Neuroplasticity & Electrical Stimulation For MS Recovery

Introduction and Guest Background 0:00

Welcome to another episode of the, M.S. and Autoimmune Summit. I'm Doctor Wahls, your host, and our next guest is, Garrett Saltpeter. Now, he's known as the health engineer. Garrett Saltpeter has used his expertise in engineering and neuroscience to innovate in the world, to rehabilitation and fitness. He's the creator of the new fit and the patented newbie device. Garrett and his team helped patients recover from injuries, manage chronic pain, and optimize their performance. His work supports professional sports teams, professional athletes, universities, and medical practices worldwide.

He's also the bestselling author of The New Fit Method and the host of the Undercurrent podcast. And I must say, I also use this device, every day. Because I found it to be so helpful. Welcome. All right. So I'm so glad to have you again. Garrett, and I want to tell the audience that. Yes, I'm actually use the devices I wouldn't be talking about. I, as you may know, I really love electricity. It does really wonderful things. And I'll tell you one little funny, funny story. My mother, when she was 16, for whatever reason, we don't quite know what inspired her.

She stuck a pickle into an electric socket to see how well it would conduct. And, she says it conducts quite well because it kicked her, off her stool, into the next room. So, anyway, so we've had a long love of electricity in the walls. Family line. So, Garrett, welcome. Let's talk. About, neuroplasticity, what it is and why it matters so much. Yes. Well, I, I love that story, too. I had not heard that before. So, neuroplasticity is, you know, it's really exciting. It's something that until a few decades ago, we didn't really know even existed.

Right. People thought that if there was brain or neurological damage, that, you know, it couldn't really heal. There was no real opportunity to gain back function. We've learned that, you know, we do have an opportunity to adapt even later in life. Of course, it's most pronounced as children, but even adults can can regrow certainly new connections between neurons, even neurons in some areas of the brain, like the hippocampus and the, the possibility here is such that, you know, for patients with Ms.

or autoimmune conditions, you know, there is a bonafide, proven way to actually regain function that's been lost. There is an opportunity to heal and, you know, heal nervous system tissue, nerves and the connections between them. And to, to do that, there's also there's also it's interesting a dark side of neuroplasticity. So before we before we get into the, you know, some of the, the promise and potential benefits,

Understanding Neuroplasticity 3:00

I think it's actually important to understand neuroplasticity in general is just the ability to adapt to our environment. And it's the reason why children who grow up here in the United States, you know, they have an ear for the sounds and the syllables and the the phonetics associated with English or Spanish. Whereas a child growing up in, in China is going to understand the phonetics of, of, you know, Mandarin Chinese language, for example. And it's going to be easier for them to speak and understand those sounds of that language which they grew up because they're just adapting to the input of their environment.

And likewise, we adapt to what it is that we're doing. And so if we're, you know, sedentary, hunched over at a desk all day long, things like that, we adapt to being less energetically efficient. We adapt to, you know, sometimes being in that sort of hunchback type of, of position. And so, you know, neuroplasticity more broadly really is, that, that ability to adapt and, you know, it can lead us in a negative direction. And, you know, there's this notion of use it or lose it. And so when you know, if someone has lost function because of a mouse or some sort of neurodegenerative condition, you know, it's it's even more dramatic and it's going to take some effort just to maintain function because use it or lose it is going to kick in and cause people to to further lose function further degenerative don't do anything.

So there's some level of effort. And then there's this opportunity with enough of the right type of effort to actually regain function, to cause the body to rebuild connections between neurons, or to re myelinated nerve. You know, we have some interesting studies in that realm that I can share with you later on. But the idea is that if we're going to harness the body's capability for neuroplasticity, there's two main things that we need broadly speaking, we need the right type of input. So that's, you know, doing the exercise, doing the physical therapy, using, you know, technology like the direct current of the newbie to create this amount of input that actually tells the body, sends the message to the brain and the body that this input is significant, salient or relevant, important.

And it's worth investing the energy and resources to build up these nervous system pathways, to rebuild these tissues, to make these muscles stronger, make the connective connective tissue stronger, to support those movements, all that you need enough of that input frequently enough. And then you also need the raw materials to support that. The body has to have enough energy just to maintain survival, and then have a surplus left over for long term growth and repair, to be able to rebuild nervous system pathways, to be able to to build up new muscles so that we can actually have the the raw material to move us through space to, to, to walk or to mow the lawn or to play the piano or whatever it is people want to be able to do.

You know what I want to, for the listeners, I want to build on that, are neuroplasticity means that the pathways in my brain that are being used will continue to be there, in the pathways that are not being used. My brain is going to decide, because the brain is such expansive real estate for my body. It's the most expensive real estate that I have. If I'm not using those pathways, my brain's going to say, you know what? We're going to. Basically, remove the support for those pathways, and I'm going to pay attention to other pathways that are being used.

And that's why, you know, if you can sort of think back to, you know, my college days, I took, German, and I was actually, you know, fairly fluent and, could even had dreams in German. But and, you know, I haven't done any more German language since my college days, so that's about 40 years ago. And I can remember just a few words of German, because that real estate wasn't being used. So my brain, you know, to took the support away. And that's what, Gary is telling us, is that we fully aren't using that brain and, pathways down my brain.

My spinal cord hurts my muscles. My brain's going to say, you know what? You don't need it. And they will, reallocate those resources. Now, I'm going to ask you another sort of interesting question. What? You know, when I first started doing electrical stimulation, of muscles, many, many, many, many years ago, that was back in 2008. And I was profoundly disabled. You know, I could not sit up independently. I could take just a couple steps. But one of the things that the very first thing that I noticed before I noticed any change in strength was the change in mental clarity and my mood.

I could tell that after my first session. Garrett, what was going on? Well, when you put the pickle in the the sock. So, that's that's I'm so glad you experienced that. And we hear that same sort of thing all the time. And what we're tapping into is this really well known connection between bodily exercise moving the body and improvements in brain function. So there's there's well studied, well known effects of how moving the body exercise in the body can help with, with, you know, cognition, helping maintain cognition as people get older.

Also helping with, mood and affect and psychology. There's a lot of different things it has to do with as we move the body. You know, the one of the biggest things that a brain does, you know, there's neuroscientists who have made the case that the reason we have a brain is to control movement. And one of the biggest things that the brain does is look at, monitor constantly where the body is in space, what it's doing. So when we move, when we move our body, especially if we move multiple limbs through different ranges of motion in different planes, that creates a lot of input, sensory input up to the brain, which increases activity generally in the brain, the release of various neurotransmitters and and signals going off among different neurons and the connections between them.

And that causes, you know, a lot of this, the foundational things that we talk about in neuroplasticity, it causes the release of things like PDF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which is like Miracle-Gro, like fertilizer for your brain. When you move your body, you create enough input in the right parts of the brain where you've caused the release of more of this, assuming your underlying health is adequate and things like that. And that is is very important for neuroplasticity, for maintaining cognition, especially as we get older.

All those things, there's also benefits. But how moving the body, you know, causes release of other things like the, the, you know, various neurotransmitters. Certainly dopamine, you know, serotonin balancing those, getting those, balance the proper levels, you know, exercise in some studies has been shown to have as good of an effect on, various

Electrical Stimulation and Brain Benefits 10:00

anxiety and psychological depression, different, different diagnoses like that, you know, has been shown to have effects that in some cases are as significant as things like Xanax or, you know, other, other psychoactive drugs. So there's there's really profound effects there. And what we're doing with electrical stimulation, then to tie it back to the initial point of the conversation here, what we're doing is even even if you're not moving. So typically we have the, the electrodes on. Well, an individual is doing some movement.

But even if you're not, even if you just are sitting or standing there with the pads on, you're actually stimulating the same pathways, creating the same input, the same sensory signals into your nervous system, up your spinal cord, into your brain as if you are moving. And so you're getting a lot of those same benefits of exercise, even if you're, you know, doesn't look to the naked eye like you're moving, you're still getting a lot of those same benefits of exercise. And the really cool thing happens when you can use it strategically in a way that you can amplify those benefits. You can get more input.

You can, you know, especially if you're combining with movement, you can get more input. So in the time that you're doing dozens of repetitions of a movement, it can be the equivalent effect, as if you had done hundreds of those. And that's part of how we can accelerate this process of of helping people tap into those benefits of neuroplasticity to regain function. You know, again, for the listeners, there was research lab was one of the very first labs to investigate using electrical stimulation combined with exercises and of course, the whole program of better nutrition, etc., to rehabilitate people who are profoundly disabled.

And we are quite, successful. And so there is research supporting the use of electrical stimulation in people who have, more severe disabilities to speed their recovery. Now, let's, let's talk a little more specifically about newbie. What makes the newbie device different? And unique. So the, you know, people see electrodes on the skin and muscles twitching or that sort of thing, and they think, oh, is that just another Tens unit or things like that? And there is an important difference, and that is that the newbie which stands by the way, for neuro bio electric stimulator and newbie, uses direct current instead of alternating current.

And I know you you know, you mentioned Doctor ALS back in early 2000. You had experience with, you know, more earlier forms of electrical stimulation. So, you know, of course, we'll be curious to hear your experience and how they compare. Generally speaking, though, what we've seen in our experience and in the research, there's a few important differences between the more traditional alternating current devices and the direct current of the newbie. And but before I get into those, the history is actually very interesting because the the Soviet sports scientists back in the 60s and 70s, they were experimenting with all sorts of electrical modalities, and they were doing a lot of work with their athletes as part of their efforts to prove the superiority of, of the Soviet Union and their communist system.

You know, they were they took international sports very seriously because it was a big part of their identity and their push to prove their superiority. And so they actually experimented with and they discovered a lot of these benefits of direct current. But they also found this big limitation, which was when they turn it up to a high enough level to make a difference, have therapeutic effects. It would literally burn the skin of their athletes because with direct current, you get these charges building up, it increases resistance and causes heat dissipation, etc.

and so you get literally burning the skin. And so for that reason, it essentially fell out of favor for decades. And in its place came alternating current, the tens units, the and MSF's, these various sorts of modalities, inter-provincial various things that people may be familiar with. And so we've actually brought back direct current. And we found some ways to get that into the body with some engineering breakthroughs, be able to get that in without burning the skin. And okay, so all that, all that to, you know, give the backstory.

That's history. Now why does it matter? Well, it matters because of two main benefits. The first one has to do with the effect on the nervous system. I talked about how, you know, you had that experienced doctor was of feeling greater, you know, cognitive mental clarity and energy when you use it. And we talked about how the signal can actually create the same input as if you're moving well with alternating current, that signal is going in both directions back and forth. It alternates positive negative positive negative.

And so you end up causing muscles to contract and fight against each other. It's like if your bicep and triceps fighting against each other, quad and hamstring fighting against each other. It's sort of like if you're driving a car, hitting the throttle on the brake pedal at the same time. So it's this signal that creates more, more motor output, specifically muscles tensing and fighting against each other. Whereas with direct current, you bypass a lot of that and you get more of that input, more powerful, more precisely or directly, I could say, into the nervous system.

So you get a lot, a lot more of this input, and it can allow you to have a more significant effect on the nervous system. And, I would expect and you can tell me if there's a problem with your experience or not, that that we should be able, in less time and less effort to get a lot more done with the direct current compared to the older alternating current modalities. Because, again, I'll comment on the experience between the two devices. So I've met Garrett. I had a chance to, try out the newbie.

I liked it a lot. I and I basically have switched, my, my training to using the newbie device. You can get, greater intensity, so more current, far more comfortably with the direct current. And, this is really just a part of my regular routine. And so, you know, people know that I'm far stronger. I can hike, I can bike, I can even jog. And I do this, no, in part for, maintaining my strength. But also interesting enough, I just really like the cognitive and mood effects. I loved electricity from the beginning.

I found it to be very helpful for the mood and cognitive effect. And then when I switched over to the newbie, the mood and cognitive effect was even much greater. And I found that I could tolerate a much higher dose of electricity with the newbie than I could with the alternating current device. You know, and I did try a wide number of different alternating current devices because people would always like, send me their device to try out. And so I've tried a wide number of devices and settings, including the Russian protocol, and, the newbie, certainly, in my experience, has been superior.

Awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, I mentioned there were there are two, broadly speaking, two main categories of benefit. So the first is this effect on neuromuscular reeducation.

NewFit Device and Direct Current Advantages 17:00

Creating is important in the nervous system that influence movement activation. And even as you, you know, talked about things like mental clarity, cognition, mood, etc., the other category of benefit has to do with the longer term effect on tissue healing. Because when you have these direct current electric fields and electric field is sort of like if you have a hill, you know, if you have a hill and you put a ball on the top of the hill, it's going to roll downhill because of the gravity and the potential energy there.

And likewise, if you have an electric field and there's a charge present, it's going to move towards, you know, whether it's positive or negative, it's going to move if it's positive, move towards the negative electrode and vice versa. So it's going to cause charges to move and it's going to cause cells to move because cells in the body are charged moving away, they can actually influence the processes of healing and regeneration. And there's a couple of really cool studies that we've done. One just got published in the Journal for Diabetes Research on poly neuropathy patients.

So this is where there's nerve degeneration. So this is diabetic neuropathy. You know, different mechanism from Ms.. But similar in the sense that there is demyelination. There's degeneration of nervous system tissue here. You know, nerves in the in the peripheral nervous system. And we actually got to do this really cool head to head study 75 patients got traditional, you know, tens unit alternating current 75 patients got the direct current of the newbie. And with the 75 that got alternating current, you know, what happened is what most people expect with that population where it's been written off that they can ever really heal in any meaningful way.

It's more about palliative care, symptom management. And, you know, they made very little incremental or no progress with the direct current of the newbie. However, that other 75 people, they actually reported better sensation improvements in activities of daily living and function. And we also saw measured with EMG, measured nerve conduction velocity testing actually saw regeneration in just six weeks of axons and re myelination too. So there's some really wonderful things happening there. And then we have a related a second study going on now with same thing using these very sophisticated measurements.

So EMG, you're actually literally measuring the electrical activity inside of the nerve. You can tell how well that nerve is working, how much electricity it's able to conduct. And so now we're doing the same with, ridiculous breathy patients. So that's like if the nerve would be pinched in the lumbar spine and it leaves a spinal cord, that nerve can degenerate. And this is helping to regenerate. So, you know, similar sort of thing that, that studies in progress right now. So we don't have the results.

But the one on neuropathy in the Journal of Diabetes Research. And we can of course share the link is is, you know, very exciting and certainly has carry over different population. Yes. But there's a reason to believe that there's carryover here as well. You know, again, for the listeners. But I think, the message here is that, you know, the concept that you've been told you have, damage that is not recoverable, I think we can call into question that there may be more recovery. That is possible.

Of course. You want the listener to know that. You want to be sure that you have great nutrition. So you have all of the building blocks that your nerves need. And then we want to give the signals to the nervous system that tell the nervous system to begin to do the repair. And that's where I'm. Thank you. And, Garrett, you can, tell me if I've got this wrong, that the signals from the newbie, which helps stimulate the nerve growth factors in the brain, in the nervous system, because these nerve growth factors are the messengers to the neurons to initiate the repair process.

And then that repair can begin to happen. Would that be an accurate description? Yes. Absolutely. So, so there's there's there's different factors here. And we're still, you know, trying to figure out exactly how much of it is is one factor versus another. However we do we do know. So exactly like you described. There's some, you know, direct stimulation of the release of various nerve growth factors. And then there's also this, you know, influence on the autonomic nervous system and things that control more globally the body's ability to heal.

And there's also this, this really interesting notion of, you know, and we sort of touched on this in terms of neuroplasticity that use it or lose it type of principle, as you were talking about how expensive the real estate in the brain is, for example, that, you know, there's this very interesting, very interesting, process that the body, the, the body has that the brain has of trying to partition energy. You know, there's this order where the brain, the brain gets energy into the more primitive parts.

First the brain stem, the more centrally located parts of the brain, they need to get enough energy before there's energy left over for the higher order parts of the brain, the frontal cortex. You know, these areas that that do executive function and higher cognitive function and things like that. And similarly with with any resources in the body, there has to be there has to be a compelling reason for the for the body to invest. You talked about, you know, expensive real estate, talking about how much energy it takes.

It's really fascinating to think about how much energy it takes to maintain nervous system signals. We have these sodium and potassium pumps and to to not just build a new nerve pathway, but to to maintain that, to continuously send electricity down those takes a lot of energy. And so you have to help the body understand that this pathway is going to be used enough, and then it's significant enough and important enough that it's worth investing the energy and resources as well. So so some of it is, yes, these nerve growth factors and and some of it is being able to to create this, this, you know, impetus, this signal into the body so that it understands.

And that's how it knows where to put those nerve growth factors and those other, other resources as well. So there's a finite amount of those. And helping the body know where to direct them is very important. Now, I think it'd be really helpful for listeners to hear some, and I assume you have this some, interesting patient recovery stories, folks, you know, because, you know, people look at me like, oh, my God, you recovered. But it's only you. No one else has recovered from, you know, such profound disability.

It just can't happen. You're just one case. But I know, in fact, you have seen remarkable recoveries. And other folks who, like me, were profoundly disabled. Do you have some stories that you could share for us? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we have. So we have this, this weekend intensive that we've been doing sometimes called the Miss Boot Camp. And we have had no problem at the time. You and I have this conversation, you know, somewhere between 12 to 15 classes where we've had, you know, people come down for a long weekend, you know, 6 to 8 people come down and they do, they do a weekend intensive.

Healing, Recovery, and Patient Stories 24:00

They do two sessions a day over three days, and then they can continue on with treatments, you know, assuming they have a positive experience, which most virtually everyone has. And they then continue on with a provider near them that's using the newbie, or sometimes they can get their own devices, you know, whatever, whatever it might be. So we've seen, you know, I can't tell you how many examples of people who come in to that weekend and in just three days, they are either able to, you know, walk better with drop foot, you know, like someone I've heard this similar story 3 or 4 times from people you know.

So drop foot when the when the foot, it's difficult to lift the foot up. Right. So the foot is kind of stuck, flexed or pointed and, you know, it's a common symptom for patients with Ms.. And it's difficult to walk because if you're if you're bringing your leg through in a walking gait, it can the foot can catch because you can't lift the foot up is enough as, as one would intend for the gait. So so I've heard, you know, several times the story of just in that first weekend, you know, someone telling us, oh my gosh, I was able to walk across my hotel room without a cane.

I didn't trip and my gait was so much more smooth. And the you know, it's so interesting to see progress that people can make very quickly. There's sort of two categories of progress. So oftentimes we see that someone will come in and say, oh wow, I was able to use my hands to to actually write. Am I my penmanship actually look good just in this weekend or wow, I was able to oh my, my hip flexor was stuck in spasm and now I can actually stand up straight for the first time. So we see these changes sometimes in three days and it's like, well wait a second.

What happened is this neuroplasticity? Well, this is actually a little bit of that dark side of neuroplasticity. This is a case where people had this capacity for function, but because they weren't using it their brains. You know, our one other element of neuroscience here is that our brains are set up to protect us. They don't want us to do too much too, you know, stretched too far, moved too fast, exert too much force in case we get injured. And so they were they were sort of narrowing their zone, their margin of safety and not not allowing themselves to do these things.

So one of it was just showing them that it was safe to tap into these greater levels of function. And then, you know, with these early, you know, early signs of improvement, of course, they want to continue on over time. And then over time, we look at those benefits of neuroplasticity. We've seen people who have come and spent some time with us, you know, spent a few days with us, go on to do things like, you know, a woman who actually I wrote about in, a featured story in my book, The New Friend Method here.

But don't just pull that quickly. You know, a woman named Wendy there who had been in a wheelchair for, you know, several years before she came in to see us. You know, she, in the first few days fed some more range of motion, less spasticity, you know, had a little bit more strength where she could actually lift, you could extend her leg for the first time. So really good early progress. But then she continued on. She brought her machine back to Milwaukee, and she continued on. And in that next year, she got out of a wheelchair.

She was able to to walk, and she walked her son down the aisle at his wedding. She actually, she, she was able to, no longer need a full time caregiver at home. She was able to she got her driver's license back. She lost her driver's license. She was able to take the driver's test and get it back. And, you know, her husband just sent me a video of her, of the two of them dancing at a rock concert. I mean, it was you. Look at the transformation. It was amazing. And then, you know, another story that comes to mind is a woman who had come to see us, at this weekend intensive.

You know, she had actually been in her early 20s at Juilliard, like the premier elite music school piano player. And when she got diagnosed with Ms.. She started losing function in her hands. And, you know, almost 20 years later, it was, you know, late 30s, early 40s. She had been using the newbie for about 6 or 7 weeks after leaving her visit to see us in Austin, and she sent us a video of her with the electric glove on. So the machine is actually going, sending current through these gloves that connect to it.

And she was playing her piano skills for the first time in over a decade. And it was just this amazing, wonderful story I just saw, you know, I just saw another one of a guy who wrote in a thing that, two months after using the machine or after two months of using the machine, he just mowed his lawn for the first time. And and, you know, a couple of years, I don't even remember the how long it was. But, you know, there's these amazing, amazing stories that's so inspiring. You know, if I remember correctly, I think Wendy had been a, volleyball player.

She had been an athlete, beforehand, and, you know, the part of the reason I bring that up is, the athletes understand training, that it takes time, and that, you can't go out and run a marathon a week after you start training, that it's going to take a gradual, progressive, work and all of this. But again, for the listeners, remarkable progress can be made. If you're willing to commit, better nutrition, and beginning a training program, even if you are profoundly disabled, whether it's a hand disability or a walking disability.

I think the the newbie can be, quite profound. Another thing that we haven't talked about that I want to draw everyone's attention to is inactivity increases insulin resistance. Risk for metabolic syndrome, prediabetes, diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, and problems with your cholesterol and all of those things. Accelerate, disability for Ms. muscle activity, doing work with our muscles. It's a endocrine organ. And so adding electrically driven exercise, that we do with the newbie even before you are physically fit. Yet can improve your metabolism of glucose.

How your insulin works, how your blood cholesterol works. This is, why functional electrical stimulation is so helpful for paralyzed individuals. It's why I tell my listeners. So, all of you, why, even if you are profoundly disabled, even if you've decided, you know what? I'm not going to be walking again. You could be. But doing electrical stimulation can be so helpful because it decreases the harm of inactivity. It can improve how your metabolism works, in addition to the possibility of restoring better motor function.

And if I may just piggyback on that, I think that was beautifully said. I wish I could underscore or highlight and italicize that just for emphasis. I think that's so important. And one of the cool things about analogy like this is when we talk about movement and exercise and building muscle, because as you said, it's an endocrine organ. You know, there's this principle in, in exercise,

Metabolism, Training, and How to Use the Device 31:00

in training called progressive overload, right. Once you can lift 10 pounds and it becomes easy, you know, it's it's nice to be able to progress and lift and not as nice. It's helpful to progress and lift 12 pounds and then 15 pounds etc.. And so so there is this question of let's say someone is disabled enough to the point where they can't really they don't have enough strength to lift their leg. They can't even get one rep of a movement. Well, they can use, you know, technology like the newbie, and they can get stimulation as if they're doing multiple reps and multiple reps and then work up to it.

And then, you know, someone might get to the point where they can move a little bit, but they can't necessarily, you know, lift weights or as significant resistance. Well, they can use this signal to add, you know, digital weight, I would say, or something like that, where they can add additional resistance or input to increase the benefits, the efficacy and the effect of that exercise. So there is this, this sort of game that you have to play in figuring out how to progress what you're doing and do it safely.

And this is a really cool tool that can allow these, these strategies to effectively increase the intensity of and therefore the benefit of exercise, and to do it in a way that's safe and accessible. You know, for the listeners, I want you to know that, that's why I believe and, what I think, Garrett, I'll let him comment about that. The device is super helpful. The person who helps you use the device that helps you design the exercises you're going to do with the device is also critical because you want to know how to use the device, put in the electrodes, and gradually progress what you are doing so you can make progress.

And that's where having, someone trained in, exercise and the technology, so helpful, just getting, a device without, a person to help you use it, is going to have limited benefit. Garrett, do you want to add any more? Yeah, I, I totally agree. And it, it's, you know, I'm a part of a part of it is definitely, you know, I can just sit there and it's not going to do anything, right. You know, you didn't know how to use it, how to how to maximize the benefit of it. And so we pride ourselves on being able to train other clinicians that use it, having our team internally, our team of physical therapists that can create programs for people and coach them on how to use it and things like that.

And so, you know, for anyone listening to this, if they're interested on our website, which of course, we can share a link to, there is a directory of providers that are using this technology. And if there's someone in your area, we wholeheartedly encourage you to see them. You know, if for any reason you want to work with our team directly, you want to come to one of our one of these boot camps. Or if there's not anyone near you, and it makes more sense to have a device at home and work remotely with our team.

That's certainly an option. But just, you know, to to echo what, doctor? Well said. It is important to work with someone who is skilled in the use of this and knows, you know, general body movement. And these are the way to kind of guide you through these safe progressions. Okay. Well, Garrett, you and I could talk for hours on this, but we should, probably wrap this up, tell people how to find you. In your, team. The best way is our certainly our website. And we have a landing page specific for your audience sector.

Well, also, new dot fit. That's new fit slash walls. Of course, everyone probably knows that. And then we're most active on Instagram at New fit RFP for rehab, fitness and performance. Also, new fit RFP on Facebook. Okay, this is wonderful. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you and your team. Thank you, doctor Wells.