginning and then at the end of five days and people always see a difference. And I say, if you had that change in just five days, imagine if you continued on with this. Yeah. So it's it's powerful. It really teaches people. Yeah. The basics but powerful. Yeah. Well, Jane, that's been fantastic. We've kind of been all over the place talking about emotions and breathwork and, our power.

Some of my favorite things that I like to talk about, that sometimes just kind of don't get in, some of these interviews because we focus more on the biochemistry, which I love, too. But, so I'm so glad that we were able to to, have this, this discussion. And I want to encourage everyone to check out Jane's website, check out that program I've had, and I'm thinking of two, I'm sure. I think I've had more. I've had at least two patients that have gone through it and really enjoyed it. You shared it with me.

I went through it. I thought it was fantastic. So I want to encourage you by to check that out. Jane, thank you so much for being part of the summit. Roger, thank you so much for having me on here. And I really hope that, your, your audience has gotten some useful things, from this. And also just know that there's a lot of compassion for you, and, and that you do have the power. You do have the power to change that defense physiology that's been built up.