How Men Can Upgrade Their Erections

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Betsy, it’s such a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me and thanks for your kind words in that brief introduction.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Now, you’ve had a longstanding history working in fields like men’s sexual health and even vitality. How did you end up being in that field as a profession?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

That’s a fantastic question. that the field chose me. I didn’t choose it. It happens that way. I was just smart enough to listen because I could have ignored it; in fact, I initially did because I just wanted to be a holistic, functional medicine naturopathy doctor. You don’t treat diseases; you treat people. It doesn’t matter what they have. You’re treating people, and when in doubt, treat the gut and things. those things, and then I had the opportunity to work with a few urologists early on in my career. Then I did some work at the Columbia University Department of Urology. I did a fellowship for five years, and that was it. I was like, Wait a minute. First of all, I can’t do everything, despite the principles of treating the whole person. Secondly, this thing is fun. This thing is good. guess what? I’m a man, so I want to know. I want to learn things for myself as well. I’ve had a very awesome and illustrious career, and I’m very grateful for that.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I’m so happy to have you here. Then we’re going to be talking about how men can upgrade their erections, which I love the title of this talk because, as a European gynecologist, this is a fear that I don’t know a lot about. I am looking forward to picking your brains about erectile function in general.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

While you ask questions, I’ll answer, and I don’t know if there is any time limit, but we could go on for a long time about this topic. You let me know.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

It’s one of those things where we all, men, women, and everybody else, take things for granted until they stop working the way they have always worked. then all of a sudden we’re like, Okay, now what? We hear things about Viagra, but I guess what is it that men and their partners need to know about erectile function?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, what they need to know is that there are five things. This is thanks to Dr. Justin Dubin, who was on my podcast recently. He narrowed it down. I agree with the way he did that. Five things contribute to erections or erectile dysfunction. One is blood flow. You need appropriate blood flow to the pelvic area. The other is that you need intact nerves and nerves to function healthily. The third thing is testosterone. You need not only enough total testosterone, but you also need enough free testosterone for testosterone to do what it’s supposed to do. Fourth, you need arousal. So there are guys that come to me and they’re like, I can’t perform. How long have you been with your wife? 30 years. Do you like her? Because there are many, I probably see more couples and more men who are into their spouses after being married for a long time. You would think that’s impossible because there is just no novelty. No, there are a lot of men who still find their wives or girlfriends sexy after being with them for a long time. They’re turned on by them. that’s awesome. Some of them don’t. Okay. Well, do you find your partner attractive? Not really.  Not all bets are off. It’s just not going to happen. The fifth thing is that it’s a state of mind. Where’s your mind when you’re going into the bedroom? Is your mind in the bedroom, or is your mind at the office? Is your mind on the argument you had with your wife that morning, or have you gotten over that? Now you’re in the bedroom, ready to be all in? Excuse the pun. These are the five areas. I tried to figure out where they are on a scale of one to ten in these five areas. then I have them, they tell me, and then we start figuring it out. Oftentimes, it’s performance anxiety. If a man is in a situation where he cannot perform, again, it could be any of these five areas, but it could also be mindset, stress, or just not being aroused. Now, the next time they go into the bedroom to be sexually active, that doesn’t go away. They don’t erase that from their heads. They’re now in what’s called sympathetic mode; their sympathetic nervous system is firing. When that happens, that’s a fight or flight situation in their head, not a parasympathetic, cool, calm person getting into the groove and getting an erection. Oftentimes, they have performance anxiety, even from just one time not being able to perform, and that just perpetuates the problem.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes. I was wondering when it comes to this, and thank God we’re talking more and more about it. You’re looking back, and they say it was like Bob Dole, who normalized the conversation with him.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Honestly, Betsy’s Viagra opened up the conversation. You can say whatever you want about the drug. But what it did was open up a conversation about sexuality. Yes, it was Bob Dole after those Viagra commercials with Bob Dole. Yes.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes. how common is erectile dysfunction?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

The thing is, erectile dysfunction is a loose term. Again, if you’ve had one situation where you couldn’t perform and didn’t get an erection, is that erectile dysfunction or even two? Sometimes they go on the ED list. Roughly, however, about 50% of men above the age of 60 years old, more or less, have some level of erectile dysfunction. It depends on the age range. I stalled there for a second because, in my office, I’ve seen a tremendous number of young men, younger than 40, with erectile dysfunction come to see me for that problem. I don’t know what the current statistics are. The statistics that I’m aware of are outdated. There are more younger men with ED than ever before. younger than 40 and older men. That has not changed much. Just because the man is older doesn’t mean that they’re not able to get an erection. For me, we have a lot of discussions with my patients about their ability to get an erection, and it’s not for them to utilize it, although I hope they do. It’s great for quality of life. But the penis is a barometer of a man’s health. If they told me, “Look, I haven’t had an erection in six months,” I’d say, “Whoa.” I do not care as much about their ability to perform sexually. I’m caring to know if they are in, if their arteries are clogged in their heart, and if they are potentially at risk for a heart attack, stroke, diabetes, or something like that. Men should get erections. I know that morning erections decline with age, and that has to do with our sleep quality, which tends to decline with age, but I need them to give me something like, yes, a couple of times a week or something to get the health aspect of ED out of the way.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I love it. I love that the penis is like a warning flag. Hey, if things aren’t working down there, this is like the body screaming for help, like, “Hello, I’m trying to get your attention.”

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

You look, maybe get your attention, you are stressed, and you need to figure that out. Maybe your stress level is high, and this is like a symbolic way to say, I need to look into my stress level and figure out: do I need to make a move with my job or have a tough conversation with someone that, yes, initially is more stressful, but then it will alleviate the stress? Or is it that my perception of the occurrence is that it might catastrophize things, causing me to have more stress, therefore leading to ED? These are the discussions that are important to have.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I was going to say, Let’s pretend I’m a man and I’m coming to you, and I’m like, I’m not getting morning erections. Where do I start? Maybe I’m having problems performing in the bedroom. It’s like, where do you even start?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

The first place you should start is that I’m stalling because so many of the clinics are not doing a great job. You need to have an hour of conversation with these men. Not 15 minutes.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Can I just pull out the prescription? Well, there are no prescription pads anymore. Or just prescribe the drugs. The drugs are fine, but you need to dig a little deeper. Where do you go? This is a fantastic question because I just don’t think many people or many practitioners are doing a thorough job of it. honestly, while I don’t think that the Internet replaces doctors, you do find good information on the Internet, including perhaps my podcast and things like that, not just to put myself at a higher level and say everything you do, come here. This is your trusted source, which it is. But these are extensive conversations about it, just like we’re doing here. They need to ask better questions. Is it an arousal problem? Is it my state of mind? Then, if you’re saying, Well, that’s not it, then you have to go and check your testosterone levels and make sure that your blood flow is correct. Then you go from there.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I agree with you. I worked in a urology office for a while, fortunately, it was an insurance-based business, and these guys were not getting the time that they needed. I know I sent a friend of the family there, and they were basically in the exam room for less than 5 minutes, and I told them what their problem was. The next thing they’re getting is, Here, take some blue pills. But then there are a lot of treatment options. What are some of the benefits and risks of the different treatment options?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, listen, there is a slew of treatment options. There is a natural approach. That’s where everyone should start. A natural approach requires making sure that you don’t have any type of metabolic dysfunction. Or metabolic syndrome, which is tightly associated with ED. This is high blood sugar, high blood pressure, perhaps high triglycerides, high LDL, bad cholesterol, or, as they call it, those kinds of things. how big you are. Well, I have to be very careful with how I say things in this type of interview. How big your waist is or is not depends on how big your body is overall. Your waist is relative to, let’s say, your hips, for example, because that’s another thing that’s also symbolic of inflammation in the body, fatty liver, and all kinds of things. It’s also part of the metabolic syndrome. You want to deal with that first. Secondarily, you want to always do well. Men always perform better when they have more blood flow and use their natural methods to achieve this. I use botanicals, and I use nutrients. I’m a big fan of, for example, citrulline, which is a precursor to arginine. Then the blood vessels widen a little bit more, and there is more blood flow going on throughout the body, particularly in the pelvic area. It’s so good. It works so well that sometimes people who already have low blood pressure will naturally drop their blood pressure. That’s something that most men would welcome because they typically have the opposite. They have high blood pressure. Citrulline: I like what’s called adaptogenic herbs in botanical materia medica. These are things like ashwagandha, one of my favorites; rhodiola; and Siberian ginseng. Those are great because they’re adaptogens; they help the body adapt to stress and stress chemicals. For example, ashwagandha tends to lower cortisol levels, and we want that when cortisol is too high, you don’t even make testosterone. That’s because there are botanicals that seem to help, for example, with raising testosterone. One of them that I look at is Tongkat Ali, which seems to work very well. Ashwagandha works very well as well. There are some nice botanicals for stress management. We’re New Yorkers, and I can tell them, Oh, well, go meditate for three hours at a time. I need to know what the minimal effective dose is. I just need to teach them how to breathe better to calm down their nervous system. like deep diaphragmatic breathing, breathing out slowly for 8 seconds, and that tends to help them with that. Then you move on to the pills, whether it’s Cialis or Viagra. Tadalafil is the generic name for Cialis, and I do like Tadalafil a little bit better because, at a lower dosage, you get a lot of benefits. It tends to be beneficial for the prostate at a lower dosage, five milligrams a day. It tends to help with erections, though the dosage may be too low for some but perfect for others. It depends on you and has no side effects. With that minimal dosage, it tends to lower inflammation. It tends to be good for the endothelial cells. Low-dose tadalafil is perfectly fine. You have all the other drugs, like Viagra and Levitra, and those other drugs as well. Then you move on to things like more aggressive things like injections with Tri-mix. This is for a man who has tried everything and needs to hit a home run for whatever reason. I don’t know. I don’t live your life like you have this hot day coming, and there is no way you can not function. You’ve tried the drugs, and then the injection works, which is called Tri-mix. When you inject, you get an erection. But the problem could be that it can cause a prolonged erection. These are the guys that are going to the emergency room. Now, imagine that. You go into the emergency room. What’s the health problem like? You have an erection that doesn’t go down. Then that’s that. The last part is an actual device, a penile implant, where they insert cylinders into their penis with a reservoir and a leveler, and it’s all internal. You can’t see anything, and you control the erections manually. You just pump it up, if you will, and it goes up, and it only goes down when you hit the other button, and it goes down, and that’s it. me guys, honestly, some guys. If the nerves are intact, which they should be, they still get orgasms and things. You guys do very well with that. There is a full spectrum of things to do. That is very important either way and in either direction, anyone goes to figure out the cause. Erectile dysfunction is a symptom, not a disease. Then you need to address the cause and go from there.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I love that. I love that focus in that it’s a symptom because too often in Western medicine, we’re treating the symptoms as if they were diseases instead of going deeper to try to find what the source is.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Absolutely. Look, if you have this drug that you’re trying out for, I don’t know, cardiovascular disease, and this is what happened. This drug was in the mid-1990s, and we’re going to see if this drug helps with cardio and reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease. It didn’t do well there, but men were coming back and saying, Look, I don’t know if this is reducing my risk of cardiovascular disease, but I’m getting these erections that I’ve never had before. You have more men coming. That’s the history of Viagra the same story, and, “Oh, wow. Okay, well, we have a drug for this, okay?” There are no real diseases. How do we build for it? We can’t call it impotence. Oh, erectile dysfunction. Oh, now we have a disease that we can bill for and treat with this drug that we now have that treats a disease called erectile dysfunction. Oh, great. That’s how it is. That’s what happens. that it’s confusing. They get confused when people think that many of these diagnoses are real. These are not their only symptoms. Erectile dysfunction is like that.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Sometimes I find I’m dealing with the other side of things with women, and there is this misconception about Viagra. Women get very angry. It’s like, it’s not fair. Men have this pill; we want our pill. There is this interpretation of, like, “I want the horny pill,” and I’m like, “Viagra is not a horny pill.”

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Is not a horny pill.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

It’s a blood flow pill.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Exactly. Well, I tell you what, it’s great that some women feel like that, and they want to be more. They want to have more libido. They think that’s great. But that’s probably dealt with hormonally. They did try the female Viagra, but it didn’t work.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes. Even I remember back in the day with Pfizer when they were doing some studies on Viagra. I was like, Listen, they were studying libido for women,” and I’m like, You guys are studying the whole wrong thing. I’m like, once again, we’re going to be looking at blood flow, and Viagra works great on women. It increases lubrication and sensitivity, engorgement of the clitoris, and the vulva tissue, just like it increases what is to men.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, this is the female penis.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I did want to ask you because this is something that I was not aware of with Citrulline. Why can’t you take arginine or l-arginine? Why does citrulline work better?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Great question. If you take l-arginine, which is an amino acid, you take it orally. There are a lot of enzymes throughout the gut in the liver called arginine that just break it down very quickly, and then it loses its efficacy. For arginine to work, you need to take it frequently. when I say work is eventually leading to nitric oxide production so that the blood vessels can dilate. That’s what I mean by work. It can work, but you need to take it three to four times a day—about 750 milligrams. It’s just not as simple as just taking citrulline, which is a precursor so it’s involved in the making of arginine. What you find is that when you have enough citrulline in the body, it does a better job of keeping enough arginine in the body than if you take arginine orally by itself. You get more arginine in the body from citrulline than from arginine itself orally.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I love the fact that you have this knowledge about botanicals because there are a lot of supplements that are out there on the market. It can be a little overwhelming and confusing to the consumer because, I mean, you could probably search for days and days, and I’m like a sexual function type of supplement. I wouldn’t say out of the things that exist because since you were brought up like the Tongkat Ali, I’m going to start asking you, like, which ones work and which ones don’t because you hear about things like horny goat weed and like, a lot of other different herbals.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, I should also first say that I’ve formulated some of these bottles, so I guess that, of course, I’m partial to what I formulate. But I tell you, things like horny goat wheat are not in my formula, but they could work. Some things are not in my formula that can work. Epimedium is, too. I hate using the term horny goat.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I know.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Epimedium is the botanical name for that herb, and so these things work very well. For example, the cordyceps also seem to work. Cordyceps is an adaptogen, and it seems to stimulate the receptors, the androgen receptors, around the testicular area so that you can make more testosterone. These things seem to work. I also like that I said Ashwagandha; Ashwagandha is a top choice. Rhodiola again, all these adaptogens. Um, what else? Well, there are a few macas there. Again, maca is another one that, while it may work, requires a very high dosage. I don’t necessarily use it in my formulas, but I do think it is essential, I don’t know about essential, but it is also helpful to help men with testosterone, which again is one of the key elements.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I know that comes up, and this is not necessary for erectile dysfunction, but it comes up a lot. What I see for men’s health is saw palmetto.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Yes. Saw Palmetto is a very good herb. It’s a very good urinary product, or, by the way, for both men and women, they’ve done a very good job making it focus on prostate health, and it seems to help with prostate health, but mostly it can help by helping people urinate better. There is a very good herb. Again, you need higher dosages, typically 70 or 50, a couple of times a day for supplemental work that is excellent for the prostate.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes. With that being said, is there any connection between prostate health and erectile dysfunction?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Yes, great question. Are you sure you are a female gynecologist or urologist? Because you’re asking very good questions that most female doctors wouldn’t ask.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

That’s because I just spend so much time in the urology office doing exactly that. It rubbed off on me.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

An enlarged prostate is a benign scenario, and this is where the prostate just gets big. For context, the prostate should be somewhere between 30 and 40 units. In terms of size, once you get it bigger, then it shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve seen, so the biggest prostate I’ve seen is 300 milligrams. It’s like the size of an orange. Most people say that if I get a prostate, I’ll have urinary problems. That’s it. End of story. Not that simple. You can have an enlarged prostate and not have urinary problems. You have a small prostate and tons of urinary problems. But after a certain point, if it gets too big, it starts affecting the nerves of the penis. It starts pushing on the nerves of the penis, which are important for it to innervate for erections. Remember, one of the things out of the five is nerves. Nerve function needs to work well from the brain down to the penis. inflammation or an enlarged prostate, and inflammation can interfere with the transmission of these nerves to the penis. induce erectile dysfunction. While it’s a benign situation, an enlarged prostate does not necessarily lead to prostate cancer, for example. Oftentimes, it doesn’t even lead to urinary problems. It can, but not always. It can lead to erectile dysfunction. If the size gets too big, it interferes with nerve function.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Men are coming to you because, for the most part, they’re experiencing some symptoms. But when it comes to health, when should men start falling for a men’s health expert or urologist?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, there again, I’m partial or biased in how I do things just because I’m trying to address the cause. If you don’t, what are we doing? We’re just doing Band-Aid treatments with pills. You need to try to address the cause because the cause may be leading to something else that’s more or even higher risk of mortality if you don’t look into it. That’s the thing. that if you have had erectile dysfunction for more than three months—literally no erection—then you should do something. You should take action. If it means to see a urologist, I would say make sure you see a cardiologist.

If that’s the case, make sure that your cardiovascular function is working properly, and that your blood sugars are proper and balanced, and then see a urologist. That would be how I would see it.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes. with erectile dysfunction. I know I’ve asked you a lot of questions. Is there something that I haven’t asked that you think is important for us to know?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, look, for ED, I just want to emphasize and repeat the fact that the penis is a barometer of men’s health. That’s a very important point. Erections should not happen with men until they’re older; it’s all things considered. This is how we’re talking about healthy men. If you’re healthy, you should get erections, whether you use them or not. That’s up to you and your partner. The other thing that I should say is that as we talked about the different potential causes of erectile dysfunction, we’ll again hope we go back to the five various mindsets: state of mind, arousal, blood flow, nerves, and testosterone. There is one major component and one major problem that I see as a potential problem with most men, and now even older men. It used to be only young men, and that was overwatching pornography.

Well, look, for ED, I just want to emphasize and repeat the fact that the penis is a barometer of men’s health. That’s a very important point. Erections should not happen with men until they’re older; it’s all things considered. This is how we’re talking about healthy men. If you’re healthy, you should get erections, whether you use them or not. That’s up to you and your partner. The other thing that I should say is that as we talked about the different potential causes of erectile dysfunction, we’ll again hope we go back to the five various mindsets: state of mind, arousal, blood flow, nerves, and testosterone. There is one major component and one major problem that I see as a potential problem with most men, and now even older men. It used to be only young men, and that was overwatching pornography.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Now they are not working on their business and making money. They’re not in the gym lifting weights, which is what they should be doing. They’re not good, and they’re not good sexually. That’s a tremendous problem. Betsy and I don’t even see, and AI has not even touched to scratch the surface yet, so now these lonely guys are watching all this porn and perhaps, I don’t know, having sex with something virtual. Yes, it is a huge problem. I do. That’s my biggest concern now.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I have to agree with you because, when I teach classes about hormones, I can connect this to the fact that anything that stays in a steady state in the body starts to become desensitized to it. It starts to tune itself out. I use this example because sometimes when we do certain hormones, if we don’t vary the doses, or when you’re doing your daily dose and you’re getting that natural up and down from a daily dose, your receptors are going to be more sensitive. When we’re exposing our brains to porn, we gently contact it. Porn is very exciting and titillating when you’re first watching it. But over time, it becomes less and less stimulating. But then you have to, like, watch more. Are you going to watch a different one?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

You get that high that you’re looking for with any drug. If you take a bit of a drug or this feels great, but then it loses its effect, and now you need more and more and more, and then it becomes a problem. that, again, I don’t want to knock on any industry. Some people who are doctors and others who are thinkers say that porn is a little bit beneficial because it helps them learn how to do this, that, or the other. It helps them learn about sexuality. Okay. But the problem is that humans are humans, and sometimes there is not enough that they can get, and they keep going for more and more and more, which becomes a problem. It’s just that access is so easy. Look, before our recording, we were talking about, Hey, I’m looking at these reels on how to put my reels together for the yes, but you and I get caught up in watching other reels. Oh yes. That was.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

I just wasted an hour of my day.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Wow, that’s cool, dude! More and more, and it’s like, it starts feeling good. We have to be super unconscious to stop. I started just putting timers on social media. I put in a five- or ten-minute timer. I don’t; I cannot trust myself anymore. It’s just. Yes. Because every minute counts for me and you. By the way, for these young guys who need to crush it out in the world, every minute counts now. Every minute counts. That’s what I do. It’s important if you’re going to go in, but come out within a reasonable time.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

And it’s interesting because I saw something recently talked about, like these younger kids getting exposed, especially to porn. But I’m glad we’re having this conversation. I saw an interview with Billie Eilish, and she was saying that she blames the porn industry for ruining her sexual life. She’s a young woman, and she said that because, out of curiosity, as a kid, you get on the computer and you can find anything. Nothing is blocking you other than, like, are you 18? And, of course, somebody under 18 is not going to click like they’re going to click. I’m 18; she said she started watching porn when she was 13 years old. that, and now, as an adult, I believe she’s in her twenties. She says it’s affected her sexual life because of a combination of misconceptions about what sex should be like. Then, just from that stimulatory aspect, she became desensitized to things.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Yes, the same thing applies to males and females.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes, probably if you find yourself in that situation. The only way to feel like they’re not natural is to go cold turkey but variant and maybe don’t watch it as much and then.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

I realize that it’s a problem and that it’s not going to make your life better. Is going to make it worse.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

You need to come to terms with that fact and then make adjustments accordingly. I have patients who have gone to sex addiction rehab. While they’re saying that not so much sex addiction is like a segment for porn-watching addiction, through sexual addiction to organizations, they’re taking matters into their own hands, and they’re trying to change that.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Yes, this has been wonderful. I told you I knew before we started that I’d be able to talk to you for hours if we could just keep going. But where can people find out more information about you?

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

Well, thanks again, Betsy, for having me on. It was always a pleasure to talk about these things. that we have, we should figure out how to change things in a more positive direction for young men and men in general. drgeo.com is all things. Dr. Geo, all the work that I do, and of course, my podcast, the Dr. Geo Podcast.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. This was amazing.

Geo Espinosa, ND, LAc, CNS

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

Betsy Greenleaf, DO, FACOOG (Distinguished)

Everybody stick around because we have more great sessions coming up.