Mold, Mycotoxins & the Biotoxin Illness Explosion

It's the mycotoxins that make us sick and create that toxic burden in the body. And they cause all kinds of problems, oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction.

They crash your immune system and they mess up your vital organs, your liver, kidneys, heart, brain, all of it. Symptoms are only part of the story. I'm Dr.

Drew Kidder. I am Dr Emily Hernandez. And on the healing terrain, we explore deeper systems influencing clinical outcomes from toxic burden and microbial imbalance to the foundational factors that drive resilience and long-term health.

I am super, super excited to have a very special guest on today's episode of the Healing Terrain podcast, and that is none other than Laura Frontero. Laura, thank you so much for joining us today.

It's always a pleasure to hang out with you, Drew. Thank you. It may be hard to believe, but there may people, surprisingly, that don't know you right?

I find that hard believe. But for those that do not know, you tell us a little bit about your background. I want to paint a picture of who you are, where you came from, and what brilliance I know that you have.

So share that with the audience. Where I came from? Well, I come from a little town called Gold Run near Truckee in California. That's where I started, but no, truly where it came professionally.

So I start it out in the Western medicine world and I was a nurse practitioner. Well I still am. I don't practice anymore. Actually I officially retired, like actually did the retirement thing.

at age 50. So I retired. Yep, a full retirement party and everything. Wasn't just quitting, but full-retirement. Anyway, I worked in Western medicine as a nurse practitioner for a couple of decades.

And at some point in my career, I don't remember the exact year. I think it was around 2015 I learned about the gut microbiome. Now remember that it wasn't even, and I'm using air quotes here for people who are listening and not watching, but it really, the microbiome has been there all along, but that's when modern science kind of acknowledged it as a real thing.

And that is when the explosion of research around it, books, everything was published. About 15 years later is where I stumbled on the thing called the Microbiome.

Once I started learning about that, I couldn't look back. You know how, Drew, once you see something, you can't unsee it? Once you learn something you cannot unlearn it.

So here is a whole other layer of of human health that I just needed to dive into. So really, that's where it all started. Long story short, I built a functional medicine, virtual functional alongside, you know, while I was working at Kaiser and finally stepped away from that three years ago fully.

And that's all I do now is health coaching in my own business. We focus on gut microbiome and detoxing people. Well, I would say we also focus in mitochondria.

Those are kind of the three big places that we teach and help people with. I love it. You know, I, love right on your website. I I loved the fact that you have optimized your health and energy.

Reclaim mental clarity, easy digestion and a brighter mood so your body can keep up with your ambition. Do you know a client told me that so that that tagline came from a Client she had gone through my programs and her feedback to me was my body.

Can keep Up with my ambition? I love that. That literally came From someone. Yeah, hopefully you're paying her royalties. No, I love her a lot though.

But no, those symptoms you just described is like the cluster of symptoms that so many people are dealing with. It's the low energy, the brain fogginess, that digestive distress, it's kind of this cluster things that sets in.

it seems like it setting in earlier and earlier with people. I mean, It kind was a midlife thing, but I'm meeting people in their 20s and 30s that are having these same sets of systems actually, which is awful.

It is awful. It's unfortunate. So let's talk about it. I mean, we have a big topic to kind of unpack, which is mold, mycotoxins, and the biotoxin illness explosion.

And so I want to start out by just asking you a question, right? Simple question. Are we truly seeing this explosion in exposure and illness Or are we simply getting better at recognizing something that's been there all along?

Or I'll say, or is it both? Well, so I was going to say my answer in a word would be both. So here's how I would explain this. Mold is not new to cohabitating alongside humans, right?

There's always been mold and there's been humans. And so we've lived alongside mold always. What has changed is the way we build our homes and we built our businesses.

So the building environment has change. And by that I mean airtight systems and I would say I might get in trouble here, but I don't think they do plumbing the way they used to.

We had a big fight about it when we remodeled my house recently. My husband is a copper, like do copper sweating and use copper pipes on our home. And they wanted to use, you know, the, plastic click together and we had huge fight with our plumber and were like, no, we're not having that.

So I just think that building materials are not as, as quality as they use to be. everything is made now with a substance that's perfect environment to grow mold.

And I'm talking about drywall, right? So, synthetic building materials as well. Then we have this huge ventilation problem, everything's airtight. We want cool air to stay in and the hot air stay out in the summer and reverse in winter.

Construction has gotten really good at doing that. What's happened is we've created the perfect environment for mold to grow. Then I would say the other thing that's happening is people are inside more often than they've ever been.

I was just thinking about this the I really resisted it for so long, Drew, and I've succumbed, but I was still the girl who would make a shopping list and then go out and run my errands and hit all the different stores that I needed to go to.

And life has become so busy that, I finally started ordering things on Amazon. I'm sad to say that my household is one of those households that has an Amazon box arriving every other day because I don't even get out of the house as much.

as I should. We're really disconnected from being outside in nature and we spend all of our time inside where we have this perfect environment for mold to grow.

So I would say that mold is not new, but what's new is that we're learning to, you know, or we are starting to live in environments where it's perfect conditions for mold to grow.

And I also think we're maybe getting a little wiser and better at identifying mold as well. I think there was, you know, the people who pioneered the functional medicine movement, it's rather new in its infancy, at least in this country, in the United States.

It's not so new Germany or Switzerland, but here it is pretty new. So, you touched on some of the symptoms, but I want us to draw back for a second, kind of 30,000 foot view and say, what does the patient look like in your mind and with your programs who has the systems?

It may be someone sitting there today watching this that has had the system of fatigue and brain fog and digestive issues and poor sleep cycles, some immune dysfunction, But no one has ever asked whether their environment, whether they're exposures could be causing that.

So what does that look like for you in your approach and how you help patients with that? So when I worked in Western medicine all that time, I never asked really about the environment.

We heard about solutions, you know, band-aid solutions to help fix it. We'd run a bunch of diagnostics and tests, and then we'd say, well, everything looks really good.

I really can't tell what's going on, but would you like a referral to psychiatry? No joke. Yes. Even on my charts, because I was practicing back in the day before computers ruled the world, so we would handwrite everything.

Yeah, paper chart. And I can't tell you how many times I wrote PSS referral, which meant the psychiatry department that was like our abbreviation for it.

So what that looks like for what I'm seeing, I think what natural medicine practitioners who are offering different solutions to help people feel better.

These people show up as the mystery person, right? They've seen 10 practitioners, they've tried working on separate systems. So I'll give you an example.

So let's say somebody with mold exposure has sinus issues. So they've seen an ENT, right? And an EMT has maybe gone with a scope and looked into their sinuses and, you know, maybe they have tried them on some inhaled nasal steroids and some nasal washing, but it really didn't solve the problem, and we see this in every system.

Depending on what system the mold is affecting, we have seen multiple specialists along the way. And that's because our Western model divides the body into systems, right?

But in the natural medicine space, we see the bodies as a whole. And so I think from my perspective, when I'm looking at somebody who's telling me I have all these symptoms and I've seen all the specialists, I am really thinking about the person as a whole and all the systems in the body, and then helping them ask the right questions to themselves.

When did this start? Where were you? Or what happened to you when all of this started? And once they start thinking about that, they can start to realize, oh, I remember I was feeling good, and then I wasn't feeling.

And it's when we moved to that new house, or it was when I got that other job, you know, insert thing. So that's really how I think the Western space is looking at people and how the functional, more integrative, natural medicine space, is look at this same group of people.

I want to unpack that a little bit more, but before we do, mold and mycotoxins, right? We throw those terms out interchangeably, we very often say, well, mold in mycotoxin.

But clinically, that distinction is important, so what are my cotoxines and what occurs in essence when they enter into the body? So mold in itself, and I even use the word interchangeably, because a lot of times I think what we're doing is we are meeting people where they're at.

And if I say the words mycotoxin, my audience doesn't necessarily understand what that means, but if i say that word mold, they understand it. Now I know that there's a difference, But they don't quite understand the difference.

They just think mold and it makes me sick. So, the truth of it is that mold actually doesn't make you sick. It's the mycotoxins that the mold creates.

So mycotoxin are compounds that molds produce and it depends on the environment that a mold is living in as well. Finding mold in your environment doesn' automatically mean that that mould is producing large amounts of my cotoxines.

you know, load in your house is going to vary based on the species and the environmental conditions. Like, do you have poor airflow or not? Right? Do you live in a new house or an older house that might have some cracks and creaks and leaks where air can get in?

That's not exactly a bad thing. So I think that's a really important distinction for people. And then mold itself, you know, when we think of mold, itself there's the spores of the mold and the fragments of them mold.

And sure, that can be irritating and people can have a kind of, they could be allergens and can allergic to it and it can cause respiratory irritation if you inhale all kinds of stuff.

But it's them mycotoxins. that make us sick and create that toxic burden in the body. And they cause all kinds of problems, oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction, and they crash your immune system, they mess up your vital organs, your liver, kidneys, heart, brain, all of it.

So I think that's important for people to understand that a mycotoxin in itself is harmful, but the mold often isn't that harmful. And I love just to touch, you know, I, love your point of how with construction, right?

We think, oh, it's amazing. We're building these airtight homes, but I literally just this morning had a conversation with someone on how we didn't see mold in a lot of older homes that were built for proper ventilation, Right?

You could have homes. I grew up in, a home that was built in 1820. It was part of the Underground Railroad in Western New York, and yet it was built in a way that allowed for the house to, in essence, breathe.

So they were sharing with me that the little cupolas that are put in the top of homes actually allowed proper airflow. Yeah, we're being exposed. in our environment, in offices and homes.

We're also exposed in foods, right? A lot of foods can be very high. Why don't you share with the audience some of what you kind of pick up on oftentimes with foods that may be triggers for mycotoxins?

Yeah, for sure. I have to tell you, as you were talking about where you grew up, I grew in a log cabin. Real, like think of Lincoln Logs and think about building a Log cabin and that's what I grow up in.

So there was lots of ventilation. Let's put it that way. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, it was in, you know, outside of Truckee, California. Of course, we got lots of snow and we heated with a wood stove and I did have a pet deer and i did go out exploring on acreages and acreage and an acre of forest.

I mean, that was my childhood. My parents didn't know where we were. We just left for the day and went exploring. But in terms of foods, You know, some of the biggest offenders are grains and coffee, anything that's going to be sitting for a long time, waiting to being processed or being process.

And even some, you know produce and fruits can also, we think about apples and patchelin, right? So patchulin is a mycotoxin that is, it can be found in apples, and then we I always think about, well, what are we always giving our toddlers and kids apple juice?

Maybe it's full of patulant. Maybe that the behavior of the child is not necessarily due to behavior. Or maybe it is a mycotoxin from the food that they are eating.

So yeah, those are the main foods. Interestingly, recently I was talking to someone, Drew. So what I learned from an expert who is a mold inspector, do you know Brian Carr?

You know, Brian very well. So Brian Car explained to me with all of his inspecting that he does, that it's interesting when you run a mild mycotoxin test on someone and you also run test in their home, here's the crazy thing.

He told me a crazy statistic, like 98%. It was right in there. I got to go back and remember what he said. But don't quote me exactly on that, but it was very high.

Most of the time, the mycotoxins that we think are from food are actually living in someone's home on the surfaces in their home. So this is really important for our listeners to understand that a mycotoxin that tends to be, I'll use okra toxin for an example.

Okra Toxin, everybody always thinks it's coming from the grains or the coffee or something like that. but it actually can just live on a water damaged surface in your home and that okra toxin may not be coming from food at all.

And so what he said was even the ones that tend to people think only come from foods are actually have no problem living on your water damage surfaces in you home.

Crazy amount of the time. In the 90% of, I think it was 98, he says he sees it on the home inspection. Is that wild? It is. And I love, I mean, you bring him up and I want to defer too much, but I loved what he's now doing with his system and showing the correlation between a mold and mycotoxin test that are done on us and our home and show that here is where your exposure is coming from or where it's not coming.

We bring him into my community. He teaches. I consider him faculty inside my detox program. And he teaches every time, every cohort. In fact, I just contacted him a couple of days ago and said, ''I've got another class coming up.

Can you teach?'' He said absolutely. So he's remarkable. and I love it that he runs the testing from the human and the test in the house and has created…

Correlates it. Correlated it so you can see if it's right there in your house. That is such good diagnostic data. It is great. So let's talk about two different patients.

Two different patience, either living in the same environment, or they are, you know, it could be family members, spouse, whatever. One has an issue with mycotoxins, the other doesn't.

Knowing how you think upstream, what are you automatically queuing in on of the resilience of one person versus the susceptibility of another? Where does your mind go with that?

Well, I think what everybody needs to understand is that exposure is important, but the resilience of the person is going to determine what happens after the exposure.

The resilience and the pre-existing toxic load, and a few other components. Um, you can have a family member, two family members living in the exact same house, one person is sick, the other person, is thriving in life.

And when we think about a resilience bucket, there's a lot of variables that are influencing that resilience packet. So, just the basics, One person might be sleeping well, The other might not.

One might really be good at eating healthy, and the others might NOT. One person may be really active and athletic and the other person maybe completely sedentary.

So even those changes. And then if we think about past traumas that people have lived through and stress. If we're just thinking about filling that resilient bucket, we are throwing all of these things into the bucket.

The traumass and stresses that you've had through a lifetime. Then just from a biology standpoint, if you think of different genetics, people in the same family can have different epigenetics.

And some people can be really good detoxifiers and some are not good. Some people have really strong gut genetics where others do not. So that's one of the reasons that your brother or sister could fare very well, but you do And then inside of that bucket are things like your nutrient and mineral status, your mitochondria reserve, whether or not you have antioxidant capacity, or whether you're making bile efficiently, and whether your liver is functioning efficiently.

Let's just talk about pooping for a second. person one may be constipated, person two may poop like a racehorse, right? So this is going to influence how your body responds to mold.

Somebody may have really strong lymphatic system because they're really active, somebody else may stagnant, and somebody may a strong immune system where somebody just has a weak immune because of all the other things that are occurring in their body simultaneously.

So these are all pieces that influence why one person will do better and another won't. And we see it all the time in my community even. When we're running programs, gut programs and detox programs.

We've got person A and person B, And person A and person B are doing the exact same protocols. They're doing same things, they're getting the same training, their learning the the thing.

And one person responds fast and the other person respond slow. It's because they have a different resilience bucket. So, I'm going to ask you a super loaded question, but knowing how much you weave Cellcore into your programs, you identify, because you also do a lot of testing, right?

You identify that mold and mycotoxins are an issue. All you have to do is give them a binder, to bind on to that myocardium and get it out of the body, that's all you do.

What? That's not what you do? It could potentially backfire? Why is that? Well, so in a word, you can't, there's no point in binding what cannot be removed.

So are you binding something for the sole purpose of binding it and recirculating it? Or are binding for something the purpose for excreting it. And I think this is a piece that I know when I was a new natural medicine practitioner, when i had started stepping away from the western world and i was trying my hand at helping people restore gut health and detoxify, I thought that all i needed to do was give people a binder and that would solve the problem but the problems is.

If people don't have open pathways to get that toxin out once it's bound up. Well, then it just recirculates back into the body, and now you've displaced it.

So maybe it wasn't quite as bad where it was sitting before, now, you re-circulated it to a more sensitive area in the bottom. And that can be a massive problem.

So this is, you said, loaded question around cellcore. I mean, this what cell core does best, right? I would say cell cores contribution to natural medicine and humanity is bringing forward the concept of drainage and really holding steadfast that you must have open drainage pathways before you start killing.

Parasites, bacteria, fungus, mold, whatever it is, mycotoxins, wherever you're trying to kill or bind before you start binding heavy metals, before your start finding glyphosate, or you starting binding mycotoxin, you better have an out passage to get it out, otherwise you are recirculating and causing more damage.

And of course, we know when it recirculates, it's called a Herxheimer reaction, right? And I had dropped a lot of people in the beginning when I was very first trying this out.

I caused a lotta Herkheimer reactions, and I'm very sorry for that. They never called me back, they left my programs, I made them feel worse, but I learned, that doesn't happen anymore.

So we actually, before I will ever even attempt to kill a pathogen or do any type of heavy detoxing, it is a bare minimum that people need to be on drainage support for a month before they even start.

And people want stuff quick, right? I want it fast. I want to feel better fast. Well, trust me, the drainage makes you feel amazing. It's usually people's favorite phase in anything we do because they were feeling like crap, low energy, brain foggy, and now all of a sudden we're getting them pooping, we are getting their lymphatic system flowing, were getting there liver working better.

And everything starts feeling better before we start, right? That's where they love. That is like the honeymoon phase before you start actually doing the deep work.

So you touched on something earlier too. So obviously when you're addressing, let's just look specifically at mold and mycotoxins, right? You addressed a lot of the other toxin and toxic burden with heavy metals and environmental toxins.

But the binder is critically important. You obviously utilize, you know, facilitate drainage pathways, making sure they're pooping, make sure you reference lymphatics, right, to keep that flowing, kidney and liver function.

But you also touched on just briefly mitochondria, so why is mitochondrion so critically important? Energy is kind of important. So it's my favorite thing.

Why are they important? So any time, and I want to explain this in a way that just makes sense to people. So anytime that you're asking your body to do something above and beyond the status quo.

The status quote would be going about your usual day, the normal routine that do. You've adapted to be able to have energy to that. the moment that your ask your to start repairing damaged tissues to to start escorting mycotoxins out of the body or any other toxins that I mentioned just a moment ago, that is going to cause you to have a higher energy demand.

There is a cost for repair, there is cost to kill microbes, and there's a costs to move them out the of body. And you got to pay with mitochondria energy.

Yeah, that's the currency, right? It's a currency. So this is why it is so important that you work with a practitioner who not only opens your drainage pathways, but supports your mitochondria energy production right along with your protocols.

If that is missing, you will probably have a long hard road of recovery and you won't have the cellular energy you need to be able to fully repair and recover.

And I don't think anybody goes into any functional medicine protocol wanting kind of a partial result. Everybody wants long-term permanent improvement and solutions.

So you have to have mitochondria energy on board. And I think that's the easiest way to explain it without getting into technical science. Oh, I agree.

I, think bottom line is the function of that organ gland cell is only as good as its level of energy. Yeah. I mean, I love the way you put that with, you know, to heal requires energy.

to clear toxins requires energy. Anytime you're putting an additional demand, which detoxification is a demand on the body. And so the power of supporting the mitochondria within the liver, within kidneys, with the digestive system, supporting that mitochondrial currency is critically important.

You know, Drew, I didn't have a single lecture on supporting mitochondria energy in my nurse practitioner training. I'm pretty sure the only time we ever talked about it was in the prerequisites courses where you're learning pathophysiology and anatomy in human body.

That's when we talked mitochondrial but never supporting my mitochondrion as a part of restoring health. Yeah. Or thinking, you know, with clinically diagnosed mitochondrial dysfunction, right?

There are some conditions that are clinically-diagnosed from an allopathic perspective as this is a mitochondria dysfunction disorder. I was lecturing at a conference several years back and it was heavily medical doctors.

And I said right at the beginning of them, of the lecture, by a show of hands, how many of you are MDs? I knew the audience. I know probably 85%. And they raised their hands and I said, I'm taking away your MD credentials and replacing them.

And you saw this stern look like, no, you're not. You're still MD's, but you should all be mitochondrial doctors. They all loved it. Oh, this is fantastic.

I think it's a foundational piece that we have to, again, support the mitochondria before we move into any of the other physiological pathways. We could talk about this.

Unfortunately, we are running short on time, but I want to know, like just in your years of experience now, how has working with some of these mold and mycotoxin patients really changed your view on chronic illness itself, right?

In other words, is mold in our mycotoxins Sometimes the disease or is it the stressor that exposes weaknesses in the patient's terrain? Right? Is it? I think.

At least what I've experienced in practice is that mold can be the final insult that tips a totally overburdened system and crashes people. And this is why, and I teach this wholeheartedly in my programs, This is why simply removing the mold doesn't always, or simply, removing them mycotoxin, so removing mold from the environment or removing mycotoxins from body, does not always immediately restore health.

Because there was already an overburdened system, there were already other underlying problems. There were nutrient deficiencies, mitochondria energy decline, maybe co-infections along with You know this micro toxin problem maybe that parasites maybe they have bacterial infections or fungus so.

This is kinda what i see is that it's a i know everybody wants a quick like fix this really fast you have to unburden the body with the micro toxins. but then know that there's a road of recovery ahead of you to solve all the other problems that were already there that we're part of that kind of resilience bucket.

And once that mycotoxin came in, it pushed you over the edge. So I think really that's what I've seen is that getting mycotoxins out of the body is one thing.

I mean, I can show it over and over again on a test that they're gone. Like we can do a protocol and the test can that that micro toxin is gone, But people say, I still don't feel like I want to feel that's because we still have to work with all the other systems in the body that were affected even prior to the mycotoxin exposure.

So what I'm hearing you saying is sequence matters. Yeah. Right. There has to be a sequence in how you're addressing. I mean, human physiology follows sequences, follows patterns.

So even your reversal of that follows a very strategic sequence. It does. And I would say, yes, there's a sequence for the body. Also, you've got to get it out of your home.

I can't tell you how often people don't want to test their homes. It's very emotional thing. This is your safe place, your haven, and your beloved home, this is where you want a return to when you have been away for too long.

You want go back to that safe that's your And it almost is like to find a betrayal like mold in your home that's creating mycotoxins that are making you sick.

People don't want to fine it and then they don' t want the expense of correcting it. But I can tell you over and over again, I see this, people will go through a mold protocol for their body.

They'll go though a mycotoxin removal protocol. and then they'll retest and see it's still there. Okay, I'll go check my house. Boom, it was there and they could have saved themselves so much time and money and effort if they just would have went seeking it simultaneously.

As soon as you get that toxin test that shows you've got mycotoxins, test your home. It is the absolute next logical step, but it is so hard to get people to do it.

Yeah, it is. It's like you said, It is very emotional. The cost of remediation is not cheap, but the cost illness is also not. Well it's way more expensive.

I always ask, what is this costing you? What is it costing in your relationships, in hobbies, in your job, your career, in all aspects of your life, and there is a massive cost to not solving this.

I want you to think, because we have practitioners that are tuning into this. We have patients that aren't tuning in to this for the person who is listening right now, who has been sick for years or the practitioner that is dealing with those sick patients.

who many of them have seen multiple practitioners, right? They've gone through. I know, I think your statistic is your average patient has seen almost 10 other practitioners.

Yeah, easy. Like five to 10 practitioners easy, yeah. So they've seen all those other practitioners, they're starting to wonder maybe mold and mycotoxin, you know, biotoxic illness could be part of their story.

What do you want to tell them now? Well, I want to tell you that don't give up. I don t want you to get frustrated because you haven't found it yet. And this is something I do in my community all the time.

You know, we get on Zoom and we have our chat and I will always I never want I haven't figured it out yet. And so there is help for you out there. There is a practitioner who can understand how to help you.

I always explain to Drew that the human body, if we think about one thing we do in our family is we put together, we'll get a thousand piece puzzle and we will all work on it together over four or five days when we're all together for the holidays or whatever.

And I want you to think about putting that puzzle together. A lot of people are picking up one puzzle piece and trying to find where it goes, and then put it down and walk away in frustration.

And usually, it's not one thing that's going to solve this for you. There's usually several pieces that fit together, And once you think, about it, when you're making that Puzzle and you start getting a part of it going and You start seeing, oh, there it is coming together!

And that is when health starts to transform. So you just haven't found your right puzzle pieces yet, is what I would say. And I'm willing to bet a lot of people listening right now probably haven' supported mitochondria, probably have an open drainage before they started to bind and started try to…

I mean, yeah, getting in a sauna is great to move toxins out of your body, mycotoxins, but don't do it if your drainage pathways aren't open. If they have nowhere to go.

Yeah. sick. So yeah, that's what I would say is please don't give up. Have hope. I have seen people in the depths of despair with their health. Completely reverse completely eliminate their symptoms and go on to live strong healthy lives.

It is absolutely possible I know you've seen the same thing Absolutely. Yeah, I love I just have to say I loved that puzzle, you know one I Love this story my family.

We always do a puzzle at Christmas time as well Get out the foam board put all the pieces on there so we can transfer it and And then somebody stays up till two in the morning and you wake up, you're like, who did that?

Somebody did this whole section without me. That's normally this guy. I get obsessed and I'm like I just got to finish this. My husband and then we wake and we're all mad at him.

Yeah, right. And I usually leave the one piece for the other person to feel good that they finished the puzzle. Okay, that's nice of you. I think there's a beautiful analogy, though, in that puzzle, because you talk about finding all the pieces, is what do we also do, most of us, when we build a puzzle?

We do the outer edges first. We build the framework, we built the foundation. So that what you do so beautifully in your program is It's the box, right?

And then it's moving the pieces within that framework. So that is amazing. Find your corner pieces first. What's that? Find Your Corner Pieces First, everybody.

Right, exactly. Yeah, because you know there's only four of them. That's right. Easiest ones to find. Yeah. Well, Laura, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Healing Terrain podcast today.

Thank you, so, much, for the incredible work that you do. You just, I mean, your heart of serving people is amazing. And so thank, you keep up the, incredible, work and thank.

you for supporting all of us with the healing terrain podcast. Thank you. Thanks for listening to The Healing Terrain. If this episode challenged the way you think about health and healing, please follow, share and leave a review.

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