Full Transcript Opening and guest introduction 0:00 If a parent, typically the mother, says something is wrong, 0:05 there's something wrong. Yeah, I know. 0:07 I'm a mother and I'm a doctor, and I know my kid. 0:10 Backwards and forwards. 0:12 He blinks the wrong way. 0:15 I make and I tell them. 0:16 May not be what you think. It's the cause. 0:20 But if you see something different, there is something different. 0:24 And, I just hope our colleagues, you know, continue to listen to the parents 0:29 because they really my parents are very smart. 0:33 They teach me things. 0:35 This is doctor talks. 0:37 Real talk from real doctors. 0:39 The issues that matter to you most. 0:43 Welcome again to the Demystifying Pans Pandas podcast. 0:47 I'm Doctor Nancy O'Hara, and I am thrilled to welcome Doctor Rosalie Greenberg. 0:52 Rosalie is doing such amazing work with our children and adolescents, 0:57 with tick borne disease with pans, pandas. 1:00 And I'm really 1:01 happy to have her perspective today on the podcast, so thanks, Rosalie. 1:05 Oh, thank you for having me. 1:07 Well, tell me, how did you get to where you are today? 1:12 You know, 1:13 like making a joke and saying, well, I took my car. 1:16 Okay, I'm sorry, but it is one of those days. 1:20 Now, basically, I did my child and adolescent 1:23 psychiatry at Columbia, where I went to medical school, 1:27 and I hit psychiatry 1:29 right at the time, came very biologically oriented.
Rosalie Greenbergu2019s training and first PANS/PANDAS case 1:33 So I trained with some of the pioneers 1:37 in ADHD, childhood depression, all of this. 1:42 And so that started me on track. 1:45 I did more EKGs and read more during 1:48 my, psych training than my internship. 1:52 So that tells you how it was. 1:55 So I was very into especially mood disorders 1:59 and, over time, 2:03 losing something that was different 2:06 that we call pediatric bipolar disorder. 2:09 Okay. 2:11 But I keep going to conferences 2:13 and year, the year 2000, I don't remember exactly what I want to hear. 2:19 Too sweet out talk. 2:21 And Sue, you know, gave a lecture on pandas at that point. 2:26 And three weeks later, I picked up my first case. 2:30 Now. You know, and actually sent it to her. 2:32 And she was in one of his he was one of her trials. 2:36 Okay. Well, 2:39 but another kid, I had a 2:40 kid that bipolar and and I got to be pretty good at this. 2:44 Okay. And treating bipolar kids. 2:46 And he had been hospitalized three times in a year. 2:50 Columbia. 2:51 Cornell, whatever. 2:54 They said he was bipolar, but he would just 2:57 get out of control and aggressive and psychotic and. 3:00 Okay, so, his therapist, his psychiatrist told them, you know, 3:05 why don't you come back when he's a teenager, 3:07 and maybe we need you to work with him again. 3:09 And when they came and told me that, I said, oh, my God, it'll be impossible. 3:14 At that point. 3:15 So anyway, I medicated him for a few months. 3:17 He was really good. 3:19 But then he started having behavioral. 3:21 Outbursts. 3:22 And I knew he was going to go to residential treatment. 3:26 And I tried think, what can I do? 3:28 His mother said he never had a strep. 3:31 What the hell? 3:32 His asshole was 800 something. 3:36 There you go. 3:37 And then she did say, oh, yeah. 3:39 You know, this sister used to get strep a lot. 3:41 He's never had a crap. 3:42 Well guess what? Yeah. 3:45 Anyway, so I sent him, 3:48 to one of the people I work with, pans of candies, 3:51 and I have placed on antibiotics, and it took a few months. 3:56 And then he comes into my office, and 3:58 I saw something I've never seen in my life before. 4:01 He comes and says, hi, Doctor Greenberg, how are you? 4:05 Sitting on my couch, Lindsey's head on his mother's shoulder. 4:09 And, you know, Doctor Greenberg, I decided I want to get all A's. 4:14 I'm really going to do my homework. 4:17 And I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone. 4:19 You know what? 4:20 I've never, never seen anything like this. 4:24 And so that and I wrote his case up, actually. 4:28 And that was kind of the beginning of really getting into this stuff. 4:33 So then since most of my practice this I'm known from pediatric 4:37 bipolar, most of the kids pretty much have that diagnosis. 4:41 You know, they're coming for a second opinion or whatever. 4:44 And I just decided, let's get strep and mycoplasma on everybody who comes in. 4:49 Let's see, what do you get? 4:50 Well, more kids were positive for mycoplasma 4:55 than they were for strep. 4:57 And then I heard somebody give a lecture 4:59 and mentioned that, oh ticks carry mycoplasma. 5:03 Well, I live in New Jersey. 5:04 I'm from Brooklyn. 5:05 We didn't know much about ticks, but okay, let's find out. 5:09 And I start reading about ticks and entered the world of Lyme, 5:15 a Bartonella, which on my head 5:18 around and changed my whole view of medicine. 5:21 Yeah, yeah. 5:22 I mean, it's done the same for both of us. 5:25 You know, and you've written multiple publications. 5:29 You wrote the book on pediatric bipolar disorder. Yes. 5:33 And and it's amazing if nobody's read it. 5:36 Please do. 5:38 But, you know, you have such a great way of looking at these children
Broadening the diagnosis to tick-borne illness 5:44 from that biological approach as a psychiatrist. 5:48 And I love that. 5:50 And, and it's interesting. 5:52 I just read one aside. 5:53 You know, I ended up going to Penn. 5:55 Both my parents had gone to Columbia, and they really wanted me to go. 5:59 But when I went to interview, 6:02 the, doctor that was head of psychiatry, I was a teacher at the time. 6:06 I was teaching children with autism, and I was going to be a psychiatrist. 6:10 That's what I was going to medical school to do. 6:12 I had worked with a psychiatrist at the Timothy's School in 6:16 in Philadelphia, and that's what I was going to medical school to do. 6:19 The gentleman that was the head of the pediatric 6:22 psychiatry department at Columbia at that time, 6:24 still believed in the refrigerator mothers theory of autism. 6:28 And that was 19. 6:30 I started medical school in 1984. 6:36 And yes, so this was 6:37 1983 when I was interviewing. 6:40 And so he said, you know, I'm the one that has to present you to the committee. 6:44 What do you want me to say? 6:45 And I said, 6:46 please say that I'm not interested because I don't want to work with somebody 6:50 that still believes the refrigerator mothers cause autism. 6:53 I and I ended up going to Penn, but it was, oh. 6:57 It was quite an eye opener at that point in time. 7:00 But anyway, I digress. 7:03 So so when we talk 7:06 about pans and pandas, certainly pandas 7:09 is the nurse psychiatric disorder associated with strep. 7:12 And, you know, it's a clinical diagnosis as much of as tick borne diseases. 7:17 But what we see is that it is really 7:20 an immune modulated disease. 7:23 It's an immune intolerance. 7:26 And so these children that may start with strep, often in the areas 7:30 where you and I practice and live, they get tick borne diseases. 7:36 Bartonella baeza. 7:38 And how does that change the picture for you? 7:41 Psychiatrically. 7:42 Well, very much because what actually I had done after I found 7:46 my new patients, kept having tickborne disorders and treating them, 7:52 you know, by, antibiotics to whatever 7:56 help them and help them be more responsive to psychiatric medications. 8:00 I said, you know, I've got kids that I've treated for ten years 8:03 for their pediatric bipolar since they were four. 8:07 Could they be positive? 8:08 Yes. Yeah. 8:10 So I wound up a publishing. 8:13 I published my newest one. 8:15 I haven't published it yet. 8:16 I present that it's 37 bipolar kids. 8:19 Yeah. 8:20 And 75% are positive 8:22 for tick borne illness, which is crazy. 8:26 Yeah. 8:28 But it's crucial to know that 8:31 because that makes such a difference in treatment. 8:34 The key to a treatment resistant, I would say if you're treatment resistant, 8:37 you're just looking at the problem the wrong way. 8:39 You're missing something. Yeah. Yep. 8:42 Absolutely agree. Yeah. 8:43 So if they're not responding to match what are you missing out. 8:48 And it's amazing because once they get properly treated 8:52 they really most of them become more responsive. 8:56 Right. Right. 8:56 And but parents are always afraid of psychiatric issues. 9:01 So even though they're coming to me and don't really want psychiatric meds, 9:05 but they know that kid is suffering and they really care.
Immune-triggered psychiatric symptoms and treatment approach 9:08 And, I mean, 9:09 I just had the stuff the other day with some lovely parents. 9:14 The youngster, 9:16 she's now 14, and they tell me about the. 9:19 She's got really bad OCD, but it's, it's it's 9:23 especially the intrusive thoughts about wanting to harm somebody that you love, 9:28 you know, or death to them or whatever, which is such a torture. 9:31 Yeah. 9:32 And so I said, well, had she been ill, 9:36 she had three sinus infections in the last year. 9:38 And I said, the sinus is the weight of the brain. 9:41 That's it. 9:42 That's how the immune system does it. 9:45 And and I said, look, you got to do homework for me. 9:48 You got to go back, look at your medical records. 9:50 Because they said the first time it occurred she was in first grade. 9:54 Oh, look at your medical records around that time. 9:57 See what you see. 9:58 And she wrote me last night. 9:59 Gee, you were right. 10:01 She did have a, you know, a nasal infection. 10:04 And it was really a problem. 10:06 And then soon after that, that's when it all happened. 10:09 Yeah. 10:11 Yeah. 10:11 And it's amazing. 10:13 I think people look, but they don't see. 10:16 Yeah. You know. 10:17 Or they don't take the time to look. 10:19 I mean, one of the things that we have in common is we're really detectives. 10:23 We're really trying to get at what the underlying triggers are, 10:28 not just medicate but figure out, are there triggers 10:33 we're missing because, as you said, they're resistant to medications, etc.. 10:37 So in this three pronged approach, and we always, you know, 10:40 Sue and I were talking about that in an earlier podcast, 10:44 you know, the the treating the triggers with antimicrobials, 10:47 antibiotics as appropriate, treating the immune system with immune 10:52 modulating agents as appropriate, and then treating the symptoms. 10:56 And certainly I try to treat those symptoms 11:00 with nutraceuticals, other things. 11:02 But we we do have to go to antidepressants. 11:06 So talk about the role of antidepressants in treating youngsters with this 11:11 with these disorders okay. 11:13 I'm not a big fan of antidepressants. 11:14 I know I really am not like, 11:18 and I think that's the mistake people often make. 11:21 They see these kids, they put them on antidepressants. 11:24 The kids appear worse. 11:27 Well, especially if you're one of my kids, you start 11:29 becoming manic and mixed dates, and you want to kill yourself. 11:32 You want to kill somebody else. 11:34 And psychotic, possibly. 11:37 Or you 11:37 just have such disinhibition that they can't stay still. 11:41 They can't pay attention. 11:42 They can't. 11:43 Oh, you know, maybe I had an underlying ADHD. 11:46 Okay. Throwing meds for that. 11:48 Well, if you want to make a kid who might be bipolar psychotic, 11:52 I like the combination of anti-depressants and stimulants accurately. 11:56 That's for one. 11:58 That's in case anybody didn't get it. That's listening. 12:00 She was being facetious. 12:01 Oh, yes. Thank you very much. 12:03 Please, please. 12:07 Because the thing with anti-depressants, if you use them 12:10 and if you use them really first to check is the bipolarity in the family. 12:15 Yeah. I think that's crucial. 12:18 And even if there is, that's not a contraindication. 12:21 But it tells you watch that kid like a hawk. 12:24 Start very slowly. 12:26 Go up very slowly. 12:28 And I've had kids on one milligram on Prozac. 12:31 I mean, 12:32 you know, it's a quarter of a milliliter. 12:35 But that's what they needed. 12:37 And it worked. Yeah. 12:40 And then I took it away. They got depressed. 12:42 So and the thing is, since the infections 12:47 bring out your biologic predisposition, 12:51 and many times we don't know what that is. 12:55 All the more reason 12:57 for caution and I'm not a fan. 13:00 If you have something and then you get a side effect 13:03 adding another medicine for the side effect. 13:06 And our goal is not to, you know, have somebody 13:09 and need a pharmacy every day. 13:12 That's why I think nutraceuticals are wonderful. 13:15 On the other hand, the kids I see are pretty sick, right? 13:19 If they're making it to a psychiatrist, 13:22 generally they're pretty. 13:24 Yeah. Okay. 13:26 Yeah. And you know, parent. 13:28 Oh, is he going to be on the medicine, you know, forever or what. 13:32 And let's get them off right away. 13:34 And as a parent, I really I totally get okay. 13:39 But the 13:41 most important thing is for your kid to be able to function. 13:44 Yeah. For your kid to be able to. 13:45 My goal if I do it right, is to give a kid a childhood. 13:50 Let them have a childhood. Yeah. 13:52 And what greater thing can you, you know. 13:54 Right. Yeah. 13:55 That's like the best thing we can possibly do. 13:58 Exactly. That's what I for. 14:00 Yeah. 14:01 So, you know, I just, 14:04 I wind up, I do if it's a kid throwing things at his parents 14:09 and threatening every day, I don't care what infection he has. 14:12 If you can't control that rage, you can't have him at home and you can't treat him. 14:17 Yeah. Yeah. 14:18 Absolutely. 14:18 No, I mean, and I think people, you know, it's like 14:22 either you treat the infection or maybe we'll go to psychiatric. 14:28 And like I said, many times 14:29 they've seen psychiatrists, but the kid hasn't responded again. 14:34 Why did they miss him? Right. 14:35 And and I can't emphasize that enough for what I do because I really 14:41 biology is destiny. 14:43 I really. Believe. 14:44 But but but you just said it in the, in your publication 14:47 or about to be published, article 75% 14:52 of your patients with bipolar have tick borne disease in the background. 14:56 It's a staggering number that are being missed. 15:00 You know, and I was just at a pandas foundation meeting and several parents 15:05 who were there with their, you know, their children had committed suicide, 15:10 and never had found any of these problems. 15:15 And fortunately, there is a brain bank. 15:19 They all of the parents that were at 15:22 this meeting had donated their child's brain. 15:25 And I know it's a very difficult subject, but, 15:29 they had found 15:30 tick borne disease or basal ganglia inflammation, evidence 15:36 of an infectious triggered 15:39 inflammatory, you know, condition within the brain. 15:44 And it had been missed. 15:46 Well, I think also the sometimes people 15:52 they confuse things. 15:53 I mean, we all do. 15:55 But with strep we know it's 15:57 clearly it's more an autoimmune reaction. 16:01 It's not that the pathogen it's not that strep gets into the brain. 16:05 That's different with tick borne illnesses. 16:09 Yeah. 16:09 And so that affects your treatment too because 16:14 well you want to give steroids perhaps to someone who has strep. 16:20 You're not going to do you're not going to run to do that. 16:23 If you have somebody who has an infection already in their brain 16:26 just to help the spider Keats, multiply just doesn't sound like a good idea. 16:30 You're right. I am very sarcastic. Okay. 16:34 Well, you. 16:35 It's just because I think people want a simple answer, and. 16:40 God, I wish it was so simple. 16:42 I know. 16:42 But that's why sometimes I'll have a kid that comes to me 16:46 and they have been on work, talks to Mab or something else, and
Medication use, caution with antidepressants, and symptom management 16:51 that wasn't the 16:52 best choice for the child, because they really needed 16:56 to get rid of the bugs, not to dampen their immune system. 16:59 Right? Right. 17:01 I hear you, I hear you, and I think, 17:04 you know, I reinforced to parents all the time, you know, 17:07 this is an infectious triggered, but immune disease. 17:12 And we need to do that. 17:15 But we also need to treat the the symptoms that they're having. 17:18 And some of them they come in nobody in the family sleeping. 17:21 We got to get them sleeping. 17:22 You know nobody's going to be able to function. 17:24 You know there there are many symptoms we need to treat. 17:27 Well mothers quit their jobs, right? 17:30 Haven't you had that a lot? 17:31 Think one person just has to be there for this kid, right? 17:36 Right, right. 17:38 Now, you mentioned a minute ago, you know, 17:40 that people are worried I'm putting my child on a psychiatric drug. 17:45 Will he or she needed forever. 17:47 And it's a question we get asked all the time. 17:50 There were already. 17:51 You know, the child is seven. 17:52 They're already thinking about when they're going to prom, you know. 17:55 Well, how do you usually talk about that with families 17:58 when they ask those questions? 18:00 Well, I'm very I'm very honest with them. 18:03 I said, look, there are studies that can answer that question for you. 18:08 I can tell you from my experience, you know, working with hundreds of kids 18:13 that they're probably three groups. 18:16 There is one group that they need the psychiatric medicine 18:21 to help them kind of be in control, maybe go to school and function a bit, 18:25 but they once they get treated for the bugs, 18:29 they actually 18:30 may not need that at all and don't need psychiatric medicine. 18:33 Right? 18:35 Then there's another group. 18:37 They will need to stay on some psychiatric medicine. 18:42 Probably not as high a dose as when they were at the sickest, 18:46 but they may well need it. 18:48 And especially like the ADF stuff that doesn't go away easily. 18:54 So they would need the stimulant if that works for them. 18:57 And then there's another group that. 18:59 Absolutely. 19:00 I mean, they're very ill. 19:03 They have, you know, the infections, 19:05 they have schizoaffective diseases usually you'll find it in the genes 19:09 and they're gonna need to be chronically on 19:12 psychiatric meds and monitored. 19:16 To me, the most amazing thing I think of what I do 19:19 is seeing the Herc thing occur. 19:23 Psychiatrically. 19:25 I love that, 19:27 because who would have believed that? 19:30 Somebody comes to my office and they're enraged and upset and I 19:34 said, okay, go home, give them to Motrin and the come in three hours. 19:37 Let me know how he is. 19:39 Oh, he's gone back. To. 19:42 What he did. 19:42 One ever see something like that go. Yeah. 19:45 I mean, it's that inflammatory condition. 19:48 That's right. Yeah. 19:51 It is just astounding. 19:53 But that. 19:54 So the psychiatric condition. Yes. 19:57 It's there, but you got to have the kid cope with life. 20:00 You got to provide all the supports as you deal with the infections 20:06 and see what happens with the psychiatric stuff. 20:11 Yeah. 20:12 And what about, you know, we talked a little bit about antidepressants. 20:16 There are lots of other psychiatric medications. 20:19 What about antipsychotics, you know, or those sometimes required. 20:23 Absolutely, absolutely. 20:26 If you have a youngster who, 20:30 is hallucinating. 20:33 There was that case that I wrote up for one about the boy, 20:36 a 14 year old who was diagnosed schizophrenic, who had Bartonella, 20:41 and three people said he was schizophrenic. 20:45 But it was a fairly sudden onset. 20:47 He was seeing things. 20:48 He was hearing things. 20:49 He thought his dog was a devil. 20:52 And this poor kid, it wasn't. 20:56 But he was on every psychiatric medicine known to man. 21:01 Nothing worked. 21:02 And then somebody noticed a hysteria. 21:06 And that changed everything, because then he got treated for the Bartonella, 21:11 and he really was able to get off the psychiatric medications. 21:16 I mean, you know, he was able to go to college and, and do well now, 21:22 and that's we were that. Right. 21:24 And for those of you 21:25 who were new to the podcast or don't know anything about Bartonella, 21:29 the story that Doctor Greenberg is talking about are blanching, 21:34 stretch marks that don't follow dermal lines. 21:37 Usually they're vertical or horizontal. 21:41 They don't follow those lines that we usually see when we've got weight changes. 21:45 And as I said, they blanch, they change color when you press on them. 21:49 So that's a classic sign of Bartonella. 21:52 And I've seen it, Rosalie, on the NE. 21:55 On on for a run the press. 21:59 Yeah. 21:59 Not for arms. Yep, yep. 22:02 Not just on the trunk. 22:03 And other symptoms that you see psychiatrically also or otherwise, with. 22:09 Let's start with Bartonella. 22:12 Well, Bartonella 22:13 people often think of is associated with rage. 22:16 Yeah. 22:16 Because often these kids are angry, irritable. 22:21 You look at them, what they think is the wrong way, 22:24 and they start screaming at you. 22:25 You don't even say no. You're just talking. 22:28 Why are you yelling at me now? 22:30 And everything is perceived as a conflict, and that's for parents. 22:36 It's hard enough, you know, you got a kid, you can't even get him to school. 22:40 And then he's fighting you on everything, taking the medicine, 22:43 doing what he needs. 22:46 It's very, very hard. 22:48 So, Bart, the classic thing that if the strike. 22:51 But that doesn't occur. 22:53 My observation, at least until after puberty. 22:55 I've never seen it on a pube. 22:57 And at vast round. Okay. Have you. 23:00 You got to. 23:01 I got I'm thinking. I'm thinking. 23:03 I don't think so. 23:04 Okay. I'm going to have to go back to my records. 23:06 That's interesting. 23:07 Yeah. 23:08 I haven't seen it on a pre pube. 23:09 Interesting. Okay, okay. Yeah. 23:12 So. Okay, so we got the sprayer. 23:15 We also got these temper outbursts. 23:17 Of course they can have the OCD and and tremendous anxiety. 23:23 Yeah. 23:25 And the mood swings. Yeah. 23:27 You know it's, 23:30 you know, the thing that people don't realize or not don't realize, 23:33 but I think we all don't appreciate that the whole body's connected.
Bartonella signs, neuropsychiatric effects, and whole-body inflammation 23:39 So, man, 23:39 if something's going on up here, it's something's up there in your gut, too. 23:43 Yeah, yeah. 23:45 And it's very interesting because I have a young man 23:48 who has, he's had multiple tickborne issues, okay. 23:53 As well as psychiatric. 23:55 And he wound up having ulcerative proc Titus, 24:00 which means, you know what, the end of the rectum. 24:03 By the anus. 24:03 He was having some flooding, in his stool. 24:07 And I had them take some of the biopsies, and we were able to find the Bartonella 24:12 in the biopsy. 24:14 Okay. 24:15 And he's got a lot of striae. 24:17 It's a case that I'm actually presenting, and I'll write a 24:21 but and so it may actually be involved 24:24 in some cases of inflammatory bowel disorder. 24:28 Yeah. Okay. 24:29 So he and I were talking last week 24:32 and I don't know how he got to it, but he said yeah last December. 24:36 Remember when I wasn't feeling well he was more depressed. 24:38 He was more tired. And whatever. 24:41 That's when he bled for the second time. 24:44 And that was just his whole body saying, I'm inflamed. 24:47 Guys, look at me. Yeah. 24:49 And that's what we see all the time, whether it be eczema or asthma 24:52 or inflammatory bowel disease or, you know, arthritis of different forms. 24:57 And I, I always caution people when we hear about arthritis, 25:02 arthralgia is in our kids with pandas. 25:06 I, I really feel we're not looking far enough 25:09 and close enough for any of the tick borne diseases. 25:12 You know, where, you know, it may just be autoimmune reactivity. 25:18 However, when we have joint pains 25:21 heal pains in Bartonella, for example, or sores, soles of the feet, 25:25 we really need to be looking for these tick borne diseases in my opinion. 25:29 Well, what's very interesting, 25:32 I've done some work looking at Polly Murray's writings. 25:35 Okay. 25:36 Polly Murray, for people who don't know, she was the one who first presented Lyme. 25:41 The long symptoms, 25:43 to the doctors 25:45 at Yale, to the rheumatologists, 25:48 as well as another mother called Judy Mensch. 25:50 Yeah. Okay. 25:52 So they presented it was a gift, basically saying, look, you can't have four cases 25:57 of rheumatoid arthritis with double rheumatoid arthritis in three blocks. 26:01 That makes no sense. Right. 26:04 And so the rheumatologist went and studied it. 26:09 But they weren't psychiatrists 26:12 as well as other kinds of physicians. 26:15 And so that created a more narrow view 26:18 and focus, right, of a, you know, Lyme. 26:22 Right. 26:22 Focus on the arthritis. 26:26 Polly Murray 26:27 actually wrote down notes about everything, and one was so smart. 26:31 It was amazing. 26:32 And she wrote about how many people in her neighborhood 26:35 had neuropsychiatric issues, from strokes to psychosis. 26:42 Just amazing. 26:44 Yeah. And it was there. 26:46 It was there was just, you know, something 26:48 I'm trying to put together again, not love her article. 26:52 But we have to keep putting together. Right. 26:54 But I think that's so important because it was there. 26:57 Yeah. Yeah. 26:58 And I think medicine is one of my, you know, big, complaints 27:04 I guess, about medicine these days is we have become so fractionated. 27:09 You know, in my parents days, they were both GP's. 27:12 They were the medical home. 27:14 They were at that, you know, there weren't all the other 27:17 practitioners as as we refer to today. 27:21 And I think as we become more and more specialized, 27:24 you know, we're not looking at the whole body, 27:27 particularly the connection between the gut in the brain, but 27:30 the whole thing is not looked at together. 27:34 I agree with you. 27:35 And yet you really need that if you're going to properly 27:39 diagnose and treat right, the whole body really is connected. 27:43 It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, cut off at the neck. 27:46 Right. 27:47 And and Risley, I'm seeing a lot more boobs in the last few years. 27:51 You know, we know 41% of our chicks in this area carry babies doses. 27:56 Are you seeing more of it? 27:58 And and what's symptoms with that or are you seeing particularly. 28:02 Well the easy baby to you? 28:04 Yes, I'm seeing more of it. 28:06 But the truth is I've seen a lot of it since I did the work with the bipolar kid. 28:11 Wow. Okay. Because what happened is, 28:15 you know, I learned about specialized testing, 28:18 and so I started using Organics Lab, 28:22 and there's the VPC of fish and people who don't know it's fluorescent inside you. 28:27 Hybridization. Fancy name. 28:29 But basically you look at the slide under the microscope. 28:33 If you have three red blood cells that contain 28:36 the organism, you call it positive, right? 28:40 Well, that's direct visualization. 28:42 You're using your eyes. 28:43 That's a pretty good test. 28:45 It's not because something else got abnormal. 28:49 And then one of my patients told me 28:51 how they went to see someone to get the antibiotics, whatever. 28:56 And the doctor said, oh, how unusual. 28:58 I never get positive on this, and I thought I had 17. 29:02 What is he talking about? 29:04 So I called up the head of organics. 29:06 I called up Doctor Shaw, and she went through it with me, 29:09 and she was like, oh my goodness gracious. 29:13 It was outrageous. 29:16 So and actually, that was the 29:17 most common infection tick for an infection in my group. 29:21 Yeah. 29:22 And it is the most common now in our area. 29:24 Yeah. And I think, yes. 29:27 What is in the literature, there's just a little bit
Testing, Lyme history, and rising Babesia and Bartonella cases 29:30 about its association with depression in adolescents. 29:35 And well it's a little bit written about it and anxiety. 29:38 Yeah. Okay. 29:40 But there really hasn't been a good strong focus on it. 29:45 Right. 29:46 Yeah. And it's so missed. 29:47 And now we're, we're seeing a lot of it post-Covid activation too. 29:53 Okay. 29:54 I think Covid has reactivated some of our dormant 29:58 viruses, maybe some of the dormant tick borne diseases 30:01 and from our perspective, I think that's why we're seeing so much more of it. 30:07 Maybe we just weren't looking as well. 30:08 But, you. Know, I agree with you. 30:10 I think I've found that my colleagues have, too. 30:13 You get reactivation of Bartonella. 30:15 Yeah. 30:16 Or the Lyme, the policia or all the above. 30:19 Absolutely, absolutely. 30:21 Well, Rosalie, we in the northeast are so lucky to have you 30:26 as as one of the psychiatrists that are there to see our kids. 30:30 But how can people find you if they're if they would like to, to see you? 30:35 Are you still taking patients? 30:37 Still taking patients. 30:38 You know, the rule is you can't treat people in other states, right? 30:42 Well, if you don't have a license, 30:44 what I do is I try to be a consult 30:49 and work with somebody who's on the ground in that state. 30:53 Yeah, okay. Discuss it with them. 30:56 Because these kids are tenuous. 30:58 They can change in ten minutes and they can become suicidal. 31:02 And I wouldn't want that responsibility anyway. 31:05 If you're out in California, I want somebody who can be there for you, 31:08 who can look at you, who can, you know, make the right moves. 31:11 Right. 31:12 So I serve more as a consultant. 31:15 I would say, 31:17 but, you know, it's it's great. 31:19 I've had some very, very interesting kids, you know, from all over. 31:23 Yeah. 31:25 Well, the mentoring is great. 31:26 I do it a lot also for practitioners all over the country, all over the world. 31:31 You know, we're both lecturing for islands. 31:33 You know, you're you've lectured all over the world for them and, great lectures. 31:39 If you've never heard Rosalie talk really, a wonderful, 31:43 lecture to to listen to, Rosalie, are there any, 31:48 tidbits any, 31:51 pieces of hope, anything you would like to leave families 31:55 or practitioners with about the kids that you take care of? 31:59 With pandas, pandas, or tick borne disease? 32:02 Well, I think for everybody, 32:06 if a parent, typically the mother, 32:09 says something is wrong, 32:12 there's something wrong. 32:13 Yeah, I know I'm a mother and I'm a doctor 32:16 and I know my kid backwards and forwards.
Listening to parents and closing remarks 32:19 He blinks the wrong way. 32:21 I may, and I tell them, may not be what you think is the cause. 32:26 But if you see something different, there is something different. 32:31 And, I, I just hope our colleagues, you know, continue to listen to the parents 32:36 because they really my parents are very smart. 32:40 They teach me things. Yeah. 32:43 I mean, I was lucky enough that one of my mentors or my main mentor, 32:46 instructor, Sydney Baker, 32:47 and, and his main motto was, you know, if you listen, they will come. 32:52 The parents are our greatest teachers. 32:54 And I think that is such a great piece of advice because as practitioners, 32:59 we need to listen to the people on the front lines. 33:02 You and I are just there. 33:04 We we 33:04 may give them a good route to go down, but they're still driving the car. 33:08 They're still on the front lines with the kids dealing with the rage 33:12 and the anxiety and the intrusive thoughts and all of that. 33:15 So absolutely, if the mother says, who's getting more depressed 33:18 on the antidepressant? 33:20 Listen. Yeah. Listen. 33:23 Those are the kids that wind up, you know, making suicide attempts and whatever. 33:28 They're telling you important information. 33:30 But it have to listen. 33:32 Yeah. Well, yeah. Thanks for talking to us. 33:35 We've been listening, and I really appreciate it, Rosalie. 33:38 And I'll see you soon in the future. 33:41 Great. 33:42 Thank you for having me. 33:43 Thank you. 33:44 Thank you for tuning in to Doctor Talks. 33:46 We hope today's episode has enlightened 33:48 and inspired you on your path to optimal health. 33:51 Each day is a new opportunity to make choices that empower your well-being. 33:55 For more insights and strategies, subscribe to our podcast 33:59 and visit our website w ww di doctor Talksport.com. 34:04 Stay connected, stay healthy and join us next time on Doctor Talks. 34:09 Real talks from Real doctors on the issues that matter to you most.
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