Think of mushrooms are technology. They're not drugs, they're plants, their technology, think of them as technology when I thought this way, it shifted everything from like, oh, I'm gonna take some mushrooms, right?

And we all these these, these tools have been kind of suppressed and like odds for stoners and for people trying to check out actually, no, They're very, very intense technology.

Freaking beautiful. So what mushrooms do is they amplify everything. Your signal, your vibration gets tuned up. And what does that mean? That means you get more in tune with what's around you.

You feel things, you will physically feel music. you'll physically what the person next to you is going through on mushrooms. It's a type of tuning and vibration raising tool.

I now call mushrooms conscious organic technology because you can commune with them. They are an interface to what is beyond this physical space that we see.

You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Calogli and on Out of the System, hosted by Doctor Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare entrepreneurs back.

Hear from clinic owners, rebels and builders who are creating bold, profitable patient center practices and doing it their way. You're just going to have to strap in because like this is here.

I almost didn't show up because he said I had to wear pants. Just I want to put that out there in the audience. And the podcast studio had walk through a weed shop.

Pretty much. That'll pretty much tell you how this thing is set up. Here we go. So but Brandon and I are good friends. We've known each other for a long time.

He's a brilliant marketer, brilliant observationalist. we're going touch a lot of different things. Were going talk about some psychedelic journeys that we've done.

were going talking about aliens. Because if there's ever a guy that's out of the system, it's you. Thank you, right? That's the biggest compliment. It's I so I'll take it back.

Yeah, because I don't want to give you a compliment So like who are you? What? Coming out to like to get them coming out this month. Okay. What is the book book is called undomesticated?

It' the evolving man's field guy. You got to be careful the hands of guys I'm a flailer. So I' banging things. Sorry audio engineers gonna he's gonna come get mad at you.

He's going to throw something at me Undomesticated, The Evolving Man's Field Guide to Reclaim the Wild Within. And it talks about a healing journey. It's personal development for men who hate personal developing.

Its spirituality for man who got sick at the church. Mm hmm. it's more about getting out of your head and into your body. Yeah. and it tells, honestly, I mean, the way I frame it is I'm the guru.

I am sorry, i'm The Guinea Pig, not the Guru. You and I have grown up and cut our teeth on gurus in the marketing space. Yeah, a lot of work for him. Oh, yeah.

So, you know, I just got tired of that mentality and when I saw it in personal development and spirituality and decided well, I'm going to be the guinea pig.

I am the mouse who mapped the maze. So the entire book is about maturing. Okay, so when you say you're the Guinea pig, what does that mean? When did this start?

This started for me really, the biggest when it started was in 2020 went through a rough divorce. Married 26 years. there was betrayal and decided to divorce.

We divorced amicably, which led me into a path of who the fuck am I? And this was… How old are you? I'm 50 years old at that time. Oh, so you got the who-the-fuck-am-I at 50. You're on the Bud Fox moment at fifty.

That's always a lot of fun. So for 50, it was who am i? and I entered the dating market, right? i'm getting coached by my 30-something-year-old niece and she's like, what's this Tinder thing?

She coaches me and i began to step back into the day. Mine was back in 2018. Yeah, 50 years old, just all my practices fountain. I was like, Oh my God.

Exactly. So here's, so I go down this adventure, right? Updating. And what has to be in a notice is I'm out here in the, in, and dating and, you know, I assume when you go on a date, You know you have dinner and cocktails and great conversation.

If things escalate great, if they don't great. You hug, kiss, good night. Thank you. That was wonderful. Maybe we'll see each other again. and I realized what I, what it picked up on was how much women live in fear.

Men and like wait a minute. This is this is fascinating. They're the low level of anxiety never realized it to look up. It's unbelievable Yeah, that they walk around in a low-level of fear that men never experienced I would say a medium level a fear fair fair they're constantly in cortisol release.

Its and so this this kind of prompted my observer and writer. I'm like, wait a minute, what's going on? I've had instances of my family where the way my, there's been abuse, assault.

And so it was very, even in my own personal family that happened. It just became, I am never going to be that guy. Right? And I would start dates when I sit down and I could kind, you know, get the vibe and look directly at her across the table and say, listen to me.

You will never receive an unsolicited dick pic from me ever. That's too bad. I want one. Well, you might get one, 20 bucks, so you could see the continents.

You could the relief in women. Like seriously? And then there'd be times where I'd walk to them to her car and close the door and she's like, that's it?

Like, yeah, that's it. You're not going to try anything. No, no, I'm not. Which, of course, when you put off that kind of energy is very, very attractive to a woman.

So that whole experience of dating and observing not only myself and dating, but the culture led me down to write about it and say, this is important things for men to hear and talk about.

Masculine presence is a very important thing. That was a part of my rebuilding phase after divorce. Do you ever dive into the whole concept of the divine masculine and feminine?

Yes. Yes, yes. Because I have. So Christine and I were doing a session we were during a journey, which will talk about journeys and she looked at me And she's the one that's helped me realize like I had no idea how many women have been sexually assaulted It's been saying it's insane.

It not absolutely insane and not just want to like multiple times like from different people like, I have no Idea like all this like. I knew it existed because I a daughter, right?

Sure But you don't realize the depth of it. Right? Right. Because, you know, I'm a typical knucklehead guy, right? Or was. I am not anymore. So she looks at me.

We're in this journey. And she looked at and she goes, I need you to have fearlessness. So we're part of a social group that is outside my norm, right?

That's a, it's an artist community, Right. I'm clear. Well, there's one other guy who's there like 61, but he and I are clearly the oldest people there.

Everybody was like 30. It's not the environment that you and were hanging out in. Right? It is a very different environment. That is lovely. She goes, I want you have a fearless.

That's the divine masculine. She goes, but I need you to have reverence. The divine feminine. And I said, oh, because those two combined equal sovereignty.

Most men operate in this unbelievable amount of fearlessness, divine, masculine, But they don't have the balance of the Divine feminine, which means that they are not able to have sovereignty, dominion over their own life, and they're not able to create an environment for people to have it.

So that's mine, like what? I want to hear yours. If it's similar, I'm going to fucking freak out. Oh, it is right there. Because it means dropped at the same time.

We're coming right here. So what, again, and this is what I do, you know, throw myself into situations, that is why I am the guinea pig, not the guru.

Throw myself in situations that make me uncomfortable and I flop around in it and come out when I extract ideas and wisdom and that what you get to read about in the book.

So what I began to notice in the dating space is the most important quality for a man is safety around the feminine. It's safety. She wants to feel safe.

And I begin to look at it. What I do is I'll have an idea and I start to live it for six months and say, is this true? Talking and interviewing. women in all different contexts.

I started experimenting with polyamory, open relationships, swinging E&M and going into these different sexually charged environments and experimenting as well as having incredible conversations with people.

And what would come up? Safety. The idea of safety. That's not what you would normally think of those places. No. Everything's about safety, if there's a denominator for humans, for men and women, it's safety And I write about, so going back to, say, an intimate space, men have to feel like they're not going to be judged for performance.

Women have feel primarily physically safe. Men have have primarily emotionally safe, because as you know from your past business, if a man doesn't feel emotionally save, things don't work.

And so here I am, I'm at a swingers club. I met this club, and I've met a party and noticing, what is my body doing? How are people doing this? And then I'd have these conversations afterwards.

And for safety in an intimate context for a man, that's why they're on ED pills. And the guy was telling me, he was coaching me. It's like, yeah, you should take half a pill before you go in.

Like, I don't want to do that. I want my body to work and enjoy the experience. Yeah, look, the ED clinic just exposed me to this whole space that I never even knew.

Because I know way more about it than I ever thought I would. But like oh, okay. So that became the basis for writing is safety. Oh, like so women are seeking safety and this is how they feel it.

Men are seeing safety, this how the feel. then then let's have that conversation and so that what's that a conversation like so for men, it's Men equate I'm gonna interrupt men equates safety with power that if I'm strong and powerful, then they're going to feel safe.

I find that that actually does the reverse. What do you, what's your… How do define power? That's the main, how do we define it? Okay, so here's how society…

Agency? Is it power over self or others? So that's where we kind of get… It's all of it, it's… It's, well, I'm strong and powerful, strong, big, muscular, right?

I have money, the things, a strong opinion. I believe in this party or that party. It is all of those things and I find that none of them. matter. Absolutely.

It's an energetic emotional core thing. And that's why women test, okay? So that is why buttons get pushed, is that she's trying to test you for safety, it's a subconscious thing that women do to try for your safety.

Are you going to fly off the handle? Are going raise your voice? You're going throw something? And so, alright, we're talking about everything. This idea of safety with women led me down a path to observe and get trained by a BDSM dom.

Oh, fascinating. Yeah. Talk about out of the system. So I met a party with a woman I was dating, went to a part, you know, and it's very sexually open party.

And there's a guy in a room with, with with the massage table and he's doing what's called tastings, which is like a 20 minute thing of that. This is a thing I do in BDSM space.

I had no fucking clue. Yeah, I know, right? Take that anyway you want it. I'm thinking, what is it, cookies and cream? What is that, bourbon? All right.

So, so it's tasting, Right? I had no idea, no interest, No, cool of what the whole BDSM thing was about. It sounded weird to me. Okay, So here I am. Sounds very weird.

And so I go in there. Like, okay. and he's doing a type of massage. It's sensory play, right? He's using these leather gloves with little spikes on them called vampire gloves.

Not meant for pain, meant sensation. So when he dragged it lightly over the body, it's like being tickled a bazillion times with a glove. He is doing this and my friend and I are watching this woman on the table and she is just gripping the table at her breath and she is orgasming and her body is arching just from simple light touches.

No penetration. There's nothing. It's just a massage. And I'm watching this like, holy shit. When this woman was down on the table, my friend strips naked in front of 15 people and jumps on table.

Now she had some very severe sexual trauma that came up, you know, in our dynamic. And I was very hyper aware of, well, for her to strip naked and jump on a table in from a bunch of strangers was not uncharacteristic.

She saw something in that she jumps to the. He begins to do the routine, her same response. Her body is purging. It's, it's responding to this. she's letting go in ways I hadn't seen her do.

I realized I wasn't watching therapy. The Dom looks at me. The dom is looking at, the dom was watching me just intently. He calls me over. And while he's doing, he goes, watch her hands.

he would touch her rib cage and her hand would grip. Because while, He goes listen to her breath. You would Touch part of her buttocks or her back, her ass just arching in the air and she's orgasm and She's releasing and it's just touch.

It's safe touch Needless to say, I hired him on the spot when she was done and I started training with him. And what I learned was the whole idea. And then I was practicing on my friend who visited and he was training me with her and showing me and, and did this work.

I never was clear on the idea of what a dom was or a dominant. You know, there's books and I, I always think of it as something. Yeah. and was never comfortable with it.

Not interested in being dominant over someone. My first lesson with him was branded 80, 90% of the doms out there are fake. There are rapists and they have no clue what this is about.

Got it? Three or four trainings in I call him up. I said, I know what a dom is now. What is it? He's like, what? Like a Dom is a man who is dominant over his sexual energy and a woman can feel that.

And that is safety. Oh my God. So when a, man, so when I would, you know, on a date and the guy's getting a little handsy and feel I hear all the stories, right.

Send in the dick pics. That is undominant. It is leaking masculine energy. Yeah. that's not reservation. There's no restraint there. restraint is, the dominance is you can be fricking butt naked in front of me in my no means no.

And she can feel that. That is so polarizingly attractive for a woman. So that's what I learned in space. I learn to be a dom in the sense of curating an experience in that place and sensory play being a part of that so yeah and so that gave birth to a large bout of writing and observations and conversations.

Absolutely fascinating. I knew we would go places that I didn't have any idea we'd go. And I'm really excited about that. You know, it's so parallel to the things that we've been discovering just about the work that Christine and I have been doing and understanding that the world, the whole purpose of the word is to control you.

control your thoughts, and to make you feel bad about having thoughts outside of the system. Yeah. I mean, from the first day, I will never forget when Bob Rignares and I are close, we were doing company together and Brandon, you responded to an ad.

Yeah, and it was a sales letter and you wrote about getting your kids like it. Was a great sales. Letter. It was your it Was your resume you talked about like?

Getting going out in pajamas and getting like donuts or something like that with the kids and whatever your boys were then I don't know Whatever six and four or whatever they were.

Okay And we're like fuck we got to hire this guy like, you know, just cuz like this is great, right? But the thing that I've always loved about you is you've you always Much to my chagrin many times like he shouldn't be doing that You've always been outside the system.

Your thinking has always done things differently. Where does that come from? Thank you. I know you had your stint where you were working for the Christian adoption agency, but even then you're doing things different.

Does that come from your dad? Oh, it definitely does. What was your Dad's name again? Tom. Definitely my dad. So he was the first undomesticated. My parents were the fist und domesticated people and I got that from them ridiculously, relentlessly.

But it was this idea is what society valued, they would make a joke of purposely. Give you an example. Your dad and your mom. Dad and mom, so dad was a school teacher, mom was an antique dealer.

Mom killed it. She still kills it at 93. she can go buy something literally for $2 and sell it for 200. He does this all day long. It doesn't excite her.

If she, can't make 1000 time off what she buys. And she's, she is a witch. Anyway, So mom and dad. So you got that. You got mom And mom, so dad's a school teacher and mom is an antique dealer.

And they did everything was do it yourself. Everything was hands on do-it-yourself learning how you go buy a book and forget how to do. Mom would go and because she was an absolute savage at resale shops and estate sales, she'd find like this.

I don't know what the brand would be, but some ridiculously expensive dress, you know, that some big brand that women would fawn over. She'd pick it up for 20 bucks or 10 bucks and she'd wear it to a cocktail party.

And they'd come home, my dad and mom, and they would just laugh at how everybody would comment and make sounds about, how do they afford that dress on a teacher's salary?

And so they were in this mix of society, but they laughed at it. They were distanced from, and that's probably where I get it from. So they're above it?

They're were above, not in an arrogant way, But it was like, I see the game. It's kind of like how I survived LA. I'm above. Like, how do you deal with LA?

I mean, it's simple. it is a game, i don't want to play that. i'm not down in the trenches with everybody else, like I am above all observing it, right?

That's how i can… I wouldn't even say thrive, because I freaking thrive. Completely agree. And I exactly the same way. The other part of me is, things have to be very visceral for me.

I've got to experience them physically. So I trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, been doing that eight years, I competed on an international scale. A few years ago, won my first competition.

Congratulations. Thank you. It's really fun, beautiful experience, but I did it because I was fucking terrified. And I don't like, and all the… Yeah, by the way, that's one, you wanna get past a fear really quick, as Joe Rogan says, go fight with somebody in a cage match, like you're gonna get the shit kicked out of you.

Yeah. That was literally it. I had been resisting competition my entire life. It wasn't super physically fit in my younger years and I wasn' competitive growing up.

Dad wasn''t competitive, never watched sports. So it's like hmm, I'm training jiu-jitsu, i want to challenge myself. And i was noticing I was resisting.

Was fearing going in, ''I'm gonna hurt, too fucking old. '' I''m not flexible, blah blah. Like yeah, okay, do it, signed up, trained as well as I, at that time I was training in the coaching modality that I use the transformational psychology and the tool is so effective you can use it with yourself.

You actually don't have to have an exercise processor. So months, six months of training, 6 months working on the head and showed up and won my first match.

And when I walked onto that and there was still fear, there's still terror, walked up when i started that match there's things went blank. I went into a zone, I didn't come out of it until four and a half minutes later in a five minute match.

And I was up seven points and I tapped him, choked him out. Not chocked him but I choked and he tapped. Which I'm like, what the fuck just happened? I don't remember any of that.

How did you get to that state? It was the preparation, it was six months of work. It's visualization, a lot of It was addressing the fears that would come.

I'm literally every day and I'd go and train competition night jiu-jitsu. And again, I am an older guy training jui- jitsu with a bunch of savages getting the ass handed to me.

Then I could see, okay, afterwards, how do I feel? Pissed about this. Feeling afraid. Hesitated here. Come home and process it on paper. What kind of meditation are we doing?

You said visualization, were you meditating? So visualization what I would do is, so in Jiu Jitsu you have a series of moves, you try to package them into a game plan.

Okay. And so what would I do, is I'd walk through my visual gameplan. We start from our feet. I'm going to grab your collar, I am going make sure I own your arm.

If I get that, then I go in for your leg and do a simple take down. Now just rehearse it over and over in the brain. Once I got to this position, i'm gonna rehears what i am gonna do from here.

What's your going to response be? Well, if you do this, I'm going go there. If you this I want to go that. So that's the chess of jujitsu. Okay. We're hitting a lot of things here.

I wanna kind of bring this back because it's really important. It's important for people to understand. The thing that fascinates me is, one, what you just described is through all of these conversations, you're describing starting from a fundamental belief system that's been handed down to you about a particular thing.

Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah, a framework and then expanding it. You had a predisposed disposition about doms. A predesposed disposition about whether or not you can handle being in the ring and fighting.

So you are kind of glossing over like your process. When your processes is you then you go and you suspend your ego and listen. Yes. Is that about right?

I become an observer. I agree with myself, okay, are we going to do this? Yeah, we're going do it. Well, do you agree yourself that you're gonna do or do agree to yourself first and foremost that have a block?

Yes, so the indicator of why I made myself go compete is that I was fucking terrified. Okay. That's it? So then why did you go to learn how to be a dom?

The dom is because I just have genuine love and interest of helping because the coaching work I do, a very big empath. straight honest is when I ended my relationship, you were noticing 50 years of a man who was sexually repressed.

Yeah, I was right there with you. 25 years. Grew up Catholic, then in the church, married, you marry in church to have sex. And then, she and I had a great friendship, great co-parents, we had no sexual chemistry.

Same thing with my first wife. I'm 50 years old, a man off the chain, and like I am going all in. Because I've never explored this part of myself. Never, don't even know.

No idea. So that's why I put myself in scenarios where people were comfortable with sexuality. Why I went to clubs and parties. What's it like to be in an energy of people who don't give a fuck and who are celebrating their sexuality.

Like I need that because I got shame maybe. So that's where it started. Performance, shame, all that stuff, right? And then when going to this and watching this Dom thing, I'm watching a friend and I was very aware of her sexual trauma.

I am watching her release. I just don't want to learn sexual stuff to have sex, even though that's really good and fun stuff. I wanted something bigger than just a thing in a hole, right?

Right. That's me, but that me. Okay, we're talking with doctors. They figured out the context. You know what we are talking about there? They got the visual.

We put it in the footnotes. And that's really kind of a part of why I do these kinds of things. Nothing is casual for me. It's like if I'm gonna do Jiu-Jitsu, I gotta fucking dive in and get really good.

I got to be good at it, just whatever good means, you know, for a guy. So, do you have a brother or sister? I don't even know. Brother and a sister. You have brother and sister, are they the same way as you?

No, absolutely not. This is kind in your DNA? It is me, yeah. Right. Cause you just, you kind of get off on this shit. Oh, I get often where you go down some real cool, which is great.

I love hanging out with you. Yeah. So like I find it incredibly fascinating. And so when you're working with someone and you've got somebody that's blocked, let's say you were dealing with the doctor who's for the most part, they're relatively conservative, right?

But a lot of them are type A personalities. They basically have like, willed theirself to becoming a doctor. Sure. Busted their ass and they got straight A's they'll tell you that, no, it just came naturally, but they worked their off.

Right? Yeah, So then on top of it, like when you present what happens with a lot of people when they work really, really hard to obtain something, they're even more resistant to change.

Of course. It's a principle of investment. Right. Because like the hardest thing we have to do is when the orthopedic surgeons decide to no longer do surgery, They know in their brain for years, it's the least profitable thing that they do and has the most risk.

They get paid $750 or $850 or 950 dollars for an ACL reconstructive surgery. 1100 bucks, 1300 bucks for joint replacement. They got 60 days of follow up.

they take all the risk, right? It's the least profitable thing that they do when they're moving to a cash practice. And they all know that should give it up, and they don't.

Now, if you are coaching them, How would you take somebody through that? What does familiar feel safe? Even though what is familiar is not safe. Say that again.

What is, what feels familiar feels safe, even when what. Feels familiar may not be safe because they've invested in it. It's comfortable. They know what inside and out it's an investment.

And so what begins to happen is like, okay, they got to make a decision. Okay. We can, we've got to de-invest in this character. So here's how it works.

All of us walk around and we have, there's us, There's Matt, and then there is the identities. Matt steps in too. Yep. A few times a week I step into the jujitsu identity.

Okay. Get on the, I stepped in, got my kimono, get in a mindset, step in and I'm ju-jutsu guy. I am not ju jitsu guy when I grocery shopping. Not trying to tap out the lady buying asparagus.

Maybe I should try. Good price. Decent. Put it down Gladys. So there's that. That's what identities do. And we do this all the time, every day. Identities always have a goal, and this is kind of the base of coaching that I do, so what happens is, there is an identity here, what's the specific procedure?

Orthopedic surgeon. It's in the name, I'm a surgeon! So they're a Surgeon, they have an Identity, this how they show up, This is what they do! Part of that identity is doing this specific Procedure, it sounds like, And you're trying to say, Stop it.

Right. Now, they've invested in it, thousands of dollars, 1000s of hours time. This is so familiar. It's the back of their hand. So what they're doing, what you're asking is a de-identification in that particular aspect of the identity.

And so what I would do with someone, and let's say you are coating them and you were saying, Dr. Joe, you or whoever, You got to like stop this and then you get resistance.

Like, why do I got stop? Wait, okay. Okay. Well, then what would I do is, Okay, so when you think this statement, I've got to move away from this particular procedure.

What comes up? What's the emotion? Fear. Perfect. Fear, what's that fear? Scale of one to 10. Oh, it's an eight. Okay, great. Um, how's it negatively affecting your life?

Oh you know, I'm worried about this. Cool. How would you rather feel? I'd rather, feel optimistic. I would rather be peaceful. Then what we do is we just, we go down and we process that, fear and I do about 20 different processes, but they essentially do the same thing.

It's addressing the thought, the resisting thought and the res- resisting emotion. And it's integrating them. Okay. A lot of times what happened, and this is why I went down the road I did with coaching rather than traditional is because most of the self-help stuff that I had been using growing up were focused on mind, mindset.

Give me checklists. Right. Yes. Well, doesn't work very well. I'm a big feeler, man. Yeah. the stuff that was mainstream just wasn't really working. So I found something where you integrate emotions and thoughts and that's where everything changed for me.

And the idea is everyone talks about pushing away from thoughts or I don't want to feel this and I Don't wanna think that and why am I thinking that to the ideal of integration?

What if you can hold both? What two things are true? Have you done human designs? Yes. Okay. Pure generator. You're a pure generator? I'm an easy breezy genius.

I am a 2-4. Your a two-four? Uh-huh. Easy, I've never heard of an Easy Breezy Genius. Yeah, there's not many. Are you not a projector? No. Never heard an EZ Breeze.

No, not an projector. Im an emotional authority. Okay, I'm a civil authority. I've got a split definition. Yeah. Open spleen. Okay. Say open center. Right.

So I feel everything. Yes. Which is amazing to me. By the way, if you don't none of you understand what we just talked about. Don't worry about it. We'll explain a little bit.

OK, so human design is basically astrologically based you giving your date of birth, where you're born, your day, you know, in the city you were born in, the time and the date.

And we've run this, we run on all of our clients now. Beautiful and it's so fucking dead on right because we're you know People get cancer and they have art attacks because they're operating outside of how they design.

They're doing things that they don't want to do, right? So reason why I bring this up is from a human design standpoint you like I was Operate because I am an open spleen which what that means to the people listening is I absorb everything around me.

I'm a chameleon and Right? I can show you right now the conversation I had with my Claude AI, which has a clause called human design coach. And I have this conversation last night.

Yeah. So I, I am a chameleon. I become pretty much what I'm around. Okay. Now that's really good. And it was, by the way, a great survival technique growing up in my house.

100% agree. Because I grew up In such a fucking chaotic house, right? Yeah. That I just was like, oh, it's no big deal. We just like this is what you do.

Right. Great survival tech. You're emotionally navigating, surfing everyone around you. As a friend of mine said, he goes, you probably could have survived Auschwitz.

Like you would have figured out a way to make it work. No. It was a compliment. I'm not Jewish folk. Yeah, yeah. Not that there's anything wrong. Just act like it.

Keep going. So anyway, This whole thing of what you were just talking about, the problem with the gurus is that they tell you their way that has worked for them.

Yes. Very few people talk about understanding the way it works for you. This is a key tenet to what we do at Mavericks. It's a massive differentiator because when we did this, most of my doctors, I'd say 50% of doctors are like, Okay, and then they come in for a dominion day, which is where we break down that we restructure their business in a day.

Yeah. And we start with this and they go, you're this, your this your, this is when you best and blah, blah. They look at me like, how'd you know that?

I go human design. Like really? So now let's design your company based on how you were created. Because every doctor understands this. When that sperm spears, pierces the egg and for pregnant, it fertilizes it.

It is a miracle. Every doctor will tell you that if a doctor tells you it's not America's like, yeah, whatever. It's a Miracle. Okay, and they know that it is not random and that is very special.

Now, I'm not going to say that every single doctor that we work with or I talk to all believe in God. They all have a different level of that. Most of them believe they are created.

I've only met one that's, like a real atheist and I think it was bullshit. But like they all Recognize the beauty and the odds stacked against it for that to happen For the impregnation for the the egg to become fertilized.

Okay so When they start to understand that, when people, I believe that when, people start, to, understand, that they are uniquely designed, it changes all the guru bullshit.

Yes. Because most of the Guru bullshit is manifesting generators as checklists. It's projectors and manifester generators. Like you gotta have a list, like I don't have, a, list every day.

By the way, you want to know what I do? I get up every morning. I, don' take any calls before 12 o'clock. Okay. And I go, sacral, what do you, want me to do today?

That's my life. Precisely the same. And that's exactly what I do. Like the other day, it's like go to Topanga. I was in L. A. and I'm like, okay, I got in the car and never been to topanga because I think that that is what we are thinking about getting out.

So I am like okay. Let's go there. One time I go Ohai. Woke up on a Saturday morning. Christine wakes up. She goes, what are you doing? I said, think we're supposed to go ohai?

She says, yeah, that right. This is how I live my life now. I have struck like, you know, I had to come here this morning and sure, sure. Sure. Right.

Like, yeah, but I Have buffers around it, right? I've got a client in tomorrow. Got a Client in Friday. Go to Japan on Sunday, Right? You know I got some stuff that's organized right like I'm not like You, know not, like the Grateful Dead just kind of like woohoo, there is an agenda sometimes.

Yeah. But it is, it's jazz. is what it is. Improvisational jazz. It's improv jazz, right? But you're moving within it. You're playing. But most people are taught to be orchestrate, orchestras.

My life is I am designed to improv. When I figured this out, I literally have a planner, didn't bring it with me. I have planner that I've designed based on human design.

We run through human design. That's a great idea. Yeah. Don't anybody steal it. It's mine. So I have like a whole series of questions and we create it, boom.

I've got it to the place where I'm like actually taking their AI imprint to create their planner for them. Oh, I love that. Last night I asked my AI, around my human designed AI to write me what's my operating system for Brandon.

Because I came up with the new, you'll love this. This came to me when I was just doing meditation, smoking a little cannabis, was my sacral is my sight.

Yep. Because I just had to end a briefly little dynamic I had with a woman because I wasn't trusting my sacral. Because my sight was like, oh wow, there's lots of chemistry and she's beautiful and all this.

The sacra was, like get the fuck out of this now, right now. And I was not paying attention. I listened to the whole goddamn, I listen to it all the time.

Yeah. So it's, most of the things in my life that I would categorize as unfortunate or disruptions or problems was me not listening to my sacred. Absolutely.

Was me overriding my secret. You know, it's not like my ex-wife Sarah's ever gonna hear these, right? Like, she's my first wife, we're college sweethearts, and we were married 25 years, married, We were together 28. We have three kids, beautiful kids.

And maybe they'll hear this, but, like, I don't want anybody to think, Like I'm speaking ill of her, But we should have never been married. Right. I've run her human design.

Oh yeah. I mean, but you know, you do things, like I totally didn't, I remember there was a period I'm like, think I should keep seeing her. But I didn' want to upset her because that was my programming.

Sure, of course. Because I grew up in a house that, it was chaotic and I could make everybody laugh and make everything fine. So I just was, the guy that could just make it right.

My dad could handle everything, right? Right. But so going back to this, but we most, I find that 90% of people, 95 I'm going to say 95% people operate outside of the human design and that's where the friction comes from.

Oh, 100% agree. The tools, the things that were handed. I have another saying, don't steal this. This came to me. It's going be on the billboard. Steal it.

Is that productivity books are all about how to be a better slave. Oh, that's brilliant. Productivity books, management books. How to be a better slave.

Absolutely. We're in AI right now. The momentum is incredible. It's going to change everything. But as many dollars and time I've invested in productivity literature, invested and self-help literature.

Oh I'm just learning how to better be slave, That's what I am doing. Yeah that is the problem with it. I think everything is designed, going back to the original thesis, if you will, going back to the original statement a couple of minutes ago, the whole system is designed to keep you enslaved.

The entire fucking system. Is designed. To keep. You enslaved talk about political parties. Yeah. Right. Republicans, Democrats. I'm a Republican. Republic, I can't even say that I know I was trying to figure out how to put in libertarian socialist in there But an independent but you can but like I'm not right.

They're both full of shit. Yeah, right Yeah They both like you were just drawing out both of them as I always say you cannot sell heaven unless you got a hell Exactly, we are in a polarity game.

So if I want to raise money I have to paint somebody as evil. Exactly. Okay, you need a villain. I am convinced like Hillary and Trump like sit in the corner laughing.

Oh, about all the money they're bringing in. There's something to it. So chapter two of my book, I'm sitting with mushrooms one night. Psychedelic mushrooms, not the kinds that you put on pizza.

You could put these on pizzas. But you wouldn't remember the pizza, so. To your point, I'm sitting with mushrooms one night, okay? I am lying in bed, lying down, face mask on, and I start to get these downloads.

This is what happens to me regularly on mushrooms. I get massive downloads, it's unreal. Start having communication with all different types of beings.

We'll get there. And for two hours, I'm being told that, Brandon, you're playing a game. This is called the Earth game and it's the toughest fucking game in the galaxy and you signed up for it.

And that shifted everything. That's chapter two of the book. Been like, wait a minute, this is a I'm playing a game and like, yeah, the game is polarity.

And the games is roles and characters, just like a first person shooter game your boys used to play. It's just, like metal gear. Like, oh, so I took that.

Okay, let's play this out for a while. What if it is? Okay. Then how does this work? Well, then the idea of villains and saviors and victims came up. Well in any good story of Hero's Journey, you've got to have all three.

You have to. We can't write copy without it. So I was being showed and what Clayman is like, we're playing a hero's journey game. That's what we are doing.

And so you got to have all these characters. And if you're the hero of your own story, then it becomes playable. We get less invested in whether it's this political person, or this guru, this religious guy, we get more attached to and invested into the ideology and we realize, okay, polarity here.

How much do I want to invest in? So that's when it became playable and it got fun. That's what we kind of talk about through the whole book. So I'm walking, I mean, Phoenix, Arizona, and I have an LA Dodgers hat.

I've always loved the Dodger's, right? And with this, the journey work I've realized, like, there was this whole thing that, I mean, even though I'm a White Sox fan, it's like a group of Whitesox fans, right?

Like group in Chicago I am a white socks fan. Cause I have to be different, Right? I can't do what everybody else does. Um, but I always, when the Dodgers and the Yankees were playing for the world series in the late seventies and early eighties, was always rooting for The Dodger.

Somebody was like why are you rooting to the dodgers? You're rooting the yankeez. I hate New York. And I'm sorry if you're from New York, but just deal with it.

Like a lot of people say they hate New york. So just fucking deal. Okay. It's a smelly city. Um, and I really don't like the Yankees. And so there, okay.

If you want to unsubscribe, go ahead. I think I met the gym and i've got my Dodgers hat on and the Dodger's were playing the Diamondbacks that week, right?

And it was the early part of the season. You know, there are Tribals and some guy comes over and he's like, What are you doing wearing that Dodger's hat in here?

He's just railing me. And he goes on and I look at him and go, it's a fucking hat, get over it. He was like, why? Right, right. What do you think about the Dodgers?

I go I don't know, I just wear the hat. It's the Hat. and he looked at me like like what do mean you're just like you don' You don''t invest? You think it is bad that Shea Ohtani is getting 700 million dollars?

Good for him. He's great. Fucking make him a billion. I don't care. Like I didn't give a shit. It's not my money. We get so, like I used to get invested about, oh, I hate the Cubs, right?

You know, the White Sox are the real team. They're a working class team, and when they'd have the crosstown rival, when we first started doing it, you know and Bob and I would be like, yeah, let's beat the fucking Cups.

And we may suck this year, but let us beat fucking the cubs. it's idiotic. Its so idiotical. This whole thing of like okay, Well, you know, what party are you voting for?

I'm like, it's none of your goddamn business. I don't care. Like, I care, but I am not going to have this discussion with you. Or the other one is religion.

Oh, here we go. Okay, so I was raised Catholic. You know I went through the 12-step program to detox out of it. That was an altar boy, right? Went through that whole thing.

Went to my phase of like is there a God? Then I had a moment where I gave my life to Jesus and got baptized and did the whole things just like you did.

He raised my kids in the church and it was nice and wonderful. And then I got out and I'm like… Is that all there is? Right. I was like, come on, seriously?

Like, I just spent… A splinter in your mind. Ten years in this system and was going bankrupt and they wanted to send me to Dave Ramsey's financial consulting?

My bankruptcy filing is 36 pages, dude. I owned a real estate investment company in 2010. We buy into systems and we have no fucking idea of how much they entrap us.

There's a chapter where I, there's diagram. So I was in this church I referred to for eight years. Okay. I got recruited like it was like 20, 21 years old.

My sister was it. She got in it because she was an abusive relationship. And she said, the church saved her relationship and my sister. Great. Good for you.

Fantastic. Yeah, good for me. Like I get in, my sisters and I were very close growing up. But she's the only one I really trusted and was close to my family.

You know, I'm 20 years on. What the fuck I am doing? I go there, people are just love bombing me, encouraging, like, okay, I'm going to enter this container and see what happens.

And so I got baptized, little thing, and enjoyed it. Got in it, got married in, but after a time I started to notice the levers. Shame, fear, guilt. Because when you come from the world that you and I come, from where you write marketing, copy and you're in marketing.

You understand how you manipulate people to get to do what you want them to. Yes. I mean, for a living, in an audience. You can put Tony Robbins pitch and Billy Graham's pitch right next to each other.

And they're all the same trigger. Sure. Exactly. I've studied them. Yeah. Extensively. You're amazing live and I get it. Thank you. So I'm in this and…

I am glad you said I was not a mate. Glad you clarified live. We'll edit that out there, but you're that too. Alright, so then I got out of this thing and I'm in the darkened end of the soul and i'm trying to figure out who the fuck I am after eight years of being in a cult.

Now I married and you get married to have sex and, I sincerely love this person and we still have a great relationship. You get out and like, wait a minute, who am I now?

Now i am de-invested in, the archetype of a good Christian man. This is chapter three. Which is basically a weak guy. The good Christian man is, he doesn't make, by the way, this is a lot, I highly recommend you listen to Erwin McManus and then what was Wild at Heart, right?

They basically emasculate us. Don't have too many demands, don't ask too much of her. Erasure, self-erasure. Right, so don' put yourself in a situation where you could be tempted.

right right like like we can't shame your sexuality right don't yeah it's just ridiculous i call it the obedient believer it is an archetype that we're handed so anyway now so i've been performing this for eight years the obedience believer this archetypes that's when he came to work for us right yeah yeah i was out i'm like who the fuck am i now yeah bob's going his through thing we've got christian business daily renegade christians entrepreneur we are doing all these things so then I'm out of this thing.

I live in my life. A few years ago, our mutual friend, Perry Marshall, I met one of his events and, you know, we're doing a roundtable thing and everybody's going around talking about businesses and what I kind of like, things come to me from the side.

They're not direct. And I start writing this diagram. And it was a diagram of an ideology and how they function. And I look at this thing and I walk up to Perry and this is based on a conversation Perry had a week ago.

So I'm having this conversation with Perry on the phone about ideologies. I'll share it in a minute. He actually gave me the last segment of it. We had just had this conversation and I write this and show this, I wrote this little diagram and said, hey Perry, what do you think of this?

This is what we talked about the other day. He goes, do a presentation on it in 20 minutes. That is so Perry. Perry's a good friend of ours. Basically wrote the ultimate guide to Google AdWords and that's basically where it all started.

But here's what I discovered about being inside the belly of the beast. This is why I'm the guinea pig, not the guru. I lived inside of a cult and here is how they operate.

Number one, cults start with ideas. It's a good idea to want to have a relationship with and the idea of creator or God or Allah or whatever you want do.

And I want it to be more spiritual. Now it begins with an idea. Ideas evolve into ideals. Ideals become almost unreachable standards. Yes, and that keeps you in bondage.

When we get to be like Jesus, when we go to heaven, it's always outside of you, always separate from you. Check this out, ideals become idols. Now that becomes personified.

In the church I was a part in, there were titles and there was hierarchy. And this person was called a prophet. Oh no, that elder over there, he's just like Jesus.

So now you got idols, you've got physical representations who are calling the shots. Idols then become identity. I adopted the identity of the obedient believer, the good Christian man.

That was my identity and that identity I invested in. And the investment is what keeps the whole thing spinning until disruption comes, until the elder who helped found the church, which is thousands of people worldwide, wrote a letter, a 30 page letter.

And that letter was saying was meant to go just to the leadership of the Church and it got leaked and went viral and thousands and people left because The system of investment in the ideology, in identities broke.

What the letter said was what everybody was feeling, what was afraid to say, and it broke it. It broke the Ideology. And when there was enough consciousness and momentum for the people outside of the leadership, The whole thing collapsed.

Never was the same again. Yeah. Same thing. And by the way, folks, this happens in everything. Everything. Politics. Happens in sports teams. Yes. politics.

Totally. You know, what do you mean you got a friend who's a Packers fan if you're a Bears fan? Like, What are you doing? Yeah, like. What do you mean you're just going to the Hall of Fame at Lambeau?

You're a Bears fan, you don't do that. I'm like, why don' I want to go to The Hall Of Fame At Lambo? It sounds really cool. Like it sounds like a really old stadium, I wanna go check it out.

It's just amazing to me how we are so, it's not it shouldn't be, because I am a marketer, right? I can make Jews Muslims, Muslims Christians, and Christians Jews.

Sure. Okay? Literally you've seen me speak, pretty good. Pretty awesome. But we just, we adopt ideologies because there's safety in numbers. Yeah. And then there is joy in hating.

It's so much fun to hate somebody. Well, okay, I hate Alabama fans. So that's, you know, that okay. Is that justified? I don't know about Alabama fans.

No, actually, I really like Nick Saban and I just feel sorry for Alabama Fans because Kalen DeBoer's just, no matter how much he wins, he's never going to add up to Nick's Sabin.

But I mean, a joke about it. I hate Alabama. Fans. Tennessee fans, now that is another story. Yeah. Nope, joking. But yeah, it makes us feel so comfortable to be a part of something.

Yeah, so identities always have a goal. Wouldn't you say your jujitsu thing is kind of like your identity? Completely. So it's not like you're not doing this.

I'm in a fucking cult, dude. Look, I got a tattoo sleeve, and I shaved my head. That's the way it was with CrossFit, by the by. Crossfit is a total fucking cunt.

It's great. And then I've got injured all the time, because I can't do this anymore. So here's the thing about ideologies. They can be positive or negative.

I would offer that my jujitsu community is an expansive, positive ideology, at least for me. Would you have said that about the church before, though?

I did when I entered it. But you're much older now, right? And so you understand. Yeah, like, okay, entered with full enthusiasm at 20, and then got out in my 30s.

And I outgrew the container. I outgrew my container of marriage. You outgrow your container. I've outgrown different business things. We enter containers and then we leave them.

The problem is when we get stuck in a container, which is an ideology, we can't leave. That's what happened to me in the church. So I do this talk about containers in our mastermind.

And so I use the example of when you buy Like to plant flowers like I I can't fucking plug in a hammer, you know, I'm Not sure like, i'm not sure what you do with a drill like You know like it looks like It sounds really cool, but you, know But I, can grow shit I got shit outside right very cool okay so I Can grow flowers and I could grow grass and i like that like gazelle you like i enjoy I don't like do it all the time like but yeah I because I travel so much sure but I love i love flowers So you go to the, I love the spring.

You go and you get the flat of flowers and then you put them into a pot. Yeah. But you can't put him in too big of a pod. Tell me. Because the water, the roots have to suck up the waters.

So when you water in, The roots pull it up. The water and the. Evaporates out. Okay. out or the soil gets contaminated and the roots get rot and they die.

Okay. So you can't put things in, and I do this whole thing when we start to work with people about containers. Yeah. Because everyone's like, I want to go from $25,000 in cash based services to 250, 000. Sure.

Well, that's a, it's difficult container wise. Now a guru would be like yeah, you do it. Right. Give me your credit card. Whatever to give me the credit card, but you know So I'm like, let me explain to you what I want you to do is all I what you do Just go from 25 to 40,000. Yes, and then I've got a transplant need to another when you're gonna go From 40 to 60 thousand that because if I move you from the 25, 000 package to container to the $60,00 package your business is gonna die.

Mmm from root rot. Love that. Okay. Beautiful. And you're, as the size of the container grows, you have to put other plants in there. Yes. You have have a thriller, a spiller, or a filler.

Kind of you've heard that whole thing. Like a Thriller is like a, Thrilla, A Spiller Is something that goes over the edge. A filler is just some kind of plant that fills up the space and you got a thriller.

That's like the centerpiece that it's, like tall. When you ever go to like Home Depot and yeah, You buy the thing, there's a Thriller a Filler and a Spilla.

That's your business in maturity. Interesting. Most people try to start their businesses at that level. Okay. You just start with, go get the flat of the poinsettias, or not the points, the pansies, and put them all together in one pot.

Love that. And then as they grow, move them to another pot and move into another. That's a beautiful analogy. Thank you. I get paid for this stuff. So I got paid well.

Containers. The reason why I share that is I outgrew My container with my first wife. I agree with. My second wife, okay, and At some point I'll do a full dissertation on that.

It's not time yet. I can tell you that Both are amazing ladies. Both. Are wonderful ladies, but they weren't growing at the pace I'm the type of plant that needs new containers all the time and it's just people like the people around me they grow as fast as I do Okay.

And they were happy in the size of the container that they are in. I think that happens to a lot of people. They know that if they move into the containers, it could become a better plant, but it feels risky to them to go into that.

What happens if it doesn't work? What if I get transplanted the wrong way? They don't give me enough water or fertilizer, right? But the system is really kind of predictable.

You know, like, so anyway, that's my, I think that, you know you and I, mean I'm not surprised that you got divorced, given the environment, the age you get married.

I mean, fuck I got married at 24. Um, i'm happy that your guys still have a great relationship. Yeah. But I don't have one with either. Okay. You just, y'know, it was excruciating.

Divorce sucks. It's awful. There were events around it that made it even more excursionating, And it's chapter one, just so you know, the introduction of the book is me standing at the clerk court on my birthday filing divorce papers.

And she looks at me, and when we're done, she goes, happy birthday. That's how the books starts. So yeah, it was funny. The irony is, yeah. But, but yeah…

But maybe it wasn't happy birth day. Yeah, It was, was my rebirth day, so I talk about it. But no, I just decided, the stories I've heard, both my boys are adopted.

They already have issues with abandonment, mom, all that kind of stuff, they may never know they're biological parents. So I wanted to make sure that we could keep something intact as amicably as possible.

How have they done through all this? It was a rough 2020. 2020 was the divorce. Alex was in a really bad car wreck, right? He literally died on the operating table and came back.

And he has a complete out-of-body experience we can talk about. But both my kids are very tapped. They're both really tapped in? Tapped in. So I'm the cool dad.

I do psychedelics with my kid. How old are your kids now? 24 and 20. Cool. So, how's that been? Fantastic. Had they been able to kind of reconcile some of the stuff in their past when they were in the orphanage?

Because you guys, Russia? Yeah, one from Russia, and one domestic Illinois. And luckily, it's kind like Russia. Domestic Illinois, yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Have you seen the balance sheet of Illinois? It's kinda like a lot like Russian. But through the whole thing, through The Holdobores, And again, we divorced amicably.

We split everything. I made sure she was secured in place with my youngest, you know, and then it was me. They saw dad raw. There was no emotional, there wasn't like, I wasn' trying to be the stoic soldier.

It wasn''t trying be a typical man. Oh, just gotta suck it up. No, that was a fucking mess. That was a mess too. And I allowed them to be a mass. We cried together, the three of us, because I knew it had to happen.

Yeah. Since then, it's been great. There's things we still talk about and bring up, and I will do some of my coaching work with them when they're open to it, which has been very useful for them.

But that first year, 2020, was the rip the bandaid off year. That the divorce, oldest son almost died in a car wreck and youngest one went to the hospital, or ideation.

So it was rough year and- Wow. And that's when I was introduced to psychedelics. So let's talk about the psychedelic. Yeah, because I want to dive into this.

People that listen to this, they know that I'm a big fan of them. We've about 30 of our doctors have gone to do sessions. Mike Seller is kind of the we joke.

He's the company shaman. And for the record, we call this medicine. You know, obviously there are, I have to get the legal disclaimer. Of course. There are some states that are frowned on it and others do not.

Here's what I will tell anybody right now that you're having an issue with this part of the conversation. I encourage you to go listen to the Andrew Kuberman podcast.

about the data and the scientific data behind the use of psychedelics and fighting PTSD in military and first responders. And if anything, what I want you to do is I wants you understand that maybe your belief system as it centers around the uses of things like psychedelic MDMA, things that might be a belief systems that was given to you without any research.

Because I will tell you, I was really resistant. And then I do what my doctors have taught me to do. And that is, go read the papers. Motherfuckers, you've taught how to read fucking scientific papers and I fucking hate you for it.

Cause I can read a paper now. I'm like, fuck, I've not fallen asleep. Wow. But you read this, do you the studies? The data is undeniable. Now, so we're going to let them go do that on their own.

Yeah. Then there's our individual stories. Yes. So I grew up in an unbelievably emotionally abusive household. I never knew which mother I was going to get.

I didn't know if I was going to get the happy mom or I going get them angry mom, or the condescending mom. And after my dad died, 13, it was kind of, It was a little bit worse.

Then thank God she got a boyfriend and then she was never around, right? And so, and both my parents dealt with a trauma situation where one of their parents died at a very young age.

So that creates a whole breaking the system. I don't even know the scientific. One of my doctors had told me, Hey man, you look a little stressed out.

Like gave me some mushrooms. I'm like, wow, this actually works better than the SSRIs. And then that began my journey. Then a year later, I go to the session and I do the and it was, go back and listen to them and run them through chat and have the transcripts, it's amazing to me.

What happens when you get the ego out of the way? It's amazing the truth that has been inside you that comes out Like I'm a vastly different person. You've known me 15 years.

Oh, yeah, I was an asshole I wouldn't call you an ass hole you had moments, but we all have moments. We all had moment. Yeah. Well, okay. Thank you You're welcome.

I thought you were gonna agree with me. No fucker But I mean, I was a mess. We all have our moments. Yeah, we all had our moment. I'm a vastly different person.

Like, ask my team. Ask the people that are close to me in their life. They're like, We don't even recognize you. The work that has happened to be in the last 15 months is not possible without the use of medicine.

I could wholeheartedly say the same thing about me last six years. We still do journeys. Like, Christine and I'll do journey. Well, we do journies with our team members if they want to do them.

I've got a team member that wants to a journey in this week. So for me, it has been, and look, all the relationships in my life are not repaired. My kids still don't talk to me.

I probably, I don' think I've ever shared that one publicly before. They're very mad with me about leaving my last marriage. And there's a lot of residual that came from, you know, before, because of I was my mom, right?

But here's the thing. We don''t understand how much trauma we all had and how we bring that forward. Mm hmm. I have doctors that say, You want me to go see Zeller?

I had a great life. My dad was like the all-American dad. I have a family. No trauma. They call me two weeks later going, Oh my God, I forgot all about all these things.

Holy shit. Yeah. Like, oh my god. Thank you, Matt. like they call be crying. Yes. Orthopedic surgeons type a personalities that like one survivor Island, right?

You know, they'll, there'll be like I'll beat a conference. Can we go have lunch? And they just start weeping going. Oh, no idea. Why I made these decisions this way.

I just yesterday, I did a coaching call with Perry's new assistant. Just probably don't want to mention her name. Anyway, so, and because I wanted to demonstrate, here's the type of coaching I do.

Perry wanted know, can I, do it for like big events? Can I it do for audiences? Which is yes. And so I said, let me do an example with you to show you how it works.

So I did it with her and we were processing grief. She was getting really upset about her dog is dying. He had this dog, she's had it 11 years, dog has cancer, dogs going to die.

she was feeling these big emotions. and so we're processing this. We're, we are half an hour or 30 minutes into this and her whole countenance change.

She begins rocking in her chair, her body's lighting up, like, okay, what's going on? And what happened is what had started with grief around my dog's gonna die too.

I was fucking abandoned growing up by my family and I'm fucking mad. Oh my God. Like, oh, here we go. No, let's lock in. And that's the shit we get to.

We think it's this thing over here, but healing is not a lateral move. It's an organic move, and so what may start with the dog who's gonna die is like, motherfucker, you abandoned me.

And I gotta process rage and anger. How dare you abandon me? Exactly. So I hear you. That was me with my… I go to my session with Mike, I'm like we're gonna deal with a bankruptcy, we'll deal my mom, right?

Boom, right. As soon as he takes me through the meditative process, bam, I'm right back in the green room where my father died and boom, he drops dead immediately.

Right. And I see how little Matty boy took over and he became the leader. I tell people I had Tom Brady on the bench and it was like I was letting Brian Hoyer play the quarterback.

Understand everything from there. I'm like in an instant in and instant Brandon. You could I understood the whole fucking thing and I was like, oh my God, I Literally you on the audio I literally go Holy fucking shit.

Oh my god For 30 minutes. Wow. I saw everything. I saw why businesses failed. i saw when my marriage to Sarah failed, I understood why my kids, i had a difficult relationship with my children.i understood, why i kept my mom at bay, i understand why I had very little relation to my brothers and sisters, even though I wanted it, I understood how that little, that version right there took over and just tried to make sure that everybody was taken care of.

He took on every burden because it was how he could show value. The savior and then I see we did another session and we see how I was bullied as a kid and I Was my friends would be like they just like run and leave you like playing hide-and-seek and Then you'd be gone Okay, right.

So I saw all these patterns in my life that I'd completely forgotten about Brandon Completely forgot about could see all These patterns of my wife will no wonder why I blow up relationships before they come to their end because I want to be the one in control.

Mm-hmm And like, here's the thing, I was never beaten. I never was physically, never sexually abused. Right? Like I don't have any of that. But trauma is trauma.

Yeah. Whether it's capital to your lower case, it is Trauma. It's trauma, Traum is all relative, right? You touch on something that I think it's important specifically for men to hear because my observation is the biggest fear a man can have, the most terrifying fear for a men is being perceived as weak or perceiving yourself as week.

And so that's why there's resistance around the idea of therapy and emotions and feelings. I've done a fuck ton of therapies. Sure. It took you something to break yourself into it.

I've been doing therapy for 20 years. Beautiful. Lovely. Congratulations. But it was bullshit therapy. People should be assigned to therapists at birth.

They should give them MDMA and mushrooms. Starting at the age of eight. By three. On a side note, ayahuasca, okay. The medicine woman I use which I met in a dating app which i learned from mushroom songs which we'll get into She said that when she was training as a medicine women in peru Says the mothers who are nursing their children put a drop of ayahuasca on their nipple and they begin to true to Put the medicine into children at a very young age great fascinating.

Anyway, let's do that All right, but you want me to put on my nipples now or for later. I mean cameras are rolling Thank you. Okay people have to give us 20 bucks and it's hard.

They've got to come out then. Oh and all that It's just I can feel the sexual tension So no, it's derision. It's rage. Disgust. So this so the mush so that the cracking open so, the fact that you like you're embracing the emotional aspect of it, which, you know, there's the mental there is the emotion, like we were talking about earlier, most of the I think the self help stuff has been in the brain.

And which, for guys like us who are more somatic and they feel, you know, delving into that world. Mushrooms, psychedelics, molly are a wonderful tool to get there.

When you're not used to getting there! It's impossible to go there without it. I mean, I wouldn't say impossible. It is pretty hard. Because we have such deep programming.

Yeah. So like, where do you begin? What are some of the things that have come to you in your sessions? Oh, dear Lord. Okay, so I was introduced to mushrooms in 2020. Of course, I'm in LA, my aunt visiting and I am on a dating app and All Good Stories start with a Dating app.

And I met… All good stories and over, for men over 50, AllGoodStories start, with, i was on Tinder. Yeah, okay. so i'm on DATING app, and i meet this wonderful woman named Shanti, And we have been friends and…

Wait a minute, wait a moment, Wait A minute. Shanty. Yes. shantylux is her name. 40s you got a fucking thing. I know her. Oh, she's amazing. Absolutely Reddish she changed her hair color.

She's absolutely fucking amazing She lives in Orange County. Okay, keep going. Yeah She is so cool, I love the shit of her she is the one who introduced me to mushrooms So I'm telling her everything's going on my family and I've talked about my kids and and there's there is ideation and And she was like have you ever done mushrooms like no, so she flies in and And my son and I, who is my, son who was 15, and we do mushrooms in my living room in Colorado.

And, my sun, he was going through depression. He was on SSRIs. Is that her? Hold on. No. Damn. No, no. If that was no, bro. You know, okay. Okay. Anyway, like, wow.

Yeah, but she does everybody. So she comes in, I do my first mushroom journey 2021 February. And I did it primarily for my son. My son has this tremendous vision for his life.

Now he was addicted to alcohol. I had no clue. Which one? My youngest. He was 15, 16, 15-16. And he was addicted to alcohol. I had no idea. You know, he had really taken the divorce very hard, and he wasn't in a really rough place.

Bleeding from whatever can I do for you. So we do mushrooms together. he has this amazing vision for his life that comes out of this mushroom. He starts microdilting, takes himself off his own medication.

This is great. Tells his counselor via Zoom meeting, that yeah, I did mushrooms and I'm microdosing and like… my ex who is a nurse freaks out like, oh my God, I'm gonna lose my license because we're giving our kid mushroom.

I said, no, it's all my decision. So I get on with counselor and the counselor's boss. And I say, listen to me very closely, that I will go before any judge and I'll go for any court and that will defend this decision to the death because this this, decision, to go on mushrooms helped my son saved his life.

Yeah. He took himself off the drugs. Okay. Never heard, never heard anything about it again. So that was my first intro to psychedelics. What happened after that, was quite fascinating.

Over time, you know, it was doing mushrooms for the healing work, the going inward, raising the vibration, that the trauma excavation, all of it beautiful, very, powerful.

I met another woman, we became very very close friends and we started doing mushroom together. Two or three journeys in, We were doing much about every two months.

and she was insatiably curious like I was. When we started doing this together, two or three journeys in, something very interesting began to happen. She began channel, she began pick up on other beings, entities, things coming through.

And every one of our journeys, this would begin to happened. And we got better and better. We actually operated as a team. I was the receiver. My focus, my intention in a mushroom space, tuned her like a radio.

It was literally like turning channels on a Radio, picking up. You want to listen to jazz? You wanna listen the blues? Listen to a talk show? That's what it was like.

We're the reverse. Christine's a tuning fork. Tuning fork! She's the tuning for on the… It's going to be really interesting when we do mushroom together.

I'm looking forward to it because I haven't found anyone that tapped in since my friend. Yeah, you wait. Okay, I love it. So we began to do this over the course of three, four years and we had Amazing beings show up and come through.

When you say amazing beings, someone who's not listening to this is going, let me go listen to the Jazz station. Right, right, I know. So here's what mushrooms do.

Mushrooms are an amplifier, they're an energetic amplifier. And they melt the ego. Well, got to be careful how we define ego. So let's pause for that for a minute.

Think of mushrooms are technology. They're not drugs, they're plants, their technology, think of them as technology when I thought this way, it shifted everything from like, Oh, I'm gonna take some mushrooms, right?

And we all these these, these tools have been kind of suppressed and like odds for stoners and for people trying to check out actually no, there are very, very very intense technology freaking beautiful.

What mushrooms do is they amplify everything. So your signal, your vibration gets tuned up. And what does that mean? That means you get more in tune with what's around you.

You feel things, you will physically feel music. you'll physically, feel what the person next to you is going through on mushrooms. It's a type of tuning and vibration raising tool.

I now call mushrooms conscious organic technology, because you can commune with them. They're an interface to what is beyond this physical space that we see.

there's plenty of actual scientific data around that as well as we can go down woo-woo and that, but I'm going to stick to what I've experienced and what's been solid.

So in this space, the veil is being thinned and my focus, if I began to focus in on we began to hold the intention of like, well, what about extraterrestrials?

What about God? what About angels? And so we begin to kind of hold this space. And my friend, when I were going to readers, we were gonna do tarot and we're going channelers and like getting readings.

We were really in this stuff for a while. Then we go back into mushroom space and read kind play in that. What happened was, is for hours on end, there would be beings coming through.

There would beings that would inhabit. The first being that came through and my friend would full body channel them and it was always permission based.

It wasn't like possession as she's like, she would describe what's happening. Yeah, this is not demonic stuff. No, no, not at all. I've seen this myself.

Everything's permission-based. Oh, there's someone. She would sit there. We'd be in that state, we're about an hour drop in. Okay, Brandon, is there someone here?

Like, okay, cool. they listened to what I said. Whenever she felt something was a little bit negative, I called it forth and I say, hey, what do you hear for?

It was literally like you're walking through a bus station and like people are coming up to you like, Hey, you want to tell, okay, who are you? You know, where are from?

it's that. And so what began to happen was, is one of the first civilizations we met was the civilization of a water-based community of What are we, what are, were they LeMariens?

I don't think it'll matter. We never figured out what they were, but they basically what, they said, and they, we're early on in our journey stages. He says, We're here as insurance because we were new at what we we are doing.

Okay. What do you mean insurance? We just make sure everything goes smoothly because what you're doing is you are calling in connections and there's infinite connections.

And we'll just, make, sure. So they are a water base and what was very interesting, What they began to do, how they would channel is they took over my friend's body that took over, but they used her body to communicate.

She would begin speak, she would began popping and speaking in and talking a hundred thousand miles an hour, things that she couldn't do outside of the space.

And she was actually channeling these water-based beings and they loved, they love her. They loved playing with her, body. But like, we don't have ears.

We don' have a nose. There were, there were gills. you know, morphing beings and they would show up very frequently and They would communicate with us and said, yeah, we're here for insurance.

We help you channel your energy and talk to others. So that was one. Then the spirit guides came through. We've had some interesting beings come through and it was fascinating.

But most are these beautiful, divine, they're spirit-guides, angels. What would you say to somebody that's listening? in this right now going, I don't want to fucking listen to spirit guys.

I just want go, i just, just wanna break through some trauma. Do I have to listen spirit, guys? Break through trauma? No, so my experience has been unusual in mushrooms.

Well, yeah, that would make sense because you're an unusual guy. Have known you for a long time. You're a very odd, different, unusual, guy, you haven't figured it out yet.

People, Brandon's a little bit different. A little different? So yeah. So now that's extremely common for me and mushrooms, but when I go into a mushroom space…

I would tell you that we have some I can't wait to do a journey with you. Let me put it to you that way, because I know the chemistry that you and I have, obviously, just sitting here, we've always had, boom, like we didn't talk to each other, what, five years?

Kind of the phone was like, fuck, We gotta go. It's been an hour. I gotta catch a flight or something. But I would tell you that when you first start with doing the mushrooms, you're going to get some breakthroughs.

And if you follow the path, You just might learn a few things about yourself and your programming. that then you would realize that maybe what branding is saying doesn't sound all that far-fetched.

Right. I mean, once you do something, you're like freaking… I'm all in. You started five. And I jump into the deep end of the pool. Yeah, without floaties.

And I flap around and I almost drown, I cough and sputter. Then I get out and sit on the edge and said, okay, what did I learn? What was that about? But that's the only way I know how to do things.

Yeah. I enjoy it. So we jumped in the water and we did this for four or five years consistently. Aliens? Oh, we talk aliens for sure. Let me be clear, the first year, year and a half, The psychedelic work I did was all around trauma.

It was around pain. What was some of the trauma that you let go? It's abandonment as a child. You love your parents. I love the fuck out of my parents, they're great.

But I have no memory of mother interaction with her growing up. Oh yeah, I remember you telling me that because that's just the way she was wired. So my mode of operon in growing-up is chasing.

You wanted something. You chase it. Yeah, that sounds to me. Chase the feminine, you chase business. you Chase money. It's amazing how you and I are similar.

We are very similar, we're very terrifying. No, because that's me, I chase women, chase money, Chase success, when I am a receiver, my human design is, i'm a reciever.

Exactly. I'm supposed to be on the shore. Same, I wait to respond. I've got one tattoo here, our horse is going to be going here and then there's a tattoo going there.

You want me to show you my lower back tattoo? The stamp? Yeah, you've seen it. Okay, never mind. The lighthouse is gonna go on the dealt. But chasing, chasing parents for attention.

the way I got attention was to pretend I was sick. Yeah, yeah, that was one of mine too. Victim. Yep, perfect. Pretend it was sick. That's got attention.

I didn't realize that. Thanks. So I remember the moment I adopted that strategy to get attention from mom. Yeah I used to think I was always sick all the time.

And then I did it, then you carry that shit on to adult because it's a strategy. A victim is a strategic. Savior is strategy, you're trying to You're not, oh no, I'm a victim.

No, you're using it as a strategy. Anyway, so that's, that a lot of what came out and healing around that and realizing a bandit, realizing that I was a savior.

I, was saving in my marriage. It was, saving the women I dated post-war. So, there was an aspect of me of let me save you. Now. Same here. Second wife.

That was my second wife saving. I don't want to make helping people wrong, but helping when it goes negative. There's a big difference. So the Savior is trying to get something.

He's trying feel valid. Because when you're the savior, you sacrifice everything. Yourself. You sacrifice yourself versus if you are somebody that's helping.

This is how it's been told to me. Instead of being in the rescue boat, I was the one that went on the boat and would try to rescue the ships as they were drowning.

What I'm supposed to be is I am supposed be the lighthouse on the shore, sending out a consistent signal every single day, calling people in so that they don't get the rocky shores.

Yes. Precisely the same. So that's the difference. And I was an amazing savior. Oh, you mean both, bro. I would create environments where businesses would do great and then it would collapse and guess what I'd have to do?

I had to step in and be The Savior. Right. Huh. You created the problem you had to solve. Amazing. And then I would be the only one that could solve it.

Wow. I'd show how awesome I was. Because that's what I did with my mom all the time. Beautiful strategy. Let me show you how awsome I am. There you go.

Right? Because I never got… Yeah, I remember winning an award in college. President's award. Second time I won it, to this day nobody's ever won twice.

Called my Mom and I'm like, what do you think Dad would say? And she goes, Dad, would think you're nothing more than a glorified bellboy. Ouch. Think that I didn't try to prove something after that in the golf business?

Ouch, yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think I did work a little bit harder, think that didn' sacrifice a bit more, and think, jeez. Never, I got approval from my mom three times, twice in last six prob- I'm sorry, three time in six months.

Twice happened within 14 days of each other when she was towards the end when in hospice because they put her on anti-depression medication. And I went, fuck, if that was my Mom growing up I would be fucking President of the United States.

Like I could fucking change world. I can get world peace. Like it's all the Middle East. Yeah, and she's like, I'm so proud of you. Wait, what? Wait what.

Give her part of those drugs. She goes, What's wrong? I go, My mom just told me she was proud. That's not your mom. She goes, that wasn't your mother.

I'm like, no, seriously. And then it like happened again, like two weeks later. Maybe a week later, and I was like it just happened. Again, I got to call my brothers and sisters.

This is too much. So what happened? I love this story because this is what happens, trauma uppercase or lowercase T. You built a strategy. The math that you have become wouldn't exist without that stimulus or lack of stimulus.

Now, you've gotten yourself to the point where, look at all the strengths it gave you, and I'm not trying to bypass this. It's created some great skills.

But now you get to heal the aspect of the reason why you started doing it. Oh, it's great. My chasing, my saviorism over the last seven years, especially in dating, led me down to some beautiful encounters with lovely women.

Same, that's why I'm with Christine. And environments that I would never sip in because I was craving feminine attention. Now, a more healed version of Brandon can now approach relationships a little different.

Not chasing anymore, not needing the validation, you know, and not having to walk in and save. I can still enjoy that without using the catalyst of the trauma and building structures and behaviors around the traumas anymore.

I could heal that and still be as awesome as you are or as I am. Isn't it great? That's it. That is the tool of mushrooms. It's so great. Everything was about performance and about chasing.

Yes. And I was really good at it. Yeah. You were. I mean, you're extremely impressive how you have built businesses over the years. Like incredible. But you can only get it to a certain level, which is how I wound up with Zeller.

I could see the same patterns repeating like I can grow a business to certain levels and then it just starts to decline because I wasn't a very good leader and I couldn't get the right people around me to take it the next level.

Right? And even Heather, who's been with me five years, she was my chief orchestrator. She tells me, if you hadn't gone to see Mike, I would have been gone in like two to three months.

I couldn't put up with it anymore. And now she's like all in. Love it. Beautiful. Not any disrespect to her husband, James. Like she is quote unquote the work wife.

We can finish each other's sentences. You know me. you don't have to check with You have full range, full providence, right? Like, you know, same thing, Christine, she works for me and, but like we have that kind of relationship.

I'm like, that's what you want to do. Like there's such this comfort level. And I just realize Brandon. would grow things and then I would blow it up so I'd have to be the savior and I Would do it over and over again because I wanted to get uproar from my mom or the people around me or The women in my life or show everybody how great I was or be put on stage at a Kennedy event saying how I turned it around in six months and what you have To do and all that.

I wish I could go back to that You know, the nice thing about longevity medications now, like, you know when people, when they hit our age, they're like oh, I wish I could go back to 30. I have the body of a 30 year old.

Same. Like I'm on all… I am better than I was at 30, oh my god. No, my cellular age… I don't know. The guys in my gym think I' m on TRT. And I just eat very lean, very intentional.

Oh, yeah. Are you? Yeah. Dude, are you kidding me? I take it all. I mean, the peptides, all of it. And I highly recommend it, by the way. If you haven't had your blood work done, you need to go see Jordana Quinn.

Dr. Quinn, I'll introduce you. She's here. Okay. Golden. Yeah, she'll go get the blood test done for you and do all the stomach tests and all that. Go see Jordan.

It's a game changer, dude. Okay. I mean, my body fat's at 14%. Beautiful. Good for you. Yeah. But the point in all of this and regular listeners, it usually comes up with everybody that we have on there is just kind of the use of peptides.

It is, I have the wisdom at 58. sick. Absolutely. So I don't have to go back to my younger self. I'm with my youngest. Yes. Thank you. Right. My intention is to be ageless.

Yeah, I just got back from Costa Rica and EDM at festival. How was that? Interesting. Interesting? You know, like this? Yeah. It was just interesting.

I mean, it was great. I don't want to yuck anybody's yum. Spiritual tourism kind of a vibe. You know, there's a lot of big fluffy talk and the patriarchy and, oh, the evils of capitalism, which like, Oh, I didn't think we were doing that.

We're going to have really good music and maybe do some mushrooms. The evil of Capitalism is they're charging you 150 bucks for a bottle of water. Oh yeah, that kind.

Yeah, yeah. But it's beautiful. People say capitalism is evil. And then they'll like if you want work with me, It's $4,000. Like, okay. but I learned how to surf.

Never been on a surfboard before. Cool. 57. Got it. Had a blast. Did a lot of wonderful kind of meditation and writing in the jungle and, you know, in my hammock.

So it was fun. Overall, great experience needed. What is harder now in life that you thought would be easier? Is there anything that's harder in your life now that she thought it would I'm trying to think of in my thirties, what did I think 57 would feel like?

I mean, I thought I was going to be in a walker. You know, there's some just like, Oh, you're just going be this old dude. I still be married. If I forget your wife's name.

No, no. Yeah. Oh yeah. Thought it was gonna be Mary. Okay. We're going have a little house and we're gonna go to our cabin in Wisconsin and. And we were going do that.

So I, we thought we would be traveling together and, and that was one of the things that I realized she didn't want anymore. That's, that's one the last things.

It's hard when they, it's. Aren't you impressed with people that stay married for 50 years? I don't fucking know how they do it. I think only 5% of the population can make marriage work, traditional marriage.

We're trying to use something from the turn, from, the, From the year double zero apply to when people now are living until 80. There's technology, old frameworks, way old technology containers.

I mean, look, I love Christine, whether we get married or not, we'll have to see how that plays out. Sure. And I'm also wide open and clear on it that it may not last till my last breath.

Yeah, there you go. Right. But statistically people change, containers change. Absolutely. I think what I was thinking. So, how about this? So marriage would be harder.

If you were married, would you say, did you think marriage could be easier by the time you're in 57? Oh, I thought we'd kind of be the, oh, we're going to be old couple.

And maybe that's why I blew it up. Maybe that was why had to walk, because I had been terrified. Oh yeah, that is not you. There's no way I could have made it.

No, you've always been. But I've been trying to domesticate myself. That's what you are supposed to do. Because that what's you supposed do, stay in the same house.

Last time we were, she's like, Oh, let's get a house in Florida. I'm like why the fuck do I want to go to Florida? I would go with parties and everybody be like I got like four more years.

My joints hurt. You know, I just hope I can make it. There goes another buyout going on. Are you kidding me? Like, I'm just getting started. I am just warming up.

So to be fair to myself, in my 30s, when I thought about growing old, and I felt domesticated, but that's what I was supposed to do. You know, supposed be the good Christian guy, long-term married guy.

And I think it was suffocating until the container couldn't hold me anymore. Nobody's wrong, they make anything wrong. But I grew out of it. Yeah, interesting question.

What would you say to your kids if they came to you and said, I'm getting married? What you would say Alex at 24 if he gets married. Well, he's already said you know, dad I want that.

I wanna family. No, but he came right now and he said I am getting marry next week. I would have to… It's so fucking hard. It would be, I support you fucking 100%. And I've had to do this, as I withdraw from the savior ideology, the Savior archetype, is I have remember that everybody's on their own individual path, it's not my job to save them.

Great enter that container. I did I ended up with enthusiasm with when I got married as did you it was some fucking blast Made a great party love love this woman.

We had we had a blast. Sarah until we didn't I loved sarah dearly until We just weren't anymore and that's okay. Yeah, it's really okay It's it again.

It ran about the container, but the legal aspect I would say okay, and I one thing I love about growing up my dad anyone Anyone that my sister, my brother, and I brought home, they were treated like family.

Dad was this big gregarious dude, you were family and you loved and they immediately were assimilated until they weren't a few years later. Yeah, if that happened with us and we became part of the family, we'd then have to tell you how much you sucked.

To list out all your grievances. So I would approach this like he's on his path. He's going to figure it out. This is a container he is entering. Maybe he'll be one of the very few who can make it work.

I don't know, but I can't bias. But I'm going love him unconditionally no matter what. It's like if I was this hitter and try to preach to him about all the reasons why I am like, shut up, Brandon, just shut the fuck up.

Isn't that the hardest thing to do is just to shut it up? Okay, sounds like a great idea. Go ahead, jump off that cliff, go right ahead. Yeah, yeah. Oh man.

I think that's it though. You touched an important point. What's the greatest gift I can give my children is unconditional love and like unconditional, love.

But you can't love unconditionally, you cant love others unconditionally until you love yourself unconditional and that is the journey that you and I have been on.

I have learned to love myself unconditionally, even in all my warts, and I've made a lot of mistakes. I made fuck ton of mistake. But, as I tell people, it's just a paragraph in the chapter, or it just chapter in a book.

That's all it is. And there's a couple volumes. So, how do people find the book, buddy? Undomesticated.info. So go and sign up. There's a free chapter in there.

And I'm diligently working this month to finish it. I was working through chapter six today, which is called The Wilderness. It talks about processing grief, pain, fear, shame, and how to get out of it…

You'll wind up in the wilderness for sure. I've just got this one done and I'm ready to start doing the next one. So what's your book about? Out of the system It's called it's a doctor's guide to reclaim their purpose their power and the passion Oh love it and i talk about how the System is completely designed like the sharecropping of post-civil war America and how we can save $4 trillion a year in healthcare expenses by getting rid of our existing system and going to direct relationships, moving outside of the insurance-based care system.

Love that. So, it wouldn't take much to save money in our healthcare system, I mean, we spend three to four X more than anybody else and we have the worst outcomes in the world.

Yeah. We're going do something about it. Okay. Brother. I'm so good to do this. So fun. Dude, you're coming back, right? Oh my god, I feel like this has been ten minutes.

We gotta talk more alien stuff. I know. You're gonna come in and we're going to some mushrooms and then we'll talk. Do we do it on mushrooms? No. Oh. Absolutely not.

Is that bad? That would be bad. That could do on bourbon. Could do a shot every 15? I don't drink anymore. My body can't handle it. Fun. Yeah. But I do miss it though.

It do. On weekends. If I go out occasionally I'll have Italian wine. Okay. Barolo's are my favorite. I have boxed wine. Yeah, I know. And then I'll have an occasional bourbon or an occasion tequila, if I can handle one and that's it.

All right. Brandon Boyd, undomesticated.info. Yes. It's an honor to call you my friend. Thank you, thank you. We wish we would have spent more time together over the last 15 years, but I intend to change that, my friends.

Well, me too. So I love your insights and your energy and it's a blast. Just don't take me in the jit-jit's room, okay? I don' want to break it in half.

All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for listening to Out of the System. Stay classy out there, people. Later.

The Widowmaker’s Gift: An interview with author J. Paul Luftman, MD

Andrew Wilner, MD, FACP, FAAN

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