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Hi, welcome to the Recharged Biomedical podcast. I'm your host, Doctor Edward Park, and today we're very fortunate to be joined by Lorena Gold, who's a clinical, psychedelic assisted therapist.

Hi, Lorena. Hello. Hi. It's nice to see you. We met by happenstance, and, it was great. And now we're talking about the theme of psychedelics. So tell us about your background and how you got involved with this.

Okay, so, I'm a clinical psychotherapist, and I worked in lots of different modalities of therapy with, homeless people, refugees, nonprofit, low cost.

And then I went into private practice. And I also work, like with art therapy and healing and different modalities of therapy. So I'm a transpersonal integrative therapist.

And after many years in private practice, I became quite disillusioned with my profession because I putting myself through my own therapeutic process.

I thought, well, I haven't healed. I haven't healed my core wounds. So this is bullshit. It doesn't work. And I was searching for something and I'm like, okay, well, I've done all of this training and studying of years and I love what I do, but there's something missing for me.

It's scratching at the surface. It's not getting to the root cause, and I'd start speaking to people that were my, patients or clients. And how long have you been in surgery for? Maybe, like.

Yeah, I've been seeing my therapist for ten years or eight years, and I'm like, well, then it's not working as well. You need to change therapists because whoever's holding you in a space for that amount of time and you're not here, right?

Doesn't work. So I was searching, searching. And I'm like, I don't think I like what I do anymore, but I met, another psychotherapist, randomly had this dinner with him, and, we got into a conversation and he's like, what do you do?

And he's like, I do that too. And I just I'm not don't I'm not enjoying what I'm doing. It doesn't work. And he says, I need to come and work with me and see what I'm doing.

And I said, what are you doing? And he said, I working with psychedelics, for healing and psychedelic assisted therapy come into a journey with me. And I said, no, no, no, I don't do drugs.

And he laughed and he said, I said the same thing. He said, I also haven't done recreational drugs. This isn't drugs. It's medicine. And I was terrified.

I thought I was going to die if I did something like this. Having not done, recreational drugs growing up, I was busy having babies in my early 20s, so I kind of missed the chunk of that half of my life.

And I went to, a ten person journey that he was facilitating with other facilitators. And I, I was also a participant terrified. And what I experienced the next day was something I have never seen before.

So there was, a woman that had came to the journey, had come to the journey, and she was sitting with deep, deep rooted trauma, from sexual abuse when she was at college.

And she was in her 50s now. And we did integration the next day. I didn't know anything about her. And, and integration. She stood up and she went. 30 years of therapy.

Haven't touched the sides of where I went last night. And she said, I'm held. I took back my power. I saw everything that has happened and I'm whole and good.

And I went, oh, I need to know what's happened to her. I need to know what what her story is because I'm been searching for something. This could be a.

So I organized the lunch with her. I sat down and spoke to her, and she had been had had some horrendous sexual abuse at university and had spent 30 years in therapy trying to heal me.

She had been through addiction and trauma and, different rehabs and she had a very supportive husband, three beautiful children, and he had been there for the whole ride and she couldn't get to that call piece.

What it did what the medicine did was allowed her to get underneath the wounding and really see what had happened, and to take back that she'd given all of her power away to her abuser.

And in that moment took it back. And and I'm like, this is where I need to be. This is why I got into this work. And I'm like, if you can really help the the core wounding instead of treating the symptoms, which doesn't do anything.

Yeah. So then I kind of I spoke to my other therapist friends and I'm like, psychotherapy is bullshit. And they're like, it's not. Let's let's unpack it.

Well, let's, let's let's talk about that because, you know, I, I'm not a psychotherapist, but, you know, if I want to learn how to play golf, there's inherent conflict of interest because the more quickly I learn golf, the sooner I don't pay my golf instructor.

So on some level, I feel like, you know, psychotherapy is somewhat enabling because the inherent if they could wave a wand and say, oh, this is how you're going to take your power back, how you can be having a catharsis and transcend alchemy.

Right. Whenever the lead was to go see it as a gift, yada yada yada. Yeah. How am I going to pay my bills if my 50 minute is only a one off right? So I need to like stringing them along.

And I remember I had a good friend who said she had narcissistic personality disorder, which is a very commonly overused I remember we're all very internally preoccupied.

And she said it was because of her borderline mom who was narcissistic also. And on it. Yeah. She had 30 years of therapy. And one day her therapist said to her, oh, you're cured.

It was very arbitrary. I mean, like, you know, so the question is an inherent one of malingering and transference and counter transference on both parties because they're an enabling relationship.

They both get money and support and meaning are continuing the therapeutic relationship. So that's why, you know, I separate very obviously, you come from a deeply altruistic place, working with homeless and dispossessed people, refugees.

But if the greatest calling is to wave of want of ketamine or psilocybin and purge that either through Reiki or insight or whatever, I mean, it's not something people would really choose.

I don't know, I think there's an inherent conflict, conflict of interest from people who get paid to give therapy. So. I know that's a little aggressive, but what do you think?

I mean, I agree with you. I was speaking at a conference a couple of weeks ago, and the other guy on the stage said, this work is a calling. Most of us do it and we don't get paid for it.

We get paid very little. And I said, if you see my bank account, you'll know. It's like, yeah. So I was that was my response to that. It's definitely a calling, to do this work and yes, therapy.

You know, therapists can charge a lot of money and make a lot of money. They're not doing anything wrong. And I think there's a place for everything. And psychedelics are not going to heal you.

Nothing's going to heal you. No, no no, no, you you choose to do is just assigning you a brief on the homework and then what you do with it after is what's important.

But you need the right people to hold you, to educate you how to do that work. So the thing for therapy with therapy, for me, talk therapy was I'd go in, I finally, after five years, I was brave enough to talk about my own trauma, which I was still rooted in deep shame.

Like, how can I speak about this? And I did, and I and I felt like I'd been left on the floor and it was like, okay, we'll see you next week. And I'm like, what do I do with it now?

Nothing made any sense to me. But. So I was talking to this woman last night. Patient who was sexually abused multiple times and wouldn't even unpack the more dark stuff.

I'm like, what could be worse than this? And she's like, I dropped out of Berkeley, and I didn't see the point. I'm like, I really, at some level, everything is self-taught.

My point is, everyone is an autodidact. So I went to the conscious Like festival where you were speaker a month ago. I went to listen to this guy talk about his psychedelic experience is.

Yeah. And his point was like, you can go through a trip and have the epiphany, you know, the whole transformative experience. But if you don't do the take home, assignment and you don't really integrate it, then it's just another trip and you move on to the next trip.

So I guess I wrote that becomes addictive as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the next, trip, you know, so I wrote in this book for hey House telling me a miracle.

You know, as a beginner, because I'm not a psycho. I actually create a model based on computer analysis about the mind. And so it seems to me as a person, I'm a person.

And that people have these demons, like so in computer language, a demon is this little subroutine program. So people invite these programs in. Some people call it shadow work or whatever.

You could call it trauma. So whatever it is that you want it to be incarnated to experience or by accident or victimization you experience, people integrate that and it becomes like a shadow side of themselves.

It'll become so egocentric, even though it's causing us a lot of disturbing, emotions. The idea that I'm a victim, I'm a survivor of A, B, and C, you know, mom, sexual abuse, whatever.

It's capitalism. You know, it becomes so much harder identity to the illusory agency. And so I wanted to, like, shift gears. And this conference is people who are worth eight, seven, eight, nine figures.

And I remember a few months back listening to this founder of a company that was listed on Nasdaq. So he became very wealthy and he co-opted this term for Buddhism, you know, after before enlightenment talk would carry water, after enlightenment chop would carry water.

So he said, yeah, after Nasdaq listing, Chop would carry water. Because in a very real sense, this entire, M. O. life's mission and enlightenment was to become extremely wealthy, which is fine.

But, you know, then to hear yesterday, Travis, Cal cynic or whatever the founder of Uber Talk is as though he were Gautama on the mountain, addressing the apostles and saying, you know, money doesn't make you happy.

I think that's so funny. I just they don't see that the water that they're swimming in these fish, they're just like our entire life, spiritual. That lesson was equated with being wealthy.

And so it's self money. But I think it's totally adequate substitution. Like if we live in a material world, as Madonna said, that, you know, we're material girls, but, I think that, you know, when they say all beings be happy and free, that's really at the core of it, isn't it?

Like some people to find success, as you do in service. Yeah. Right. So you're helping to transform. But yeah, but I think that as I had an astrological reading, they said you and this is clear on the Buddhist healer.

Yeah. That's really what calls us to service is that in some way we're trying to heal ourselves. Right. That's what makes us so very empathic. But you're right.

I think the work always has to be done by the first. So in alchemy, they used to call it the great work writing, taking all the stuff that you think is crap about your life and how you were raised and your circumstance, and seeing it as a gift, which I thought was amazing.

There was a guy who was literally very well like his house burned on in Palisades, and he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma. And he kept on saying, like, imagine what's the gift?

You know, because all these Tony Robbins self-help people, but like, literally use an eye to diagnosis multiple myeloma. Actually, the ER doctor did it, but there was a gift, and now he's got a whole nother platform and a mission to serve.

Right. But like, I think that's the point. I people over tequila, the science fiction writers were talking about agency and the one guy could clearly see his politics.

The other one had, oh, this is politics. But I think you're right. When people wallow in their own trauma. Yeah. Then what's the escape route? Right. And, when you talk about victim, the only way we can come out a victim is to, as you say, to look at the gift of what we've been through.

If we choose to do this work as healers, we have to go through our own process to really be able to embody and be truly empathic to our audience. Otherwise, we're just learning.

We can't learn this stuff in textbooks, so we have to we have to experience that. And often people inside of us in medicine, in therapy and in healing have been through such adversity and challenges in their own life.

And I think as a therapist going through my own, there was a lot of shame built into that. Like, how could I be sitting with this still, I'm a therapist.

I should know better. But actually what I take from it now is 20 years of real adversity and challenges were what I signed up to do. So that's right. Spiritually, energetically, I incarnated into the family I incarnated into to learn well, you know, to learn, you either so what's it doing for me or what's this doing to me?

And that's why when you. It's a very subtle shift. Yeah, yeah. It's subtle, but, you know, I'll never forget one of my dear friends who passed, who she believed in past lives, and I didn't till last year.

I'll tell you about my friend who is the, ophthalmologist. The very wealthy, good looking guy. Anyway, he, told me about three of his past lives and was like, wow, you really believe this stuff, right?

Well, my friend, who is my karaoke, and she really believed it, and it was so vivid to her. She lived in those past. And then, I don't believe in spiritualism.

I don't really do drugs. And I had an experience with a shaman like 30 years ago, and it was psychics, but not a lot like without talking, without saying, tell me about your childhood.

Like she was moving energy, whatever that is, Reiki or whatever. Yeah. And my brain automatically rebooted some kind of just fragmentation thing. So I was lying there in the hotel bed and my body started buzzing with electricity.

I mean, it's totally not the power of suggestion, and I had no expectation. And my mind raced back like Ebenezer Scrooge going through Christmas Carol to my childhood, watching my parents, seeing them for who they were, their efforts, their shortcomings.

And it was like, you know, years of childhood regression therapy in 30 minutes. And I was like, wow, that's the thing. That's a program in your brain.

That's another thing that can happen. But I, I remember thinking, why do you say that? You embody you incarnated to experiences like that. So now I don't believe this crap.

I sometimes I put that in people's space like, oh, I wonder why you incarnated to experience this, right? So, some people would find it to experience this feeling of betrayal or some people incarnate to experience.

But is that true? True ish? You know, maybe. Maybe not. But I remember I had one friend whose mentor had people from sexual assault go back and relive it in vivid detail.

I just statement the banality of evil and that that sort of power lessness of the person that raped that was so transformative in terms of the violence that their victim story, you know.

So yeah, we do have maybe it's a spiritual bypass, maybe it's a hack, maybe it's BS. But I do think it's important to move forward if you want to move forward.

And a lot of people don't want to move forward. Their entire identity from birth to grave is their, default mode network, right? Right. Their perception of who they are as a result of their experiences.

So a lot of people are not here for the hero's journey. They're here for the wallowing. But I think that it's it's more pleasurable to get out of your brain.

So let's talk about ego death because that's something you kind of allude to. So, obviously ego death is horribly frightening and why people don't want to see their brain on drugs frying in a pan, you know, and why people are scared.

But in every culture, people have had pathways to this, whether it be through dreaming or bacchanalia or ritual, even in ancient Greece, that the illusion mysteries where they would take ergot and trip up and do whatever God knows, whatever.

But there's shamanism or this ability to reset or merge with source and have that ego that is both pleasurable. It's a part of the rite of passage of young man in the Amazon.

What's your opinion? Whether therapy without the drugs can really cause ego, that it feels like it's feeding the ego. So. Which I think works, I think just inside the transformation that, Yeah, I would say 100%.

Okay. Because the more, the more insightful you all the more understanding, the more educated you can be about what you're sitting with. So then. Then it's a choice.

Transformation is a choice when people are sitting in, crippling pain, they have a choice. Do you want to get up and get out of it, or do you want to sit in the pain?

And some people choose to sit in the pain because they don't. They don't want to change. It's about changing the neuroplasticity of the brain. And I think we're born hardwired.

I always use this analogy with, with with clients. It's like we have an iPhone, cost us a fortune if we don't update the software and the iPhone and the iPhone doesn't work, and we're running with software that was that was kind of hardwired into us from young children and expecting it to still work.

And it doesn't go. So we need to give ourselves, a boost. I don't necessarily think we have to have an ego death to be transformed into something else or choose to do this work, but it is very, very powerful when you do have that and when you and so my own experience of that was I had a completely different relationship to actually what the ego was, because we talk about ego alone and this healthy ego, unhealthy ego, and it's really kind of stripping that down.

I think when you have an ego death with, the use of medicine and just to answer your question, yes, I do think you can get that through meditation, through, water flow therapy.

I've had incredible experiences with that. And that's no medicine in a tomato ceremony. I think energetically, whoever's holding that space, everything is about set and setting and safety.

Which is why, whatever medicine you're going to do, go to someone experience that really knows how to hold that space. And as you said, the integration of that is everything, not the actual trip.

It's how you integrate it after. But an ego death for me was what was shown to me was it was just stripping back every single layer that isn't your soul, because the soul is pure, the soul is on.

You know, a is everything that that layers it, that makes people who they are. And, trauma an imprint. So we can strip that back and give it a cleaning.

We return back to that. And so the ego death for me was becoming spirits in, In the Abyss. There was no point addressing this. We age because our telomeres shorten and our stem cells deplete.

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Yeah, I think that's beautifully stated. And I think every time we go to sleep, we're there, right? We're instantly there. We're not embodied in our identity as such.

Yeah. But, I, you and I have kids about the same age, born around 99. And they both I happened upon and you joked about. You waste your youth, you know, studying and having kids.

But I think we both had kids that transformed when they did psilocybin in a safe and supportive environment. Right. Maybe eco death is a daunting term.

Maybe the experience of just being one with true reality, as you say, like source consciousness. Yeah, I don't really even believe in all this crystal stuff.

I went to consciousness math all but it's, under the radar, believing that it's, I'm I'm talking a little bit about. I'm backing into it because, like, I'm a medical doctor, super skeptical.

And yet I have the Pandora's box of being open minded, so I listen to anything. Yeah, but unless I experience it, and I think we all have the experience of that epiphany, that frisson, right?

You get goosebumps when someone says something that's so true. Right? So it's like trying to explain someone what a beautiful sunset over the Pacific Ocean looks like until you felt it.

It means nothing, right? So I think just having my son, your daughter be outside their ego for six hours or whatever it was, was like, oh, okay. Wow. There is another way.

I don't have to be in my story. Right? So let's talk to people who never done drugs. I mean, we were talking about a lovely lady who was in her 80s doing drugs.

I let the term drugs, even the term the modifier recreational, like you're doing this as a fun, hedonistic escape. You're a degenerate, right? So there's so much that the war on drugs and the sort of morality of it, which is an undeniable element.

I mean, I don't think even marijuana is not benign. Totally. I think that the idea that, people who live from cradle to grave only in their ego story, they are now availing themselves over the last five, six, six, six years, the ketamine associated, psychotherapy at low dose is there, and not everyone can go to the Amazon or find, you know, sort of death doula or a shaman to help them.

But if people are curious, I mean, obviously they can do a Google search. Watson Street, ayahuasca or psilocybin or ketamine. I'm not a big fan of ketamine, but I know it's been a great legal gateway.

The first question and, newbie would ask, well, is this legal? Okay. And is it safe? And how can I get started? So where would you start in terms of people's gateway to, you know, psychedelics therapy?

Obviously they come to see you and you can do whatever is appropriate for them. Yeah. But, if I'm a total newbie, I'm asking, is this legal, is it safe?

And where do I start? Right. So who will ketamine. Ketamine is legal, which is why it's being used. It's also being I feel like it's being used and abused as well because it's falling into a lot of the wrong hands.

And also because it can be prescribed, you know, medical doctors, surgeons, whatever they can, they can prescribe it, but they don't have a therapeutic background to hold that space.

So there was a there's a company in Costa Rica, this was my experience or that, that sends out to you sign up to do 12 sessions. It cost a fortune. I had a friend that did it, but, she wanted to help some trauma, and they send a beautiful package of everything that you need for the trip.

And there's a doctor online for the first session. Oh, my God, tell a musician. Okay, okay. He's online for one session and helps you drop in. And I was there with her to help her.

I wasn't the facilitator. I was a friend with experience. She said, can I come and sit with her? And after the first session, they just send you the packages in the mail and you do so.

So what happens is at the end of that session, at the end of the 12 sessions, that okay, well, I don't want to pay another five, $10,000. I can get this, prescription and enough people, you can get it anywhere.

So I'll just do it myself. And what my experience has been with ketamine assisted therapies, and this isn't for everyone, but people are falling back into addiction because it's so easy to obtain, and it's being used in the wrong way.

So if you go to a clinic with really experienced people, and there's a beautiful clinic that I went to in Toluca Lake that's just open with experienced medical doctors, psychiatrists, therapists that are holding space, you go somewhere like that to experience it.

Great. But there's a lot of misuse with ketamine assisted therapy, and it's also not for everyone. The most important thing when you're searching for where to go is make sure whoever you're speaking to does a really thorough assessment.

What are you coming in to do? What what do you what are the intentions around your work? What's your trauma? What's your experience level with recreational drugs?

In the past, have you done medicine journeys? Really start to get into someone's psyche because I've turned a lot of people away. I'm not in this for the money.

Although I'd like to make money, but it's it's it's so, I just think there's a lot of people working out of integrity. The main objective is to keep people safe and direct them to the right course for them and the right path for them.

So cut to me, and I have an I'm not experienced with ketamine to talk about it, but it takes you out of the pain body. So for bad PTSD, the patient or client is not re experiencing that pain to work through it.

They're getting a helicopter view and with the right facilitation doing MDMA or a mushroom journey or the two combined together, if it's if the journey is facilitated, you still won't re-experience your trauma because you'll be held through that and it's teaching you how to get out.

If you really where it's so important. Yeah, it's so important what people are really wanting to learn. They can watch Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind.

I do see that, yes, it's quite good. Yeah. So review some six classes. There's probably 20 classes of psychedelics. But you know, my friend who's a therapist and, she's a clinical psychiatrist, she asked me, hey, what did you learn at the Conscious Life Festival?

Yeah. You know, she were a speaker at. Yeah. I went to that lecture on psychology at night. So apart from, you know, I characterize it as such. You know, I learned only two things over three days, which is be kind to yourself.

Right. Hold space for yourself, which is so hard because so much of our life is chasing, finding, abandoning ourselves. Yeah, just breathe deeply. That's all.

And there's two types of people. There's like hippie chick, Burning man people, and maybe old guys that are still trying to make money off a stick. And there's a lot of, like, middle aged, like I used to work.

Karen's sister apparently is racist and derogatory, but there are a lot of women who are just traumatized, and they're trying to escape their trauma by examining their trauma at night, let out an involuntary laugh from a psychiatrist friend.

But I don't always think that the pathway to getting out of your trauma is thinking more about your trauma. It's self evident and little you're afraid of.

The trauma is this is, you know, what we're doing constantly is treating symptoms. And we have to get underneath the symptoms. No where does it come from. Because like those are the behaviors.

And what psychedelic assisted therapy allows you to do is strip the layers back and get out of the story and get into the raw truth. So using in pathogens like hot openers, MDMA and when that in, and pathogens I've no another term and theory and I never heard of pathogen.

That's great cycle and pathogens because it's a way to get you when people do this work they want a connection to gold spirit, that higher self, whatever that is for you.

I look at it as this is where all the noise resides and all the story, the attachment to stuff. So our higher selves, something higher is coming out. Oh yeah.

So we get out of this place and taking something, like MDMA that's very hot centered, which we then allows us to talk from our heart and get out of story because we're attached to our story.

And, and the medicine allows you to get underneath that, to get to the raw truth of starting to see. So once the heart is wide open, if you know that experience with mushrooms, mushrooms are master teachers.

They bring them wisdom. We don't have to do anything. We have to learn what one wants. We learn how to connect to the wisdom of the master. Teacher. Guides are.

It just guides us. I think so, and that was the experience with the shaman. I had no no confirmation bias, no prejudice, no suggestion, nothing to work with said other than just breathe.

And it was like an automatic program in the operating system to go back and look at your childhood and reframe it. And for the first time in my life, I looked in the mirror.

I didn't have this negative, kind of crazy overlay about what I was seeing. And so I think that there are pathways for it. I think that not everyone can find a good healer or shaman, right.

But I do think that eventually, even if you do the trip, you find the genius, you find the healer. Eventually, people are going to have to find their way back to loving themselves.

Like that's really that final integration, because that is the gateway drug to all the other things of feeling good. But, you know, unfortunately, you know, that shadow side of living in the victim consciousness of the scarcity mentality that is to protect you and it.

So it's a very benevolent rule even though it causes us suffering. But what do I know? I'm just a guy living in this life. So, what do any of you learn?

What you know? Well, that's, I think, up day by day, but that. But it's a rhetorical question, but actually, I think Satori enlightenment is available to all of us all the time.

And that, you know, consciousness not only is a filter and a gatekeeper, but it's also a barrier to enlightenment. Like, you know, being honest. We're firing on all chakras, we're taking in source.

We're feeling the scarcity. We're feeling the love, the expression. All the chakras are always there. And, you know, it's it's quite beautiful to be living in the present, but it's also overwhelming.

So consciousness has many roles. It has the role of protecting us, helping us understand, but also a filtering out how amazingly perfect every moment is, like people are, they can't be blissed out all the time, you know?

Yeah. So anyway, if you, practice remotely, I know you still have your practice in London, in the UK, and you reside, in Hollywood. I'm invited to work with you. Yeah.

How would they do that? Or, through email or, connection somehow, and I, I would so it's a bit of goal.com. Is that the primary? Loretta at Loretta Goal.com.

Loretta. And the website is Loretta Holcombe, correct? Yes, yes. Excellent. Yeah. Well, I mean, so lovely. I love your, you have the all the benefit is in the background, the acoustic guitar, the San Pedro. So, It's been it's been really good talking to you.

I'm glad that, you are out there. Well, it's such a great way. Can I just please one thing. So when we talk about kind of doing the journeys, what for me to do was I couldn't get out of my head.

I couldn't see beyond the talk. And it showed me in frames. It showed me in imagery what I was in, what I was in, and what I needed to do to heal. So it was incredibly powerful.

So just to circle back to how I started, there is a place for therapy. There's a place for everything. We have to have a toolbox. And in that toolbox we have different tools that suit different people.

So it's a combination of lots of things. But when you were invested in your healing journey, there is so much help out there. This work is absolutely magic.

I may truly, truly believe in it with every fiber of my being because it held some very deep trauma for myself. It saved. I would say it saved my life and my daughters and the I have facilitated hundreds of different people and groups, and this work never ceases to amaze me.

It's truly profound, deep rooted, and it's beautiful. And if you want to heal, you can. I love that, and that's such a hopeful message and a pragmatic message based on experience.

And again, I would say as the devil's advocate, because I am kind of like that. If you don't want to heal, you don't have to. Exactly. But then you cut, but then coming back to the old again, that's a choice.

But that's very, you know, but there's like, like reincarnation in the great cycle. But even with therapy or whatever, like if my dating life is extreme.

Yeah. Recurring trauma self-inflicted. So, I think that there is that kind of funny dark side to, like, if you're really if you're secondary gain. Right?

The meaning of your very existence is to wallow in whatever dysfunctional power you claim is hurting you is your secret motive, then you're not going to heal.

Which is also reassuring. But yeah, that people don't love change. But it is available and it can open doors to greater and greater pleasure and happiness and joy.

Right? So it's good to know that it's out there, you know. All right. Well thank you Loretta. It's it's so lovely to know you and to meet you. And I hope people do avail themselves of getting in touch with you.

Absolutely. They can email me and thank you. I was a pleasure to talk to you. Likewise. Thank you. Okay. Take care. Have a great day. Thank you for tuning in to Doctor Talks.

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