Mold Toxicity: The Overlooked Root Cause Of Chronic Fatigue And Anxiety

Introduction and Mold Expert Background 0:00

Hello everyone. My name is Doctor Richard Horowitz and I am the co-host of the Doctors Talk Healing Lyme Summit 2.0. And it is my great pleasure to introduce you today, doctor Jill. Krista, Jill is a mold expert. And today we are going to be discussing the role of mycotoxins in chronic illness like chronic Lyme. And Jill, I just saw you at Eileen's. It was great to see you there. And and thank you for coming on today for doctors talk. Why don't you introduce yourself to people, tell them a little bit about who you are and how you got into all of this.

You bet. So I'm a nature perfect doctor. So I came to this through the nature path route. I also live in Wisconsin, which is one of the leading areas of Lyme disease. And incidence, especially babka, with co-infections. So I started in the Lyme world, and I had these patients that, you know, when when natural medicine didn't work, I went and got islands trained to get more comfortable with using antibiotics. And so I did the integrative model and people just got better. You know, when you identify and treat the cause, it's amazing what happens.

But then I had this subset of patients that weren't responding. And in one of those patients, they found toxic black mold in a remodel. And there's where the Pandora's box opened for me because I thought, I wonder if this is why is, you know, he gets terrible ear ringing from the antibiotics. He has terrible anxiety. That goes the opposite way from anti-anxiety medications. So counterintuitive reactions to medications. Gut's a mess, you know, chronic pelvic pain, all these just goofy symptoms. And I was like, I wonder if this is what's going on.

There's some in nature ethics school we learned about environmental medicine, but I learned about mold primarily as an allergy problem, not as a toxin problem. And, in rare cases, you know, toxic black mold can cause Ms. like symptoms. So that's basically what I left school with. And when I hit the boat, I hit PubMed and I was like, oh my goodness, I'm missing mold all over the place. And I'm not seeing that in human studies. I'm seeing that in animal studies, because we know a lot of these mycotoxins are carcinogenic.

They're listed as carcinogens by the by the cancer societies. So we can't like create a study where we're going to poison someone with mycotoxins to figure out how to get them better. So a lot of this knowledge is just by looking at animal research. And I did that deep dive and I realized, well, a lot of my chronic Lyme patients, a lot of my Ms. patients, a lot of these, you know, chronic fatigue syndrome patients, they actually have mold. And when we address that, then we saw the needle move. So that's how I got into this like mold expert thing started in the Lyme world and then expanded the the reach known.

Of course it was of course the same for me. And you know, I know if you know, I used to joke with Neal, I'm over the years because when we started also, I know you do a training course with Neal and I, of course, incorporated him into my training. And, and years ago when we started doing the training, I used to joke like, look, it's mostly for me, the three BS. It's brilliant, but busier. Bartonella. You know, I'm seeking Leakey God. And I'm seeing Marcel activation and microbiome issues, sleep disorders, vitamin mineral deficiencies as these major, you know, things driving inflammation and and it's not that I didn't know about mold.

I would find it. I just didn't actually think it was playing as big a role as it did. And then it was kind of like over the last couple of years, and I don't know what has changed unless it's, people are getting sicker from all the viruses, and I and I actually think long Covid may have precipitated this in some of the patients because I was having a really, really good success rate years ago with the Daptone protocol, and then all of a sudden could be a group just like you were finding, that weren't responding.

And it was like, okay, let's go looking for the causes. But by the way, the root cause thing, which you guys learned in natural Catholic school, I am so shocked because I realized and I thought maybe it's because I did my medical school in Belgium for seven years where, you know, they teach you, I think, differently because I always, from day one was starting to look for root causes of things, not just name a disease, throw a drug at it. And same thing with us. We learned aspergillosis, right?

Mold, Mycotoxins, and Chronic Lyme Overlap 4:06

Allergic asthma, same exact thing you got some allergy symptoms in your sinuses with mold, but not carcinogenic issues. Not immune suppression. Not chronic fatigue overlaps with these things. So you're right. I had the same kind of come to God with this after a while. Like wow, molds really playing, you know, a big role in these patients. And now of course, we're finding it in I mean, I would guess 80 to 90%, probably of all of our patients at this point of. Your chronic your chronic Lyme. Absolutely. And it's gotten worse.

And in fact, the last couple of years and I've kind of wondered whether the climate and the hurricanes and, you know, the buildings, you know, being affected now from flooding, I've wondered if that's why I'm starting to see so much more of it. Of course, I'm testing now, you know, pretty much everybody. Whereas years ago it was not like one of the first panel of tests I was doing. Now people walk out of my office, it's like, here's your adrenal test, here's your mold test. Yes. Right. Yeah. So, so tell me, tell me a little bit.

You started discussing a little bit about these chronic fatigue and illnesses like the overlap. You were saying. Well what do you see as far as, like the symptoms that you're seeing. And can you really tease it out at this point? Because, you know, Joe Brewer's article years ago was on chronic fatigue and muscle, but it wasn't really discussing like neuropathy. Right. How much neuropathy is due to mold, right. Or how much cognitive dysfunction. You talk a little bit about the overlap you're seeing in the symptoms.

Yeah. Well if there is a Venn diagram though of of chronic Lyme and mold, it's it's almost exactly the same. You know, we see a little more of the allergy component and less of the infection component with mold. But there's a lot of crossover. And I want to thank you actually for your MSDS questionnaire, because I took that into my own clinical practice. And use that model to create a questionnaire for mold. And we had Eric, I followed you to the bathroom one time at a kind of online conference that I was saying, what if we could create something like this for mold?

And you were like, well, it's going to be pretty much the same symptoms. So that was a challenge for me of like in my impatience as a practitioner to to find the cause. I really sat with that, like, what is the thing of my people who have mold and only that they're not Lyme and mold people? What are the things that are distinguishing and different and so I created a questionnaire using your model, which is, you know, broken a model using these three categories, weighting them differently. And that's actually the subject of a mold study right now that Neal and I got funding for.

It's an IRB approved study that we are validating our questionnaire like you did and with your guidance. So I'm just telling it, you know, but I'm just telling everyone who's listening that this is happening. So if anyone's listening, if you have participate in our data collection, it's crowdsourced information that's at mold IQ. Org. Patients can go there, fill out their symptoms and then submit their their lab results. And we're going to data crunch that and be able to answer your question with such precision that we can't do right now.

You know. So right now there are kind of symptom clusters fatigue being number one. So that can look like an athlete who has a lower VO2 max or that can look like somebody who can't get off the couch, you know, so just depends on what level of health you started from and how severe is your exposure to mold and mycotoxins. So if you're getting a huge exposure to the mycotoxins, we know that they cause mitochondrial deficiency. They change the ability to make energy in the body. So fatigue is going to be kind of the across the board symptom that we see.

Now that's not really specific to just mold or Lyme or you know, so that doesn't tell us a lot, but it's really important that it's part of the picture. Anxiousness is another one. The way that we see that mold spores will stimulate mast cells. You were talking about mast cell activation and then the toxins for mold, whether it's living mold or mycotoxins. And those are going to change the, the alarm systems in the, in the brain. So it actually affects the limbic system, which is our survival center of our brain.

And it will raise the fear perception in the limbic system. So we see anxiousness quite a bit. And that can just feel like general unsettled. Something's not right. And people might start to, you know, try to pin something they can put their finger on because mycotoxins have no odor. So if there isn't, if the mold is not exposed to the air, you're not going to get that musty smell. It has to be exposed to the air to get the other things, the aldehydes and things that actually smell like a musty smell.

But mycotoxins have no odor, and there are nanoparticle size, so they can be polluting the indoor environment and there's no warning sign. And so the limbic system is saying, we're not safe, we're not safe, we're not safe. But the the eyes don't see something. The ears aren't hearing anything. The nose doesn't smell anything. It's not tasting anything. So it's like they starts to create this split in the limbic system. So I would say fatigue and anxiousness are the most common across the board. And when I'm saying anxiousness, think of it as like a general feeling of unrest.

Something's not quite right, but you can't quite put your finger on it, you know. And so you might start pinning it. Oh, it's my marriage or it's my kids or behavior. It's my. So they start pinning it on other things. But it can be these mycotoxins causing the problem. Visual changes are very, very common. I'm sure you see this a lot frequently changing vision. You go get your glasses done and then two weeks later they're not working for you. And you think your eye doctor is not good at their job.

It's because mold is causing the visual changes. Ear ringing. I was talking about sinusitis can happen. Lung sensitivity. So you have lungs that you can't be near a smoker at all, or your lungs are going to react or you might react to dust, more so than somebody else. Or wildfire smoke is really hard on you. You're a lot of gut changes, urinary sensitivity, frequency. And then just generalized skin rashes. That's kind of the cluster that's the most common. But what we're trying to do with our study is then if you see this micro toxin, what is the symptom cluster that goes with that.

Yeah. Now no question when you're doing this of course, the problem is is that the overlaps with fatigue anxiety. Right. All of this and including cognition because it is affecting cognitive functioning also. Right. The problem of course is Lyme does this. It causes anxiety brain fog and fatigue. Bartonella does it right. Are you sure we're seeing it in long Covid, which now, you know, I started using Radiance Diagnostics. You know, Bruce Patterson's lab. And we're getting this 14 chemokine cytokine panel.

And we're seeing a lot of people that, you know, when the CCL five rent is, you know, is positive and there's a IL four and you have you know, the long haulers go as high. But we're definitely seeing a lot of people at this point. Well all these overlaps. And so it gets tough because Bart does it Lyme does it Long-Covid does it mold does it I mean, of course, half of my patients at least I affectionately called the walking wounded, right? They've all had trauma, myself included. I've had, you know, physical trauma.

And I was young and emotional trauma and I think as a physician, I probably have a bit more compassion for people who come with this because, you know, I, my wife and I in the camp paths and we feel into people and we, you know, we get it right. We get it. I feel sorry for the people because I understand what they've gone through. But the limbic system gets affected by all of these different things. And then the problem with the cell danger response with the mitochondria right after I do DAP. So we put them on a mitochondrial regeneration protocol.

But it's true if you're not in a safe environment, if the mold is still there or you know, you're otherwise, it's like it's not going to do its job. The mitochondria are not going to get unstuck from the cell. Dangerous months and the energy systems are not going to, you know, come up. So it's kind of complex. It's it's like when I used to joke with people, someone comes into my office with the heads, you know, model with 16 nails in their foot and the doctor, you know, finds one nail, pulls it out and says, come back in a month and tell me how your foot pain is.

And it's like in our world these days, it's

Symptom Clusters and Diagnostic Challenges 12:00

Borrelia, it's BBC, it's Bartonella, it's mold, and it's long Covid right at the top of the list, you know, followed by mast cell disorder, which is stimulated by linemen Bart and mold in long Covid. Right. So we're seeing that with leaky gut and food sensitivities, vitamin mineral deficiencies I can't sleep, I can't fall asleep, I keep waking up. And then the town ten downstream effects of the inflammation of it affects the HPA axis, where inflammation throws off your hormones. And the men come in with low testosterone and the women's sex hormones aren't working and the adrenals are low.

And mitochondrial dysfunction. Potts. Dysautonomia. Right. It's also showing up. And that causes fatigue and anxiety. So so it's kind of like chicken and egg right. With plate. Yeah. With all of these things that are happening. So have not yet been able to tell what's specific. And by the way, when people fill out your mold IQ and again it's mold Icom. Dot org. Org mold iq.org. When they fill this out. Have you asked them to send at the same time. Yeah, they're Lyme testing, Bartonella testing, long launchpad testing.

No. We should expand our IRB. That's a great idea. Please do it because we are finding such overlaps in this community at this point, including when you do the the radiance Diagnostic with the GF. Long Covid can cause inflammation in the vasculature within the filial dysfunction and cause the you have to go up and so does Bartonella. So I said to Bruce, well is it Covid? Is it, you know, is it a Bartonella or is it Covid and Bartonella. You know, that's doing it. And then again with so it's just the overlaps I think would be interesting because you may find the people that say my anxiety is severe is the Bart, the Bart is overlapping the mold.

And then once you crack this, that is the case. And that is absolutely the case. Pandas pans. Anxiety, irritability, rage. It's not just mold. Bart is in there. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you'll probably find the extremes of the severe cases. Right. Will be in that case. But but again so for those of you who are listening, what Jill and I are discussing with, you know, the symptoms of mold toxicity, you're saying it's overlapping pretty much every tick borne symptom, brain fog, even neuropathy. Right?

Yeah, a lot of neuropathy, a lot of neuropathy. I remember learning about Lyme and thinking, this is a neurological disorder. This is this isn't just a joint thing. This is a neurological disorder. And then getting into mold and mycotoxins and realizing mycotoxins are neurotoxic, this is why there's so much overlap. I mean, it is really yeah. I and one thing since you were talking about using my questionnaire the the which I abbreviated MQ, the Horowitz M6 questionnaire, which people can find on my website that can get better.com.

And Jill's mold iq.org. When I would ask about the neuropathy, if you're using my questionnaire is it migrates because the one thing we found with Lyme is now at the time when I did this, we didn't know how many patients really had Bart because we didn't have Bart fish testing. When I started validating this questionnaire back in 2017. It is possible, of course, Lyme, as far as I know, is the only one that causes migratory joint pain, migratory muscle pain, but specifically migratory nerve pain.

What would be interesting, and this is a study I got enough on my IRBs right now. I'm looking to do a randomized trial on Daptone. But but if you ask the people with mold if they have neuropathy, is it migratory or not? And they tell you, no, it's not and they have not been there. Negative testing for lime and Bart, it's like, okay, you can then differentiate to a certain extent with Lyme. Question mark Bart is causing the migratory neuropathy. And if it's not migratory mode may actually be the primary factor.

But again the problem is and I'm not going to tell you to keep adding things to your IRB because you've. But but when we check heavy metals in the blood like mercury, arsenic, lead they all cause neuropathy as does of course, diabetes with metabolic syndrome and hypothyroidism and, you know, carpal tunnel activity. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And and we know from practice. So this this questionnaire I've been tweaking over 15 years, you know. So this is that that's how I even got to the, the quantification part of it was to see, am I catching mold when it's there.

Am I overreporting mold when it's not. You know, so there's a score that they get at the end which is no, not probably mold, possibly mold or probable mold. And then I always recommend that they fill out your questionnaire to make sure is it Lyme and and you know, is it him and said because it may be that and not the mold. And so that that's where we, you know the teasing out. But I can tell you I ask about migratory all the time because I started in the Lyme world, mold neuropathy does not migrate.

It doesn't. So yeah. I would have been surprised if it did. Yes. Yes. Because even Alan steer back early on in Lyme. If you read his early work on acute Lyme migratory pain was showing up in those Lyme. Right. So I'm glad I'm glad to hear that you're not thinking that that's the case. Yeah. And surprisingly, the icepick pain that we all say that's a mold thing that's coming up is more of a Bart thing. And not not the strictly mold sensitive patients that don't have Lyme or co-infections. They don't have the icepick pain.

So I think there's a part I think that's unique to Bart. Just like when Joe Briscoe two years ago identified pain in the bottom of the feet. Is it being one of the classic parts symptoms? Yeah, that has held true over the years. Yeah, right. Interesting finding. And just yesterday, I had a whole family fly out from California, by the way, and this young woman came to see me because she's got very severe neuropsychiatric illness. Right. And when I examined her there with a Bartonella purplish stretch marks perpendicular to the skin planes, and the psychiatrist treating her, who had her on Prozac and Abilify had no idea this woman had Bartonella, so she went home.

To fix it. No. So she went home with a mold kit right on top of the adrenals now. Right. So and by the way, regarding the Lyme, I think what's also interesting for people listening to figure it out, just know when you get back your western bladder, preferably your immuno blot which is checking eight different strains of Lyme. You want to play Lyme bingo. My favorite game of what numbers show up on the Western blot or immuno blot, which is the 23 USB, C, 31 USB, a 34 USB 3983, 93 are very specific for Lyme.

On an immuno blot. The 31 overlaps with Epstein-Barr and autoimmunity on a standard Western blot. But just know when you're filling out Jill's questionnaire mode iq.org, and if you're uploading it, if your doctor told you you didn't have Lyme and you have the Western blot, or you have the immuno blot, I'm even going to tell you to send to Jill, send the bands, let her know, because ultimately this is important stuff to corroborate in this test, right? To be able to figure out whether there may be an overlap or not.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So interesting too, because the people that I think this is kind of we know mold is their problem because they know about their building. And as we start to get them better for mold, the Lyme symptoms get much louder. And I always explain to them that's because the mycotoxins are causing immune deficiency. It impacts the immune system in three really key ways. It's toxic to the actual immune cells out there in your in your bloodstream and in the periphery causes epigenetic changes.

So for people listening, that means the cellular soup that our DNA is swimming in, mycotoxins are impacting the expression of the genes so that it expresses more inflammatory state than anti-inflammatory. And then it's Geno toxic. These a lot of these mycotoxins will actually go in and rewrite the immune genes to be more susceptible to fungal invasion. So invasion from foreign from foreign you know, invaders, which includes other infections, you know, so when we think about that, it's like, what makes sense as we get this thing that's reducing your your immune depletion out of the way, the way that the body shows us stronger vitality often means worsening symptoms, but clearer.

So it's not this, like amorphous. Okay. This person has so many symptoms, we're not sure what is going on when we can get the mold out of the body and a sudden they they're the soles of their feet and the icepick pain gets really severe and they're starting to be really anxious. And like, now we know the next target, you know, that just got way clear. And that told me we're going in the right direction. We strengthen your immune system enough to get loud and and. What's what's really important about what you just brought up is when I published the study last year in microorganisms 2023 about and Bartonella and comparing the six day high dose caps on post to for what we found with Bart is Bart caused the same types of immune deficiency we were seeing with Lyme, where you see low immunoglobulin slow subclasses and the people who had the most strains of Bartonella and or Bbca overlapping had the worst immune deficiency, the worst neuropathy, the worst autonomic neuropathy with pot's dysautonomia, and the worst neuropsychiatric symptoms.

So what people need to know here is since Lyme is an epidemic proportion and it causes chronic variable immune deficiency or subclass deficiencies and so does Bart. Now you're hearing also does mold with Clio toxins arrest. And the next one to add to the list, because the Lyme and Bart are affecting your B-cells that make antibodies is when you get long Covid, it's now affecting your T-cells. So now you're getting T-cell exhaustion, right? Well, you can find viruses and cancer, and here you've got mycotoxins carcinogenic, lowering your immune system on top of Bart.

That's been associated with cancers, right. With melanoma. And colon Noma. Melanoma and inflammatory breast cancer is now associated in the medical literature with Bartonella.

Immune Dysfunction, Long COVID, and Treatment Support 22:00

Whoa. Yes. So we're talking this trifecta of Lyme and Bartonella and mold and even the fourth long Covid. Now all of you know, for people out there that are worried about the viruses that are spreading bird flu, monkeypox, triple A, West Nile, dengue fever, all these viruses that are spreading with the climate at this point, you need to get your immune system checked with immunoglobulins and subclasses, natural killer cells and T cells, CD4, CD8, right. And and basically check for these toxins because we're getting exposed to all these infections and toxins affecting our immunity.

So I would guess that a lot of the people with long Covid who get the worst symptoms, they're showing this. They have limited Bartonella and they can end up having mold on top of it. It's going to be the same toxic soup that you and I are talking about today. That's going to end up being some of the answers for long Covid. And when I published the article this year in Microorganisms in April, we found all 16 factors on the emergence model were with long Covid, just like it was with Lyme. Every one of the differences.

One is a virus, one is a bacteria. But the inflammation I mean, there's different inflammatory cytokines. The way it presents, but it's basically the same 16 factors. Just the micro clots are a little worse obviously with Covid because of what happens with the spike proteins. But yeah, I mean, it's important for people to know listening to us, please check your immune system, right? Because we're we're all being exposed. And I don't think a lot of people realize how dangerous this is. Yes. And to give a moment of hope by knowing that, by measuring it.

And there's also one that I measure for a long Covid, that's the NLR neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio. There is data on Covid. The higher that number is, the higher risk you are for having worse outcomes. There are some great easy things you can do. The things that I'm seeing move the needle the most for that viral Lyme, you know, immune thing is vitamin A. The a lot of people are deficient in vitamin D. So have your doctor check your vitamin A. There herbs that you can take every day that you can get from frontier herbs.

You can get very cheap, like a whole pound of powdered astragalus. Also large or larynx and also aloe, the long chain polysaccharide. Aloe, not just aloe juice for soothing your gut, but the long chain polysaccharide. So you want to check your aloe supplement and make sure it's a long chain. There's a certain like 140,000 Daltons, you know, that we want to hit. So if anyone wants to know the size of the chain, just email me and we can get you that data. Those three things have been profound for raising people's immunity.

We're seeing subclasses improve. We're seeing, you know, the NLR improve and also immunoglobulins orally. And so so again just repeat this. You're talking vitamin A large like large or a rag back up. I'm like don't even. Know. And also aloe. But the long chains. Like aloe the long chain and astragalus. And astragalus. So those are the ones you're finding had the biggest effects. That trio. And you know, not every I treat a lot of kids and not every kid really likes to take everything. But those are all really easy to get in a kid as well.

So if you're dealing with kids, they all taste pretty good. Larch and and, aloe. The aloe is a little more on the bitter side, but if they mix those three, you know, put it in a little sirup or whatever, and you can get it in a kid, too. But those are the things I'm saying, really. Move the needle. The astragalus dose needs to be about 600mg twice a day. The large, you know, around 300 or 500 twice a day. And then the aloe we're looking at it depends on the, the long chain, but we're looking at about 500mg a day is helping.

And then vitamin A, I just have because it's fat soluble. You don't have to take it every day. The body can absorb it. However, if someone is mold sick, their bile is real gummed up. So that whole fat soluble nutrient absorption thing is interrupted. And if they're on binders that are bile so questions they're not going to get that. And so the aim needs to be in an emulsified form. One of the doctor brands I use this a royal. They have something called emulsion. And I just do a big dose every week so that you don't have to think about it every day.

So anywhere in the 200 to 250,000 I use per day, per week, I say this right and then measure vitamin A if you're taking vitamin A, because it can be toxic to the liver. So make sure your doctor's monitoring your level. But yeah. So those three herbs vitamin A, an oral immunoglobulins like something like an SBI protect. They have been helpful at improving the NLR. So neutral sites lymphocyte ratio or neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio and bring up natural killer cell count. The other thing that we've found extremely useful is, I'd published the first article in the world literature on glutathione for Covid back in April 2020, and at the time, I decided to give it because we used to give glutathione an IV when a Busia patient would come in with shortness of breath, and we'd find within minutes the shortness of breath would clear.

By the way, we also found with the visual stuff you were discussing earlier. Right, doc? I've got this blurry vision here. Take 2000 of blood orally a day for seven days. Get back to me and half the patients say, oh my God, my vision cleared. It's like, go God, you got neurotoxins? Go check yourself, right? Yeah, yeah. I, I but. What we didn't know at the time is the viruses have to lower glutathione to replicate. And I didn't know this at the time because I've been using glutathione for decades, you know, for detoxification and pulling out fat soluble toxins.

What I didn't realize is whether you're talking about the flu or HIV or dengue fever or Covid, they all have to lower glutathione to replicate. We have not had one death in our entire medical practice in four years with Covid, but we so we I on my website can get better. Com I have the protocol back from 2020. It has not literally changed right. We had melatonin from the very beginning for as an LRP three inflammatory inhibitor we had vitamin D which it showed the people with the highest vitamin D levels did better.

We were using beta glucan. So I use immune from Xamarin, you know, 500 to 1000 a day. We were stimulating Nrf2 with curcumin and broccoli seed extract, basically using our complex from Xamarin. But there's so many good brands out there of graphene and we found that stimulating NRF two to lower inflammation blocking NF kappa B with any C alpha lipoic acid glued. These people did incredibly well. And this is of course, before Paxlovid was available. So these are great. To do something. Yeah. We have to do something. Yeah, absolutely.

So these are great tricks we're sharing for immunity. And I just took notes, by the way, just to make sure I was down. By the way, that's the beauty of doing these doctor talks is we're learning from one another, right. As we do all the time when we're doing this. Like the melanoma bar connection, I had. No, I just two patients just popped in my head that I need to go check now. What. About test and tell? Tell us a little bit about testing. Differences between antibody testing, Great Plains mosaic, versus or vibrant versus doing the real time lab urine testing.

I know Neil's biases on this. Let me hear your take on it and what you like about the testing for mold. Oh, testing. So I think I've done more split sample testing than anybody on the planet. I'm pretty sure I don't know of anyone else that's done it. And I also have identical twins and my friend has identical twins. So I got to kind of do some, you know, twin research, which, you know, my, my kids kind of jokingly call me Hitler when I start saying, okay, you take this and you don't number know when I need your pee.

But so the dark joke, but yeah, I mean, I have I had also patients where I was sure something was happening and I wasn't being represented in the lab. And so I thought, I want to understand how these are the same and how they're different a little bit better. So I have years and years of using real time lab on the with the same urine sample as a mosaic. And then vibrant came along and so added vibrant. And then my Michael came along and added my my go against building. And now I just want to warn everybody trying to match your mycotoxins testing to your building is crazy making because you can be sick from a mold exposure ten years prior.

The colonize your sinuses, colonize your gut. You are now the moldy building, and it was that next building that tipped your tipped your cup over so you may not be able to match it to your building. So I just want to say that because that makes a lot of people really freaked out. They're like, they didn't even find that mold in my house. Oh no. And it can be really anxiety provoking. So I just want to say that, so in my learning, I found that if we use glutathione alone with the mass backed urine method, we're actually underreporting many of the many Michael toxins because the glutathione is changing the molecular structure.

And that mass Spect cameras set to look at one molecular structure. But when you add glutathione on, it's a few steps down the metabolic pathway and the camera is missing it. And I learned that from my twins. One was really good at taking as good with I own. One was not because he didn't like the flavor. I didn't even know I was doing a split sample. Split sample? Because identical twins, same genetics, same house, same exposure, same diet. I was cooking everything. They went to the same school, so lunches were the same school.

Exposure was the same. The one that took Bluetooth. I own his tri code. The scenes were a lot lower and some non-existent than the one that did not take the glutathione on, and I thought that was really interesting. So then I just repeated it to see if that was something that happens and it was repeatable. So, now I try to make sure there there are a lot of things I learned. I learned about how diet can impact deer and mycotoxins testing. And I think the, the big question that I get is, what's your favorite test?

And I always say that's not the right question. I want to ask a question back, which is what's the question you're trying to answer? Because that's going to require a different cluster. And I do think in a perfect world, we would run the antibody blood test against mycotoxins. Also antibodies against mold. Because if someone's allergic to mold that's a little warning sign for me that they have mold in their environment. We should be able to handle a little bit of mold outside, you know, and we all have to, you know, live in I know where you live.

Same thing like, this is a time of year where all the leaves are on the ground, they're getting wet. There's more mold in the environment, so we should all be able to handle that and not have a fulminant allergic reaction. And I think it's really important to run a urine mycotoxins test because then we're seeing what's the body burden. And so if we're trying to answer the question, the most important question to answer is, is my patient exposed to mold right now? The best way to do that is a mold allergy test to regular old spores.

My my co lab, my code talks and antibody test because that will tell us if the IgG E is high, there's a very high chance that person is exposed currently in mold. So in the last 2 to 4 weeks in an in an appreciable way and an extent to have their antibodies being made, people with that HLA pattern aren't as quick to make the antibodies so that they'll be underreported. And people taking suppressive medication, like if they're on steroids or something like that, that's not a great lab. So that's a nice thing about having so many options, because we can pick and choose what works for our patient.

But then running a urine mycotoxins test, the Elisa and the mask are measuring different things. So that's another thing that people will say I, you know, I ran my own blood sample test and I got a different Elisa result than I did from the the mosaic or the vibrant. And I would say, yeah, of course you would. Because they're testing different methods. Any positive is significant. So this idea that, you know, we're going to throw out a lab because it was different than the other method, it doesn't make any sense to me because they're measuring different methods.

So if a patient must be on Bluetooth Island because of their brain fog or something that I use real time and I don't use the mass spec because I learned it's going to falsely lower the tri Co two scenes and other types of mycotoxins so I could go on and on about like how to test. But the question about is my patient and mold mold allergy. My miko Miko talks an antibody. If the MPA is high on a urine test. The MPA is a mold metabolite. It's not a miko toxin. You're talking micro phenolic mica. Phenolic acid. Yep.

So mold will make that if it's actively growing. And so and it's water soluble. So we clear it pretty quickly. It's rapidly absorbed and it's rapidly excreted. So if we're seeing a high IgG on the my miko and a high MPA on the urine, that person's probably in mold. And that's our first priority is getting them all taken care of. Yeah. So you know I'm mostly and again I learned this from Neil years ago. I'm mostly using the real time lab. And I do use glutathione on an hour before. But almost everyone has track of thickens now when I'm when I'm testing them I mean yeah.

Elisa shows it. Yeah. I mean I'm basically seeing it almost in everybody. The, the apple the toxins are generally high. The highest I've seen, by the way, was 50 times above the normal range in a patient in Europe who did not respond to seven pulses of high dose tap zone active part part fish positive would get a little help.

Mold Testing Methods and Interpretation 35:00

And I kept saying to them, are you sure you've been exposed? And he said, no, there's absolutely no way. And I said, look, just check yourself to be sure. When we got back the results, it was the highest results I've seen. And when he finally got to about halfway down, detoxing the mold faster little colon, three grams twice a day, 500. Occlude twice a day. Alum max alpha lipoic acid, 600 twice a day to the, the binders. We were using this GI detox with charcoal, clay, little glucose man. And up the fiber line from Xamarin.

Saccharomyces Velarde, the, you know, standard protocol. Once it got to half down, he said, oh my God, I finally feel the effects of everything we have done up until now. But in total, those toxins were all the way down. He couldn't he really couldn't tell. So so question now about the antibody versus this. If you because vibrant and I have to check with them I think now in New York they just got some new approvals in New York. And I have to see because would you say in general, because one of my patients just asked this question, his mole test was getting better.

He kept detoxing. It was getting better and better. And all of a sudden on this last test, it shot all the way back up. And then the question is, and he didn't get he yet do it reconnaissance or anything to clear the sinuses or the garden. And we were wondering what is from internal. What does he still like? As you said, he is the moldy building is. A moldy building. Versus what is outside. Because they had a company come in, they really couldn't find a lot. I've already told people, yes, you can be exposed ten years ago at your college dorm and it may not be from that, but do you find like in heavy metals?

When I used to detox them, most of the people the detox goes well. It keeps going down. You know, sometimes I'll see a little bit come up, but they come down with metals. I used to see sometimes like mercury would come down and, you know, arson would carry on. That lead would shoot up and then I'd key late morning let. So when you're pulling these things, are you finding it in layers also where you're sometimes finding some of these coming out in layers and some shoot up because they're layered in the body.

You can see that without necessarily exposure or, and, or is it that there may still be spores that are existing in the sinuses, in the gut. And that's why it needs to be cleared? Yeah, both can be true. It is a little different than the sedimentary layers of heavy metal toxicity. You know, it was like you could get the easy ones off and then it would be the more stubborn ones and the ones that needed a a more like a dye tile instead of a mono tile could get it out of the body. And you needed a little different kind of way to get it out.

With the mycotoxins, it's a little bit different because they are the smoke of a mold factory, and if that mold factory is still in the body somewhere, the smoke can go up again, even if you detox it all out. So a lot of times that's a sign that if we've done a good job like earlier, you're saying, you know, standard protocol. I do things a little bit differently because my patients, when I add Saccharomyces Velarde, they get the sweet cravings that usually will flare for them, neurological problems.

And so I'm like, yeah, you know, and I found some research that shows the Saccharomyces can keep zero unknown in its reduced state, which makes it more toxic. So I just thought, you know, I have lots of other ways to, to bind people. I'm just going to by. The way, I learned that from Neil with the Saccharomyces. But yeah. But of all of my patients to stop, see diphtheria, take Saccharomyces for a period of time. And we haven't seen a case to see death in in ages. So you're not necessarily leaving the Saccharomyces on board when they're doing the mold because you're finding sweet cravings.

It's the first time I've actually heard this sweet. Cravings and more neurological problems. Yeah. Okay. And so I just was like, you know, all the animal studies are beautiful. It works perfectly as a binder. It binds all the things it says. And the animals are fed a measured diet. You give a human Saccharomyces. And I learned this from my patients. I mean, I found the research just like everyone else can do that on PubMed. And I was like, oh, I use Saccharomyces all the time for antibiotic diarrhea.

Great. You know, or to prevent Candida, like you said, CD if I gave it to my patients and my patients taught me, they're like, is it weird though, that my that my neuropathy down my legs is worse? And I was like, I'm not really sure because. So of course, in your head you're thinking, okay, what's going on with the infections? And and it just happened over and over and over again that they started to become carb cavers had more Candida issues. And I was like supposed to go the other way around. So I think when mold is in the environment, there's so much immune suppression that it just it allows, you know, those of us that are free choice diet eaters, you know, we're not fed a measured diet.

We're going to go over to the sweets and the alcohol and things like that went with the Saccharomyces. So I just don't I just don't use it because we have so many other options. So what do you. Yeah. So what do you like for what do you like as binders for pulling. What how are you doing it at this point in time? Yeah, I in an inhalational exposure, the mycotoxins are getting in through the respiratory passages, through the skin. It's different than an ingested exposure. So before I do any urine mycotoxins testing, I have patients go on a three day low mycotoxins diet.

So if anyone wants that handout that's on my website in the footer, you can share it in the summit if you want to. There's a 48 hour washout period for most mycotoxins, which means if you ate it today, two days from now, 48 hours from now, you should have excreted that already, either through your liver, in the bile, or through the kidneys. And it turns out the kidneys are the primary route of excretion for most of these mycotoxins. So we can enhance kidney clearance. And we're doubling our detox power.

And it takes the pressure off the liver. And what what do they have to avoid specifically. The high mycotoxins foods. And I change that handout based on the latest research. So it's going to be things that we know are going to be contaminated with mycotoxins. They're not just talking peanuts and aflatoxins and stuff. You're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Corn. You know corn is really high in humans. And so some of those things that we know are going to be contaminated and that's based on, you know, food testing and things like that.

So I'll update that every now and then by the latest testing. And kind of going back to what you were saying. Oh, I just lost it. It was good. Oh, sometimes the mycotoxins don't come down because we're not addressing the way the body wants to excrete that. So, like okra toxin. Zarrella known citron, and these are persistent mycotoxins because they bind to the albumin in the blood and the kidneys can't clear it because it can't lose enough albumin. So the kidneys are in this decision point of like, I know there's a toxin on this albumin, but if I let go too much albumin now I don't have carrier proteins.

I don't have osmotic balance in the blood. You get more pots. A lot of times the parts are add taurine and it stabilizes that osmotic balance in the body. And what will help with denaturing the mycotoxins from the albumin is biofilm. Benoit's specific bio for Benoit's definitions Zarrella known and acids and Zanten and ast is Anthon they help denature and then the kidneys can just get rid of it. And now the albumin can stay. So the GFR can just take take the albumin and put it back into the bloodstream.

So that's one way that that's the preferred way. If we think of an inhalation exposure mycotoxins are coming in. They're they're lipid soluble. So they get direct access to our capillaries direct access to the bloodstream. So they're really available in the bloodstream for the body to say okay this one we want to get rid of at the kidney level. If there's enough bile to have a noise in their bloodstream, it'll clear the kidneys. If there's an which bile flavonoids. Again just to be specific with which ones do you like specifically that.

Yeah. I use so so full disclosure, I'm formulating for a company that specializes is in mold detox. So of course I'm going to create my favorite by a black and white. So there's a product called Color Guard that is a mix of bio five adenoids. When we take the persistent mycotoxins and we look at the research studies which which bio flavonoid helps with the albumin denaturing. That's a mix of those bio flavonoids that do that. And from diet I mean just can you get it from from eating them. It's not going to be I tried to do this because I'm a naturopath.

I tried to do this diet only. I found that when they have a micro toxin load, they really they need supplementation. You can do it through juicing. So anything in the orange color band. So if you're, you know, if you're a juicer, carrot juice can help. And if you like squash, you know, you can eat a lot of squashes. You can do orange, yellow, orange and red bell peppers. Those help, so you can do it through diet. I highly recommend people enhance their diet, though, with some supplementation early on just to help with that detoxification.

Take the load off. The fatigue gets better, the cognitive function gets better, the eyes get better. All of that, you know, dark circles under the eyes. That's always a sign to me. Their kidneys are under stress and I know I need to be supporting them with bile, flavonoids and melatonin. Kidneys love melatonin. So yeah, there's just those little things that we can do. So you're asking what binder do I like now? First I do bias I have a choice before binders because I want to double the detox power.

I want to use the kidneys, you know. And then the binder, if we think about it in the bloodstream goes to the liver. Liver packages these mycotoxins into bile. We're really binding bile when we're binding with mycotoxins. Unless they're eating a lot of them, then we want to do those specific mycotoxins binders. Or if they're constipated, the mycotoxins will come off the bile. And that's why we're using the specific ones like in Neal's research. That's so important to know, you know, charcoal for this one, you know, that kind of thing.

But I, I really focus on doing bile binding, which is insoluble fiber. So insoluble fiber is they have lots of studies that aren't related to mold. People are missing their gallbladder. People have bile dump diarrhea. They find that insoluble fiber such as psyllium. It's one of the, you know, oldie goldies. And so they're really, really, reliable. Flax chia if they have Sibo, the Sibo safe ones. Sunflower sesame seed. By the way, every morning in my yogurt teaspoon of flax organic flax. And by the way, we only found the organic flax.

Believe it or not, northern is from Canada. We couldn't find a full organic flax here in the United. We thought spectrum. For saying that. So we have a we do a teaspoon of flax, a teaspoon of black seed and a teaspoon of hemp, every morning in the yogurt. So I'm making sure both for Aquaman and all the good species of my gut, Bifidobacterium, etc. but now I'm finding out, and I didn't realize this, that you're also using it. I didn't realize it was having also an effect. At the same time. I mean, of course it makes sense because I'm not I don't like a lot of cultist.

I mean, not, I mean the gas and the bloating. And apart from replacing vitamins, fat soluble vitamins, I just found it difficult for people to take. And because the charcoal clay binds make most of these any way apart from using glucose. And I just found it easier on people's guts. But, I wanted to also ask you about humic for the acid, because this is coming across my screen lately and it binds a lot of things. Do you, do you use it in the protocols and how to use it? If so. So I learned from Doctor Steven Harris a long time ago that it works really well for Lyme disease.

It gives people like a cellular battery charge. If they're really, really depleted people. And I use a product from Mother Earth Labs. It's in a glass bottles. There's no migration of plastic or anything like that. I found though, because I was so excited about it. For Lyme, some of my more sick patients would get more neurological problems from it, and I'd be like, what is going on? I don't really know. Again, you see the patterns and then you do the the putting it together, finding out that it's basically fermented soil juice and fermented products in general are harder for people who are mold sick.

They have more histamine. They they just have more, you know, potential for having mold be in the picture with the ferment, like a lot of the nutrients are our fungal ferments. And we put them in the capsule, you know. So I do use it, but I use it very cautiously. And I will I will send home a sample bottle so someone doesn't have to buy the whole big old bottle and see if they're one of those people. That's a fermented product sensitive person. And then I don't use it. It, it, it has been shown to be good binders, but again, that is going to be loose mycotoxins that are loose from the bio.

So I don't I will use it for the people where I'm looking, kind of like how I use it with lime. You need a cellular upcharge. You know, people who kind of need that, like cell by cell. And you can just see it, there's the light is dim. And so I, the research is, you know, it binds some things, but I see it really more as people who are really mineral deficient and need a cellular charge. And then I find it really. And you, you I've been I've also asked I normally you're supposed to be doing these a couple of hours away, like clay, charcoal a couple hours away.

You find also with humic Volvic if they tolerate it. Or that I use it with food, just like with the insoluble fiber, I use it with food. You do you and yeah. Yeah, because I was with Dennis Schoen from Research Nutritionals just a couple of nights ago because they have a by Michael Paul. Right. It talks and pull a Michael poll. And I was asking him about it. And I was also asking the rep from Cell Corps because they have one. Also, I was kind of curious because I'm not using a lot of it now. And I wanted to just check it out for some of these patients that as they said, I'm having good results with the protocol I'm using.

Yeah, but I'm finding some stragglers which like, why did that just. And that's why I'm asking you these questions. So. But you can take the humic and Volvic with food you're not finding. It's finding the things that the same. If anything. Well, the way I'm thinking of it is I'm using it as a mineral supplement. So, you know, the fact that it's a binder is sort of like. Oh, yeah, because it's a chelating, you know? So I'm finding it more beneficial, actually for heavy metal toxicity than for mycotoxins.

Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I just give it with food. We need that stomach acid to kind of further collate the collate and

Detox Strategies, Binders, and Antifungal Use 49:00

and it's really helping people with the, the trace mineral deficiencies. Like I said the people who just need a cellular battery charge got it. So I don't think of it in my head as a binder. Got it. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I was I was just kind of curious because all of a sudden it's coming across, you know, I, I really think like literally 75 supplements a day. It's like if you walked into my kitchen, I sometimes do this, by the way. So we, we have a 1860s medical bar. And I just opened on my property.

So, so I'm, you know, it's like a 1700 square foot. We played ping pong. In fact, just yesterday, the kids, I walked in there and the kids are playing ping pong while I'm waiting for physical examination. I'm probably the only doctor I've got ping pong going on before we do the physical examinations in any case. So I sometimes take people down to the my house. It's like 500ft away and I go, I tell you to take these supplements, but take a look at my kitchen. I just want to show you what I'm swallowing every day.

And it's like, because I was wondering for myself, I realized that I had eaten a bit of dark chocolate for a while, and I'm then wondering how much leaded cadmium did actually get in my body. I need a heavy metal detox and I'm thinking, oh, I don't want to do DMZ again because I got a little itchy on it last time. Let me try the humic and phobic, so I, you know, but taking it to see and it seems like I'm I. By the way, I am a little histamine sensitive. I can't do like, corned beef sandwiches with sauerkraut.

And my wife can't do, you know, fermented foods like bone broth and stuff. She gets both. But for some reason, I'm tolerating the humic and phobic without. Without a problem. Yeah. Where I see the people have more. Problem is if they have a greywater spill. So a what? A clean water spill if you want to think of it that way, like, you know, rainwater coming through the roof that doesn't have a lot of bacteria in it, whereas like a sewer backup, you're going to get a lot more bacteria in the moldy building, which we haven't even talked about endotoxins and act of my seats.

But, if they have more of a bacterial load from a greywater spill, they tend to have more sensitivity to the humic Volvic. Whereas if it's just mold. And that's because hemophiliac isn't fungal ferment, it's bacterial ferment. So they can usually handle it. Okay. So if I'm taking this with minerals and stuff and people are taking it with multi minerals and stuff, it's fine because you're saying it's part of the fiber. That's that's kind of getting in there at the same time. Yeah. So basically it's it's a chelating mineral supplement.

Got it. So one last question I can I by the way you and I could be doing this usually for now I know I don't know, I can see this I can see this could go on for hours. We're almost going on an hour gel. And it's like, I don't even know where it went. I don't either. Yeah. We have lots of talk about. What we did. One last quick question though, and then we'll going to wrap up a little bit, germy testing when people do the home testing, role of germy testing for people as opposed to just having a mold remediation company come in there because there's all kinds of different tests they do with dust and mold sampling in the air.

Can you just discuss just briefly, and then we'll kind of wrap this up and we'll give people an overview. Yeah. So Hermie testing is good for speciation. It's not good for giving you an idea. If you use the Hermie score. The algorithm that's used is very problematic for diagnostics. The hermie was developed as a survey instrument and not as a diagnostic tool. So we're using the wrong tool. So what we should have and what a lot of really good inspectors have is sort of a an hermie per species amount that is alarming to them.

So they have kind of like an interpretation matrix. Jason Kester of Kester Clear, he's in the Pacific Northwest. He has one of the best, interpretation matrixes that that's out there. And it's basically, you know, if you see stacking the stacking batches and the count is above five, that's a problematic situation. No matter what the Hermie score is. So I just say to people, throw at the score and have your inspector look at the species and the level, the total count of that going on in your home.

I also combine it with a home mycotoxins dust test, because you can have the spores completely sealed off behind building material, or if it's in the attic. But the mycotoxins are able to migrate into the indoor environment, and it's the mycotoxins that are creating for my patient base, 70 to 80% of the symptoms of mold illness is because of the mycotoxins. You know, the spores are causing more allergies, cell, that kind of thing. So I want to know what the mycotoxins load is too, because that's a big player in the symptomology.

So there's a company called the Hays Microbial Lab. You can get it from your inspector. I have the kit on my website. That will do a mycotoxins dust test using a sterile swab. That's the other problem I have with the Ermey. Make sure you're using a sterile measuring tool. If they say, go get a Swiffer and test. How do you know the Swiffer wasn't dusty? You know, or moldy? Or it was stored in a moldy warehouse. So anyone doing an army should be sending you a sterile measuring tool. So a sterile swab or a sterile whatever.

And with this mycotoxins dust test, they test, over 25 mycotoxins that are often missed. Chad, a Globus in which is often missed in all of the the testing. And that one goes through the blood brain barrier. It's connected to dementia. It's a really important one for us to know about. So through haze microbial which is any doctors that are listening, you can get an account with them and get kits and send those with your patients as well. And it's, you know, really, really affordable comparatively.

You know, you're getting 25 plus mycotoxins for about $300. Okay. It's a wonderful assessment. Great. And last question I have, the amount and the importance of it. Reconocer all for for people who have mold in their sinuses, mold in their gut. Tell me what you've seen with people who've been detoxing the mold. They take it to all. What has been your experience with it? How much does it actually help? Again, if they are the moldy building I'm going to assume it's going to make. But I want to hear from you, your experience and what's the dose you've been using and the length of time averaging.

Because, you know, we learned in med school, be careful with this because the liver functions, you know, that 1 in 1,000,000 person who the liver goes off. And so I'm always careful using it and the length of time. And I've been speaking of doctors have used it for months. So I want to hear from you the length of time used at the dosing and what you've seen in patients. Yeah, especially as a naturopath. Right. Because we were what anti medication. Well not not not the ones I know. That runs you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I like to I think the the liver enzyme issue is people who were were in mold and they took it to Kanazawa and they weren't prepped because that's the other thing about using antifungals. You need to prep the body for the fact that what we know from petri dish studies is mold will make more mycotoxins to defend itself. When you start attacking it. So if you haven't cleared out the body burden of mycotoxins first, which is all the stuff you're talking about, you know, liver detoxification, what I'm talking about biofilm avenues for kidney clearance.

Prep the body, get it ready for the fact that there's going to be an onslaught of mycotoxins the minute you start an anti-fungal. That's when I really pump the charcoal. And yes, I do use it for connoisseur. I usually start with plants for most patients, not, you know, people who are really oxalate sensitive, histamine sensitive. We might need to use the pharmaceuticals first to get the levels down. And then transition them to herbal. But it token is all it's rare if I decide it's time to use it, that I use it less than 30 days.

A typical is 60. We'll test liver enzymes on day 45. I see sometimes it will rise, but not into dangerous levels because I've prepped my patients right there. Their livers are ready for the onslaught of the micro. And 200mg. You've had to go higher. I started 100 and see, because, you know, the ultra sensitive you start with 200 and it knocks them out. And the way the tray cells are metabolized, we lose a lot to what's called first pass metabolism for people who are living, listening. We docs know this, you know, first pass of the liver, you're going to lose a ton.

So 100mg twice a day means you're going to lose more drug if you do 200 at one time. So 200 if you're going to go up, then you want to be using 200 at one time if they can if their gut can tolerate it because then you're getting more medicine. Yeah I haven't I mean 200 once is kind of what I've been I've most people have seemed to be able to tolerate it fine. But I'm giving them a lot of liver detox. Yeah. Supplements I mean including even from and they make a midcaps TPO with dual phase optimizers with DNA or methane and sulforaphane.

I mean, so they've got so much in there to get the liver prepped for it. Even Doctor Zhang makes it happen. Number two, that we found liver protection. We've even use that sometimes to protect people when we when we need it. Have you ever had to go to 400mg? You found that 200 is usually average dose and enough for most people 200. And then I'll add herbs for resistance. So if 200 isn't doing it, we've got some resistant species. And there have been plenty of studies using, you know, using triangles with herbs, a couple herbs, thyme, oregano powder, arco garlic.

Closing Remarks and Resources 58:00

The garlic is like across the board, the easiest one because pregnant patients can take it. They can take it. If they're nursing Pao to arco, they cannot. So yeah, those are plants that I'll add then to make sure that we're dealing with the resistance. Got it. And a lot of them. Starting with them. Yeah. And a lot of my patients are on cinnamon clove. Regular oil is biofilm agents. So they're really doing most of these too. Yeah. So yeah I should have mentioned the clove is in any studies but I use it for resistance.

Yeah. That's the thing is a lot of people think, oh I took this Candida formula. So I'm taking care of the mold. No yeast is a single cell molecule or single cell organism. The spores are multicellular. So if it's good for yeast does not necessarily going to knock out the mold. You need things that are stronger. Yeah. No, I have to tell you this was one of the the best interviews I have done. And it's not to say anything against any other. This was fabulous. It was so fabulous. Speaking to you people again.

Get a boatload of information from this particular talk. So again it's mold iq.org is where they can get the questionnaires, the information on bio flavonoids. All of that is on that website. No the bio. So have a nose that'll be on my doctor the website that's Doctor Chris sitcom Dr. Christopher. Com you can get my low mycotoxins urine mycotoxins prep sheet. My handouts. I have a ton of video blogs and information. I have specific mycotoxins, protocols. If you go to Doctor Chris A.com slash aflatoxin, you'll get a symptom list, a protocol that's specific to that.

Mycotoxins and how we detoxify it. And if they want to read some of your great books. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Maybe we should show them some of the books. The mold. And then because mold is behind Pandas and Pans so often a light in the dark for pandas and pans. I'm a mama of kids with pans. So I've got in the trenches. Experience on that one. Yeah. Yes, it was a real treat to chat with you. Yeah, I for me also. So I just want to thank you so much for taking the time today. People really they're going to get a huge amount out of this talk.

Listen blessings to you for everything you're doing. You're you're filling in a gap, by the way, for all of us. You know, we all have our niches and specialties. But the great part is, is that we're we're learning from one another along the way, and we're and we're all in the same field of chronic disease medicine, right? So I mean, what you do is important for what I do. What I'm doing with Lyme and Bart is important for you and Neil. So it's, yeah, it's it's just great. So keep up the great work.

And and again, you've been listening to Doctor Jill. Krista, we've been discussing mold toxicity, and overlaps with chronic Lyme and chronic fatigue illnesses. This again is Doctor Richard Horowitz, your co-host for the, Doctor Talks Healing Lyme Summit 2.0. Thank you so much for joining us today. We'll be seeing you again soon.