Mold, Dysbiosis & Hashimoto’s Connection

Introduction and Musical Mindset 0:00

Hello. It's Dr. Jen. Welcome back to the Heal Your Thyroid and Reversing Hashimoto's summit. So today we're going to talk about an expert in energy and this is so important for Hashimoto's and thyroid patients. So I'm so excited to have Dr. Evan Hirsch, also known as the Energy M.D. Today to talk about the four step process to increase your energy naturally. So, Dr. Hirsch, welcome. And please tell us something I read in your bio that you like to sing musicals, so please tell us more about that.

I do. You know, it's kind of like what I do for fun. You know, one of the things that we emphasize a lot in our programs is mindset, having fun, laughing like these are the things that are going to get us into our parasympathetic. So actually right before I came on and before I do interviews and before I see clients, I sing and so and I take voice lessons. My daughter takes voice lessons. So it allows us to kind of connect. And I love musicals, you know, so it's it's just a great way for me to get into my parasympathetic.

Yeah, it's. It's so great. I love that you brought that up because it does activating that vagal nerve singing. You know, when I sing to my, my kid at night, he always asks me to sing and never say no. And we just as adults were so worried about it. Right? Like, I love karaoke. I love a good karaoke. You know, my husband does, and it's good like everyone I'm like, it doesn't matter what you sound like. It's good. It's that vibration is activating that vagal nerve. So love it, love it. So thank you for, for sharing that with us.

Yeah. There are so many benefits to it, you know, it increases night nitric oxide,

Recognizing Fatigue and Low Energy 1:51

it, you know, just the fact of humming. I mean I tell people, you know, like if you dance and sing to your favorite song, you're getting movement, you're having fun, you're releasing endorphins. Like, Yeah, it's just a whole ball of meanness. Yeah. So after this interview, everyone put on your favorite song and dance and sing and see what it does to your mood. So I love it. So let's talk about how does someone know if they have energy problems or energy management issue. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah. So it's really subjective. You know, it comes from as as humans we are incredibly adaptable and as we get older, we stop exercising, right? We no longer have P.E. like we did in high school or whatever. We're no longer running home from school or biking with our friends, whatever it was that that we were doing that was keeping us active. And now we have to be more intentional about a lot of things. We're eating the same foods that we did when we were younger, but we're not moving as much. We start to put on weight and we keep adapting and we keep thinking that, okay, my energy is getting worse because I'm getting older.

But the reality is, is that's not the case. And then eventually you get to a point where you're like, oh my gosh, there's a problem here. And so we really have to start listening to our bodies. This is that mindfulness that's so important where we're paying attention to actually what's happening in our lives and paying attention to our bodies and how we're feeling. But I tell people that if your if your energy is not what you want it to be, there's a problem. And if you can't get through the day without caffeine, that's a problem.

And if you need to nap during the day or you're you're not waking up well-rested and you're just tired, that's a problem. Now, if you and the real definition of fatigue is basically this tiredness that's not relieved by rest, because when we were younger, we could time went on. We had finals week and we studied all week or whatever. And then we would come home and we'd sleep for a month, but then we'd be fine, we'd be back to baseline. And so this fatigue is really a tiredness that's not relieved by rest.

Again, 7 to 9 hours of sleep a night or you just your sleep is not good and consequently you're just tired all the time. So that's when people need to start paying attention because if you don't deal with it now, you're going to deal with it later. And I think the frustrating thing I but for everyone listening out there is they felt this way and I heard all the time at my office, I'm just tired. And I went to my regular doctor and they said it was because I was a mom or because I'm getting because I'm getting older and I'm like, that is so insulting.

And, you know, and I have four kids and a husband, which is sometimes like an extra child. And, you know, I don't feel fatigued. And if I do, if I get in a week of fatigue or something feels off, then then I try to figure it out, like, what's going on with my body right now?

Common Causes of Low Energy 4:46

So, Dr. Hirsch, what are some causes of low energy? So the there's some of the basic ones. So depending on who's listening to this, you know, if you have chronic fatigue, the causes are going to be different than just having a little bit of fatigue. Chronic fatigue is basically fatigue that you've had for a long time. Um, can also be called myalgic encephalitis or chronic fatigue syndrome. Now we're seeing long COVID where a lot of people are having that, but there's over 39 different causes that we look at.

And for the average person who just has a little bit of fatigue, oftentimes their lifestyle habit issues where you're not drinking enough water, you're not getting enough movement, you're not getting enough sleep, you're not eating enough good food and you're eating too much. Not good food, right? So if you fix those things, then consequently you can you can feel better now for people who fix those things and they're still tired, then oftentimes they may have a deficiency of or a couple of deficiencies.

So these can be deficiencies in hormones like adrenals or thyroid, which is what some it's all about mitochondria, vitamins, minerals, neurotransmitters. Those are like a lot of the deficiencies that we look at now. If you fix those and somebody's still tired, then the reality is, is that you've got a toxicity. And so these can be heavy metals. And I call these the root root causes for all the chronic fatigue people that I work with heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections and trauma. Those are really the big ones because they end up causing all the other deficiencies and all the other problems that people see.

Yeah, and, and that's the thing. I think that is actually reassuring. There are reasons why you feel fatigued. It's a it's a symptom. It's not it shouldn't be a diagnosis. It shouldn't be a reason to just say, oh, here's an antidepressant, which I hope you're just depressed or anxious. And, you know, so I think that it can be overwhelming to be like, oh, my goodness, all these causes. But at the same time, knowing that something is off that can be fixed and your body can heal and feel better. So I guess that brings us to the question, like, why is it so hard to treat these low energy issues?

So it really has to do with the fact that of these 39 different causes that we look at, everybody that we see with chronic fatigue has a combination of about 20 of those. So that can feel overwhelming and it's a combination of deficiencies and toxicities. But we go through a process, we figure out which cause you have. We fix each one of those causes, and then you look back after a year and you're just amazed at how much better you feel. But it can definitely be overwhelming. But it's that it's that complexity of having this combination of causes.

The other thing, too, is that there's so much confusion out there about testing and which tests to get right. So many people are relying on Lyme tests, for example, and they're looking at Western Blot and and Eliza tests. But even the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta say that those tests are for epidemiologic studies. They're not for diagnosis. So when you're looking at diagnosis, it's really a lot of these infections are clinical diagnoses. You know, if you're looking at a stool test, you're expecting to see parasite is nine and a half times out of ten, you're not going to see a parasite and you might still have a parasite.

Why Fatigue Is Hard to Treat 8:13

So and then if you if you're not thinking about mold heavy metals or chemicals, guess what? You're not going to diagnose it if you're not, you know, so you have to you have to be looking for these things. And so there's a lot of confusion and there's a lot of complexity to you know, a lot of practitioners don't want to deal with mold and Lyme and parasites and because they're complex, you know, I didn't want to deal with them, but I had to because I had chronic fatigue and I wasn't able to get the help that I needed.

So I had to get I had to learn more in order to get over it. And then you start, you know, as you get better and better as a practitioner, you start to see the sicker and sicker patients and it's just not okay. I'm sure you're the same way. It's it was not okay for me to say I'm sorry. There's nothing more I can do for you, right? So you just have to keep learning. So the complexity is another reason why it's so hard for these people to get help and to get better. Yeah, and that's a conversation I have a lot with patients is they're like, why does why did my other doctor not order this or why aren't they ordering this?

And when you go to medical school, you learn so much information. So much information. So then when you get out, you're kind of like, okay, I'm ready to work. And I think it's really overwhelming. And when you start uncovering more and more things that maybe aren't fixed with a pharmaceutical deal and maybe our lifestyle and diet thing, so it is hard. And that's why it's another specialty on top of going to medical school, you know, taking more extensive, integrative and functional medicines. But it's also, you know, there's more and more things that come out because what COVID and the pandemic I mean, that's like that was a whole another thing to learn and especially related to to energy.

I bet you you were like, okay, here's another thing, right? Exactly. Yeah. And we're seeing a lot of people with long COVID and it's you know, it fits very nicely into our paradigm because we are infection experts and we see a lot of different infections anyway. So this is just kind of like one more. But the reason just to go off a little bit on long COVID is the reason why a lot of these people aren't getting better is because their doctors a lot of doctors don't believe that there's a persistent infection.

And so you have to address the infection. But the question why somebody's got long COVID versus somebody else who got COVID and got over it, are these other causes that we're talking about? You know, they always have a combination of heavy metals, chemicals, molds and other infections that were already in the body. And then COVID was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. So, yeah, we're seeing a lot of it. Yeah, it's I have said that COVID kind of brings out what's already there. It brings out any underlying autoimmune disease that you were just like hanging by a thread.

Like you said, it's the straw that broke the camel's back. So it's been very interesting because a lot of the times these infections we live with, whether it's long COVID, whether it's mono, whether it's Lyme. Our bodies do a really good job compensating. So you might not know you have one of these things that maybe led to your Hashimoto's or led to your chronic fatigue. So then it's just like peeling back the layer of onion, every layer you just get deeper and deeper. So definitely not a quick fix, not a pill, you know,

The Four-Step Energy M.D. Method 11:24

but these things can be reverse. So, Dr. Hirsch, you do have a method for this. So I'm really excited for you to talk about the four step energy AMD method that you use. So the first step is to figure out all the causes that somebody has. So fortunately, of these 39 different causes, 75% of these causes can be determined by symptoms alone. So that's incredibly powerful because, you know, at our first visit, people are going to know 75% of their causes and then 25% really need labs. So you can also budget appropriately and you can make sure that your money is going to the best place possible.

So that's figuring out your causes because way too many times people are worried about the treatment. They're like, you know what? Maybe I need a B12 shot. Well, do you have B12 deficiency? Right? So when you know the cause that you have, you can actually target it more appropriately. So big picture is that this process is actually all about getting to those root root causes the heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections and trauma. But we don't get to those until step four because we have to go through a process of setting up the body for success.

And so after step one and step two, we're replacing the deficiencies right now. This is going to help the body get stronger, give it more stamina, deal with stress, better. The Big Three, which are the adrenals, the mitochondria and the thyroid get replaced first because everything works better when they work better. And then vitamins and minerals, lifestyle habits, all of those things need to up need to be optimized. And then in step three, we're opening up the drainage pathways with the exit pathways out of the body.

So then when you start removing the heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, etc., that you actually have a place to put them, right? So we're opening up the liver, kidney, lymph, neural lymph, which is in the brain. Lymph is the garbage system of the body, the gallbladder, the intestines. We want to make sure all those pathways are open. Otherwise you grab heavy metals, you pull them into one of those drainage pathways, and guess what? They just have to go right back into another compartment because they got no place to go.

Step three is kind of like a funnel, you know, where the bottom of the funnel is, how open your drainage pathways are. So when you're dumping toxins into that funnel, if this is blocked, guess what? They go right back, they overflow back into the body. But if it's open, then you're going to make sure. Then you're going to be able to get that stuff out of the body. And then you get into step four and that's removing those root root causes. Yeah, and this is really important for Hashimoto's patients with an autoimmune disease is that, you know, you have these infections that pushed you this way or that cause leaky gut, heavy metals, you know, a lot of different things can damage the thyroid.

So I think that it's really important that we, we look at all these causes and you just can't you just can't go ahead and medicate everyone with thyroid problems. You have to figure out, well, why why is the thyroid bad? And I think that's the frustrating thing is a lot of people are like, I'm hypothyroid or my patients will say like my my mom was hypothyroid and my brother and they don't know why and they never said why. And some of them have never even had an antibody test. So it's this digging deeper that's so important.

Yeah. You know, when I when I think of and when I work on people with Hashimoto's, it's really this it's a two step process, right? You got to we know that it's most likely going to be autoimmunity. 90% of people with low thyroid have Hashimoto's. So the question is what's triggering the immune system to attack the thyroid? And then you have to replace the deficiency that has been created by the lack of a thyroid hormone. But those those causes of the autoimmunity that I see are those same major root root causes, as you mentioned, of chronic fatigue as well, those heavy metals, chemicals, molds and infections.

And the biggest one that I see is actually Bartonella, which is Lyme Coinfection And I can tell you all sorts of stories about Bartonella and what I've seen with Hashimoto's. Yeah, that's, that's a tricky one because that is not always being ordered or checked. So it's a great, great root cause for that. So how do you know if you can help or not help someone with low energy? So it really depends on whether they've addressed all of the causes.

Hashimoto's, Bartonella, and Root Causes 15:47

So that's the big thing that I do when I when I get on meet and greet calls with people to see if we're a good fit to work together is to see what causes have they found, which ones have they worked on? You know, and and essentially ten times out of ten, if somebody still has chronic fatigue, they either haven't addressed all of their causes. They have an assessed for which ones they have or they haven't fixed the ones that they have assessed for. Because, you know, when you leave no stone unturned, you're going to be more successful.

Yeah, I love that. Now, are there any cases you would want to share with us about a Hashimoto's patients? I think it would be great to hear. Yeah, sure. So the first time that I ever treated somebody who was on thyroid medicine had Hashimoto's and also had Bartonella, and I determined they had Bartonella based off the fact that they had pain on the bottom of their feet, muscle cramps, usually in the calves, usually at night they had some sleep issues, a little bit of mood stuff, a little bit of anxiety.

And they also had a burden on Australia, which is kind of like a stretch mark where they, you know, they didn't know where it came from, but they had they had some of those symptoms. And so we went ahead and we started treating Bartonella and they let me know soon thereafter that they all of a sudden their heart started racing and they couldn't sleep like, gosh, why is this? Why what's what's going on here? I said, Well, when was the last time you felt this? And she said, When I had Graves. So Graves is hypothyroid, right?

And so I was like, Oh, she's hypothyroid. I was like, okay, I'm not really sure what's happening, but let's decrease the thyroid urine. And we were able to wean her entirely off of her thyroid medication, but it was because the Bartonella was in her thyroid. The immune system was trying to get rid of the Bartonella by attacking the thyroid. That was the autoimmunity that we were seeing. That was the cause of the Hashimoto's and by removing the bartonella, the thyroid turned back on. She no longer needed her thyroid medication.

So that's just one example. But I see Bartonella playing a role in Hashimoto's a lot. Yeah, that's really interesting. I've seen that with parasites and just fixing the gut in general that we win them. We have to win them off the meds because they're like, Oh, I, you know, I'm feeling like I'm hyper hypo. Like I had a hyper thyroid patient that, you know, she was like, I need to come down. She was on my muzzle because she was breastfeeding and couldn't take natural things. But she's like, I'm feeling really hypo.

So we checked her labs and I told her before that come down off of it. But it's really interesting because our bodies are just trying to tell us that something's off, whether it's, you know, being constipated or having abdominal cramps or fatigue. You know, if you're exhausted all the time, your body that it's trying to say, hey, like you got to fix this or we're going to shut down, we're going to shut this down. One, the biggest reason to fix it is for quality of life. You know, like who knows how many years we got, right?

We want to make the most out of it. We want to be with our partners and our kids and our grandkids, MDs. And I mean, that was the hardest part for me when I had chronic fatigue is that my wife was coming out of her fatigue and I couldn't help by doing the dishes. And we had a young baby and I couldn't play with her. I was just crashed on the couch. I mean, it was it was awful. But, you know, it's it's oftentimes for others, it's to improve our quality of life so we can enjoy life, but so that we can be with the people we love.

Yeah. Can you share your story with our audience? Because I think there's always a story. And like you said, you have one. When we see a conventional doctor come out and, you know, basically join integrative and functional medicine and because sometimes, like, we have these blinders on and the only way to shut them off and see differently is getting sick ourselves and not being able to get help. Yeah. So I came out to the West Coast for my residency and family medicine 24, and I met my wife who was living out here and we fell in love and three months

Dr. Hirsch's Personal Recovery Story 19:48

later she couldn't get out of bed, so she was still able to run a business. She had a couple of employees, but it was really hard and she was mostly better at around three years. And then we got married and I graduated residency and we had a kid and I started my functional medicine practice and a couple of years in, I got chronic fatigue and it lasted for five years and it just about destroyed everything. My business, my relationships, it was awful. I was sleeping underneath my desk every single day when in between patients and during lunch, I had my door locked so that my staff couldn't see me.

I felt so much shame because here I was functional medicine doc. People were coming to see me for their fatigue and I couldn't even help myself. And I was taking a bunch of the supplements that I was recommending to people and I was kind of functional, you know, but I still wasn't where I wanted to be. So I went on this journey and it was after lying under that desk for a thousand days in a row where I was like, Geez, Louise, I got to do something. So I went on this journey of figuring out all the different causes, and I started applying what I was learning to myself, reading books, going to conferences, and I found that I had heavy metals and chemicals and molds and Lyme and parasites and Epstein-Barr, and I had to remedy all of these things and I couldn't find people to help me, you know, back 20 years ago.

And so at that point then I had to cash. It's almost 20 years at that point. Then I, I got myself better and then wrote a book about it and um, at this point I unfortunately helped thousands, but that was, that was the journey that I had to go on. And I was already practicing functional medicine, you know, and I still I still couldn't help myself because I didn't know enough about these environmental toxins. That is so fascinating. And you don't look that old. I'm surprised it 20 years ago. I just turned 47.

Congrats. That's that's exciting. So you're you're rocking it. So, yeah. I mean, don't give up hope. Keep looking for answers. You know, anyone that is struggling with fatigue out there, I think that it can get super frustrating. And sometimes you might have to go see a different practitioner, you know, maybe it's not a good fit or maybe they don't know, you know, they don't have that. Just start that. You need that. Oh, you said this one work because sometimes in my office someone will say like one word and I'll be like, Wait, what?

And then we'll be like, Oh, my goodness. And something will go off. So I think that that's a just an important thing like don't give up hope. And your story is amazing. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, like if you take a step towards better health every single day, you're going to you're going to find the right practitioner. You're going to figure out all of your causes. You're absolutely going to going to get there. And I and I would encourage people absolutely. We focus on figuring out the causes that you have.

You know, and and if you're not getting success or your practitioner doesn't have a plan in six months or so,

Finding Dr. Hirsch and Closing Remarks 22:48

you should move on to somebody else, you know, and you want to make sure that you interview them. You know, there's nothing wrong with asking them what's their experience with heavy metals and chemicals and molds and infections and, you know, how many people have they helped and what is their process for doing this? Like, nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's so important. So, Dr. Hirsch, can you tell us where everyone can find you? Tell us a little bit about your practice, where you hang out on social media, all of that.

So I'm at energymdmethod.com and if you scroll down at the bottom of the I don't even think you have to scroll, but at the bottom right corner of that website, you can text me directly. So if you want to do that, go for it. Click on that and send me a message with any question that you have. And if you want to see if we're a good fit to work together, I've got free 20 minute calls with me right now. So we can we can see if we're a good fit. I'm everywhere on on social media, so you can follow me on Instagram.

We do have a free Facebook group. If you want to jump in there. And I'm providing a lot of education all the time. That's awesome. Great to hear. Thank you so much for your expertize. And joining us today. Thanks for having me on.