The Dopamine Trap: Why Tech Hacks Your Motivation & Mood Without You Knowing! l Lucas Aoun l Ep #398

Introduction and Sponsor Messages 0:00

Hi, Natalie Nidam, your host here. My guest today is Lucas Awun, a naturopath and self-described human guinea pig who has spent years testing ingredients long before they were trending. He breaks down dopamine in a way that actually makes sense, how it impacts motivation, mood, and why tech hijacks it so easily. We also talk about his early formulas, the difference between tea cream and paroxysthene, and why some people crash on caffeine while others take over the world. Now, this episode is brought to you by Level Up, NeutroPept, one of my new favorite nootropic formulas, Puree, the cleanest product and whey protein powder you'll find on the market, and Timeline Mitopure Gummies, all with special offers just for you.

Check out the show notes below for details and enjoy the shows. Lucas, welcome to the Show. I can't believe it's taken us this long to get together. Yeah, no, stoked to be here, Nat. I'm excited to have a chat and deliver some incredible value for your audience. Yeah. Well, I am excited for you to do that. I feel like years ago you were in, you might've been in my Facebook group way back, which actually recently got shut down. Oh no. And it's okay. I mean, it got shot down and then it mysteriously popped back up again, but now it has no name.

So what was the reason for that? Like, why do they do that. You're you know, we all know why I mean natural remedies natural. Well, We're talking we're Talking about peptides a lot in that group and and it's very hard to manage the conversation and the poor people in this group are trying to figure out where they're like their code spelling all the words trying To keep it legit. Anyway, you were in you're in my group years and years ago and then somehow you we've gone and I lost sight of you and Then you just started popping up in My feed and i'm like, oh Oh yeah, I know that name.

What's going on? And then you reached out to me on Instagram and here we are. So this is really exciting. Yeah. I was always really, early on I really just excited to learn more, learn about different supplements, different ingredients, just get amongst the biohacking space and on Facebook. That's pretty much all I knew back then. Let's just try and find a cool group where a like-minded people who are excited talk about weird topics related to health. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. How did you start off?

Because you're Australia's leading biohacker. You're the dude in Australia. Your supplement formulator. But you have this background in medical science. What moved you over into bio-hacking and when did kind of make that transition? Yeah. Well, from a young age, I was always interested in understanding the body and, um, my, father was a pharmacist. So, uh, he owned a, a little local pharmacy here and I got a lot of experience like working in the pharmacy.

Lucas's Background and Move Into Biohacking 3:00

He was teaching me about medications, teaching about supplements and he basically threw me at the front of the shop and gave me that vitamin specialist, you know, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So he just threw me in the deep end and told me like, when customers come in, just smile, say hello, introduce yourself. It's all about customer experience. Cause that's what people value these days more than just getting a cheap product, right? So that was his point of differentiation. I learned about what it takes to actually build rapport with a customer, understand their pain points, asking about the the right questions, being really careful about prescribing or recommending supplements, like being very cautious about it.

And then from there, pretty much I just realized that at the time I was actually studying exercise science, which I absolutely loving, don't get me wrong, I'm loving it, but in my spare time, just constantly researching supplements and just anything related to naturopathy. And then I realized, hang on a sec, what am I doing in exercise science? I think I should be just studying naturopathy. Like, why don't I just become a natropath? Cause that's like the holistic approach. And you know, my dad wasn't resistant to it.

It's not like he was like, no, you can't become an natriopath. You have to go down the route of, pharmacist. He was never really like that. Who was very supportive and encouraging of the idea. And then he's like, one day you're going to have to do consults, you have a clinic yourself. You're gonna have do a consult in a little clinic, in the local clinic. And I'm like... I don't think so. I think I can create content. Deliver the most amount of value is through mass education, which is what I am doing now on Instagram, on YouTube, doing a podcast like yourself and just I've really got, I think I got a gift for identifying like new and novel health information that people are really excited to learn about and just not just sharing the same old stuff like, you know, eat, sleep, the basics.

It's like Lucas shares the offshoots, little, subtopics, nuances within each topic itself. So yeah. Nice. So did you become a naturopath or you didn't? Yeah. I completed that natruropathy degree. Of course I was like the nerd at the school, so finishing assignments very fast. At the same time, I actually working for a startup in Australia. It was actually Australia's very first nootropic startup. So I was literally working there for two years unpaid and just gaining experience, learning about the ins and outs of running a business, Yeah, just as important as what to do, and sometimes more so.

And the actual founder of the company at the time gave me the honor of actually formulating their products because he could just tell that I was so obsessed and loved it and just could understand ingredients quite well. So then yeah, I finished that degree and then, but by the time I'd finished my degree, had already had such a great following on Instagram and all that. So it was a really smooth transition into like actually getting clients and consulting. Um, so it's just been, yeah. Such a fun and fast journey, really.

That's very cool. So when you were formulating, what do you think was the most innovative thing you formulated or were you sticking to the? It's a great question. I was actually the very first person in Australia to use an ingredient called tear cream. You may have heard of. Yeah. That one. Yeah, yeah. So I noticed the benefits of that very early on, the fact that it's got minimal tolerance build up, doesn't affect blood pressure, it doesn' affect heart rate. And we'll just sort of explain it to your audience.

Teacrine is a stimulant similar to caffeine but it doesn't tend to build the same level of tolerance as it does to caffeine and it's does not affect blood pressure or heart rate. So I knew early on, I'm like, okay, this is going to be a hot ingredient because everyone loves caffeine. Everyone loves stimulants. Well, most people do. it ended up being one of the most commonly used ingredients in pre-workouts the following year. So I sort of caught onto it and noticed like, okay, this has got some, you know, substance behind it, no pun intended.

And so from there, yeah, basically formulated a tea cream, Bacopa Monieri, Ginkgo Biloba. It was like a classic, your classic nootropic blend. And then alpha GPC. And so that was the formula before those ingredients were like really, really popular. Yeah. How long ago was this? Oh, no, it was a long time ago. It would have been when I was 19 and I'm 29, 10 years ago? Yeah, not that long. Feels like ages ago, yeah. Sure it does. Is it still around? The company disintegrated three years later, like as in the TGA, I mean, the regulatory bodies in Australia did not like what we were doing, did like the claims that we're making about improving cognition.

Neuroprotective, using those words, that just... That didn't fly. That in like that. And so would you ever bring that back? That sounds like a beautiful formula. It was a fantastic. The company was called Happy, H-A-P-I. Would I ever consider bringing it back. I definitely think there'll be when my time comes to like formulate Lucas Owens like actual with my new supplement brand in before when I released my own a nootropic formula. I'm sure it'll have some of the similar ingredients. But now just like 10 years later, I've discovered so many more incredible ingredients that it's going to be actually really hard to know.

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Early Formulations and Teacrine 10:00

And no one said you can't show up for yourself. So you get the stuff for friends and family or for your self. All you've got to do is go to natnidam.com forward slash gift guide for the list of Black Friday deals that you just can not miss. I'm interested about theocrine though, because not to spend too much time on it, but still, everybody's all about paraxanthine right now, right? So paroxanthenine, which is the downstream metabolite of caffeine, so similar to what you're talking about. It doesn't give people the jitters.

It does have many of the side effects that are undesirable of caffeine, but still gives that kind of stimulant benefit, kind a nootropic. So it sounds a bit similar to theocrine. How are they different? It is actually very, very similar. The only difference is that with theocrine, the half life is very very long. it's like eight to ten hours. Whereas with paroxanthine, it's a lot shorter, which means you can use it in the later parts of the day without it disrupting your sleep. But with tea cream, what I noticed, particularly when I first started playing around with it, because you've got to remember, Nat, when i was 19 years of age, I was just like, i'm a human guinea pig.

And I'm just going to accumulate tons and tons of human experimental research, trialing different substances. And that was like peptides, it was Russian drugs, research chemicals, all sorts of stuff back in the day. Don't get me wrong, I've had my fair share of negative experiences, that's for sure. Okay. Well, that question's coming. Yes. Yeah. I had a feeling that was. With tea cream, what I noticed, well, was unique about it was that it actually peaked, like the stimulating effects peaks like three to four hours later.

Whereas with typical caffeine, it's like maybe one hour later, one to two hours Um, so I noticed it had a delayed onset and also a delay comp, like there was no real come down. Whereas with caffeine there is for me personally, I do experience a slight crash from caffeine, but you know, learning more now I realized that you can just stack it with like D ribos, which basically blocks the crash. From caffeine. Which is pretty cool. But yeah, tea cream. I think between that and paroxanthine. Wow. Like we've got so many great alkaloids we can select from nowadays.

Well, you can almost imagine stacking them because if you're taking it first thing in the morning, Yeah. I would definitely consider doing 200 milligrams of the tea cream with like 100 milligrams with the paroxanthine. If somebody were to combine that with coffee, I think it would be a lot quite stimulating. Yeah, because they've done co-administration studies doing tea green plus caffeine. And apparently tea crane amplifies the effects of caffeine as well, which is pretty interesting, but not surprising.

Yeah. Yeah, someone like me wouldn't touch it with the 10 foot pole because I don't do well with caffeine at the best of times. So you'd find me chattering, hanging off the ceiling. I actually recently figured out, and this was by accident. This is what I also love as well, Nat, is accidental discoveries through self-experimentation, which I'm sure you've had occur many, many times. Let's say you're trialing a new longevity ingredient or something. I don't know. alpha ketoglutarate, AKG, or something like that.

And you think that it's going to have a certain effect, like a distinct effect and push you in one direction. But then when you actually subjectively experience or try it, you might notice that you discover that does something else really remarkable or it something that you never predicted. And then you go down a research rabbit hole, you're like, okay, alpha keterglutarate affecting GABA or affecting serotonin or how's it affecting cortisol? How's affecting thyroid hormones? And it's like I just love seeing the links between how things affect the body.

Well, and then which gives it that bio-individual flavor, right? Because it explains very often why a supplement or an element will affect one person one way and the next person a different way. And it's by understanding what you're saying, how it affects many different pathways. Very often in marketing, You know, for good reason, but unfortunately, the supplement manufacturer is going to really focus on the one thing that they really want to push people towards. And they leave out that other stuff where, you know the person who's got a thyroid issue or who has got something else going on is gonna have a very different impact, sometimes better and sometimes worse.

Yeah. Then if they're not Lucas and they are not gonna go digging through the literature, they kind of sit there going, I don't know. Everybody else likes it. For sure. 100%. I think also as part of that, Nat, is nowadays the access to information is obviously, it's so much easier for consumers to go and chat GPT and try and obviously maybe not use it as the first and only point of reference, but at least to explore different ideas. Let's say we go back to the subject of, um, of tea cream. Yeah.

If somebody wants to actually learn about tea crane, like, and let's, say they've had a unique experience with it. They can at least, instead of going to Reddit or like. Absolutely. You know, you can learn, You can actually see, okay, let us get the brainstorming happening. Let us outsource the brain storming and get it done by an external. I think the, yeah, it's interesting. I think it's an interesting tool, right? And I mean, we could talk about this too. AI is changing our space dramatically.

And to your point, it is not that ChatGPD is going to have all the answers, or if you looked at a different search engine that's a little more geared to science, like perplexity or something like that. But what it will do is it'll gather a lot of information to give the individual a lots of different starting points for different points of inquiry. And then by giving you the references to where it found its information, you can start to tease out the, oh, this person wrote a great blog, so somehow they ranked.

But really what I'm looking for is the PubMed article. That talks about an experiment that actually, because it could be someone who's marketing a product with that ingredient, whatever the case may be. That's not where you want to get your information. You want try and find it in the studies. It's such a great catalyst. Yeah. It basically is just outsourcing your initial difficulty of brainstorming, you know, cause people, a lot of people will have noticed we're becoming so lazy, like so, so I lazy.

So we want to try and outsource as much as we, we can. And I think something like, yeah, using these tools, I the contribution of AI is going to have the biggest positive impact in the health space. That's my thoughts in terms of cancer discovery, things like that, being able to identify cutting edge drugs and ingredients and peptides. Let's not shy away from peptide. It's like, that's exciting. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think AI will continue to play a role, but it is going to be about how well people learn how to use it.

I don't know that we're getting lazy. The opportunity of AI is if we are using it properly, it makes us more efficient. It allows you to go deeper faster, to ask better questions, I don't know. Like, I feel like there's there is a positive side to it. I mean, we could call it lazy, but I could also say, is it really necessary to spend 10 hours grinding through true journals if you can find something that can help you to kind of bring the information together? Yeah. The trick is not to just stop there, to keep digging a little bit because I can be lazy.

Yeah, and I think it's being lazy but it can miss stuff along the way. So you still have to check the work. It's a good point. Yeah, you could look at it from an angle of being super resourceful. So you as a human now are becoming the ultimate mediator. You're just stitching together different things. And if you're not being resource-ful, I think you'll fall behind because people around you will. Well, you become a curator, right? And I heard somebody say something to me recently about AI, because they went to some mastermind.

And what the person who was talking said is, there's going to be three people, three types of people with AI. Think of AI as a tsunami. There's gonna be the people standing on the beach looking at the tsunami coming, going, oh, wow, and they're gonna die. Then there are the the who are gonna pretend the tsunamis not there. They're also going to die. Yeah. And then there's the people who are going figure out how to ride the tsunami and they're going be the ones that are really going win. Right. So at this point, it's not a question of if it is here and how are we going of figure how leverage it for our benefit.

I think to your point for the average consumer it gives them a foothold so that they are not running blind in a lot of these areas. Are you still are you Still clinically? Are You still working with clients or are or patients? I mean, as a naturopath, you have patients, but do you so work with patients or you now? I do. Yeah. I mean, I'm still, if we had to sort of like divvy up my time, how I divide my times right now. A lot of my is still spent on the content creation, like education and research.

Thinking about the next great YouTube video, thinking about next Instagram reel, falling down the creator's rabbit hole. Um, but I'm still doing, yeah, one-on-one consults and I've been doing group coaching for, I think over two years now. Um. And that's just so much fun. Like the guys that join that I just, they're all just wanting to thrive, to become better humans, too, look at trialing the next different biohack.

AI, Research, and Self-Experimentation 21:00

They're open-minded and. I learned so from those groups as well. The learning that again, from that as. That's the beauty of working with people, right? Well, number one, it's being able to help people directly and help them to achieve the outcomes that they're after. But also, It's very hard to learn in a static environment. So it's learning from interacting one-on-one or in groups. I don't do much one on one work anymore, but I do a little bit of group work and you do learn a lot and it keeps you humble.

Definitely. It also gives you the opportunity to have your finger on the pulse in terms of what are people struggling with? Because it's like once they've unlocked a certain level in term of health, they're always looking for that next thing. So you get a chance of saying, all right, A lot of these guys this week are complaining about this particular hormone they want to optimize. All right, great. I'm going to create content about that. Let's educate. Dive deep on that subject because clearly there's a demand for it.

Yeah. Well, speaking of diving deep, let's talk about dopamine. Definitely. Nice transition. I mean, this is all moving into this space of nootropics, right? And interestingly enough, that formula that you talked about earlier, even though it might be a pre-workout, a lot of people would look at it and say, hmm, it's got some pretty cool, anything that's gonna be good pre workout, I think that well formulated is actually gonna affect the brain as well. Definitely, definitely. We all know that last rep really comes from here.

Well, that's a great point. And I think when it comes to exercise performance, because I have an exercise science background, and now I've merged it with like naturopathy. When I initially started my natruopathy degree, I was like, Oh, am going to be a natropath for athletes to improve their performance. That was always like my initial goal. Now it's obviously catapulted into doing many different things, but I always had the idea in my mind that I was going to formulate stacks, like supplement stacks and protocols that can improve endurance, improve strength, help with recovery.

And I literally was sharing these stacks on a public website called ratemystack.com. This was many, many years ago. It's such a nerdy thing to do. But I was like, I constantly kept winning the award for the best stack each week. And then back then I'm like okay, hang on Well, yeah. Then I realized nootropics can massively affect not only mental performance, but also physical performance as well. Because like you said before, I don't think people really understand this. But when it comes to what actually causes fatigue during exercise, I've researched this quite extensively and it turns out that serotonin, the buildup of seratonin is actually what drives fatigue during exercise.

And so those that have very high levels of Serotonins actually have decreased motivation to keep pushing through. Whereas those who have high dopamine have more like willpower to squeeze out the last rep per se, like just push through even further. That's interesting. Well, and a lot of people would say that when you give up, it's your brain trying to save you. It's essentially your brains saying, we're going to get crushed. So you're trying push that last overhead press. Your brain's like, dude, I'm it.

Me. You're you going crush me. And it is the body really trying Because it's not natural, if you think about it, to be pushing a ton of weight or to drive yourself to run that extra hundred meters extra fast unless there's a lion chasing you. So it is a sense of self-preservation and overcoming that natural survival instinct to kind of pull back before you pull something is part of the equation. Hmm. Definitely. And the way that I also understood that and learned about that was when I was researching BCAAs, this was like a common, you probably heard this as well, how they can, if BCAs are taken by themselves, the leucine, isoleucin, valine.

Which at one point in time, they were really popular gym supplements and like pre-workout or post post- workout. that taking BCAAs is actually now basically redundant because they can block the uptake of tryptophan and tyrosine into the brain. And therefore, you're depleting both serotonin and dopamine. Interesting. A lot of people have complained about weird mood-related issues when they use BCAs. Well, it's interesting because I did a course with Joel Green a couple years ago, and he brought up BCA.

So essential amino acid stacks. It's those nine essential, amino acids that a lot of people will supplement with around workouts. And I'm at it, coming at from a different place than you are, right? I am a few decades ahead. Plus, I'm a woman, so building muscle is not necessarily as easy for me right out of the gate. And he was talking, and this is in older adults, not just women, but men as well, that in the case of older adult, what BCAAs do do, this has taken post-workout, is it helps with satellite cells, which are the cells that promote muscle fiber growth, they kind of tend to become inactive as we age.

And he had found in the research some really interesting data that showed that BCAAs in older adults, so less so in your young, fit, male, bodybuilding crowd, but more so that there was an application in an older adult post-workout. Which brings us into the real nuance around all of these things. We hear creatine is good, creatines is bad. BCAs are so last year. And usually there's a reason why something came up. Well, and also women are excluded terribly in clinical studies. So I think it's really unfair as a female to understand how things are going to affect them because I know it is a lot harder to study because they obviously have- Four different women every month.

Yeah. That's fair. I've actually never heard that saying it, but I actually really like that. There's nothing a researcher hates more than changing parameters, variability that they can't control. And so, I mean, it doesn't excuse them, but it explains why. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But yeah, look, like you said, time, its context dependent. So like when it comes to supplements, There's no one size fits all. There are definitely certain rules that I think should be adhered to, but when it comes to like, all right, if somebody were to come up to Nat and be like Nat, what should I take for this, this and this?

You'd be, like hang on a sec. I need to understand the context, right? I don't know anything about you. Which I'm sure you get DMs every single day, Nat. What's the peptide for? Like, no. It depends, is the answer they usually get. So let's go back to dopamine though. Why don't you do a little dive for us into dopamine? I think that what's really interesting is, I mean, obviously it's there for focus, but how should people be thinking about managing and what are the danger signs we want them to look for and just to really leverage their dopamine status to optimize their performance?

Yeah, so first of all, dopamine is an incredibly important neurotransmitter that we're all producing on a daily basis. And the reason why I became so interested in understanding how to really just optimize dopamine was because I realized that if I wanted to Number one, start my own business. Number two, like be motivated and wake up every day feeling driven, motivated, excited, and want to get after my goals. then dopamine is gonna be an important part of that recipe, right? So it has to be there.

But in my opinion, I didn't want it to balanced with like serotonin. I actually wanted it be imbalanced and more dominant. So I wanted to become dopamine dominant because I realized, hang on a sec, why is it that all these entrepreneurs, productivity freaks, like how are they getting so much work done? Like, how come they're so motivated? Like some people will say, oh, it might be due to childhood trauma, things like that. But I basically disregarded all that and I thought just biologically speaking, what is the neurochemistry behind productivity and focus and that sort of stuff?

And I actually, I don't know if I coined the term, but I was really excited by this concept of cosmetic neurology. which is being able to tweak and manipulate your neurotransmitters to your exact needs.

Dopamine, Motivation, and Performance 31:00

That's a very cool concept. The idea was based around, for example, depending upon the task in which I'm approaching, what should my neurotransmitter profile look like? And that was the idea around this cosmetic neurology. It was one of the first courses that I released probably five years ago. And then I realized, all right, so dopamine, clearly it's an important one. Even on Reddit, if you go on reddit, like the new tropic. I never go one Reddit. Yeah, it's toxic. It is crazy. I avoid Reddit at all costs.

But anyway, you can tell us about Reddit. The reason why I do float on Reddit is because I like to see what people are actually interested in and talking about. Like just gaining interest. And like, okay, what are people talking? And everyone keeps on posting, everyone kept posting. What's the best supplement to boost dopamine? How do I upregulate my dopamine receptors? What can I to supercharge? I'm like okay. Let's just become an expert. really well. And then I discovered some really incredible ingredients that I subjected my body to.

Number one was uridine monophosphate. That changed the game for me. It literally shifted my personality in a direction that was wanting it to go in, which was it made me want to get shit done. It turned me into a productivity freak. And at the time, of course, that was important to me because I was building a business. Now, I don't use it at all because i'm not in that phase of my life. I'm trying to expand my social connections and become more community driven, and that sort of stuff. But early on, when I building and I just starting, i needed that kick to actually push me in that right direction.

And is there a downside to uridine monophosphate? For some people, yes, it makes them motivated and driven, but for some, people it make them feel a little bit more emotionally disconnected, a bit numb in terms of disinterest, bit robotic in a sense. But you can see how that could be good in certain situations. Like laser focus. So that one was really great, particularly when combined with high-dose EPA and DHA. So the actual stack wasn't developed by myself, it was actually something called the Mr.

Happy stack. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. So it's actually a really famous stack that was developed by this guy, again, on Reddit, where it was the combination of DHA, EPA, so omega-3s, with the URED monophosphate, and then B complex, like that B-complex formulation. And you look at the research behind it, funnily enough, there's a anti-alzheimer's formula that's like now you sold in millions, like thousands of pharmacies across Australia. It's called Suvinade. And it's actually based around that combination, which is really cool.

That's really interesting. Okay. So that optimizes dopamine. Yeah. So the way in which it works is it increases, I'll get a little bit sciencey. It increases potassium evoked dopamine release, and it also helps with up-regulating dopamine D2 receptors. Perfect. That's what we want in today's society. The next one that I had a great experience with was either L-tyrosine or L phenylalanine, which one's actually non-essential. L. phenyalanin is essential. So I actually chose the essential one because it's the one that makes sense.

Um, and that I still use today. I actually, um, still used today if I'm, let's just say I've had a really depleting week, a real exhausting week of just lots of work and stuff. But then I have to go out and go to a birthday party or a, or dinner or something where I am, if i'm feeling drained, but I don't want to stimulate myself with caffeine, then i'll have phenylalanine and I'll take L-phenylanine under my tongue. about 250 to 500 milligrams. And that is enough to not mess up my sleep, but give me enough excitement and enthusiasm to get up and go and socialize and be in a bit more upbeat social bubbly state.

Yeah. Interesting. Well, what's interesting about that You know, in the world right now, there's this movement away from alcohol. And it's interesting. There is, right? I mean, believe me, I still have friends who you will have to pry their wine bottle out of their dying hands, which sadly will come sooner than later for them. But there is definitely a movement. Even in younger people, like I think it is across the board. Tim Gray just posted about that today, Did he? Yeah, about Generation Gen Z, like massive decline in alcohol consumption.

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, it's been happening for like, anybody who's paying attention is seeing it happen, right? And there's more and more, definitely there is a lot of focus on finding alternatives to alcohol for people. And And it comes down to, can we identify what those things are that alcohol is doing for people that we can trigger with some, whether it's a kava that, you know, kind of the right kaba extract can actually act as kind this social lubricant, if you will, help people to feel a little looser, more friendly, or phenylalanine.

And could a Kavanfel and phenyalanin partner together to And Catawaba, that's actually where, so the Catwaba combination, one of the biggest effects that I noticed early on when I was researching Catawa was that it made people way more social and like just more excited and outgoing. It actually shifted because when might as well get into the discovery behind it. So Catuaba is a Brazilian herb. It's very, very famous in South America as their number one, like, aphrodisiac. When people think of Macca powder, it's similar to a Maca powder.

Similar to like a ginseng, but not overly stimulating like gingseng. And Catuaaba It actually literally translates to what gives strength to the man, like as in to increase strength. And like, they also call it the tree of togetherness, which means that it's to bring together people and to like it, even shamans back in the day would use it to ignite romantic intimacy, things like that. and they would use it with a concoction of other herbs as well. Another one called Mirapwama, which is also a great herb.

But the reason why I was so excited about Catuaba was because some of the early rat studies, obviously it's not human studies but it was just animal studies which was all I could go by. What else can you do? When there's no human study, what can do you? What's the next best thing you can? You can have a look at some animal study. And so in the animal It demonstrated that Catawaba was a mild dopamine reuptake inhibitor. So the opposite of SSRI. I was like, hang on a sec. Katwaaba makes rats very happy.

Like, what's it going to do for humans? And then I look at the human traditional use, like historical usage, and it does help with mood. It actually is considered to be an antidepressant. And I'm like, I think this is going be a really cool herb to serve a real important purpose for people that don't want to drink. Because that was me. I've actually never, I've had like three glasses of alcohol in my whole life. So, yeah. I mean, I'd never been a big drinker, but I definitely had more than three.

But my life's I been around a lot longer than you, so that's probably part of it too. Well, the mindset for me was I was always a semi-professional soccer player early on. Right. so I always thinking about training and training. Um, So I brainwashed early by my coach never to drink. It's good brainwashing. I feel athletes go one way or the other, right? True, true. But yeah, I think, like you said before, the decreased interest in alcohol, why is that the case? Well, our generation becoming more educated about the actual toxicity associated with alcohol, beyond just the liver.

They're starting to learn now finally, okay, it's affecting the brain. This is not beneficial. It will contribute and accelerate the likelihood of developing dementia, Parkinson's, things like that. So I think it is pretty well established. And even Huberman, thank you to Dr. Andrew Hüberman for actually you know, creating content around this for saying that was it no, no amount of alcohol is safe for human consumption. I think he said. There's no minimum, there's not good amount of alcohol. Yeah.

None. And even the Resveratrol story, honestly, A, you could get your Reseveratroll from other places without alcohol and B, the value of Resvertrol in the first place is highly questionable at this point. We don't need to go there, but let's just say that all you guys that are hanging your hat on the resverotrol content of your red wine, Exactly. I think the idea around alcohol acting as a social lubricant, like you said before, we can mimic the effects if we understand the mechanism. That's why I've always been so obsessed with understanding what and how and why are things working and doing what they do?

Because with ethanol, we know that it's hitting the GABA-A receptor, which is a particular receptor that famous or commonly prescribed anti-anxiety drugs also hit, like the valiums and the benzodiazepines, things like that. But then I'm like, OK, but surely there's some supplements, natural ingredients out there that can also hit that receptor in a safer way, like in the more effective, safer away. And there are many, Like you said, Carver, Lemon Balm, Magnolia Bark, L-Theanine, Taurine. A lot of them.

Yeah, there is a lot. There's a Apigenin, Magnesium, There's just so many that do that. And a lot of these things don't have toxicity, they have the opposite. They're actually protective. So it's like, why would you use alcohol if you could take something that's going to give you the effect and give me no calm down as well? I feel like dopamine is a good news, bad news neurotransmitter. True. If we look at any of the research around things like Instagram, like social media and how that puts people, that over puts their dopamine into overdrive.

like understanding that nuance between activating dopamine, leaning into it, leveraging it as a superpower, and yet seeing how easily it can be manipulated, send you down a dark, deep rabbit hole that you're never seen from. You emerge from a three o'clock in the morning kind of bleary-eyed. Well, I really like what I think Huberman's also mentioned, which is Like if you're releasing dopamine without effort, physical or mental effort. That's the problem. Like that seems to be the main problem because when you are expending effort and energy outward, that's when should get that dopamine response because it reinforces that behavior.

physical exercise activity. Yes, it's difficult and you're putting in the effort to actually move your body. But then when you do that, the body pays it off, gives you a payoff. There's a reward. The dopamine. So the problem is now that things obviously is we can just get what we want when we Um, the convenience factor. So that makes it a little bit more challenging now because now we actually have to spend, uh, what do you call it? Like fine time during the day to actually put in the effort, which is like, go to the gym in a morning or go the Jim at nighttime, you know, like after actually fine.

Yeah, absolutely. When you work with your clients, and I'm guessing you worked mostly with men. Am I right about that? Yeah. It sounds like you're working with man. Do you advise them on best time to work out? Because I know there's different theories about. Personally, if I don't go first thing in the morning, it's just not going to happen in my world. But, you know, if you listen to Ben Greenfield, four or five o'clock is, when your strength peaks, there's an argument that says that might be the best time.

I think we can all agree that seven, eight o clock at night is too late. You're never going to get to sleep. Not good. Yeah. Well, I like that topic. It's actually, it's come up like three times this week. You know, in terms of exercise timing, I'm the same as you personally. I think if I don't get it done first thing in the morning, it's going to be hard to fit it in, particularly if you run your own business, like it. Yeah, you're busy. You're like doing other things. Things pop up like gets in.

But I must admit though that training at in that afternoon evening, have personally felt like I do feel a little bit stronger. um like i have because i've eaten like three probably two or three main meals before that um so i'm really well fed and i'M full and my blood sugar is likely a lot higher than what it was in the morning. You have ammunition. Yeah. So having said that, I think there was a period of time where I was training fasted in a morning consistently, but I wasn't eating enough the night before.

Alcohol Alternatives and Social Support Herbs 46:00

And I feel like that was the problem. The final meal before bed needed to be more dense. Yeah. And just a lot like carb heavy, just more carbs. Cause if it, like the sort of training that I'm trying to, that i'm doing is they're carbohydrate dominant exercises. So therefore you need to personally, I thought you needed a refill on the carbohydrates more so, you know, than I before. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You know, I feel like the conversation again, all of these conversations, love that they're becoming more nuanced.

I love. It's well, because for the longest time it was black and white, right? Never work out first thing in the morning, fasted. There's times when it's actually gonna work for the right person at the time if they're not in a state of adrenal exhaustion, just kicking themselves all over town kind of thing. And it depends on the workout and it depend on what, as you're saying, what you ate the night before, how you gonna refuel on either side of it. But I do, I agree with you that there is that sweet spot around late afternoon, early evening, that's probably physiologically the best time to exercise.

But ultimately the exercise is the exercises that you actually do. Yeah, I get it. It's the right, you're sending the message to the, to people that need to hear it is like majority of people just need hear what you just said in that last sentence. The best exercise that you do is the exercise you at least just do. You do, right? Because if you sit there and say, well, I didn't make my five o'clock for the last six months, do it at seven in the morning. Just get her done. Get it out there. I do find as well particularly with, it's probably more common in women is that under eating aspect with the heavy training because I forget about, you know, reproductive functioning and that's going to be a recipe for, is it female athlete triad?

Is that the term that they use? I think the equivalent in men is low testosterone, which is like- Which we're seeing a lot of right now in younger men. Yeah. And that's why when I was also researching dopamine, I actually quickly learned that the dopamine aspect, yes, it's important, but then without the testosterone, testosterone enables action and it actually encourages physical activity and effort. And there's like, Kubman also has mentioned something like testosterone makes effort feel good.

And it makes so much sense because it's the guys that have high testosterone, they want to get after their day. They want crush their to-do list. It sort of enables that action. So yeah, nowadays the problem with most men is that their testosterone levels are nowhere near where they need to be. Um, and a lot of guys are jumping onto, you know, TRT testosterone replacement therapy, in my opinion, too, like prematurely, they're not actually, putting in the effort to try and optimize naturally. Um.

And that's like a, that a problem, I think. So why don't we talk about that a little bit because, you know, it's interesting and we don t need to talk it now, but testosterone has become a very hot topic for women as well. But let's start with, let s talk men because that's your area right now. And I do think it s concerning that younger and younger men are looking for testosterone replacement therapy. And so let's talk a bit about what could be driving that and what they really need to be looking at.

And also, is there a thyroid connection there as well? Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that because when guys are focused so heavily on testosterone, a lot of the time when I look at their blood work, I know deep down that there's actually something upstream that's even more important that actually regulates your ability to convert cholesterol into the sex steroid hormones, including testosterone, and that is thyroid T3. So the guys that have low T3 are usually the guys that have low testosterone because they're not converting the cholesterol sufficiently.

They're making its way through the mitochondria, through this particular enzyme, star enzyme. And therefore, they are not producing enough testosterone. That's a problem. When it comes to thyroid, yes, it's I'd say it's probably more heavily spoken about in women's health because it is more common an issue. But for men, I rarely see a guy's blood work where his T3 levels are where I want it to be. And I'm talking TSH and also T4. So for my sweet spot, you've probably got your own sweet For me, it's 0.5 to 1.50 for TSH on the lower side, even though the reference range is ridiculously...

Isn't it up to four or something? It's insane. It makes no sense. I think most people want to see it under two for sure. Yeah. I've actually, by the way, got mine down to 0.49. So I got to be careful. Not pushing it too fast. Too low. Yeah, yeah. But T4, usually around anywhere from between like 15 and 20. That's usually good for our reference ranges in Australia. And then T3, I like to see it above 5.8 to around 6.2, 6 .3. I know it's very specific, but it is on the upper end of the reference range.

Is that the same for yourself? It sounds to me like the units are the the Australia and Canada. We operate in the in same world. But I don't typically work with men's hormones, so I'm going to take your word for it on that. For thyroid, metrics, those all sound pretty good. You're a lot tighter on the T3, but at some level you're aiming for a very specific outcome. What's interesting about an underperforming thyroid is that cholesterol levels are going to go up. My dad's been on cholesterol medication for as long as I can remember.

And it wasn't until much later in his life that anybody ever told him that his thyroid was underperforming. So meanwhile he has decades of statin use when maybe all he needed was thyroid support way back in the day. Well, really long time ago, I think in the 1960s or 1970s, they actually prescribed thyroid to lower cholesterol. It was actually a type of thyroid, it was T3. That makes so much sense. Why did it go away? I know. Even when I'm scrolling down guys' blood test results and I can see their TSH is like three.

And even before I get to the cholesterol and scrolling and then I got to cholesterol, I knew that was going to be high. I literally was even going preemptively say that that's a problem. It is a problem. Why is it a problems? The question is why is thyroid an issue? Well, it's because nutrient deficiencies. Yes, of course, iodine, selenium, zinc, magnesium, tyrosine. And yes, they're important. But then looking beyond that, why again? We have to acknowledge the fact that pollutants, fluoride, things that actually block thyroid hormones.

It's ubiquitous. Like it's everywhere. So therefore you can't really get away from it unless you're living a really healthy lifestyle. And then also beyond that is I've seen guys that decide to go on a full carnivore diet as well, like without any carbs, basically like a keto, very, low carb diet, which in some cases for obesity, trying to drop a lot of body weight, yeah, it can do a great job. They're the ones that don't have enough carbs are the one that have low T3 because you need carbohydrates to adequately convert T4 into T 3 as well.

So that's also another thing that guys get confused about. Yeah. Well, I mean, the carnivore camp is a very compelling camp, right? Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, when you listen to the big names in the Carnivores camp they're very, very compeling people and it definitely works for them in some way, shape or form. I don't know.I think I'm a little bit with you. I'm actually curious, what do you think is lacking the most about the carnivore diet? What's the thing that it's missing, do think? I think for me, it's nutrient diversity.

I feel like the human animal was never meant to be monothaic when it comes to diet. We're obligate omnivores. Maybe there are certain people from certain ethnic lineages that might be better suited to carnivore, I'm really open to that possibility.

Exercise Timing, Testosterone, and Thyroid Health 56:00

But personally, i'm Mediterranean descent. I tried to do carnival and it was nothing short of a disaster. So I think whenever people go into these these very extreme diets the most important thing is number one as you said earlier as an intervention it can be really powerful right but you have to be the way to make it work for someone is to open to the possibility that it's not going to exactly right for you and we see it actually a little bit even though he's still somewhat very very set in his ways Paul Saladino You know, he started off hardcore carnivore.

He ended up moving into a space where he added back fruit and raw milk and honey, and he's been crucified by the hardcore carnavors. But you can see in him that there's a shift where had to adapt to what his body really needed, not to mention the fact that he lives in Costa Rica. So he is living in a different environment where your body is, you know... respond differently to different foods. And I think that's a piece of the puzzle. Yep. I fully resonate with that. Well, when I look at it as well, like we were talking sort of before the podcast about the polyphenols, you can't get poly phenols in meat.

You can get these flavonoids from meat, and you get them from fruit, which I Like blueberries, blackberries, we can't deny the fact that these have beneficial effects long term, as long as they're clean. They're actually not sprayed with all that crap. But some of the best supplements and the most nootropic ingredients have come from plants, but haven't come like that they've come from maybe but that's it yeah good point actually and even kind of seen as well but yeah and taurine i can't deny that and then there's tauren yeah yeah i mean there is iron in the right yeah it's more like yes yes It's more like the neurogenic sort of the BDNF boosting compounds like terastilbene from blueberries and apigenin from chamomile and she can also get from parsley.

Every time I come up with an argument, I can't even But to your point, Mother Nature offers us many different ways to skin this cat, right? And meat's going to get you so far. Meat, healthy fat. I mean, we all want the healthy fats. What's It's going to, in some ways, depend on your current state. We know what unhealthy fat is, but I'm actually curious on you position on seed oils. Because that's another one these days that is lighting up the world. And so you've got part of the word that seed oil is essentially a creation from Satan to destroy humanity.

And yet there's research that shows that certain seed oils are actually not that harmful. Okay. I think it's a spectrum. So with the seed oil, there are definitely types of seed that are very, very problematic and bad in my opinion that I would never use. I do occasionally have sunflower oil every now and then. Or I'll have things that are actually considered poofers. I've had them here and there. Like I can't think of any other one right now that I have more often. Obviously my dominant oil or fatty acid composition that i thrive on is extra virgin olive oil and butter.

and coconut oil. They're the three that I prefer. But every now and then, if I'm going to have a little bit of sunflower oil, I don't think it's going absolutely kill me because I've had a look into the research behind. I know it is more rancid. It's likely to get oxidized, but there's actually dedicated unique benefits to sunflower, for example. If we look at something like canola oil Yeah. I mean, that's- The research is so, it'd be so difficult for a consumer to understand why is canola oil actually bad?

Because if you go on pub, have you seen the studies where there's like it lowers cholesterol, does all the good things? There's, I, mean again, clearly, you know, there is good canole oil and bad canoe oil. Would I use it as my main oil? No, not even close, right? I remember I used to get this pumpkin seed oil, um from styrian pumpkin seed oil like from where is that like not in germany but somewhere in that part of the world like really and it was and lucas it Was like the deepest darkest green you could ever imagine and have the most unbelievable flavor.

It was wildly expensive but they had data that showed that it helped in men's health like nobody's business because it's very high in zinc It was really, really incredible as a food. Yeah. That's a good example of one that, I mean, that technically would be classified as the seed oil or like a, do they call that a proofer? Would that be called a polyunsaturated? Probably. I But first of all, it was the seeds they were harvesting. It was low heat. You know, there was a cold expeller press. The bottles were small so that you would get to consume it before it went bad.

I mean, I've had rancid coconut oil. Some things are less likely to go bad than others, but anything can really go Anyway, I think it's an interesting rabbit hole, but we've abandoned our men, left them hanging on the testosterone. It does lead into this topic of testosterone and thyroid because I always say for guys, if they're looking to boost testosterone as high as possible naturally, and if there really want to optimize their hormones, then we actually need to focus on avocados, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil butter, saturated fat from red meat.

Like these are the types of fats where I've seen blood work and I have looked at thousands of different guys' bloodwork over the years. These are types fats that are really important for actually helping with testosterone production because I seen guys that go vegan and they go plant-based and have seen their blood-work and it's not pretty. It's a good site at all. Well, I think part of the vegan thing also is very few people do it properly. Yeah. And you kind of can't do without supplementation of some kind.

So it's also not a particularly natural diet for the long term and people will hate on us for saying this. And yet there's people who've pulled it off and become bodybuilders. I don't know if you've ever met Wade Lightheart from Bioptimizers and he's pretty much all plant-based. And I think he won a bodybuilding competition not that long ago as a 50-year-old guy who's fully plant-based. But the guy's optimizing in many other ways. He's using digestive enzymes. I'm sure he's taking all the right supplement stacks.

And his body seems to do very well with it. Most people who go vegan just have this really sad diet of Tofurky. Somebody should capture what you said and use it as an ad for like a carnival ad. I'm sorry. And I mean no disrespect. Look, there's a lot of reasons why people avoid animal products and I got to respect them. But at the same time, I think that when you're looking to optimize your health, there's gonna be a price to pay and you have to do the research so that you can plug the holes that are naturally present in a vegan diet.

Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So back to our testosterone conversation. With your guys, particularly the younger guys. The first thing you're going to look at really is the thyroid and see if that's optimized. You're gonna look for fat intake and their carb intake to make sure that they're nourishing the body in a way that it feels safe and has the materials and can do the conversions. Correct. Then I'm also going to look at their exercise, like how they're actually training if they doing the right types of exercise.

So for example, the guys that are doing really long endurance, ultra marathon training, testosterone's in the floor, terrible. That's why I usually recommend weight training three to four times a week. And we're talking like, yes, compound movements, squatting, deadlifting, bench press. they're going to really move the needle in terms of boosting testosterone. Beyond just training, I'm then also looking at like sleep quality because obviously, the whole point around testosterone optimization is actually just to become as healthy as possible.

like because then testosterone levels will thrive. So getting in at least seven and a half to eight and half hours of good quality sleep per night is going to be important. And I always emphasize to guys to stop also wearing polyester underwear because funnily enough, polyester, the electrostatic shocks, that charge that it builds up, can actually... The little static shocks can lead to infertility in men if they're wearing polyesters underwear. Who wears polyesters underwear? I guess a lot of people do.

Well, first of all, there's heaps of different brands that use it in their underwear, but the best ones I want to be using is like bamboo or cotton. Or the viscose, like the plant viscos. Yeah. No problems with those. But if we look at the reasoning why it's a problem is because From a male anatomy perspective, the testes hang outside the body for a reason because they have to be kept cooler than the core body temperature. Therefore, as a man, he should be keeping his balls cool as much as possible.

which is why I've been popularizing the icing the testes. That's taken off like crazy. I had so many couples come back to me saying that they've just fallen pregnant. They've conceived just from the guy doing the No kidding. And red light. Red light therapy, sometimes sunning as well, like intimate and suning. Yeah, that's a whole different topic. We don't have time for that because I want to get back to the cat cat will purify quickly. But okay, so are we good on the testosterone? Yeah. Sure. Diet, exercise, thyroid, diet, sleep, exercise, diet.

Optimizing your lifestyle, ultimately. It's creating a world where the body feels safe and in a place where it's time to reproduce. That's the bottom line, right? And also a state of abundance in terms of safety, security, even I don't really like saying this sometimes, but financially as well, like as a man to feel like he's got his security, financial security as. Well, I have seen blood work from guys that do the testosterone levels before and after they've made a lot of money from something.

It's insane what it does to their testosterone. The guys have made hundreds of thousands of dollars in a couple of months or whatever. Their testosterone that was just spike like crazy. Yeah. I mean, you could argue that getting there also is they're so stressed, working so hard, burning the candle at both ends, not exercising, and not taking care of themselves. You know, like both are true. And I'm sure that, when you're feeling flush, the whole world just looks and feels better. Let's talk a little bit about whatever made you jump into this whole supplement business, because it's an interesting business.

It's a tough business again, just like the conversation we had before we started recording when somebody tried to talk me into starting a podcast and me saying, no, the world does not need another podcast. Here we are. There's no shortage of supplements out there, but I find it really interesting that the one supplement that you've pushed out so far that You've developed is a little bit unique. Like I've never heard of it before and yeah, it's got its own. It's Got its little niche now. Yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, have always had the idea that I'd release my own supplements in the future.

Um, and I've always thought that my formulation, every formulator thinks that he's formulas are unique. Which, you know, they always say the same story, but I think, um, I just think that the way in which I'm sort of combining ingredients or educating about them makes people really curious and excited and want to try them. And, you know, I had the choice of releasing anything as my very first supplement.

Diet, Seed Oils, and Supplement Brand Launch 1:10:00

It could have been a magnesium product, it could've been of vitamin D. There's a million of those out there. Why go there? So I decided, I've known about catawaba for years and I have used it and prescribed it. I know it's a really popular herb in South America and Brazil. It's got some pretty cool animal studies behind it, but I also know that there are catwaba products on the market, I don't think that they're doing a great job in terms of actually like quality sourcing and that sort of stuff.

So I picked, I decided, you know what, i'm going to go for it. I'm gonna get high quality Katoaba, which don't get me wrong, that was not an easy task at all. We got our third party tested using a company called alchemist.com. They're like America's best third-party assessment for quality And to be honest, Nat, we actually sent two samples and they both failed. They didn't come back. Actually, they did not pass quality. And they actually weren't Catuaba, even though the supplier said it was, and I was really upset.

I'm like, I want to release a product that doesn't even exist. Where can I find legitimate Catuaaba? Yeah. Anyway, long story short, we ended up finding a supplier who actually passed the assessment, which is the one that we're using now called Katwa Pure. We've trademarked the name Katua Pure and the brand name for my supplement brand is... That took so long to think of a name because... Oh, there we go. That's got it in the hands. um the brand name took us ages to think of because all the good names were not like we couldn't trademark right so it was like and there's so many different supplement brands out there but we finally arrived on in before because that encapsulates Um, what I stand for, which is releasing cutting edge ingredients in before everyone else.

Nice. That's why I love it. So, so there's mostly animal studies, but there is traditional uses for Katoa in Brazil, right? And so does it, is it mostly a men's supplement or is good for men and women? Do you know yet or? It can be used by both men and women. The mood benefits definitely apply to both. Definitely apply it to women as well for like mood. Got to realize that this product is a dopamine boosting herb. So it actually increases dopamine. And you can see how that's going to translate to subjective experience, improved mood, motivation, better libido, just general vitality.

So women can definitely use it as well. I love it. Yeah. The way I like to put it is like, if a woman responds well to like let's say Macca powder or Rodeola or like a ginseng, this is where Catuaba can really shine. It can sort of, and also Makuna, Makunapurians. This is when I think Catuaaba slots right in as like an alternative to those. Okay. Well, it's interesting. I'm actually testing out a line of Maca products right now. So is it the Macatain or different? Nope. It's a company called Symphony Health.

Okay? And they've developed a formulas that support women's hormones, but there's three different formulas for women who are still cycling, women in perimenopause, and women And so it's, you know, it a very, the, and they have some very impressive people on their board. So the coming out position is that it can, It might be able to either reduce the amount of hormone therapy that women need. And in some cases eliminate it, which I find a little bit fascinating. It's stretching my, I'm like, let me get this straight.

Shops closed and you're telling me. So we'll see. I think that it's a very interesting premise. And if it does work that way, it offers a different avenue. Maybe it won't work for every woman, but maybe for some women, and certainly women who are not willing to use hormone replacement, maybe it is another strategy that they can lean into. Yeah, interesting. That might actually stack well. If you look at some of the formulas on the market, there have been formulations where they're using maca with the catwaba.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Maca catwauba damiana is another herb that's really popular. Passion flower, that also stacks really well with it. But yeah, I think Realistically not. I mean, it's the first product that I've released, but my long-term goal is I want to have literally like, you know, 40, 50 different products. Uh, I'm in this for the long game. Like, um, just at the beginning of my career and I, uh, want it like. I've got great formulation ideas that don't mean anything if they're just sitting on an Excel spreadsheet.

They have to get out there. Or what's that website? What's my stack? It was like, yeah, write my stock. I don' even know if it exists anymore. Now I'm looking forward to seeing the new edition of that pre-workout that you described at the beginning of the podcast. Oh yeah. I think that'll be very cool. So InBe4 Catwa Pure is available in the US. It's online. Amazon US for sale. And they can also get it at inbe4sups.com. Um, what I'm trying my best to educate. Thank you so much for even allowing me the voice here to talk about it because it's like, I want people to start realizing that they don't have to just use the general.

herbs that are out there. There's other things you can explore. If you've had a great experience, I love herbs. I'm a naturopath, right? So if you had had great experiences with, let's say, rhodiola or ashwagandha or ginseng, explore what else is out. Because katoaba might be another thing that you might respond well to. And you realize, hang on, i might use kadoaba for Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, just for the weekend. And you might think, you know, that's, my weekend sort of fun, outgoing herb sort thing.

Nice. So would you take it at the end of the day? It doesn't affect sleep. You know what's crazy is that we've had so many people report that it actually increases their HRV score, which I was not intending. I didn't make it for that reason, but people are saying it does increase their HIV, Okay. So we can use it end of the day when we're feeling like we need a little lift. Let's say you have it with a glass of sparkling water and a umbrella in there to simulate. Um, and then is there a reason why someone wouldn't use it seven days a week, or are you recommending that maybe three, four days of week is good and take a break?

Um. Well, some people prefer to do like a loading period of like five days on two days off as well. So they might want to. Just to really saturate their body and see what Katowaba can do for them. Cause for some it takes like week or two to notice the effects. For others, they noticed the mood benefits pretty soon after taking it. I remember when I very first tried not the herb in the powdered form, but in a tea form. Because you can get catuaba in tea as well. It's actually a bark. And so when i had the bark for the first time ever, because I was what I call like a virgin to it, like I've never used the catuaiba before, its effects were so pronounced that I I Everything was making me laugh and everything was just pleasant.

Like just, I was in a great, great head space. Nice. Well, Well, because you know conferences, right? You're up, up all day long. And then by the end of the day, the dinners are starting to roll in and you're like, Oh my God, I just want to go back to my room. I'm done. So I'll see if it can carry me through the conference. See how it goes. Well Lucas, this has been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for taking the time and for getting up super early. Like we've seen, you've seeing the sunrise.

She started in the dark and now you've got the sun shining. Thank you for being here. Please let people know where they can find you, the podcast, your website, all the tips. Definitely. No, thanks for the great chat. I knew it was going to be an absolutely fun one and I appreciate the space, It's great to see you evolve and also your platform grow as well. So appreciate that. Um, so people don't want to find me. Probably the best place is YouTube, um, boost your biology on YouTube. Please go over there and just subscribe.

I have an Instagram as. But the, yeah, the YouTube is I'm over a thousand videos now. There's so much great content there. That's amazing. That that's prolific friend. Yeah. Appreciate it. It's great. So it's Boost Your Biology, YouTube, and Instagram. And that is the name of the podcast as well. Instagram is Ergogenic Health, so E-R-G-O, Ergo-genic G-E-N-I-C, underscore health. They can also search my name, Lucas A-o-u-n, it should come up. Then my website is boostyourbiology.com. Right. And then my supplement brand is inbeforesups.com.

Perfect. Got it. Cool. Thanks. Thank you so much. Have an amazing day. Take care.