Could Mold Be A Trigger For Fibromyalgia?

Introduction to Mold and Fibromyalgia 0:00

Hi. Welcome. I'm doctor Roger Murphree, and I am your host from for the Freedom to Fibromyalgia summit. I have Brigitte Danner here. Brigitte is a frequent guest on my podcast and summits because she is an expert in mold, something that we're going to really dive into today. Condition that those of fibromyalgia oftentimes don't even it's not even on their radar. But Brigitte has written, a wonderful book. Her book is, the ultimate toxic mold recovery guide. And, I, recommend that book to to all my patients who have mold.

And we're going to talk in detail about that. She's an acupuncturist. She's got a wonderful website. She's she's, created some, some incredible products that really help those who are trying to get detox from all. So we'll talk a little about some of that as well. Brigitte, thanks. Thanks so much for being part of the the summit. I, you know, when we talked and we met, I guess 2 or 3 years ago at a member of our conversations about mold and bio toxins in the beginning. And I shared this with Evan Brand, who came on.

We spent some time talking about mold, and I remember thinking, golly, they're they think everybody has mold and is wrong with these nursing homes. I don't ever see it. Well, now that I started testing for 2 or 3 years ago, it seems like everybody has mold. What is what's going on? What is the deal with these mold toxins? Well, when you say everybody, is it all people coming to you with chronic illness? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, when I say everybody, I mean, all my patients that I'm working with who are primarily fibromyalgia patients, people with a chronic history, you know, chronic. Yeah.

Yeah, I bring up that part because I think it is a lot of the people who are dealing with chronic illness, it's it's a factor in their story. It's usually by the time you find out you've got, you know, Lyme and mold and heavy metal like it's they're all kind of finding it all out. It was this one sometimes. But mold really affects the immune system and neurotransmitters like we were talking about earlier. Adrenal glands the brain the gut. So it just really sets you up to let other in infections kind of thrive in you.

And other like imbalances continue to live for a long time. One of the reasons is you could still be in that same environment for a long time, or you could have gotten out, but never know you had mold and didn't really properly detox. Now it's colonized in your body, so you're still sick. So yeah, I think it is a background player. Quite a bit. You know, if we I always wonder, like if we took, you know,

How Mold Affects the Body 2:51

so many just random people off the street, how many would have mold and then could we compare their symptoms. Right. Because I think we all have some mold and. That's right. And some people are doing better than others. So there's just a lot to take those into play with. You know, genetics and other things in your health history. But yeah, I mean, I remember when I found out about my mold, I was like embarrassed that I had this, like, weird thing, like the no one would understand. And now if I'm like in an Uber and they're like, why did you move to Arizona?

Like, because I house I, you know, I live in this moldy home. And so we moved to Arizona and they're often like, oh, yeah, I've heard of that. I've heard about that. So things are changing. You know, even I would say more mainstream and there's more awareness that there is this thing that exists, you know, there's there's some awareness. But in conventional medicine, if you go to your doctor and you complain of the symptoms, typical symptoms of fibromyalgia, brain fog or sleep, diffuse achy pain, sometimes disabling pain, fatigue, irritable bowel, I mean, the list can be rather lengthy, you know?

And that's why sometimes, patients get accused of being hypochondriacs. But, you know, if you were to share these symptoms, the last thing and even functional medicine doctors, the last thing they're going to think about is, oh, well, maybe we need to ask them about more. I mean, it never even comes up in the conversation. And I shared this with Evan Brand, and Richie Shoemaker's book. You know, who kind of put more toxins on the map or wrote the book? All about mold toxicity. Mold. Mold warrior. Mold survivor.

I never can get the title right, I think. Warrior. Yeah, yeah. And when you read his book, he, you know, blatantly says he doesn't believe in fibromyalgia is real. He believes that it's just a made up diagnosis and that everybody that's been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and probably Lyme has bio toxins coming from mold that have set this thing up. And if you look at the symptoms, mold toxins, you know what they can they can generate, it's the very same symptoms with same fibromyalgia. So there's really not a huge disconnect.

I mean, there really is a connection between mold toxicity generating a lot of the symptoms that we would see in fibromyalgia. Right. You know, it's funny when you list it off a few earlier, you know, those were the symptoms that I had. Yeah. I, I, I live in the Molly house and got pregnant around the same time. I had just horrible back pain during pregnancy, after pregnancy, kept going. And I had IBS. I had to be, like, super strict with my diet, you know, didn't anxious, didn't sleep well, very anxious.

So, yeah, I think there can be an overlap. And sometimes, like, people think that mold symptoms are like a certain way. Like it's just like sinus or wheezing. An allergy. Asthma. Yeah. And I would say the two most common for mold are brain fog and fatigue. But even those two for me weren't the first two to show up. That wasn't until I was down, down in the dumps that, you know, those things became more persistent and pronounced. Yeah. I think the other thing is, that people think of mold like the mildew in your shower.

I think, oh, there's a little bit, you know, I see it on the shower curtain or whatever that is. And they think, oh, well, that can't be given me, you know, problem.

Symptoms That Overlap with Fibromyalgia 6:27

I don't want know. That's not that's not really not what we're talking about. No. Right. We're not talking about mildew. Really. I mean, we're talking they'll do is mold and mildew can be toxic mold. However, the amount just, you know, on a shower curtain, we could talk about nocturnes. And then, you know, one tiny thing isn't going to be enough, but lots of tiny things could be. But more likely, there's a leak inside the the wall. You know, something in the attic? The crawl space. I had a guy on my mold.

Someone said 100% of crawl spaces are moldy. 100%. Well, you know, that doesn't surprise me. As you hear was a 50% of the buildings have had some type of water damage. Yeah. And then what's the stat, that 25% of the population has a genetic predisposition to developing, an issue with chronic inflammatory respiratory syndrome Sears, which is mold toxins. And so you got 25% of the population is walking around the weak link is, is mold. And if they get exposed, they're going to be the canary in the, in the mine.

I mean, they're going to be the ones are going to show all those the symptoms. Yeah. Yeah I can manifest differently for different members of the family can be kind of hidden. Some people think, well, what what is the crawlspace have to do with me? Yeah. Air travels. I think that I've learned a lot about building biology in this process. I still don't know as much as the experts. But, you know, any something in your wall is not really trapped there, and there's, like, gases and cracks and like it, nothing is trapped really anywhere in the home.

So, yeah, like in our house, you know, most of our really, I could say the only mold that you could say was visible is like a teeny tiny, like, water stain on our trim in the basement. Other than that, like, I really couldn't tell you. Oh, I think my house is money. And yet, once we got into testing, it, ripping things up, there was a bunch of mold I was living in a rainy climate to, you know, does, you know, make it kind of harder when you're probably your climate is pretty humid, Roger. And. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So you more humidity, more rain. You know, there's more risk. But, you know, even here in Arizona, when houses are built correctly or, you know, there are some old homes, I do care some homes here with mold. Well, it's interesting because, you know, I have patients that are referred to me for fibromyalgia. And then when I'm doing the interview and I'm looking through their paperwork in their labs and, you know, and then I start asking them about mold. And now I ask everybody about mold. So my questionnaire and I just, you know, they it's never occurred to them that that mold could be a problem.

I've never smelled it. They've never seen it. Sometimes they didn't even know they had water damage, because I just moved into an old house and didn't know anything about it. But I've had, you know, several, new patients that in the middle of the in the middle of the interview, it became apparent that they didn't have the classic fibromyalgia where you have you struggle to fall asleep, struggle to stay asleep, low serotonin. All the things that we talk about here on the summit, it was obvious that their main problem was mold toxicity.

Oh one that was creating the symptoms that all their doctors had. You know, finally, after going all these different doctors now, they said, oh, you have fibromyalgia and, you know, it it was something that and one way to them, it was a relief and another was like, oh my God, now I have to do, you know, because then you do the testing and it comes back and they're sky high. And some of these mold toxins, these mold strains. And you have to explain to them which is really hard, but, hey, you need to move out of your house until we can get this cleaned up.

Hidden Mold in Homes and Buildings 10:21

If we can get it cleaned up, that's hard. I mean, that's really hard to share that with somebody. And I can't even imagine being on the other end thinking that you're going to have to move out of your house or your apartment or your place of business, because every time you step into that facility, it's making you sick. Yeah, yeah. It's huge because our our places mean a lot to us. And we have two different kinds of attachments. You know, good or bad. So it's tough. It's like you're already not feeling well. You may not.

It can't even work. And now you either have to move or spend $10,000 on your place. And, you know, unfortunately, there's really there's really no shortcut. I mean, I do say that they're going to be like synchronicities and like opportunities when you open to them, you know, about a temporary housing you could get or help you could get. But it's, you know, if your space is quite moldy and your body and you're quite sick, you have a dangerous combination. And it's like, you know, we've had so many hurricanes and stuff lately.

It's like, you know, if your house is just taken away. We all understand that this is, you know, being an act of nature. But if your house is there and we're saying, like, take your house away or move away when it becomes like a decision, it can be quite a bit harder. Unless you're Evan Brandt, if he feels like that guy, he was just like, nope. You know, I really I see the spectrum, you know, he's so dedicated to health. You know, he had built a house himself, you know, amazing house that got compromised.

And he just up and left. It just didn't bring anything. This is like a bad act, you know? So I do see, like all I think it has to go go with like some people are already pretty minimalist. Pretty whatever. But I've, you know, I've seen people still in their, in their Okano say, fighting with HOA five years later, they're telling me they're getting sicker and sicker. I'm like, get why get out of there? So I think our brain isn't working well. You can't sometimes make great decisions. Do you think that everyone needs to move out if they find mold and and and they get I guess they get tested and they realize that there is, validity that those mold strains are probably causing their health issues.

Do you think they have to move out to get rid of it? Get rid of it? You know, I think if it is a combo of some real illness and and a real clear problem in the home. Yes. Minimum while you remediate because I stayed in the home well during remediation, some of it. And that was a mistake. I will say, Roger, I'm more of a fan of moving on than than redoing the home because it's so hard to get it exactly right. Yeah, it's telling you sometimes replacing the docs, not even just cleaning them, replacing the dirt.

I mean, we've spent tens of thousands of dollars on our house, and we were still too traumatized to even try there again. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's better generally, you know, it it's like again, kind of comes down to attachment. It's like you still have your yeah, it's hard. It's hard and it's I feel I feel for him. But I've got this one patient that I'm thinking of that she had mold in her, own house and that had moved him in a few years, but she obviously had more or, I mean, you know, so I got her to do the D VIX test, the visual.

Contrast sensitivity tests that Shoemaker recommends. And that came back, you know, just she was really you could you have definitely a lot of bio toxins up on that. So what had tester and there she she tested positive. And, you know, it's I think I see this a lot, and you probably do too, is that people have been exposed to mold in the past. They may have even gotten out of that facility, but that mold is still in them, so it's still giving them issues. And then if they get around some mold seasonal changes, you know, foods that you eat, some of those are moldy, you know, and that humidity here in the South, I mean, things like when it rains, that would set them off.

And that's what was happening with her.

When Mold Exposure Becomes a Major Health Issue 14:39

She I got her it took six months to get a clean test on her. So showed that all the mold was out of her. Her. We she tested her new house. It was clean, but she went off to, up to, Where was she? Somewhere in the northeast, I don't know, stay with some friends for a month. And an old house a month. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. You know, it was really rainy and, you know, came back and it just set her off. She she had all this, these and, you know, she had all these, symptoms once again. So it's something that is every, you know, so definitely a challenge to get rid of that and get it out of your life.

Yeah, it's a process. And, you know, in a way, I'm thankful for having going through a because I was a practitioner with a lot of resources at my fingertips. It still took me a long time. So I never tell people any kind of quick recovery. I mean, I've seen some quicker recover recoveries like, I mean, it's almost best case scenario, if you move into a place and you find mold fast and you get it pretty fast, there's a best case scenario. Most of us have been in the place a long time, and so they really develop issues.

And yeah, there's a recovery period like you're talking about with your client. It's not like you get out and you're done. Now your body is like dumping and detoxing. Yeah. The systems are off. Yeah. But it does get better. Like I think some of my clients will I know, like they'll call ahead to a hotel and ask questions like, I don't do that stuff. Like, I'm I'm fine. Really. Like, if I got sick and I'm only house for a month, no, I wouldn't be fine. But I have other sensitivities. And so working through just.

It doesn't even have to be mold anymore, right? It can just be anything airborne or foodborne, like you mentioned. That just sets off that, that alarm system. Oh, we're dealing with this again. So I have trouble and there's no smoke in the air or allergens. So now I'm working through some deeper level stuff to try to like lose that sensitivity was, you know, so some people are much more sensitive than others. So you can have a family and you have maybe the the husband has a genetic glitch. You know, his was an out la Dr..

Thanks. What we test for an app that shows you genetically he's predisposed to to mold toxins. Everybody else is fine. He has all the symptoms. No one else does. Why could that not be fibromyalgia? I mean, you know, I mean, you've got this, you know, fibromyalgia, I think is, you know, it's just a name given to describe a group of symptoms. There's definitely an underlying cause or causes, plural, that are creating these symptoms. And, you know, from functional medicine, the way that we practice, we're trying to find what is the root cause or causes and then start to fix that resident is treating the symptoms.

But what I'm really wondering more and more each each day that I work with patients with fibromyalgia and in that mode is, is this a common straw that breaks the camel's back? Is this the thing that finally gets them? You know, because it's like it's opportunistic. They get under a lot of stress. Maybe they have a surgery that goes, you know, they have a lot of trouble with the surgery or they get under stress at home or whatever. But then eventually that mold that wasn't giving them any trouble, it just that's it I just can't handle.

And that sets them off. Yeah, I think in my opinion it's a little opposite. It's like the mold is slowly making them. Yeah. We get more. Yeah. And then you know, you add something to it that it's less like maybe for me, you know, I literally got pregnant and I'm mostly home. And then my body goes through the hardest, you know, changes it's ever went through. You know, as we see that with autoimmunity too. So, you know, it's interesting I had this conversation recently like is it always mold type of thing.

But I've been talking to some friends lately and their breast implants removed. That's a big topic now too. You know, there are other stressors out there besides mold, and I was neglectful or ignorant in my practice to not ask about that, for many years. So there are other factors. You know, I just much as I do very much believe, like there's a lot of mold out there. There are other thing, like I'm no heavy metal expert, but I know that that's in some people's cases playing a big role. So yeah, becomes just like this whole conglomeration of things.

But the thing I think is a little different of our mold is, is environmental. And you cannot stay in that home

Testing the Body and Home for Mold 19:30

and buy a bunch of supplements and do all these things and get better. It's going to limit you in that in that way. Like I really, you know, and I have clients come to me like that. Like I can't move for x, y, z reasons. So we talk about it I had is, you know, if I already brought all these products from Cell Core or this or that, it's like, I'm like, you can take them, but you're just wasting your money because you're going to have to take them again when you finally move. Yeah. So I'm pretty harsh about that because I know that you're just avoiding that harder decision, right?

Yeah. Well, let me ask you as far as testing. So a lot of people that they're clueless, they don't smell anything, can't see anything. But I really I'm under the opinion that anybody that has what I call a medical misfit diagnosis or medical misfit condition like fibromyalgia, it's hard to explain and even harder to treat. Certainly hard to get over. You know, as people have been to numerous doctors, you know, it's not unusual. I've been to 12 doctors over a 5 to 6 year period. They finally get the diagnosis.

But we could say the same thing about chronic fatigue syndrome and Lyme and some autoimmune diseases that don't even show up in blood work, either. I'm under the belief that if you're one of those people, you should at the very least test do the X test Dexcom. See what that shows. And probably be tested. You know, either test your home or test yourself or model how how, how do you recommend people test their home for mold their, their, their. Well, I say how it could be their business too, right?

Yeah. I got home and say home just because it's the more likely. But yeah, I just met someone recently. It was pharmacist Scott Stuckey Batra at work at a hospital hospital there. Big mess. Yeah. Schools, barracks, all sorts of things are, I'm assuming a nurse. They got it at the, you know, the cell, the VA, you know. Yeah. That's where yeah. They don't maintain those buildings. You know, properly either. So it can be tricky, you know, because there are there are more testing options now and it's like hard to say the best one.

And you know, sometimes things can get missed. So I, you know, I do put in my book, like all the kinds of testing I knew about at the time, there, I'll just tell you about like, a couple different dust tests. So one is the Army, and now there are some new variations of the army. The Army wasn't really designed for residential mold home situation. So reading it takes some special interpretation beyond what you're really going to get with your own eyeball. Or, you know, you really need somebody who's seen a lot of them understands at home, and you need to test, right?

Like you need to collect dust from different like, levels. You know, like floor metal high, like all over different areas. And then there's a mycotoxins dust test that I kind of like as a practitioner because instead of just telling you kind of what species of mold are around in that, that panel on the Army is not all about toxic mold. It's just kind of mold load versus like the outdoors. The mycotoxins dust test is for actual toxins given off by toxic mold. So I like that part of it. However, their results are underwhelming as well.

Like, kind of like you've got something or you don't and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't give you. I'd say, frankly, neither of them give you a sense of what to do next. So you need someone or some knowledge what to do next, right? Because it's just like functional medicine. It's like, well, where did that come from? Yeah, that's what you got to go fix. So it's just a first step, sort of like what the body of finding out some information. If you're a home owner, you know, you probably want to have a good inspector to come out like we had a great inspector, luckily, to do a moisture meter, you know, on the walls and check your gutters and check you, you know, we had all these problems we didn't know about.

Some people are renting. You don't want to do all that. There's also some plate tests that are really affordable. What is call the mic? I have it right here. You know, Linux, that's really affordable. And they can give you a guide to about, like, where to put the ones like you want one, you know, buy in your laundry room on your basement, and then you can if only if mold grows, you can send it back in with a label. And they will give you like a half an hour to interpret that. So there are I'm for for better or worse, there's a lot of options.

Some of them can miss things occasionally. Again, I wish this were all simpler and easier to say. It's not. I mean, there's different, you know, there's different, thoughts on this. And what do you think put you on the spot? What do you think of micro metrics? So the company if you familiar with micro metrics, there is a type of Ami or someone they just in the army, right. Yeah. I think they're, they have a test too. That's a PCR or PCR based test. Okay. They talk about, you know, I kind of feel like they're everybody that tests with them is positive, you know, kind of one of those things.

So it's it's it's really hard. You know, it's really hard to find a test that I think that is accurate, you know, to, you know, I, I really don't know if it's that accurate. Yeah. Yeah. And you know I don't want to frustrate people. I will say, you know, just like with the body like you Roger will do if you work with him, like you do a good history. Right. Think about a history of your home and and some people just forget that. Oh, yeah. That the bathtub plotted. You know, that time and we just put down some towels, then we're like, people think that's it, right?

But if there got there was moisture under the floorboard and it didn't dry in 48 hours, that's the key amount of time it can grow mold that even as the now becomes dry, the mold will actually, kind of sloughed off to try to find a new place to live. So it's not just like, dead, you know, and dried up as soon as the puddles gone. Right? There's all sorts of scenarios, you know. And now with all this crazy weather we're having, like, did you have a, you know, a great amount of rain and, you know, like for the house we lived in, we didn't have it, you know, graded away from the house correctly.

You know, our gutters were a little backed up and not draining correctly. So there is definitely again, I'm not the best person to but I'm starting to get a better sense of like what to look for. Any kind of staining you see anywhere is not good. You shouldn't have like a white stain in your garage or a black line.

Recovery, Relocation, and Long-Term Healing 26:30

I you're forehead. There shouldn't be any spot that gets wet any time it rains like every time. So there's there are ways to just start with like inspecting. And again it's a lot to learn and you know it people. I want it to be cheaper. Well, you really have to get to know a home and how to inspect it. Are you, you know, are you actually going to get in your crawlspace? Probably not. So get somebody else. So there are ways, you know, it's just tough because it just really is a lot to learn when you're not feeling good.

So if you can get help that you can afford, you know, it can take some of the burden off of you. Well, I do think you do a really wonderful job in your book, kind of laying out the pros and cons of the different testing. The push comes to shove, we're in agreement. I think ideally, if you can find somebody locally, they can actually come out to the house that has a good reputation that you trust. I think that's the way to go. And let them, you know, they will. And I think that if you've got a medical mystery illness, if you got a, an illness like fibromyalgia and, and you suspect intuitively or you do see signs of mold, or you take the box test.com and you see that you fail, that I think it's worthwhile getting yourself tested.

And, I like these guys. There's a couple. I'm out now, real time. And then, Great Plains, the micro toxic test, which I like. I like that quite a bit. And, you know, it's it's not, you know, it's not inexpensive. It's not. It's not real expensive. You know, $300 or something. I think that test is, but if you've got an illness like fibro, you're really trying to figure out what is going on. What is what's one of the triggers, you know, this can be a big trigger is creating the symptoms that we just pass off as, oh, that's just fibromyalgia.

Because yeah, ironically, like testing your body from all of this point is like easier than your home and cheaper it is. And yet and I've gotten to the point I just don't intend to test. So I just test it. They take the test scar and we see that that looks bad. And in the history that that I take with him, if there's any history of water damage, I just have them, you know, I just test them, forget them. Yeah. We'll deal with that afterwards. Yeah, exactly. Because if you see it in black and white on your body results and you may see something quite shocking that may motivate you or your spouse to, you know, take the next step in the step.

I mean, that's a biggie. You know, with, with with fibro. So the spouse oftentimes doesn't understand what their spouse is going through. Usually it's a female 95% of the people have fibro or female, and they, you know, let's do the same thing with mold. I hear patient tells him, oh, doctor Murphy says, I've got mold. We gotta get it out of our house. When you hire somebody there, you know, typically I should say typically, but but unfortunately, sometimes they're reluctant to do that because there's an a cost associated with it.

And I understand that. I mean, it is I mean, it's it's scary. And I guess it's important to point out that everyone that's listening to this, not all of you have mold, but if you're, you know, if you're one of those people falling through the cracks, no one can figure out what's going on with you. Try all these different things. Don't neglect getting tested for mold. You know that can be a missing piece of the puzzle. It could be one piece, but it could be a big piece of putting the you together again.

Yeah, I would say it took me seven and eight years, seven at least to of symptoms to, to finally consider mold. So yeah, I just felt like people were just pulling this out of nowhere. Right. It's usually like you've looked at, you know, all sorts of things. You cleaned up your diet, you change your cleaning product, you've done all this stuff and you're still not feeling well. Right. And that's such a frustrating feeling. So yes, it's a lot to take on, but I can tell you, you know, where I go to where I am now.

I was on one of these interviews, Roger, and somebody asked me, well, where do you think you'd be like if you didn't find out about it? And I was like, I think I'd be dead. I think I just, I would, I would have killed myself. Like, I just was having suicidal thoughts like, yeah, is this stuff is, you know, not make believe. It's it becomes as people listening know, like if you're having real chronic illness with, you know, I was having lots of fevers and this and that and it's like it's no way to live.

Yeah. So, you know, it's another 3 or $400 to test your body for mold. Because I've been impressed with how well the body can recover. It's not overnight, but. Yeah, I mean, there was things I thought, oh, I just can't recover this or that. And, you know, I'm almost all the way there. And I've learned so much about health and detox and and self-care. I'm going to be like the healthiest old person lying there is, right? Because I've built all these habits. Yeah. Well, so people I think that times people kind of dismiss more and I know I was guilty of that.

But when you look at what can happen to your body when you get infected with mold, cancer, cancer's a big one. Shutting down your kidneys. So, you know, chronic, CKD, chronic kidney disease. I had a patient here recently. Hell, I traded years ago for fibromyalgia and lupus, and she was doing fantastic. She was a tough case, but she did great. Been in remission for a decade. Almost a decade here and then. But, she moved in. She she moved into her own house and started having some symptoms, started showing up, and then she got colon.

And then she ended up going to the doctor and found out in some of the blood tests, she had problems with her kidneys that the labs were showing some kidney markers, got referred to urologist and said, you know, your kidney is shutting down. And then she said, well, what? You know, what can I do now? What's the cause? We don't know. What can I do? Well, not anything you can do. You know, you just have to go on dialysis eventually. Well, he knew better than to listen to that. I mean, she so she reached out to me, and I, you know, I didn't really know what was going on, but it turns out she's saturated with mold.

And I'm sure that, you know, the Covid and the cytokine storm contributed to that. But, so she treated her and six, about four months later, she goes back to the urologist. He says, I don't know what you're doing, but everything's clear. Wow. Readings. Everything's normal. Now. I don't take credit for that. I mean, I was just lucky enough, I think, to have met people like yourself and some other people that really tune me into that, about moan, and I called that. But here, somebody that was really facing dialysis in the next two years, with kidney failure.

And it was all due to this, these, these mole toxins. So they can be very dangerous. Very dangerous. Yeah, very much so. Yeah. And there's I certain mycotoxins are to that especially natural. Toxic. Is that the where are they going to use. Yes. Kidney. So yeah it's when you dig into like the literature has a lot right. A lot of that came from animal husbandry and, and that because animals are generally eating grain and feed and it was moldy and so and it's, it's, it's a big business to keep your animals healthy.

So there's actually been quite a bit of study that started from all that world, which is pretty interesting. So yeah, if people are wondering if there's, you know, information, about mold, there's actually quite a bit, and it is a little scary, which I just think is just use it as a motivator to, you know, take action because, yeah, if you stay in that environment, you know, heart disease, cancer, I'll, you know, I mean, my eyelid was twitching, you know, it's losing things like I just kind of gone on like that.

So you mentioned somebody's going to stay in a house that is moldy. You know, another option just to kind of give people ideas, like, sometimes going away is good. Like, you can't go stay with someone at the beach or whatever, and it's okay to like, ask for help. It's not easy to ask for help, but, you know, some, you know, sometimes people will help you with, a temporary living change. And sometimes you will feel better right away. It can be sometimes hard to tell, depending on the circumstances.

But that's one thing. Something we'll do is just take an experiment away from the home with a certain amount of time with a relative or what have you. And they do notice that, their symptoms start to go down. Well, I think that's a great interview question as a physician, just to ask them, do you feel better when you leave the house or you feel better when you're away from work? Now, you know, there could be stress associated with the household or stress with the business, but, when you ask somebody, you know, do you feel better when you go on vacation and you kind of dig into that and you realize that they when they get out of that moldy environment, their symptoms improve.

You know, there's there is definitely a, a cause and effect that you can help them see. And, and sometimes that's the only clue, you know, because you don't smell anything, you don't see anything. But it's the fact that every time you step foot in your house, you're becoming sick again. Yeah. Like for me, I would say, like, unfortunately, I didn't have, like, a summer home in the Hamptons, but I was out more and I was traveling more and the weather was different. Right. So in the summer, I would generally feel better, and the winters I'd be a lot worse.

And I just thought, oh, you know, I don't have great immunity. It's like cold and flu. But I would seriously, every two weeks have have a cold or flu. Roger and I had a sore throat basically all the time. You know, that's an immune system that's not working correctly. So sometimes you do have to like, think about it a little bit. But yeah, I was always in a very wet climate indoors, more in my moldy home more. And now looking back, it's like, oh yeah, of course I got sick every winter. Yeah, yeah.

Well, listen, Bridget, I want to make sure to mention your website because I want people to go. So you've got a lot of resources at your website. And I really want to, you know, there's really not that many books out there. I mean, there's a few. Rich's book. Oh, is a hard read. It's a long, torturous read. And, you know, to get that some of that, I like your book because it's very practical. It's easy to read. It's practical. It's a lot of, you know, here, do this, the do it yourself DIY, DIY stuff in there, which I really like.

So I want to encourage them. What's the website? I have it well, I like your book. You showed your book. This is my website. It's just my name, which is Bridget Danner, and the book is the ultimate toxic one. Oh, God. Poverty guide. Yeah. Which says kind of still say this is a bit in its infancy. I mean, there are some good more books out there, but not many. And there really wasn't one that addressed, like the whole picture, because it is like a whole thing, right? You can't just I mean, I'm more I'm stronger at the body part.

But I was like, I know if I leave the home for now, people are going to be confused. So I really put it all, all in there and the emotional journey because like you said, it's it's very difficult. You feel very alone. So I just try to, you know, hold space for okay, now you're at this stage and you might be freaking out about this, and just kind of like, just hold you through the whole process. Yeah. Well, Bridget, thank you so much. It's been an interesting conversation. It's it's one that I'm, I really feel like needs to be, shared often in, in the health community is something that's just, as you said, it's just now starting to get out there.

And I think we need to change that and, and get people make people aware of more toxic toxins and that whole issue, you know, like we did with Lyme. You know, people didn't even talk about Lyme until a few years ago. I think we're going to see the same thing with mold. And again, I will encourage people to check out, Bridget Danvers website. So Bridget Entercom. So thanks so much for being part of the summit. Joy hanging out with you. Yeah. It was really great to kind of give examples. I think that was a nice style.

And yeah, people can always reach out to us if they have any lingering questions. Thanks everybody.