Four Generations of Trust: Lessons from an Australian Dentist on Building Lifelong Patient Loyalty

Podcast Introduction and Guest Welcome 0:00

Welcome to the Doctors Making a Difference podcast where we help physicians to be empowered with the tools they need to successful in medicine, in finance and in life. Join us as we highlight doctors and other professionals around the world who are making a difference. Most guests on this podcast are doctors and most of the physicians practice in the United States of America. Today, we have the opportunity to hear from an Australian dentist. So a little bit of a change from our normal course. Dr.

Sasha Rutnam is an Australia dentist with over 30 years of experience, and she is super passionate about the dentist or physician-patient relationship, how to maintain relationships over time, And some of correlations that happen between medicine and dentistry. So today we get to learn what we can learn about medicine from the perspective of an experienced dentist halfway across the world. Super excited to have Dr. Rutnam as a guest. I think you'll really enjoy this episode. Today's an exciting day on the podcast.

We get have a dentist. we've never had a dentists on this program. i'm very excited welcome Dr Sasha Rutnum. Dr. Rutnam is an Australian dentist. She's in Sydney, Australia, and I think it will be very interesting to hear her perspective on dentistry and medicine and how they correlate. Again, the podcast is called Doctors Making a Difference. Dr Rutnem, we talk a lot about physicians who make a difference around the world. We're going to talk about your perspective as a dentist who's also engaging in that important work.

Would you mind introducing yourself to our audience in more detail? Thanks, Peter. So I'm a dentist based in Sydney, Australia. I am a general practitioner. Now I do the general dentistry. Live and work in the area. Some five minutes away from my practice. And now I want to my fourth generation of patients. Great grandkids coming through and I love what I. Do I still working because I loved what.

Building Trust Through Time and Communication 2:06

What I've done this for. 30 plus years now and we do a little bit of high-end services like orthodontics and surgery and implants but the bread and butter of the practice is general dentistry and I'm passionate about patient communication and transferring treatment options in a clear manner to patients and being able to retain that trust and loyalty. I've got patients that travel from five hours away to see me. We're in the busy suburban area of Sydney. There are lots of dentists around us. It's not like I'm the only dentist, but it's because of that connection.

and the trust that's been built that they refuse to see anybody else. And that that is lovely and flattering, but it's also been a lot of work building that trust. I think that what I am passionate about teaching other dentists about making connections that last a lifetime. That's a great answer. And that is impressive if you maintain people across four generations, folks who are willing to travel five hours away, and people who were willing select you as their dentist as opposed to other dentists that might be in the area.

There's lot of correlation with physicians because we also have to build trust. So across your career again you've mentioned you done it for over thirty years what's the most instructive thing you would tell a young dentist or young physician who says i have the skill set but i need to build trust with my audience so that i can make the impact that I want to make. So I found that spending the time is what really makes a difference. If you're rushed and you don't communicate adequately, that's when things fall apart.

So, I've always told my dentists, the ones that work with me and the one's that I now coach that allocate enough time. You know, I know you're running a business and time is money, but at the end of the day, building that trust with a patient, communicating effectively makes a huge difference. It also avoids legal implications of complaints, et cetera, if you spend the time and explain things well to patients. So I think time is really important allocating enough time. Oftentimes I find if you rush, that's when things can go wrong and you might miss and might assume the patient knows what's in your head.

But if don't get that across to the patients, then things go downhill from there. So I think allocating enough time, making sure the staff are on board and that they allocate the right amount of time for you as well. I won't spend less than an hour with a new patient. It's not an error of me working in their mouth. That's probably about 30, 40 minutes of talking and then the rest is. what we do. So I think that first appointment, I find that's where you really build trust. And spending that extra bit of time makes a huge difference.

Trust building is really important, as any healthcare professional. They come to you about their health and their body is really important that you build that connection from day one. And that's really for retaining patients, I find, because there are lots of dentists out there, especially in the area that I practice in. But if you built that trust, they're going to want to stay with you. Retention of patients is such an important thing in a busy urban practice. So I want to reflect on that for a minute.

Thank you so much for answering that. So, I heard once when I was younger that love is spelled T-I-M-E. If you want it to show someone that you care about them, you must spend time with them. And that's hard. Just to kind of reflect even on our interactions, Dr. Ratnam, You and I tried to set up a podcast several weeks ago and we set aside the time and i was excited about it was ready and We had to cancel because I was delivering a baby. There was no way I Was trying to email and text a message all, you know halfway across the world to say hey i'm delivering the baby I can't come but that's really the crux I find in my profession is how do you carve out time?

In a busy practice where there's so many needs and patients have so different things that they need, how do you find time to make the person in front of you feel like they are front and center so that even though you do have five other things on your mind and people waiting for you, How can you create that space and time so then in those moments you created that trust? I think that all comes down to scheduling by your staff. They've got to make sure that the amount of time that you require is allocated.

I have emergency spots in my day. So if there's an emergency, they're booked in there. Is sacred and you cannot cut into it. I don't have staff coming into my room and interrupting me and talking to me about something that's going on outside. It's irrelevant when a patient's in with you. That's their time. And there's front and center of your attention. You're not thinking about anything else apart from them and they can see that they distracted or, you know, You're looking elsewhere, looking out the door or seeing what's going on down the corridor.

That's not what is ideal. When they're there, your looking at them. Your eye contact is with them and you're focusing on their needs. that's really hard to get that structured in practice. but it's something you've got to instill from day one with your staff. And I do this with my associate dentists as well. I tell them, look, you make sure when the patient's in front of you, that's who you're focusing on. We've gotten into this profession because we're empathetic, caring people, I'd assume, if you were in healthcare.

You'd help. and we need to transfer that across to the patients. The patient needs to know that we are there to help them and that I think the care factor is kind of dropping now.

Australian Dental Care and Training Overview 7:49

People are so caught up in getting things done quickly. I don't think that's the way we should be heading. At the end of the day, patients want to feel and see that they're cared for. That's really tricky. Time is money and all that. You've got to think of a bigger picture. Do you want them to see the patient once and never again, or do you the generations of them and their friends, each patient can potentially give you 10 to 20 other patients, their family, friends. They'll only refer if they've had a good experience.

If they haven't had good experiences, they're not going to refer a friend. I think the patient experience, especially in dentistry where there's a lot of anxiety and fear with having treatment done, that trust building is super important. I like what you said. Setting the table early on, setting aside time that first visit. Like in my career, when I have someone that's an outpatient, they're coming in on a day when i'm not delivering a baby and we have everybody sat down. We have double booked the patient.

They have time and that is important to sit eyeball to eyeball, face to face and create a connection and understand what the person and then the next visit may not take so long. It is challenging though because there's so many distractions in medicine that I just like what you said. It's important for the person who spent their time and taken time off of work or whatever it may be to come in and be there and realize you're my top priority right now. And if there is a disruption. I found that I have to explain it to the patient, say, there is a disruption in the schedule, but you're just as important to me as you were when you came in.

And if it's that big of a disrupt, I usually sit down with them and tell them what's going on and say I've been called to deliver a baby, for example. But here's my card, here is my number, and we said another time to please come back. I hate doing that. But the person needs to know that they're a priority and that if I get called away, it's not because I'm a distracted person. It's because there's something else that really was more important. Most patients are really understanding if they get that level of communication.

Yes, but you've communicated. You've apologized. And that's all they really want. If you didn't acknowledge them, that when they get upset. I had a patient the other day said to me, I just want to keep seeing you. Don't want see anybody else because the last time I saw somebody, they kept me waiting and they didn' even apologize. So I mean, keep people waiting sometimes. Sometimes things run a bit over schedule. Scheduling is not. Perfect. But I apologize and I say to them, look, I'm so sorry. And if you've got somewhere to be, we can reschedule this or you apologize for running late.

Their time is valuable too. So take just a minute. You've written a couple of books. you have really been passionate about this subject and i want to get into the meat and the details of that. but take a sidebar with me for just minute, teach my audience, almost all of us are US based physicians, How does the dental care system and the healthcare system work in Australia? Most people who listen to this have never been to Australia. So if I want to go to a dentist in Australian, do I have to have medical insurance?

Is it covered by government? Does it private pay? What's the structure like? Just give us a little bit of Dentistry 101 for someone who's never So unfortunately, I suppose we're very similar to the U S we don't have a state funded dental service. We have upload dental hospitals in the whole of New South Wales, which is our state. And we have. Clinics that offer free dental services, but it's a long wait. So there's huge demand for it. Then there is not enough dentists or facilities to be able to cater to all the people that don' have private insurance or are within the low socioeconomic group, they really do struggle.

So we do have issues with people that can't afford private dental, having dental problems and not being able to see a dentist. The patients that do go see their dentist regularly would have private health insurance, the majority of them would, and they get rebated a portion of the costs, not all of it. And some patients would go to a private dentist and no have health insurances and just pay everything out of pocket. So it's mostly private, so there's no public system for dental, unfortunately. No, thank you for answering.

The second question is that people have curiosity about how many years of schooling does it take to become a dentist in Australia? In the US, usually an undergraduate degree followed by four years' of general dentistry, and then a lot of people will do additional training to becoming an orthodontist or an endodentist, or whichever of the subspecialties of dentisty.

Books on Oral Health and Patient Communication 12:22

How does that compare to the Australian system? So the current system is some of the dental schools are postgraduate and some are undergraduate. So when I went through, it was all undergraduate, so you finished your schooling and you went straight into dental school, you spent five years in dental and then you got registered. You didn't have to do an internship, You got register straight away and could go out there and open up your own practice or work for somebody or, work in the public system.

But now it's an under, Few dental schools now have an undergrad plus post-grad to get through dental school. So it would be three plus four, seven years. And then it's another three years if you want to be a specialist, so 10 years off, if we want it to a be specialist. But if, you're, just wanting to, be your general dentist anywhere between five and seven. Okay. No, thank you for answering. And like I said, that was kind of a sidebar for those who are interested, who have never been there. I was like, ma'am, they want to answer that question.

Come back with me now to our original stream of, of a discussion here. You've been a dentist, like you said, for over 30 years, you still do it. you love your patients. Your on your fourth generation of dentists.You've talked about spending time building that trust upfront and the patients really value and all of that.you felt so inspired by this experience and what you've observed that you written a couple of books about it, so please tell us about your books. How did that come about? So my first book was on the dental general health connection.

And I call it Beyond the Smile. We talk about the teeth are not just for smiling. They are part of your whole body and what happens with your teeth and your gums affects your general. With the research I did, I was quite surprised to find that even things like rheumatoid arthritis are linked to. some of the markers in periodontal disease. So it was quite fascinating. And it all came about from the fact that every single patient I see, I talk to them about dental health and how important it is. It's not just to look pretty and clean, it affects your general health.

And I thought, I've been talking to patients about this over and over again, why don't I do some research and write a book on it? And so I did. And this book is designed for the patient, not for other dentists, although some dentist have purchased it. It talks about all of the dental implications in diabetes, strokes, heart disease, some cancers, arthritis, Alzheimer's even. And there's a lot of research coming out with the critical connection between oral health and general health. The second book was written for dentists or any healthcare professional really.

That's about communication with Patients. So I call it dental patient communication made simple. And it goes through numerous scenarios of where communication can break down with a patient. It doesn't necessarily have to be dental, although it's written based on dental experience and dental scenarios, you know. an anxious patient, how to deal with that, when something goes wrong, there's a complication. How do you deal that? And a lot of it is from my own experience, but also using some cases of patients, obviously withheld patients' names that I've had to sort of deal over the 30 years.

And what I found is things can go wrong. We're all human. And doctors do this really well. You know, a surgeon can operate on a patient and go, okay, it didn't go as well as planned because they communicate that this can happen. Oftentimes the dentist will do a root canal and then the tooth might get reinfected and the patient goes, doc, you said you treated this tooth, what's going on? It's because the dentists hasn't spent that time going through complications and what might happen? If you really look at a root canal on an upper molar tooth, the success rate is not very high.

It's we would say, I would stay anywhere between 65, 70% because there are all these additional canals that we can't see. We've got CTs now so we an see a little bit more, but it's still not adequate. So it has quite a high rate of failure in upper molars. That needs to be communicated to the patient before you start the procedure or before, you know, book them in for the procedures because they need to go in knowing that there's chance of failure. They need to know about things that can go wrong during the treatment.

You know, an endodontic file can break within the canal. And a lot of dentists are in such a rush to get things started, they just jump in. All right, you've got a sore tooth, it needs a root canal, let's go. Let's do it now. That's when things can fall apart. So I don't ever start treatment on the day. I'll give them time to think about it. Give them written consents. verbal information and get them to think about it before they even start the treatment, as you would in the medical field. Nobody goes in and has a knee reconstruction done on the day that they have the consult.

So yeah, I think they just operate differently. We're so keen to pick up a drill and start on that day. And this is something I've been coaching a lot of dentists to sort of spend the time, talk, explain things to the patient before you actually do the There's two points you hit on that I think really reflect some of my experience. Number one, when patients go see a surgeon, for example, and they come back and say, I don't know about this person, we didn't agree, or I didn t like the way his socks look, something that they don t see eye to eye with, try to see the person that is going to be your surgeon or your proceduralist as a human being and come to understand where they're coming from.

But at the same time, you must have that relationship of trust because there will be a certain percentage of people that have some kind of complication. And if you already thought that the person doing your surgery was a bad person or a jerk or was mean, You're going to immediately say in your brain, I shouldn't have done it with Dr. So-and-so because I knew he was jerk from the beginning. But if you already have that level of experience, like, I know and trust this person. Dr. So-and-so, she would help me no matter what, and she'll be there with me through the thick and the thin.

I will trust the doctor, he or she, to take me to this experience. Like it just really helps people because you go into it with your eyes wide open, but there's this level of trust and an honor and mutual respect. And then if there is a complication, instead of saying, well, it was that lousy doctor, that Lousie dentist, you can say this person did their best. I would never tell a person to go ahead and do the surgery on an elective case if they really didn't like the surgeon. It's better that they have that level of trust.

The other one I was going to say is, you know how you talked about that overall health and body connection?

Why Relationship Skills Matter in Practice 19:38

I think we're trying very hard to transition on health questions from just treating the what or what's going on to try to figure out the why. We're always trying to find out why something happens. There's so much disease that really is based on our interactions with our microbiome, with the with, our general interaction with microbes in our environment, and it starts with a mouth. In most cases, people have a first interaction, you know, the outside world with their skin or their mouth or nose or mucous membranes.

And so if your mouth is really infected and you've lost your natural barriers and your national protections, You're going to be susceptible to all sorts of disease. We see it as healthcare practitioners, but I do think that's maybe even more important than we realize as physicians, how important that overall interaction with the outside world is, and our mouth is really key to supporting that. Absolutely. And I really wish more medical practitioners would send their patients to get their teeth checked.

Unfortunately, because it's not subsidized by the government, it is an expensive exercise in Sydney. But what we're finding now in Australia is a lot of the dentists, myself included, we would do the checkups and cleans for pretty much what the rebate from the insurance is. So they don't have a big gap. Sometimes they didn't even have the gap at all because we have some arrangements with the Insurance Company. That allows them, if they've got private insurance, to go twice a year and have it checked and cleaned without any out-of-pocket expenses, which then really builds up that preventative side of things because people are really hard to maintain, Peter.

You just need to look after them. I've got heaps of patients that don't have any cavities or don t have problems with their teeth. It's not just luck, it deteriorates from plaque and damage from bacteria. If you haven't had fluoride in the water, yes, of course, that's going to make a difference, but prevention is always going be better than trying to fix something and it's less expensive as well. We're really trying to push the preventative side of things by keeping the costs down for patients.

I think that's made a huge difference because it used to be 10 years ago, quite expensive just to go for a regular check and clean. But the market's just been so competitive that everybody's now doing it at a very low cost. Oh, that's wonderful. Before we hit record, I told you my son is doing mission work in New Zealand. And so that is a lot closer to where you are than where I am now. But I was thinking of a dental story about him. When he was about a seven-year-old boy, or maybe eight, we went to the dentist and he had seven cavities.

It was so many cavites and it cost over a thousand dollars and he had to go back to the dentist three times. And it was just this major thing because like, and we realized that he was at the age where we were asking him to do some of his own brushing and was supposed to floss and had not been flossing his teeth. And so we made a commitment like, okay, in our family, we floss. And from that time forward, he never had a, He didn't have a cavity again for, I think it was 12 years after that. He doesn't.

Have a single cavity and that was the one difference he made. You just started flossing his teeth. I'm like see it works, Josh. That was so funny. So people don't realize why dentists recommend flossing, but without flossing, Peter, you're only cleaning 60% of the tooth surface. 40% percent of tooth is in between other teeth. So you really got it. That's only one way to get in there is you've got to mechanically get it in with floss or any alternative to floss. You can't use just a toothbrush. No, it makes total sense.

I appreciate you're a champion for prevention, I'm a primary care doctor, so it sings to my heart. Let's shift for just a second. If you are a busy physician or dentist and you listen to this, It would be easy to say, sure that's relationship building, that time taking, these kind of soft skills that Dr. Rutnam is talking about. They're really nice for someone that is in private practice or they're nice to somebody else, but I'm busy. I've got to do X, Y, and Z. Why would you say that something like these relationship building and kind of sort of soft skills actually are beneficial for business?

Because a lot of people feel like time is money. How could I spend it? I can spend more time doing root canals or my procedure and not so much time investing. Why Would you Say that those skills do impact a person's overall business proficiency? Yeah, good question, Peter. Now, if you're working in the public system and you've got 30 patients that you need to see and get out of pain and, you'll never see them again, that's different. You can afford to just dump in there, do the job and not build a relationship.

But if your in private practice, the key to building a private practise is referrals, more patients, right? And one thing that is going to help you build, a practise, is getting a good reputation, that dentist really cares. That dentist is gentle. They looked after me. It got me out of pain. Nobody's going to go out there and say that dentists were so cheap and affordable. that's not what people want. they want somebody who cares for them, looks after them. So I think that the key to making your practice stand out from others, That extra level of care.

I had to sell it to a DSO, unfortunately, because I just wouldn't manage it. It was so big. And that's purely from just being, I'm not going to say I am the best dentist, but I think I m a good communicator and that s what's really built the practice. t's just people knowing that when they come to see us, they get the level of care that they want and they're happy to pay for it. That's the other thing. You can charge a little bit extra for your consultations if you want, just to get them. If you're worried about, you know, it's not a business savvy decision to spend an hour with the patient.

long-term what you're going to gain. And from that, it's kind of a loss leader almost. You're kind spending the time and not making that much money in that first visit, but long term, you've got them loyal. They're also more likely to do more and look after their teeth. If you spend an hour and tell a patient they need to, do such and such just to maintain their dentition, get an implant, whatever, they will do it because they, have built that trust with you. If you've only spent five minutes with them and then you start saying, Hey, you need this and this.

They're going to know you're just upselling. So it's really important to spend the time and explain why they need things as well. Cause the dentistry is very different to medicine with medicine. You know, you're in pain, and you know you've got to have a gallbladder removed. You've gotta have it removed, right? With dentistry, if they're not in paint, they'll defer. I think that's where explaining things clearly and spending that time, I'm a real big believer in spending time. And I really hate being rushed.

It's easy for me to say, I mean, a private practice in a fairly affluent area where people can afford to pay us. But I think you can take this across to everywhere. Like even if you're a surgeon, and I have patients come back and say I saw this orthopedic surgeon.

Lessons from Dentistry and Staying Passionate 27:28

He didn't even look at me. It just said, okay, we're booking you into operating. You'd probably see a lot of that as well where they might go to him because he's the best guy, but they're not going to send people there. They're going go, that was a terrible experience. I think you have to have a little bit of it's what we call chair side manner and you in medicine it would be bedside manner. People still talk about that patients still mention it to their friends and they are going to say that person really did spend the time and made me feel cared for.

Like you said, they're going feel more confident going into have the procedure done with somebody that they trust. I'd be the same. Yeah, me too. I think one way I heard it phrased is that emotional IQ will it matters more than your like your intellectual IQ every day and it's much more correlated with what's success in business success relationships success and friendships in every way motion like you seems to really be at the core of human interaction so understanding how to deal with another person.

That has to be the corner of how we start those relationships even if somebody's not really naturally adapted. making new friendships. If you just spend the time, look at them in the eye, talk to them, ask them what's important to, them even just those few minutes are valuable. And I can think of hundreds of patient experiences where they've gone to a specialist and had a wonderful experience, even though they only got to spend a fairly brief time. Then I could think just as many experiences, where the person was aloof and they started just immediately listing all the expensive things the, person needs to do.

And the person often does not carry through with the needed healthcare because they were still put off by that experience. So I do think what you're describing kind of goes around that kind emotional IQ learning that we all need to work on. It is a skill that can work and hone I believe. I also feel the younger patients, they're looking for more of that. In the past, I guess you'd just go and you see the dentist and just grip the chair and hate the whole experience, but You know, the younger generations, they're expecting a bit more than that.

They don't want it to be a forced thing. they need to feel comfortable. I think they are a lot more aware of EQ. Oh, yes. No, I totally agree. That emotional attendance. Absolutely. Well, so as we kind of come toward the end of this, tell me, are there any final lessons or thoughts you would want to leave? If you say, okay, talking to a whole bunch of physicians, US-based physicians. What can we learn from the dental chair? Are there are any other lessons you'd want teach us or leave behind? So this is interesting.

I'll tell you a story. At a school function, I was sitting next to another parent and he was an orthopedic surgeon. And he said to me, tell me Sasha, how do you work on patients while they're awake? Cause he doesn't have to touch a patient until they are anesthetized. Right? I turned around and said, to him with great difficulty. Because what we do, it is with great difficulty, we work on our dental patients. It's not easy. Patients don't like having things done in their mouth. Nobody does. They're awake for it and we're doing microsurgery on a little tooth while they're away.

That's really not a very pleasant experience for the patient. And it's a really difficult experience as a dentist because you're managing, you are doing this teeny tiny little, you know, within millimeters of a job while you've got a very anxious patient. So you're managing the anxiety as well as trying to do the job properly, microsurgery. It is a great difficulty that dentists practice every single day, which is why we do have a high rate of burnout. But I think surgeons don't realize that they've got the patient asleep.

So, you know, focus on just the job, whereas we're focusing on the, on job as well as trying to manage the patients anxiety. And that's really very difficult. Oh, yes. No, that is very difficult. The podcast is called Doctors Making a Difference. And one of the other questions I thought about as we visited, I can tell you love what you do and your patients love you. You're trying to pass this on and make it even better for the next generation of dentists. How have you maintained that level of passion and engagement after doing it for a lot of years?

A lot people do get burned out and they get tired of dealing with it. So how have maintained the level compassion and drive? Good question. And don't get me wrong. There are some days I think, Oh, this is just getting too hard because I'm getting old physically. It's hard. So I. As a dentist, you've got to be physically quite active. Otherwise you're going to end up with back and neck problems. Hmm. It's the patient interaction that keeps me going. As I said to you, I've seen these patients for a very long time.

You see them every six months or so, and you develop a bit of a friendship almost with them. And the communication and chatting to them, every time you see, them that's what brings a smile to my face. So enjoying the clinical work is one thing, but enjoying that patient It's really what's kept me going for this long. I've got a lot of friends who colleagues that have semi-retired because it's just burnt out. But I think for me, every time I feel like this is all too hard, I just think why am I here?

What am i doing? I do love what I, do I'm good at what i do and I enjoy treating my patients. And you know, you'll occasionally get a difficult patient, but I actually look at them as challenges and i've worked with some patients that have come in quite angry and worked up, they're only angry because they anxious. So you work around that anxiety and in fact, some of them have become some my loyal patients. They were quite tough to deal with at the beginning, but once you win them over, you've got them for life.

So I think what keeps me going is I would say the interaction with the patients. That's awesome. And I do believe, as I've talked to many physicians all over the place, there's a theme there. Almost everybody says the same thing. It's not the procedure that keeps coming back. it's the patience and this genuine care and love that I have. for these people who've entrusted me with their care. And I can tell you, have that love for your patients. I think it's great and I appreciate you taking the time halfway across the world to teach us what we can learn from the dental chair from an experienced dentist from Australia.

It's just been great. So thank you. and i wanted to give you a chance to talk about where to find your book, where if somebody wants to communicate with you or connect with,

Where to Find Dr. Rutnam and Closing Remarks 34:18

you where can they find you? So you can find me on LinkedIn, Dr. Sacha Ratnam. It's quite easy to find. There's a couple of accounts that I've got, but try and find the account that's got the most posts on it. I'm trying to merge them all at the moment. And yeah, so there's my email on that website. You can always email me. And I'd love to connect with people all over the world. We're so lucky now with social media and the internet connections all around the World. It's great. Yeah. Thanks again for taking the time to teach us.

I hope you keep in touch and good luck with the rest of your endeavors. it's just really great what you're doing. Thank you so much. Thanks, Peter. I forgot to mention the books available on Amazon. It's the book on dental health link or critical connection between the two is called Beyond the Smile and the, uh, bookon patient communication is dental patient, communication made simple. And that's on an Amazon as well. That's fantastic. Thank you again so much for sharing that. Thanks Peter Thanks for tuning in to the Doctors Making a Difference podcast.

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