Stimulating the Body to Heal Itself Emotionally

Introduction to Deb Sandberg 0:00

I think you are going to love our next guest. His name is Deb Sandberg and he's a bio energy therapist, and we've just been having the most interesting chat prior to us actually hitting record here. His work is something that I've been fascinated with. Someone recommended it to me. I got his book. I've been doing some of the exercises. Also has a YouTube channel that we'll talk about later today, but sitting at my zoom or even standing at my zoom, which I'm doing right now, I'm on so many zooms this past year, and I was finding my mind, neck and shoulders were cramping up and he had some great exercises or almost therapy therapy that he he showed on a YouTube channel that I was able to use, and it just made everything feel so great.

So what? Deb, welcome. I think, you have so much to add to people today. I really appreciate you being on. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Tom, thank you so much for inviting me. So beautiful. Yeah. So we're going to we're going to get into bioenergetics and and some different things that people can learn about that and maybe even a couple of exercises they can do. Maybe you can even show us a couple things. But I want to go back to what we were talking about earlier. This isn't something that you learned when you were ten years old.

As a matter of fact, your early life was very different from what you're doing now. So tell us, tell us just, you know, in a couple minutes about your journey to discovering the power of bio bioenergetics. How did that come about? Well, I mean, you know, I was born in the early 60s and, in the UK, and, I was adopted, kid. I was mixed race. I, there was a lot of bad stuff going on in the family. I was in hospital quite a lot and died a few times. I was in for, for very traumatized background, basically just just high levels of, of trauma and, you know, really what happened was, when I left school, I mean, I just dropped out pretty quick.

I had a job for a couple of years, and I just dropped out. I kind of lived at street level, you know, squatting. I was involved in crime and dodgy things and was just

From Trauma and Addiction to Therapy 2:26

generally a kind of ne'er do well waster, very low self-esteem, heavily reliant on alcohol into a limited degree of drugs. And at some point in my 30s, I straightened up a little bit for a while and kind of got a job in construction and this kind of thing, and, and trained a little bit as an electrician. And it wasn't really until my late 30s, but it's in some way I just became clear to me inside, that I wasn't happy, but I totally wasn't happy. And, if I was like a little baby just being born, I would not have chosen this.

I was not chosen to to to be like this, you know? And, it wasn't like I was weeping and in a lot of feelings. It was just a very clear kind of realization. It was so clear. I just knew I have to change. I have to change. So I kind of had the idea what I need to do is therapy and I'd had this idea somewhere in the back of my mind, like, my whole life has been a mess and all I've done is avoid things and one day I'm going to have to deal with it. But for now, I'm not going to deal with it. And I just thought, okay, now I have to start to, to, to deal with my past and to, and to get help and to get support and to see.

And so I was back in London and I was looking around for therapists, and I didn't know anything about therapy at all. And, I started to go to do some group therapy with a chap in Old Street, which is a little bit of, east central London. And that was pretty good. And I met some kind of different people who, are a bit more open and a bit different from my kind of druggy criminal friends and stuff, and that was nice, but I kind of had a feeling like it's not really going to reach me, you know, it's going to take a long, long, but I'm I've come from this very hardened background where I closed myself off.

I have a lot of defenses from my body, whatever, and just my mind. And you know, I need something a bit more kind of kind of strong. And so I started looking around again, and I got a bit of a connection to the, the Osho people who, you know, Osho was a mystic from the 70s and 80s, very controversial character. And, but one of the things that happened around him was a lot of, a lot of therapists who are interested in changing world or, you know, various stuff came together on the show and then that energy was also there was a kind of energy round there where, you know, if you wanted to be part of the gang geniuses.

They called them, you know, you had to do a lot of therapy, and you had to really look at yourself and, you know, you had to go on this kind of deep journey. So it was like there was this whole different sort of stratum of peer pressure going on with this thing, and I, I got a bit sucked into this, into this thing. And it was also quite cheap, you know, and it was also like, I was kind of desperate to find you out there at the time. And there are a lot of nice women on the groups and stuff. And so I just jumped into the Osho scene and, and at some point I met a chap called Resch who was, an American therapist, black American therapist, and living in Holland running a center.

And when I met this guy, he just seemed so kind of streetwise. He was an ex drug user himself. And I thought, what kind of kid? This guy kind of kid. You, you know, most therapists I can kind of, you know, I can I've got enough I can speak enough stories about all the bad stuff that happened in my childhood. Everybody's going to say, poor baby, you know, they're going to can, you know, but this guy cannot fool this guy. So, you know, I ended up doing a lot of work with him in this institution in, in Holland.

And, and at some point I kind of set out on my own to be a therapist. And, I was also living in offshore center for a long time. And and, yeah, I eventually trained him was was group therapy and with a lot of emotional expression, you know, screaming and shouting and putting it out. Everybody crazy and the feelings and stuff and, and at some point, as I started to, to, to move out of spiritual community and that kind of thing, I, I wanted to get back into the city. I'd lived in London and out of London, us now living in.

I was coming to Brighton, which is nice city in the south of the UK, and I was looking for some therapy that I could teach or give or some way of making money and I realized you kind of screaming and shouting wasn't so popular anymore. I just thought, you know, in an urban environment because people, the cops, you know, from next door, you know. Yeah, I done quite a lot of bioenergetics whilst I was training the terrorist, with some Brazilian guys. And I just thought, I'm going to pick that up and just start learning and teaching more and, and that that developed into me making a YouTube channel about it.

Learning more about you. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's awesome. No, your YouTube channel is amazing. And I love something you said. You said it. At some point I realized that if I was a child born, born into this, I wouldn't have chosen this right, which I think a lot of people have. If they think about, you know, where they are in their lives, sometimes there's certain aspects of their life. They go, hey, wait a minute. What? Why do why am I still accepting this? I wouldn't have asked for this.

I wouldn't have been born into this. So tell us about bio, bioenergetics and and and the power of what it can do for people that are struggling right now, either with something in their body and their mind. Health issue, chronic issues. What is bioenergetics? I just explained, high level what that is to people right now. Yeah. I mean, it was it's a it's a body movement therapy that was developed traditionally really by, well, Vilhelm Reich, who was like, student of Sigmund Freud, famous like a regional psychotherapist back in the early 20th century.

And, Reich in the 20s began to work with,

What Bioenergetics Is 7:54

with clients, by getting that body to move and by changing their breathing patterns and by getting them to pound. And he kind of ended up leading Europe to flee the Nazis and stuff and, and settle in New York in America anyway. And, he picked up American students one of whom was Alexander Logan and Lo, and basically took some of Reich's work, added his own kind of interpretation and called it bioenergetics. So in the West, that's where it's kind of coming from. It's so a lot of there's a lot of it in, in Latin America.

And they would claim different kind of sources of shamanic spiritual sources, kind of thing. So it's one of these things it's not really clear where it came from, but it was low. And Alexander, the one who, who developed the term and all it really is, is putting your body into a certain posture, stress, posture and then, you know, instead of kind of contracting and waiting for it to end, you know, trying to breathe and open and mind feeling your body so it's it's kind of it's kind of simple. It's more useful for psychological stuff and physical stuff in my experience personally.

Okay. So, you know, I mean, and and my, my way, my like my slant on it is quite strongly belly centered. So I'm trying for most clients to bring more awareness into their belly so they can feel their belly more, you know, because once it seems like once you get more feeling in the belly, then then the upper body can start to relax a little bit off to go to the tension or the problem, understandably to try and relax those muscles. But sometimes what we need is just to bring the whole center of gravity lower, you know, so interesting. So you're putting.

Yes. Yeah. Well, and when we, when we work with the psychology because stress is such a huge factor even in the physical illnesses, when you work with the psychology and you're able to release things that you've been holding on to, you tend to heal not just psychologically but also physically. One of the things that an interesting way you have of describing it, you called the body is, is almost like a dumping ground for trauma and unexpressed feelings. Why is that? And how does it show up in people when you call it like the dumping ground of a, you know, trauma and unexpressed feelings like, how does that show up?

Well, I mean, like literally, you know, you look at people's posture, you know, basically. And then he'd look at that kind of personality. So you have body shape, personality. And he mapped that back to classic forms of very early trauma, really. So you have essentially what I mean, what he I was four key kind of trauma types. And one was very early on. I mean the term we use now would dissociation even in the if, if your body if your nervous system which is only developing then registers a feeling of safety, it can seem to be able to direct or when it's out of the body, you know, this is basically dissociation.

And so once that pattern is set up, even the woman in the first years of life, then the person, whenever they feel unsafe, it may not they not may not even be consciously aware of it. You know, they tend to start to dissociate and come up into just a thinking world or an abstract world somewhere, something like that. Another classic one is what he termed the oral loop, which is when you don't have enough connection with your mother in the first year of life. Physical connection, not just affection, energy being given to, you know, because I guess it's mammals.

And if you look at kind of early trial human tribes was a there's a very strong bond for the first year, sometimes a bit longer, between the mother and the child. And I think the expectation of that is kind of written into our genes somewhere. So when, when, when we don't quite get that as a kid growing up for the first year, it tends to leave a trace of a sense of in a lack the almost like no matter what happens, I'm never going to get enough. You know, this is an awful wounding and that that's a strong pattern that the inner world is kind of empty with.

A dissociated inner world is more fearful.

Trauma, Body Patterns, and Embodiment 12:04

The next kind of, thing that can that can manifest is the enduring pattern. When because the next major life event in infancy is when we start to, we get access to the word no, basically around the to, you know, and right prior to that, you know, if our mom wants to go down shops, you just pushing this time shops you know, and we just going along and then H2 suddenly it's like no. And you can scream and shout and protest about it. And of course, little kids need boundaries. But if the parents come down really strong on the child and seek to just completely subjugate that, know that that's that early ego as it's developing, then you create a personality who's going to endure life survival training, who will complain and grumble but will never really step up because you know, you know, they just trying to get through the day and they're in a world filled with angst and anger, which is suppressed.

Yeah. And then you have a rigid personality which is like class one, which really is someone who kind of a little bit later on in infancy, maybe 4 or 5, six, seven just learns from, you know, the parents kind of train them. You get affection when you behave good. You get judgment when you behave bad. You know, in quite a in quite a strong way this training. And so they tend to be very focused on performance, very focused on hierarchical structures and how to move up, and this kind of thing. And they shut off that inner world rigidity, like their body to shut off the inner world feelings because they don't feel safe with feeling.

What's important to them is, is performance, you know, and and you know, it's interesting. I know people are probably listening this going, okay, now I understand why. You know, I'm feeling does everyone have trauma and unexpressed feelings? I mean, is that pretty universal? Yeah. I mean, I mean, in, in modern world, you know, in England we kind of think of trauma. The average person on the street would probably, you know, probably think of trauma. Basically a few people who have something really bad happen to them.

Right there. And when they're a kid or some abuse or something like that. But in reality, most people have quite a high level of this stuff going on. But, you know, we just trying to be functional, you know, and, and the these strategies that I just explained are really just safety strategies. All we're trying to do is stay safe, you know, and and what happens is as, as we develop, probably if we like more animals, we would we would release this trauma from the body's held in the body's attention or dead zone in the muscle system, and we would release it.

But we kind of developed this ego and it's like, well, I'll release it next week or something. And then we just I didn't in denial, you know, and then we just and then we just going through life, you know, so it's like kind of a bug in the human psyche, almost like like the, you know. Yeah, yeah. No. So we, we want to let go, but we tend to want to cling to the past too, right. Yeah. Okay. Good. So, you talk about embodiment. What? Explain what embodiment means. Well, important to me is, like, actually just really inhabiting my body, you know, feeling okay?

Based. Yeah. Maximum. Again, I've been very dissociated in my time, you know, and and and even still doing a lot of therapy, I often get feedback that I'm still out of my body too much, you know, and at some point, you know, I would fight the feedback, of course, but like, at some point I became really interested. How can I occupy my body, you know, how can I be present in my body? Yeah. And how does that relate to healing when you become more present in your body, how does that help you heal? I mean, I think that in many ways, one core of healing is being able to just truly feel your body, you know, and be.

Yeah. And then just present in the moment with someone or present with the situation and the action of slowly coming back in and be occupying. You kind of clear up any stored charge from trauma in the past. And so you still have emotional reactions to anything that's going on around you, but that they're more relevant to what's really happening. Whereas someone who's got a lot of tortured body from the past may overreact or completely under react to a stimuli like, you know, they've got a big charge of anger in the past and their parents squashed them a lot as a little kid emotionally.

And then at work, a very small thing goes on when someone jumps in front of them for a photo of you and they they go into a huge open reaction. But charging aside for all, they do nothing and swallow it all down because there's a fear of the anger. So when you become more present in your body that that is a healing thing. And then, yeah, you have natural emotion what's going on around you. But but that, that they're just, they're relevant and appropriate to, to the moment. Yeah. This is really, really cool stuff.

Like a lot of people don't understand the power of what you're talking about because it's not a gadget you're using on yourself or a pill you're taking, but the ability to come into your body and release this trauma and unexpressed, feelings is so healing. And it frees up energy. I mean, right now when you have this trauma, it's trapping energy. You're not totally free or unexpressed feelings, are there? Trapping energy. It's keeping the healing process, the physical and the mental healing process from from really just working the way that that we we were born to have it work.

Now, something you said is that 99% of people aren't breathing correctly. They, they're breathing in a way that locks them in their past in their bodies. So explain that 99%. That's pretty much everybody. What what are they doing with their breathing or maybe even I'm doing it to potentially what are what are people doing with their breathing that is locking them in the past? Well, when you look at mammals, you know, like other members of our evolutionary past, that's what you notice is kind of they breed with their belly muscles.

Basically. It's like, obviously we don't have lungs down in the belly, but when when you deliberately push your abdomen out, you know, like ballooning it out, which we kind of taught as young people not to do that because it doesn't look cool. But when you do that, it draws the lungs down a bit. And if your throat is relaxed, air will just come in because it's like creating a bit of a vacuum. The air comes in. Then if you relax your abdomen and then compress it a little bit, yeah, it just gets pushed out again.

And so really we should be breathing from the belly. This is how an animal, when it's relaxed will breathe. You can see it. Watch a dog lying on its belly. You just see its belly moving up

Breathing, Stress, and Release 18:38

and down, its breathing from the belly with a relaxed throat. But how most humans have learned to breathe is kind of sucking air in approach and using a lot of what what physiologists call the the, accessory muscles of respiration, like, you know, the, the scalene, sternocleidomastoid muscles around here and the pecs and the trapeze trapezoid, you know, so we're using all those muscles to kind of breathe as well, and really should just be the abdominals. And to be fair, also, the intercostal is around around in between the ribs.

You know, those are muscles that from our lineages as mammals, you know, as primates we should be using to breathe with. But what happens is we're kind of we're in a state of slight anxiety and fear, and we're constantly kind of just almost buzzing with energy, front. No, because we're keeping these muscles a bit tight and tense. We're sucking air in like we don't really trust, primate past to breathe for us. We don't really trust it. And so as a human, you know, we're like, okay, I kind of trust it, but obviously breathing is a massively important moment by moment process.

We try and keep a little bit of control over it unconsciously. So, so the idea of breathing is, you know, a completely unconscious process in most people when, when they're kind of, you know, someone just studies from breathing. And this is this is more mainstream science now actually with, with medical doctors who treat like, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or COPD, you know, asthma, you know, a lot of it is about and and also of some of these, conditions like lung Covid or, or fibromyalgia and, chronic fatigue.

Sometimes getting people to breathe with the belly is very useful to start to reduce the load on the muscles. Yeah. Yeah. She's getting overloaded. Yeah. That's interesting because even as you were talking, I started doing what you were just talking about breathing more. And I, you know, I've always I breathe in my nose and, you know, I've taught myself to do that many years ago and, and, use the belly. But the way you said it was interesting because I still I still as I was noticing way I was breathing, I was kind of still sucking up here, even though my belly was going out.

And then when I just tried using the belly as just the tool to just let air come in, it was awesome. So thank you. That was really, really cool. And I hope a lot more people will do that, right. Because that does create a lot of stress up there. I think that's probably something that that I've been doing, even though I thought I'm breathing right now, I wasn't right. I wasn't letting the belly be the source of just letting air enter. I was still kind of like, you know, breathing it down into the belly, which is stressing up here.

So that was really great, I love it. Let's talk about let's talk about releases that people can do. And what does a release feel like? How long does it take using bioenergetics? You've got such great information in your books on your YouTube channel, exercises like for Neck and Shoulders, I did that one. I also did the one for the face and and, jaw. That was really great. I did that for several days. How long does it take to really. And maybe it varies. I mean, you know, maybe depending upon the trauma or, or how deep the repressed feeling is.

But when people do buy bioenergetics, what does a release feel like? And and how long typically does it take for them to get a nice release? I mean, it's it's it is very variable. As, as you said, it's hard to kind of predict exactly. Some people when they start will get quite a powerful experience. And that that can be that their body goes into some form of spontaneous shaking and later on they just feel lighter, something like that. It can even be a sensation of heat or something like that. It can almost be like almost going into an altered state sometime or something like that.

A strong contraction in the body almost. And it's like the body's kind of spasming itself, you know, and. Other times it's much more subtle and you just feel a bit more open afterwards. Sometimes people burp a lot or something like that. Sometimes it comes out never in the bit. Yeah. And, you know, it's kind of it's kind of hard to put a real figure on it. I guess people get into it probably in realistic terms, have a bit of a release early on, and that motivates them to keep keep going with it, you know, and like I one course I run online these days is a 52 week course and that's a long course, you know, which for most people will go in a couple of years.

And you know, it's a huge roller coaster for people doing it. There'll be phases when you're you're super turned on to it and you're really up for it and you're yeah, I can't wait to do my bio. And other times when your mind is just in total resistance, you complete, you don't want to do it, and you know you've got at least 17 good reasons why you shouldn't continue, you know, and it's just it's it's a challenging process. You know, it's a it's a challenging process. So, you know, over the longer term discipline, developing some level of discipline is definitely part of it and developing some level of kind of, you know, like awareness way where you start to distrust some of your own mind stories is is also useful.

You know, it's but it does vary from person to person. Some people have a huge release and, and you know, and then of course, you try and repeat that and it doesn't always repeat and it's. Yeah. Oh, it's a no. Exactly. Where do people start? Do they start where they're feeling the most tension typically. Or do you have any recommendations on that. And then maybe you can even give us, a little sample of what this might look like, for, you know, maybe neck and shoulders or something like that, just a little bit of a sample.

But where does somebody start with this work? I mean, they can go through your 52 week class. That probably takes them through the whole body, where they can buy your book. If they buy your book, where do they start? Do they pick, like one area of the body that they notice a lot of tension? Or what do you recommend? I mean, you can do I generally recommend people to start with, bone arch postures. Okay. And these days I also recommend them to start with just kind of any breathing thing, which, which feeds into it, you know, which I only really learned properly in the last year, to be honest.

Oh, I assume so. You know, that's what that, that that's what I recommend for people. And then, you know, ideally you don't want to pick and choose too much. Ideally you want to try and create a bit of a format for yourself and then stick to it, you know, create something that's practical for you that you can commit to and try and stick to it over time and just monitor if you know if it's doing good for you. You know, I mean, ideally, what you want to be able to create is more grounding and more openness based.

That's what the main objectives are on a sort of psychological level, so that you you come out of the session, you know, ten minutes later you feel more grounded. Okay. The more I'm connected to the ground and I've got energy. You know, I feel resilient and there's an openness like, you can you can approach people from this kind of I'm okay, you're okay perspective, you know, basics, psychological health. You know, you haven't got to frame the person.

Bioenergetic Exercises and Where to Begin 25:48

What you're an expectation. You're just open to them. They're open to you. But now you've got this groundedness. So if anything dodgy goes on in the interaction, you can still put some boundaries up or that kind of thing on some level. Yeah. You know, it's crazy. I think, you know, growing up I didn't have quite the childhood you had, but my dad passed away when I was very young. And so there was some trauma and stress and and I but I just, you know, I was kind of, you know, holding it all in, not noticing it for so many years and then just discovering, wow, you know, I really am I'm kind of holding this tension and this trauma in, in ways that now I can now I can feel like when you really start to have this awareness that you had in your 30s and 40s and, you know, I had probably, you know, maybe in my 40s, maybe a little bit later than you.

It is amazing to release it. So can you give us maybe, an exercise or tool if we're experiencing maybe some, you know, everyone's been on their computers and and working, Working, working virtual now and and kind of, not moving quite as much. So maybe a couple things we can do just to get rid of some of this using biogenesis. Little, little tester for us. Yeah. Yeah. Just to try to look at a few couple of postures or something, you see. Okay. Yeah I can see you. Good. Yeah. Okay. So a great posture to practice bending with.

You can also practice it lying down, which is really good. From standing with your feet about shoulder width for a little bit wider and the outsides of your feet roughly parallel, it needs a little bend. So you can kind of come down a little bit and just try and relax your eyes open, looking straight ahead, and try to kind of feel into your throat, in your belly and deliberately balloon your belly out whilst relaxing your throat to try and trigger a natural inhale and then reverse that. Quite an exhale, taking about 2 or 3 seconds for each element that like.

Something like that. So you're kind of really trying to seal the belly and seal the and seal the throat. I mean, I'm usually working with a team trap, you know, you can download tracks that you can find some thing in the background, right. And after, you know, to, you know, you can come in to something like the bow posture wear, which is one of the foundation postures of objects where you keep your your lower body, just as it was right now. And then you bring your arms right up with your palms facing forwards.

And then you squeeze your arms backwards and press your pelvis balls and just keep looking straight ahead and keep trying to do this belly breathing with a relaxed throat. That's a bit like. Just continue that. For one doing it's like and in these postures you know with a with like that though, you don't have to get it right. Like a yoga class. It's more like you just got to push you in the right places. Then you're doing it right for your body type. Yeah. And then a good size for the shoulders.

More like staying with your lower body. Same. And you've got to keep those knees bent. We tend to lock the needs when we're when we're holding things off is to just pull shoulders up towards the ears. And you want to make it more intense. Then you can open your jaw wide as well. Like like a teenager trying to eat one. You know, and then continue with his belly greeting. We'll do both. You don't have to do the jaws touch as well, but the main thing is to really try and keep those shoulders off as high as you can for the whole thing of a minute or two.

By the baseline. So you continue this for a minute or so, and then just to complete it, we can do the arch posture, which is just bringing your feet closer together like six, eight, ten inches apart and then standing just dropping your chin to chest slowly hanging forwards like your head is really heavy and. Once you're down, ideally keep your eyes open, keeping your arms in your hair a little bit to relax your neck and shoulders. Keep breathing with your belly. And then when the dingoes come up and you can do like.

Like another weapon. One of the things you'll notice from this picture, what we're doing to kind of release stress and create more stress and kind of like, you know, potentially, if you tell them to pull your shoulder like that, like you. Plus, I'm already doing that. Yeah. But if you do that and you keep your knees a little bit and you keep breathing with your belly, at some point, you're because what's happened to your shoulders and gone, all these holding patterns in which really is just a regular muscle shape, the muscles become way.

And by we overstretching them, you start to break that up. And so the muscle starts to actually swell by creating chords and points and some kind of release can happen. Yeah. So that's a awesome. Yeah. That's great. Well, you've just given people, including me, a nice little routine to to work on there. So thank you so much for that. And I, I know that, there's so much more that you can offer people. Where can people find out more about what you do and take advantage of bioenergetics?

Finding Deb Sandberg Online 31:48

Well, I mean, they could just pull into Google Devaraj bioenergetics, dev A or bioenergetics. And you'll find my YouTube channel on my website, my website also called Bioenergetics talk.uk. You know, I've got some I've got this of course, in there and stuff. I'm trying to add to that, but I also have an awful lot of free content on YouTube. So, you know, you can you can totally dip in and give it a go for free without having to, like, you know, just try it before you kind of do anything deeper with it.

Yeah. And you came highly recommended. I just want to let everybody know. So there's, medical doctor here in the US. Is, energy healer. Also, he's, MD is a urologist. And he through the whole Covid was working, working, working and noticed that he was holding stress in his body. And you've helped him out a lot. I know, and he was the one that recommended you for, for this interview. So thank you so much for being on. And I encourage everybody to go check out Deb's work. And and he's got books. He's got 52 week course you can take advantage of.

And then, as he mentioned, lots of great stuff on YouTube and the exercises, I do call them exercises, and it feels like an exercise. Yeah. I mean, you almost get like, like when I was doing it the other day, I was sweating a little bit. It was kind of good. Right? You know, it's, it's almost like a physical exercise where you're releasing. But you said you are creating stress on the body and these different things you had me doing with my shoulders. Right. And, and and at the end, it just felt so much more of a release, you know, letting go.

And even though I was like, how can I hold on to this? This feels like I'm, you know, what I'm already feeling? And boom, oh, yeah, that felt so good. So thank you so much, Deb. It's wonderful being able to talk with you. And I know you're going to you've helped a lot of people and I know you're going to help a lot more. And hopefully people watching will go check out your site again. It's bioenergetics but bioenergetics.org.uk. And they can they can find out more about all the great things you do and take advantage of it.

So thank you so much for being part of this interview and being part of our summit. Dev, we really appreciate you. Thank you, thank you Tom. I really appreciate you man. You beautiful guy. And I hope summit goes really, really great. Yeah. Thank you very much. For.