Certified PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation) Coach

Dr. Debi Silber 

Of course. Well, thanks so much. And first of all, I mean, most importantly, you forgot to mention I’m an FDN. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Well, I’m modest about that, you know, like… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah, and that’s where it all started. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Thank you. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

So, I’m just thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. So, you know, you don’t study something like betrayal unless you have to. And I had two horrible betrayals that just sent me on that search for meaning and, and I know a lot of, a lot of FDNs went into that because they wanted to, to solve some of their health mysteries and, and it’s the same thing. So, I needed to understand how the mind works, why people do what we do, they do, and how I could heal. So, I enrolled in this PhD program in transpersonal psychology, and that’s the psychology of transformation and human potential. And I know that wouldn’t be what maybe a lot of people would do after a betrayal. 

But I guess for me it was sort of like, you know, it’s time to put myself on my own to do list and what do I need to learn here? And, and it’s, it’s my time, you know it had always been about everybody else and I have four kids and six dogs and, and a business. And I’m like, no, I have to do this for me. Anyway, so it was time to do this study. And so I studied betrayal, what holds us back and what helps us heal and what happens to us when the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries. And, and you know, the first, well, and I’m happy to share what the discoveries were, but it was so exciting, Reed, that I just couldn’t keep that to myself. I mean, I had been in business 28 years, but something like this, I was like, alright, the, you know, the world has to know. So, it just totally changed my business. And the good thing was I took all the good stuff with me that I had been doing over the years, added this to it, and it just, it just blew up. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah. You know, we want to know what those discoveries were, of course, and you can enlighten us, but I want to say that I’m very, very proud of you. You know, I, I know you went through a very hard time, and even when you just said that to me now, you know, like this is about betrayal and sort of getting stabbed in the back, you know? And, and I’m like, well, yeah, that’s happened to me. But it’s not a pleasant subject ordinarily. But I think as health coaches, as professionals, we gotta be ready to take on all commerce, so to speak. I mean, you don’t have to, but I think it’s just such an incredibly important thing. So, you did a study when you were, part of your PhD program, right? And tell us about the people involved and then, and then what were these discoveries? How did it, not only what were they, but how did they come about? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah, sure. And you know, it’s so interesting. I would venture to say that the majority, and I’m not saying just some, I’m saying the, probably the majority of clients coming to, to see health coaches, especially FDNs there’s an unhealed betrayal at the root of it. Because think about this, you know, and, and really I look at it like, I mean, besides maybe death of a child, I think betrayal is one of the most painful of the human experiences. You know, we were never betrayed by people we don’t know. These are the people we’re closest to. So, when the people closest to us prove untrustworthy, who do we trust? When the ones we run to, when other people are causing harm, are the ones causing the harm? Where do we go? And in my case, it was, first it was a family betrayal. And you know, these are the people that you lean on, that you count on. 

And I thought I healed from that. And then it was my husband. And, you know, rebuilding whether whatever you choose, you can, and I’ve proven it. You can rebuild from betrayal, whether you rebuild and move on. That’s what I did with my family. Or you rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. And that’s what I did with my husband. So, not only am I coming at this from studying it, you know, at the PhD level and doing the study on it, but living it and moving through it from that place of forgiving and moving on, from the place of reconciliation. So yeah, so, so very different. And, and what was so interesting was, I had these study participants and I, I chose to do the kind of study where it wasn’t just you walking around with a clipboard and you, you sort of have people check off, you know, a thousand questions. 

This was a really deep dive. And it was qualitative over quantitative, so smaller pool, much deeper because I wanted to know the lived experience, like what was life like beforehand? What happened to them? What did it lead to and what did it lead to physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually? And that’s why we got so much great information. And so I’ll tell you this, the discoveries, the first was, and then I’ll tell you what it led to. The first was that healing from betrayal is really different than healing from other life crises. Death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster. Like I had been through death of a loved one. I had peritonitis, I was in ICU for 11 days, you know, I know disease. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah, and that was, that’s, it’s a miracle I’m alive. But this felt different. And so, I asked my study participants and I said, if you’ve been through something other than betrayal, does it feel different for you? Unanimously they said, it feels so different because betrayal is an attack to the self. You know, if you lose someone you love, you don’t question their love, you miss them, you mourn the loss. But with betrayal, you question your sanity, you question all of it. You know, you’re dealing with rejection, abandonment, confidence, worthiness, trust, belonging. That all has to be rebuilt. So, it needed its own name, that type of healing. You know, so, so I originally, originally I was studying posttraumatic growth, but I was like, this isn’t just posttraumatic growth. This is posttraumatic growth, plus rebuilding yourself equals post betrayal transformation. So, healing from betrayal is now called post betrayal transformation. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yes. Fascinating. And I know you worked really, really hard. And again, I don’t know why this is very funny to be, but we always say health coaches are supposed to walk the talk. You know, that doesn’t mean go get betrayed or betray someone. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

No. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Maybe the one thing, the one thing we could sort of do without. You know, like as far as living and walking the talk goes, you know, like this one you could spare me, Lord. You know, like. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. Yeah. And I would have liked to be spared myself, but I’ll tell you when you, when you come out of it, I don’t know if there’s anyone stronger because of what we do with it. So, that was the, that was the first discovery. The second this was, this was crazy and this was that whether we stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and many of us do, if we’re going to heal, we will move through five stages. And what’s even more exciting is now we know physically, mentally, and emotionally what happens at every stage and we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. So, all that means is now healing isn’t just hopeful or possible, it’s predictable. So, I can look at someone, I can talk to them and know exactly what stage they’re in and know what they need to do to systematically move to the next, the next, the next, the next year. So, that’s really exciting. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Well, are you going to tell… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

And then… 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

I was going to say, so the first one was that it’s different. The second one is that there’s five stages of this thing and you can tell where people are at. And third one? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

A hundred percent, yeah. And then the third discovery was, you know, we’ve been taught time heals all wounds. It’s not true. Not when it comes to betrayal. There’s a collection of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional. So, common to betrayal. It’s now called post betrayal syndrome. And you know, we have a quiz and assessment on the site to see to what extent people are struggling. And here’s the thing, there’s a question that reads, is there anything else you’d like to share? And besides hearing about the physical, mental, emotional symptoms left in the wake of this type of trauma, people write things like, my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can’t trust again. My betrayal happened 35 years ago, I’m unwilling to go into another relationship. My betrayal happened 15 years ago, I feel gutted. And we know that it affects every area of life and it only heals when we face it, feel it, heal it. And I’ll show you how everybody can know if an unhealed betrayal is affecting them, you ready? In relationships… 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Well I want to ask you a question first. So, the third thing is kind of like time doesn’t really heal this. You have to know how to address it. And… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

The third, yeah, the third is called is, is that there is this post betrayal syndrome and it’s real. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

And then when they’re stuck like that, are they in one of the five stages then, or you’re going to talk about that. Okay. Alright, I’m with you. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. Yeah. So, they’re, they’re still struggling in some way physically, mentally, emotionally. And I can even go through some of the symptoms, but you know, you see it in relationships. So, you’ll see it where, one of two ways. Someone puts that big wall up, we’re like, nope, you’re not getting close to me again. It’s, you know, and sure they’re keeping out the bad guys, but they’re keeping out the good guys too. And when I say betrayal, I don’t just mean, you know, we think romantic. No, it’s family, it’s friends, it’s coworker. It could be just someone you trusted, that coach or mentor, you know, someone who violated their role, whatever it is. And we see it also when someone has repeat betrayals, the face has changed but it’s the same thing, you know. So, here’s where they haven’t learned the profound lesson that betrayal was there to teach. Like in my scenario, it was, I had my first betrayal, I thought I learned, and then there was that second one. And here’s how, you know, the lesson was learned. I did something radically different. It was always about boundaries getting crossed and not putting my own needs seriously or whatever. And look at one of the first things I did was like, no way. And you get furious, you get angry, you make different types of decisions. 

And here I made such a different decision. I mean at 50 to go back for a PhD. And that was crazy, you know, and I knew it was nuts and I knew how hard it was going to be, but that’s what led to all of this. So, unless you do something different, nothing different happens. So, the best you can hope for is, you know, the more of the same. We see it in, in, in health too, where someone goes to the most well-meaning doctors, coaches, healers, therapists, to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. At the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. And we see it at work, two ways. Someone wants to be a team player, but they’re so afraid. The person they trusted the most proved untrustworthy. So, they can’t trust that boss or coworker. They can’t be a part of that collaborative group that they want to or they want to ask for that raise or promotion, but their confidence was shattered so they don’t have the confidence to ask. They’re bitter and resentful instead. And that’s the energy they’re bringing to work with them every day. So, it affects every area of life. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

It’s amazing really. How when you mentioned the repeated betrayal, you know, and how does that work? I just, the other day I was talking to my neighbor and he was kind of just complaining about how his brother screwed him over. You know, I said, well, that really sucks your brother. That must really feel bad. You know, like he goes, he goes, oh, he’s done it lots of times, three other times, his brother. I go, well, you know, like, like there’s a problem here and it’s probably not just your brother. You know, like we gotta work on you, man. You know, and so that it, but it happens, right? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

It happens until, and unless we learn that profound lesson and when we do, we’re different. You know what happens, and I see this also, this is we tend to get stuck in, it’s a state, out of the five stages. It’s a stage three and I see it all the time. That’s where most people live. And it’s, once we figured out how to 

survive our experience, we feel like that’s as good as it’s getting. So, now nothing’s changed. We’ve survived it, but we’re really not doing anything radically different. So, our mind is still the same. Our thoughts are still the same. Our behaviors are still pretty much the same, except maybe we have a big wall up. That’s it. But that doesn’t mean we’ve healed. We just, we just put a guard up, but we did not heal it. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

So, what’s the, how do you get to that transformation part or you know… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Well, the first thing is, yeah, you need to know where you are. Because a lot of times, I mean I’ll just mention the word betrayal and it throws people off. They don’t even realize that that’s what this is. Like for example, there was someone who interviewed me awhile back and he said, you know, Debi, I really haven’t experienced a betrayal. I’m like, you know what, that’s fine. And then as we were talking, all of a sudden he said, oh my gosh, he goes, you know, he goes, when I was, my brother used to always break my toys. He used to always just take my stuff and break it. And I got this great toy and he said, can I play with it? And I said, no, because you’re going to break it. And he convinced me and I gave it to him. You know, a minute later he breaks the toy. He goes, do you know I’m 36 and I don’t let anybody touch my stuff. Here it is, right. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah, I get it. We let it happen. So, so he’s stuck in a stage. Go through the stages for us. Tell us what the stages are. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Sure. So, the first is like a, this is like a setup stage. And, and this is just what I saw with every single study participant, me included. If you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs are physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental and kind of neglecting the emotional and the spiritual. So, what does that mean? It means we’re really good at thinking and doing, and we’re not really paying much attention to the feeling and being. Now when it comes to betrayal, here’s the problem. Our intuition is in the feeling, being part. And we turned down our intuition because every study participant was like, huh, you know, I thought something didn’t seem right, something felt off, but I didn’t really pay attention to it. 

But if you imagine a table with only two legs strengthened, easy for that table to topple over. So, that’s sort of the setup. That’s not to say if you’re busy, you’re going to be betrayed. It’s just what I saw with everybody. Stage two by far, hands down the scariest stage. Here’s the breakdown of the body, the mind, the worldview. You’ve been rocked. This is D day, discovery day. Here’s where seriously, it’s like the person you thought you knew so well takes a mask off and you’re like, what? You had no idea. So the, the body starts to break down and, and you know this, you know, you’ve ignited the stress response. You’re headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around the information you just learned. And your worldview is shattered. 

It’s your mental model. This person is safe. These are the rules. And in an, in an instant, everything you know has been shattered. So, here’s truly where the bottom bottom’s out on you. And it’s terrifying because a new bottom hasn’t been constructed yet. You know, one of my study participants said, you know what it feels like? It feels like every negative emotion you can experience getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd at the same time. It feels like that. But think, you know, but if the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You would grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that stage three, survival instincts emerge. 

It’s a very practical stage. If you can’t help me, get out of my way, how will I survive this experience? Where will I live? Who can I trust? How do I feed myself? I mean it really, entirely practical, but once we figure that out, we stay there. This is a very common place to get stuck because then, and I want every, I would love it if everybody really just checks themselves right here. You start getting these small self benefits from being here like this. You get to be right. It feels good to be right. You get someone to blame. You get a, you know, you get a lot of sympathy from other people. You get pity, right. You get a story and we love our story. You get to justify not doing something. I can’t do that, look what I’ve been through. You don’t have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. Do I trust you, do I trust you, oh forget it I just won’t trust anybody. 

And then we start planting roots in this space and then think about it, you know like energy attracts like energy. Now we feel like we belong there and then we start convincing ourselves, well maybe we deserved it, maybe, maybe, maybe, you know, and now we’re stuck and now it gets harder to leave. If we’re willing, willingness is a huge word right here. If we’re willing to let go of all of those benefits, if we’re willing to grieve the loss because we have to grieve what no longer will be, right. And then a few other things, we can move to stage four. Stage four is adjusting, finding and adjusting to a new normal. Your old normal doesn’t exist. It’s no longer an option. So, here’s where it’s like if you’ve ever moved to a new house, condo, office, apartment, whatever, you know your stuff isn’t there yet. 

It’s not quite cozy, but it’s going to be okay. You’re kind of turning down your stress response a little bit. You’re not healing just yet, but you’re not destroying your body the way you were. But here’s what was so interesting about this stage two, if you were to move from one place to the next, think about it. You 

wouldn’t necessarily bring everything with you, right? Things that don’t represent who you want to be in that new space don’t come along with you. And I saw so many relationships change here. Friendships change here. If your friends weren’t there for you when you needed them, you don’t bring them with you. If, if your friends had like, you know, they were gossiping or judging, whatever it was, that you now have outgrown, you don’t have the tolerance for it right here. So, a lot of friendships change in this stage, but you, so you settle into this stage. 

You make it your own and once you feel comfortable here, you’re feeling good about it. You’re like, okay, I can, I can do this. I can make this work. You can slowly move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. Here your body starts to heal. You turn down the stress response. You didn’t have the bandwidth to eat well, exercise. You weren’t thinking about that. You were thinking about survival. Now you do. Now you have the bandwidth. You want to nurture yourself. You want to take care of yourself. Your mind, you, you, you now have a new set of beliefs, boundaries, rules based on what you’ve been through and you have a new worldview based on how you see the world because of the road you’ve just been on and the four legs of that table, remember in the beginning we were only focused on the physical and the mental. Now we’re solidly grounded because we’re paying attention to the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

That’s remarkable, you know, and just as you’re speaking, you know, I’m really, really listening and I see a lot of similarities in life, you know, health coaching, you know, and, and things that we might come across, especially stage three where the person gets a benefit from that condition that they don’t want. So, unwanted conditions. If I say, well, what’s your main complaint? Well, I’m overweight, my, my digestive system, I’ve got fibromyalgia, you know, or something like that. And then you find out all these reasons why they don’t want to change, really. Cause it just is totally working for them. You know, it’s like they don’t really have to work full time. They, you know, they get to not make dinner when they don’t feel, you know, whatever it is that they did. And it’s really an interesting thing I guess about healing that even applies to something like betrayal, which is a hell of a thing to heal from, you know, so you’re saying that if, if you don’t, you know, the mental and physical, yeah. 

You know, we all kinda know to have a positive attitude and work on our bodies and things like that. But if you don’t deal with the emotional, the grief, the other things you said about losing and the anger maybe or whatever, if you, if you don’t process that thoroughly, which takes, I think the spiritual goes along with it. You know, having a sense of purpose and in reality, connecting to the source is kind of what I call it, but, which is where the power comes from I think. But then you can never trust again or something, you’re saying like that’s, cause when you were talking about five, I go where, where’s the trust come in? You know, how do you get that back, you know? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. I love that you said there are so many things I would, so many roads I’d love to go down with what you just said. First of all, the physical is so real. It’s so real. And it’s interesting because digestive complaints are one of the most common things we see. And here’s what’s so interesting and I’ll talk about trust too. And my book that’s coming out is called Trust Again. So, I have a four step trust rebuilding process and, and, and I can, we can talk about that too. But here’s what’s so interesting when you think about digestive issues, well first of all, think about the benefits. Yes. If someone, you know, is, is getting a lot of sympathy or they don’t have to show up the same way, they get, almost like they get a pass, they could definitely use that in their favor and it becomes their identity. 

And here’s the thing, if that’s become our identity, it’s not just, it isn’t just something where we’re dealing with, it becomes our identity. We don’t let it go because we don’t want to be without an identity. So, you know, what we need to do is figure out who would we be without it. Because if we can’t imagine that, that symptom, that challenge, that story is going nowhere. But, you know, even just with digestive issues, this is what’s so interesting when you think about what the digestive system does. It digests, it, absorbs it processes, isn’t it really difficult to absorb, digest and process a betrayal. So, is it any wonder. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

It’s a hard thing to swallow. It doesn’t even get to the digestive system. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

That’s it, right? Yeah. Should have put that in the book! So, when you think about it, it’s so easy to see how the body is just really reflecting what the, you know, what the emotions, what the mind, what the heart’s going through. So, it makes total and complete sense. And the weight, you know, is such a common symptom too. Whether it’s severe weight changes in either direction in the beginning, you know, you can’t hold down food and then maybe as a way to protect yourself, you put the weight on. Whereas you know, you’re emotionally eating your way to, as a way to self soothe. You know, when we’re young, we hide behind mom’s leg, right. When we’re older the weight can provide the same protection. So, so many different reasons why that, the, the issues, the symptoms benefit us. I mean, it’s so, it’s so huge. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Well, I’ll just throw in there, the addictive behaviors. You know, you talk about the soothing eating and what about, you know, this or this, you know, these different things that are. They’re self medicating. This is what people do when they’re in any kind of pain, you know, or something’s not normal. They grab, they reach for stuff and… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

And I’ll tell you, there were three groups in the study that didn’t heal. That was one of the groups. It was the ones that were numbing, avoiding, distracting, something that’s too hard to face or feel. And if they were using things like food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, reckless behavior. You know what it’s like. Remember when, when we were kids and if someone said something we didn’t want to hear, we would stick our fingers in our ears and we’d say, la-la-la I don’t hear you, right. When we do those things, it’s like the adult version of that same game. It’s like, I don’t want to hear you, you know. And that’s, and that’s what we’re doing and it’s, it’s really the same thing. But those are all just, they’re self soothing techniques because this is so painful to face, but I’m going to give you an analogy because this is going to show you exactly how this works. 

Everybody has, most people, I shouldn’t say everybody, a messy room, drawer, let’s take a garage, you know. And you think it’s not vying for your attention, but it is, and you do all you can to avoid it. And you think, well, no, no, no. It’s okay. No, it’s not. You do everything you can to avoid it. Then there’s that one day you’re like, you know what I’m going in and think about what happens. You bring in your garbage bags and it actually looks a lot worse at first because you’re like, I’m going to donate this. I’m going to toss that. I’m going to get rid of this. And it’s a mess. 

There’s no turning back, right? And then you donate, you toss, you fix whatever you have to do and you put back what’s left and think about what happens now. Now you stand back with pride and now you can enjoy the space because you’ve earned it. And the only reason why you could feel good about it is because you dove in and did the work. That’s what healing from betrayal involves. And using those things like food, drugs, alcohol, whatever is like just avoiding it. And it doesn’t go away. But when you dive in and do the work, you stand back with pride and you’re like, look what I’ve been through. You know, look what I did. It’s just sort of, it’s just a great feeling. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

You know, if you’re going to overdo it on food jokes and alcohol, you, you better have a good reason. That’s what I always say. And, I’m so kidding. But, so when, but now for everything you’ve said makes so much sense. And I don’t imagine any listener could argue with it. You know, it’s like, wow, that really makes sense. And they would want to look at their own lives and see if there’s something that they’re holding onto. They’re there, they’re stuck in a stage or they’re doing that, you know, self-medicating or something because does betrayal play a part in it. But speaking just to health coaches now, how do they, why do they need to know this? And you know, how do you sort that out that they might be dealing with someone with an undiscovered or is there such a thing as an unknown betrayal syndrome or what? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

When they, you know, people just bury it. They, they just don’t, they, they assume because it happened a long time ago. It’s, they’re not carrying it with them, but it’s not like that at all. It follows you around like a shadow. So, that’s why it’s and, and we actually, some of your health coaches Reed, have become, have become certified because they see the majority, or at least I’d say at a minimum, 50% of their clients are struggling with health-related symptoms, illness, condition, illnesses, conditions, disease because of an unhealed betrayal. So, it just, it just makes such sense. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

It really does. You know, I mean, when we look at, you know, cause I teach all the stress model. I read in 2001 what got me really into the idea of stress is related to all, was an article written, it said 50% of all disease is caused by stress, 80% of all doctor’s visits could be related to something stressful. And I thought, well, I better study stress if I’m going to help people because it’s such a, it’s ubiquitous. And so, we got into all the various types, you know. I’ve kind of specialized in the environmental stress cause that was my background before with the, you know, the chemicals, and the biotoxins, the, you know, the things your body makes that are toxic, that it might not be able to get rid of the things. And of course I worked in a chiropractic office, so about the physical, the, the pressure on nerves, you know, from musculoskeletal issues, and imbalances, and weakness, and things like that. But the idea of mental, emotional was never my specialty because I just kind of wake up happy every day. And I think people with emotional problems are like, they must be crazy. 

But I realized now that’s immature and you know, not it’s, you know, I’m a bit of a Pollyanna, you know. So, so I’m gonna really, you know, emphasize that a bit, that, you know, there’s so many things to look at there and one of them could be betrayal and we’re already referring to your course of course. And, but we gotta get you on to do it with the gang to do some more, a little bit more of this what to look for. Can you share with the audience now what that might look like? What, like what are we looking for as health coaches? Are there tips or do you just flat out ask them? You know, do you just say, have you ever been betrayed, or? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Are you talking about the physical symptoms that people would be walking around with or physical, mental, emotional… 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

People come to us because they have health complaints. Usually it’s something about the way they look or the way they feel. I feel crappy. I’m tired, I’m fatigued or I’m overweight, I got bad skin or you know, it’s something about the way they look or feel. Now we know not to just address that immediate thing. You can take pills, you can, there’s lots of ways you can patch them up and that’s not our backyard. Our backyard is looking deeper. Finding out what the underlying causes, and conditions, and experiences have been. So, what can a health coach, I’m trying to get to where they, they might be able to spot something and go, oh yeah, now they’re either gonna if they do spot it, they’re going to refer out to one of your trained people or maybe desire to become one of your trained people. What are some of those things that you would, do you just put it on your questionnaire? Have you ever been betrayed or, you know, is it more like there’s something, some little common pattern that you see? Like people just don’t get better? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. It shows itself so differently and it manifests so differently in different people. Some will, you’ll see it in their habits. So like, like someone who is numbing, avoiding distracting. Why are they doing that? There’s always a reason, you know, so it could be, it could show up in that way. It could show up because you know, here they are carrying around the extra weight. They have a digestive issue, they have, you know, they’re just angry. They’re, they’re blaming other people for like, or, or just for the types of relationships they have. So, it’s, so, it really is so widespread. It’s such a, that’s what’s so interesting about this whole topic. It’s gigantic, but it seems so niched betrayal, but it affects so many different things. So, some, you know, somebody can come in to or, or just, you know, somebody could be meeting with someone by phone or zoom and really just within a series of questions. 

And I, I wouldn’t suggest someone who isn’t trained really going down that road. I mean, that’s exactly what the training does. But what they’ll find is if they trace back where that stress came from, like where it really came from, what, you know, why did they start eating that led to the weight? Why did they start, you know, drinking that led to the drinking issue? Why do they have that digestive issue? When did it start? You know, this is through a series of questioning and it’s always, if you trace it all the way, you trace it back to where it originated and you get people talking. And I also, you know, I love meeting people by, by zoom because then I’m looking at them. You know, the phone believes out an element that is, that really doesn’t capture it. I mean, yes, I’m paying attention to tone of voice, but when you see someone and you see how what you said, just hit a nerve and then it depends on the style of coach you are, you know, I’m always, I’m looking for that and then I go right for it. 

You know, where it’s like what just happened right there. And they’ll say, what do you mean? No, no, no. When I asked you that, your face changed, you know, you look different. What happened? What’d you, what, what did you just, was it a memory was an experience, you know, so it’s, it’s a different line of questioning and everybody has their own style. You know, it’s interesting, I’m a psychologist, but I’m a coach first. And for me, I want to know what that story is so we can, we can do something with it and that person can heal. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah. It’s really, it’s just so fascinating. Well, I, I, you know, I really think that it’d be a fantastic certification, you know. I’d like say if I was a health coach that’s what I would do. And you know, I am. So, tell us a little bit more, I’ve got a couple more questions for you. There’s no tricks, but I got a couple things to ask you about because of the purpose of this. I don’t just want people to be exposed to a lot of different courses. I want them to, I want to really uplift health coaching. I’m trying to make it the number one choice for people who have something about the way they look or the way they feel, you know, as long as they don’t have a medical condition. If there’s something about the way you look or the way you feel that you want to change and you’re willing to change it, get in touch with a really good professional, you know, interview a couple, hire a professional health coach. And so, we’ll get to a couple of questions like that, but just a little bit about your course. Like we’re going to put some links in the show notes and things like that so they can go and take a look. But like how much time does it take? Is it modules, is it, is it all classroom time or is it recorded? You know, like, just tell us a little bit about it. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Sure. Well we, we’ve, we’ve changed because we’re opening up this amazing membership community. So, what the, what the training involves is, we walk you through the Betrayal to Breakthrough Program as first of all, to clean up any of your own betrayals. And, you’re, you’re, this way, you’re accessing it from a member perspective and it’s six, seven modules, half hour each. And then, and then it’s the, the, the coach slash practitioner modules, which is the same, we’re walking you through the five stages, but this time as the coach or practitioner with all of the assessments and all the handouts and everything that you’re welcome just to use on your own. Then a quiz and then a case study conversation with me. Once someone’s certified, I mean, yes, they’re welcome to, what we’ve, they’ve been doing is using it within their existing practices. 

When our membership community opens, what we’re doing is members, two levels of membership, but our upgraded members, well everybody has access to daily classes. Like if you were to go to gym fitness studio classes running all day, those are taught by our certified coaches. And the reason is, so we can showcase them and there’s exclusivity per category, niche specialty modality. So, let’s say an FDN comes in and they specialize also in one specific area. It’s off the table for the other ones. 

And I want that. So, this way when there’s, we have a resource directory when someone is looking, because the other thing is members get as part of their membership, one session a month with a coach and we pay for those visits. we want them to just differentiate themselves so that people could say, oh, I loved that coaches class and I love what they taught. I really want to work with them and, and we pay, like I said, we pay for those sessions and then if they want to work with them additionally, that’s fine. It’s just goes through our portal and we want coaches to blow up their businesses. So, if they don’t like marketing, I mean my job is to fill the membership. They are, they’re the ones who are going to be teaching the classes and seeing the members. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

That’s amazing. Yeah, I really like that you make your people walk the talk. You know, that’s something that obviously that we do in the FDN course. Everyone has to run the labs and face the truth and you know, get to get to cracking on that stuff. You can’t be a slacker and be a health coach, in my opinion. So, on that topic, what, I want to ask you a couple of questions just about, you know, raising the bar on health coaching. It’s fine if someone wants to take my course or your course I’m sure to work on themselves and maybe their family and I would call them a hobbyist, you know, but hobbies cost you money. Like mine I know cost me money, motorcycling and gardening and I, I just love to go spend money at, at the nursery, you know, on new plants and things and it doesn’t really matter how much, but hobbies cost you money, professions, they make you money. So, speaking out of this as a profession and kind of thing, you know, where we want to, we want to raise it up and have it be a, where you can make a really good living doing it. What do you think we should be doing as course, you know, owners or founders to do that, to raise that bar, to provide the leadership in the health coaching world? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah, that’s such a great question. Really, I have a few answers for that. I really think that you have to be the role model. I mean, you’ve said this, you have to walk your walk, talk your talk. I mean, and not everybody who’s, who’s become certified through through my program, not everybody has to be betrayed, but you at the very least have to understand it deeply. So, maybe you, maybe you were the betrayer, maybe you, your best friend was betrayed on some level you have to understand it and then you have to be that role model. You know, I think it’s really important too, there’s no one size fits all here. And, and I think any good health coach understands that someone’s, let’s just take a weight issue. You know, one person may have a weight issue as a, as a way to protect themselves. 

While the other has a weight issue because if they lose that weight, they’re going to have to face the fact that, that they’re not in love with their partner anymore. You know what I mean? There’s so many different things. So, you have to understand that there’s no one size fits all. And then as far as the difference between a hobby and a business, I mean, you know, it’s so interesting because I hear people say, oh, it’s so great, I work from home, I’m in my pajamas and I’m thinking, why are you doing that for? You know, like 9:00 AM whatever your hours are, dressed, ready, makeup, showered, whatever, show up, you know, be the, be the role. And, and on those days, I mean that I’m not even talking to anybody and I’m just in my office by myself. I treat it like a business. 

And, and also in, depending on how you want to run it, but block your time, schedule your days. So, maybe you have a Monday, Wednesday and Friday are client days and maybe Tuesday and Thursday are content and marketing days. You know, whatever structure works for you. Or if you’re doing this around raising your family and, and I get it, I mean, I have four kids. So, how do you do this where you’re, you’re making the most use of your time and be so careful that you’re not just busy, you know that you’re productive. Huge difference. So, I would say take a look at how you’re treating it. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

I think that huge, yeah. And then as far as standard practices, this is a bit of an odd question because we’re developing like a code of ethics that coaches should have and kind of like, kind of like real estate agents, you know, they have, they’re highly regulated, so there’s laws but they have their own code of ethics and some of it is just their behavior being professional and on time. If you notice real estate agents always look good, they always have the shiny new car. I know your husband’s a real estate agent, so, so, you know, like you get it, you know, you, you look pretty darn good. I think health coaches could learn a little lesson from that sometimes and keep their standards up high, like you and you know, you look great and, and keep yourself in shape, walking the talk is real important. Well, any others, you know, standard things that would dignify the coach, the field of health coaching? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. I think most importantly is, is really living it. You know, I remember years ago when I was a personal trainer and nutritionist and there were days I didn’t want to work out, you know, I didn’t want to eat well. It would have been, you know, much easier not to. And it’s so interesting because knowing that I had to show up, it, it kept me doing the work. And it’s so interesting because we find that a lot of people are becoming certified in my certification. It’s almost like a hack. It’s like, it’s forcing them to do their own work, taking care of their betrayals. They can’t afford to just slip down that slippery, painful slope because they’re showing up for clients. So, there’s something about being a health coach and, and knowing, you know, people are looking to you assuming that you have your health together to the best of your ability. 

And that’s why you’re doing this work and you’re representing the work, you know, and it’s, and I see it in with the, you know, the PBT post betrayal transformation coaches that, you know, of course we’re human and we’re, we, you know, we have ups and downs, like everybody, but we’re forced to do the work. So, we don’t ever have to worry about that fraud complex, you know, everybody worries about, oh, they’re gonna find out I’m a fraud. Like I never want to have to think about that. So, it’s just easier if you live it. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yup. Yeah. There’s a word for that fraud thing, what is it? It’s a, it’s like a… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Impostor syndrome. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Impostor syndrome, yeah. There’s one for you. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

So, and anything else that separates a professional from the, from the hobbyist in your mind? You know, I’m thinking of things like fees, being businesslike, not being afraid to charge, things like that. What else would you add to that, if anything? Or talk about that? How do you, you know… 

Dr. Debi Silber 

You know, that’s huge. And I would say, and I remember, you know, I’ve been in business a long time and it’s interesting because so much of my income had to do with my level of confidence. And it’s huge. And when you, when you’re charging, something to the point where you’re getting resentful, you know, you have to take a look at that. And I look at it saying, you know, it’s, it’s a great measure. When I, when I see, well, I’ll look at what other people are charging. It’s not to just compare, but it’s just to get a sense of where’s almost like, where’s my head? You know, where, what, where, you know, and what I’ll do is if I’m creating a program, let’s say, and let’s say I’m uncomfortable with the price, I will pack it with so much value until I say out loud, they’ve got to be crazy not to do this. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah, good one. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

And that’s my measure. So, so I would say take a look at your fees, take a look at also your expenses. You know, I mean, I’m like a personal development junkie, so I’m like, how you, you like motorcycles and plants. I like personal development. So, there’s a new program, I’m like shaking, like I can’t wait to get it, but, but take a look at what you’re spending your money on and, and you know, what would better, what would be, what would serve you better? You know, how, how can you help your business grow? What support do you need? And I know because we can do it all we do. But that doesn’t mean that’s in our best interest because let’s say we, we hired a VA a couple hours a week even, if that let us, do more marketing or get out there more or be on more podcasts or whatever, that’s time well spent. 

So, I would say take a look at where your time is being spent. Take a look at where your money’s being spent and, and like be a little more ruthless with what you say yes to. You know, I have this thing too. It’s, it’s yes and no confusion. And I think that we say yes to things that pull us away from what we could, what we’d benefit from doing. And because we do that, we say no to the things that bring us joy, passion and purpose. That’s yes and no confusion. So, I would say get your yes’s and no’s straight too. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Yeah, for sure. You know, you’re just a fun person to talk to Debi. And yeah, and to learn from. And I know you’re a great teacher and I highly recommend your course and your certification for health coaches. Last thing, is there any particular type of health coach or is it for, you know, is it a specialist or what? 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Yeah, we have two we divided up into the PBT post betrayal transformation coach certification. You can become a PBT certified coach or certified practitioner. A coach or a healer is on the coach track and a practitioner is the therapist, doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist. It’s the same exact training. It’s just a different logo we give you when you’re done and, and you know, a little bit of a difference in how much we pay. But the training is the same because whether you’re a coach or a therapist, you don’t have this training. You don’t know the five stages, you don’t know what physically, mentally, emotionally happens at every stage. So, training is exactly the same. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Beautiful. Well, thanks so much. You’ve made this a better event. Just your mere presence here and the fact I have you on, I couldn’t possibly have an event without you Debi. You’re one of my faves, one my faves. And so, yeah, we’re going to conclude and I want to tell the listeners to, that Debi’s notes and links and things will be in the show notes. And so is the purchase button for this event. You want to buy these recordings and get them now because once we’re off the air, you won’t be able to get them anymore. So, thanks so much again, Debi. We’ll be talking again real soon. I’m sure. 

Dr. Debi Silber 

Thanks so much, Reed. 

Reed Davis, HHP, FDN-P, CMTA, CNT

Alright you take care. Bye-Bye.