Precision Mycotoxin Detoxification in MCAS and Sensitivities

Introduction and Beth O'Hara's background 0:00

Welcome to today's episode of the Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness Summit. I'm so happy today to have Beth O'Hara with us. She's a functional Natura bath specializing in complex, chronic cases of Marcel activation syndrome, histamine intolerance, and mold toxicity. She's the founder and owner of Mast Cell 360, a functional naturopathy practice designed to look at all factors surrounding health conditions genetic, epigenetic, biochemical, physiologic, environmental and emotional. She designed Mast Cell 360 to be the kind of practice she wished had existed when she was severely ill with mast cell activation syndrome, histamine intolerance, mold toxicity, neural inflammation, Lyme, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue.

Her mission today is to be a guiding light for others with mass cell activation syndrome, histamine intolerance, and these related conditions in their healing journeys. Thank you. Beth. Oh thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And I know this whole summit is a game changer for people. And I think some of the things we're going to get into will start to shift how people are healing and help them heal faster, and hopefully with less money than what it took me to get well. And probably many people you know as well.

Yeah. So I'm so happy to have you here. So start by telling us about what you've experienced. I'd love to hear and have you share about your journey with all of this. Yeah, I think that's a big part of what what I do now, where stems from. When I was seven, we moved to the country, which was fun in a lot of ways. But we moved to this old farmhouse and did not know it was full of toxic mold and didn't actually know that until I was in my later 20s. But I started having these health issues creep up early on.

By the time I was 12, was having hypoglycemia and having things like my visions start to black out and I had these severe allergies. I would have hives all over. And when you grew up in the country, you're always picking and canning green beans and one of my jobs was also to feed the chickens and have to feed them corn, dried corn. And then I'd just be covered in these hives and I would scratch my skin at night until I bled and, you know, scratching my eyes and always this itchy allergy kind of symptoms.

And then around age 12, like, if I started getting asthma, I was getting I was tired as I was getting tired than other kids and I had a car accident was 16. I just couldn't bounce back and get a bed. But I was still moving along and it was my just absolute passion to go to medical school. So I decided this by the time I was six. And just to illustrate how serious I was when I was 16, all I wanted was Gray's Anatomy. I was like, if I got a copy of Gray's Anatomy, I was good. I didn't need a car. And I was, you know, finding bleached skeletons in the woods and reassembling them.

Early symptoms, collapse, and search for answers 3:25

And, and just so you can get a sense of how important that was to me. And so I was pushing way too hard in college, I was working three jobs and I was taking graduate level courses in undergrad, and I was working with a PhD student on research. And and the summer of my junior year, I just totally crashed out. And I was so severely fatigued that I knew if I made it through the four years of medical school, I would never make it through residency. So one of the most devastating things in my life was turning down.

I had a full scholarship, and I had to turn it down and figure out what in the world else was. I going to do. And instead of going to medical school, I had to become a chronically ill patient. Take going the circuit, you know, from doctor and a doctor to doctor ranked completely exhausted, what Western medicine had to offer. And it was actually making me worse. Every medication made me worse. I remember there was, I had such severe anxiety and depression at this point, and I had tried different kinds of antidepressants, and someone had me tried Depakote.

I had a sixth of a tablet and my body temperature up to 94 I my organs felt like they'd slowed down. I'd have a bowel movement for a week, so that was like a six on the tablet, right? So starting to get these weird reactions that nobody understood. And then I discovered, holistic medicine. I tried everybody I could get my hands on that wasn't working. I did homoeopathy, functional medicine was growing, and I found the most skilled and experienced person in my area because this is all before telehealth.

So, you know, now you can get in contact with all these experts and professionals around the world. But back then it had to be in driving distance. So you had to be able to fly. And I was too sick to travel very much. And so the most experienced person in my area, I tried everything, everything recommended for three years, and it was down to where it'd be like a quarter of quercetin. I mean, a sprinkle of quercetin was giving me worse anxiety and I couldn't sleep that night and curcumin was making me more inflamed.

So everything was paradoxical. And by the time I was 28, I had to use a cane to just barely hobble across the room. And we remember holding my bladder because it was so excruciating to be able to get up to go to the bathroom. And my friends were out dancing and I was wearing orthopedic shoes and just this horrific pain that kept me from sleeping and my sleep was terrible. So about three years into working with functional medicine practitioner, which I think was about practitioner 50, number 50, who had tried, he said, you know what, Beth?

We've done everything. I know what to do. We've reached the end of where an I to go with you. And I really appreciate his honesty, but I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this is practitioner number 50. And if he doesn't know what to do. And I had spent $150,000 at that point. Who's going to know this? And I cried the whole drive home. And it was exhausting just to get there and get back. And I got home and I thought, you know, I can either throw in the towel and be done with my life at this point, or I can figure this out and I at least have that pre-med background.

So I started reading, studying everything I get my hands on. We knew I had Lyme, they can tolerate any treatments we had Bartonella rabies. Yeah, I knew I had histamine intolerance. But I finally found about masturbation syndrome, and this was like 8 or 9 years ago. So there's still kind of this theoretical thing wasn't an official diagnosis yet, and a lot of people didn't know about it. But I was like, oh my gosh, this makes sense. And then I thought, well, that's the answer. And I started addressing it, but I still couldn't tolerate taking much.

I, I started with tiny sprinkles in water and then like a sip of water and then I wouldn't drink the rest of the water. But over a couple of years, I got some things on board. I got a little better, but I still was really struggling and then realized, well, wait a minute, why are these masks all stirred up? Why am I so inflamed? What is happening here? It's not just that it's nasal activation syndrome. There's something triggering that. And I realized there was something beyond the Lyme as well.

And that's when I figured out the mold toxicity and when I realized I had a mold toxicity. Everything makes sense because I didn't know that toxic mold could from years ago, could make you sick and could stay in your body and colonize and then just continue to produce toxins. Plus, I was renting, office space in a historic building that was built after the Civil War. And so I was on the lower level. Well, when I went to move out of there, the plaster just crumbled. When I took stuff off the walls from it just being wet and feeling that mold toxicity and starting to address that in ways of working with my nervous system, calming those vessels and then detoxing.

That was the game changer. And like, I got my brain bag, my anxiety, this anxiety it had for 20 years, it was horrific, was gone. I almost never have anxiety anymore. I got my joints back. I just did a mile hike. A couple other an hour long hike. Actually, I don't know how long it was, but a couple days ago when I could barely walk across the room. So for me, just every day feels like a gift

Yoga, nervous system work, and emotional healing 9:26

and a blessing and and it got my brain back to go back to graduate school. And I finished to, to graduate degrees. And I built this practice and stuff that I just never thought was going to be possible. I thought my life was going to be on the couch and that was the best I could do. And, I just I feel so grateful now. Thank you for sharing that with us. You know, you sound exactly like most of my patients and your patients as well. And having people hear your story, I think, gives them a lot of hope.

There is hope. And when people first walk into my office, they don't believe that they can heal. They have seen 50 other doctors before coming to our clinic. And, and we're looking under the hood. We're looking at things that, that, that, medical school we're not taught to look at whether it's allopathic medical school or, through functional medicine or even naturopathic school. We're taught how to be primary care physicians, excellent primary care physicians. But but looking at chronic illness is absolutely a different, different theory, a different lens.

And in a different application of medicine. And so you sound like somebody who's been through everything. It sounds like you had mold tick borne illness. And then secondary to all of that, nasal activation syndrome and maybe even other environmental toxicants. I'd love to hear about your journey back to health. Can you share with us? Yeah, I'd I'd love to. And there's so many layers. I mean, I've had severe chronic Sibo. I've had Epstein-Barr, I've had HSV viruses attacking my nervous system. I mean, it's just so many things that people go round and round and round about.

I dealt with, I started like I said, well, there were a couple things. One of the things that was a big shift and, and probably one of the reasons that I'm still here was when I was in college, I discovered yoga, and I know yoga now, like, there's a yoga studio on every corner, and you go to the YMCA. But this was 20 years, more than 20 years ago. And when, when I was in college, I had to have two pay credits. And most of the stuff was, you know, you could play, you could take volleyball, you could take basketball, you do swimming, and I can do any of that stuff.

I was having trouble walking 2 or 3 blocks, so that was not going to happen. And I wasn't aware. I have Eds, I don't have coordination. And then I had a head injury when I was a child, and I have a little cerebellum damage, so I don't have good coordination. So I couldn't play billiards like that was off the table. And the one thing I thought I could do is yoga. And I was so fortunate that the teacher was, like a very genuine eye injury yoga teacher. And so this was a classic medical therapeutic style of yoga.

I love to hear that because there's a lot of McDonald's yoga out there. And here's find what's, what is authentic anymore in the world. Yeah. Back then we could. But yeah. And so that was a game changer for me because I was in so much intense pain and I had pain from these injuries, this head injury and the car accident and things that hadn't been addressed. And so my, my main strategy was to get out of my body. No, no, no. Right, right. So yoga made me start to become into my body and be present and be aware.

And it was I was so used to school coming easy, and I never had anything that was really challenging. And that was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life, was to be in my body for an hour and a half. And so, and it wasn't what I thought. I thought it was going to be chanting, and then taking a nap. Right. But it started to get me to move and it started to shift things, and it made me more aware and more attentive to what happening in my body was very uncomfortable and unpleasant, but it was a massive tool for me later in life in terms of healing and being able to track what was happening and watch what was happening and know, is this good for me?

Is this not good for me? So there was no map or no formula for for getting well and, and I ended up getting trained in that style and becoming a medical yoga therapist. And that was one of the things I did when I couldn't go to medical school. It was I was a unusual one because a lot of times I had to teach from a chair because I was too ill to demonstrate, but that that's what I did for a while. And I started, like I said, with these little sips of sprinkles is what I call. I put a little sprinkle of something in water, stir it, take a sip, and that's enough.

The other piece for me was that intense nervous system work. But again, this was before we had DNR and Gupta program and brain tap and all these amazing, really targeted systems now that work so much more effectively. So it was a lot of experimentation and seeing does this breathing practice calm my nervous system, or does it excite my nervous system and honing in and then finding will that changes week to week and month to month. But experimenting there and really dialing that down? I also did a huge amount of emotional healing.

And there's a, there's a big trauma that comes with being this illness. And no, you know very well and it's it's so hard. And then also, I wish this was unique, but it's very common. So many practitioners, when they didn't know what to do with me or they my case scared them, told me that I was crazy, and they told me that I wanted to be sick. That was the worst I could take. Being told I was crazy because, you know, sometimes I wondered what exactly. But being told that I wanted to be sick when I was working so hard was one of the most horrible things to hear.

And I did a lot of emotional healing work with a system, particularly a system called the Enneagram. And it's about watching our patterns and knowing our motivations. And and those two pieces really kept me going in the darkest days of knowing that, okay, well, my pattern is to not ask for help and to think that my needs are important and not take care of myself. And so I had to really overcome that aspect of it while I'm doing these sips of sprinkles. So it took me about two years to build up to a quarter capsule of anything.

And at that time, I didn't know that I was what I was working on. Adding in were mast cell stabilizers, but I was trying to get quercetin on board, just trying to things like Boswell. Yeah. And so I started there and I started with all this nutrient tinkering, and then I got into genetics and did a lot of genetic tinkering, which did get me some, some inroads. And I had a lot of variance on glutamate and a lot of variance. And, some of these other pathways that we were looking at the time, methylation pathways and so on.

And so I could get little bits of things that would calm the glutamate and that would help the anxiety. Right. But I didn't know at the time and understand how much mold toxins I even know about them yet and increase those glutamate pathways and change that genetic expression and how lime changes that genetic expression. But that was kind of that crawl out then. I mean, I figured out oxalate issues,

Mast cell activation syndrome and immune dysfunction 17:28

that I had massive oxalate issues and that was affecting my joints. So I shifted my foods. I was eating tons of sweet potatoes and spinach and beets, all those super high oxalate foods. Yeah, that got me off the chain. And it was like it was like stepping stone by stepping stone, because I didn't have this paradigm or this foundation that we understand today. I was shooting in the dark and finding one little piece, one little piece, one little piece. You're doing this on your own at this moment?

Yeah, it was mostly done on my own occasionally. And find a practitioner who would have a pearl, and I could incorporate the pearl, but I hadn't found anyone who really got my case, and, and I didn't until I met Neal Nathan, who's my mentor now. But, then he put the last two pieces together. I was like, whoa. We were off to the races at that point. Beth, how many years ago was this? Well, this journey, I mean, I really started at 19 on my own, figuring out what was going on and going from doctor to doctor on my own.

But even as a child, I was on lots of antihistamines and mast cell medications. And, they helped me, but I didn't. I think they made it worse long term because that's all I had. So I wiped out my defenses. And I would say, you know, I really probably started turning the corner about 4 or 5 years ago. So this recent healing, it's kind of recent, I, I it wasn't like a sudden. I mean, I went back to graduate school, I got a masters in marriage and family therapy, and then I went back and finished in naturopathy.

So I got some energy and brainpower back to start to do those things. But to be alive and vibrant I would say has been, you know, more recent. Good for you. Thank you. I'm gone every day. I'm so grateful. Oh, this is quite a journey you've been through. And more and more there are people who share your story and I'm so I'm so grateful you're out here talking about your story. Because people do. They feel isolated. They're told they're crazy. Yeah. Or they've been told that they want to be sick. None of these things are true.

And, to have you who's who's been through it, and now you're here, you're you've turned it into something. You've turned into a gift to share back with the world. So it's just such a such a beautiful, beautiful thing you've done with what you've experienced. And, I know that a lot of my patients out there who you know, who know they will do something, something as well to, to make beauty out of, out of what they've experienced. And that's our mission here is. Yes. At mass 360. I mean, it's written right into our mission that we're not just here to help people recover your health.

We're here to help people recover their lives and their dreams. Yeah, yeah, but you all do it at court and medical as well. And that that's one of the very optimistic things is, you know, I tell my stories like, oh my gosh, she wants to go through all of that. But we don't have to anymore because this is I think we're in this renaissance of understanding mold toxicity. And there are a lot of practitioners who are really skilled in this area, and you can get help. And so people don't have to navigate this on their own.

They don't have to figure it out on their own, and they don't have to take 20 years. And at one point I had totaled up. Eventually I had seen over 75 practitioners, and I think I've spent over $300,000 figuring this out. I mean, that's all my resources went to it to, to get well, because if I didn't have my health, I mean, I couldn't work. What was the point? And now we don't have to do that. People can get well. A lot of times I see people who are really ill and they're done in 2 to 4 years. If it's really complex, it's maybe five years.

It's just sounds like a long time, but it's so much shorter in a 20. Yes. And in year there's spending fractions of what we had to spend when we had no idea what was going on. Absolutely. So we both work a lot with patients who have mast cell activation syndrome. I have you tell our tell our viewers a little bit more about what that is. And, and how to handle it. Yeah. So one of the really fascinating things about these mast cells is that there is front line defending and sensing cells of our bodies, and they're in all the tissues that meet the outside.

So our skin and our nose and our sinuses and our eyes, all that tissue and the whole GI tract from the mouth, down the esophagus and in all the way through the intestines and there in the lungs, and then the muscles and the bones, they're in almost every tissue in the body other than, I believe is the cornea. There might be a couple others, but they're pretty much everywhere. And one of the other things fascinating is they're at every nerve ending. So there's this constant communication between these mass cells and our nerves and a nervous system because the nerves are sensing and and that's how this detecting viruses and bacteria and toxins and also looking for injury and where repair needs to happen.

All these things. So they these huge amount of functions in the body that we don't even have time to get into. All of them are really involved in pregnancy and how are they long sleep wake cycles and and then the way they do that is they have hundreds of receptors on the outside that detect all these different things. So they're we're still learning things about them, which I love to make new Peters and new receptors and how these receptors work. And they were first discovered in the 1800s, the later 1800s.

So I love it when there's something you can always keep digging into layers on and learning about. And then they have these hundreds of different mediators inside them that can release, depending on what's going on, and communicate and orchestrate some of the immune response. So big, one of the big orchestrators of how our immune system works. So there's so important and I want to highlight the benefits of them because they tend to get a bad rap. Right. You should just shut those cells down. Well, the problem is if they're like the guards of the castle gate, you don't want to wipe your guards of your castle gate out because then you don't have anybody defending.

And I think that's part of why that's so sick. And that's all people need to do with me. When I was had this horrible hives and itching my skin off and was to give me mast, cell stabilizers, antihistamines, it made sense. But then I didn't have any defense system against the mold colonization. I didn't have a defense system against the Lyme, the Bartonella disease. Bijlani I've seen barn, all these other things. So this big chronic toxin or pathogen load build up, end to end toxin. Yeah. But then what happens?

The metaphor I really like is if you have these guards of the castle gate, they should be able to be on duty and take a break and be on duty and take a break. Except we live in this massively toxic world now and we're completely bombarded by different toxins. We have stress levels we've never had in human history, responsibilities we ever had, access to, media we've never had, and seeing all kinds of terrible things. And also sensationalism is stressful. And we've got EMF levels we've never had in human history.

And in mast cells, it's clear, clear data and the research literature that mast cells do granulation, the presence of emfs. So they release all those inflammatory mediators. So it's like they have to be on duty 24 seven. And we know that if we don't get to rest and we are on duty for, you know, seven days, ten days, 28 days in a row, you're going to get pretty wonky. Can't think straight. And so on a biochemical level, the mast cell start to lose the ability to discern, oh, that is something that we need to keep out.

That's an enemy. And oh, that's a grain of rice or some broccoli or a carrot. It should be fine. So it's like they start shooting at the butterflies when they can't tell the difference anymore between friend and foe. And then they get and they get hyper responsive. So I like to think of them like they've got PTSD,

Mold toxicity, detox pathways, and binders research 26:18

so they're kind of trigger happy and hyper vigilant. And it's part of that immune system, nervous system, that psycho neuro immunological axis going on there. Right? I think of it as our patients have a combination of of, on one hand, a hyperactive immune system with massive activation syndrome and autoimmune conditions. On the other hand, their immune system isn't able, isn't strong enough to mount an immune response, an appropriate immune response to to deal with the infections that they have.

And and so finding ways to modulate the immune response where it's not hyperactive and but but also not not not so weak that it cannot kill an infection appropriately. What you say about toxins, I think, is so important because we've had these bugs. When I say bugs, I'm thinking, molds and parasites, bacteria, viruses. We've had them around us since we've since humankind has begun, and we've been able to live side by side with them until recently. So I'd say in the past 20 years, we've been seeing people more and more who've experienced what you experienced.

And I think it has everything to do with the environmental toxicant load, because that's that's something that our genes, it takes 25,000 years or more for a gene for our genes to change. But but they're expressing AP genetically now, in a way that they weren't before, I think due to the environmental toxins and in a new kind of stress that that everyday people are having. Exactly. And you think about around 2004, 2009, that period was only so bringing Wi-Fi routers in your homes and and so all these things interact and they make them all the more virulent.

It's more the producing more toxins and producing stronger toxins. And that's all having a load especially we're talking about this immune balance where up to each one virus and bacterial killing side gets really dampened. And I have a slide I use in the, mold course that I teach for sensitive people on how we have the seesaw kind of thing that should be balanced with this pathogen killing teach one side and then teach to. That includes the nasal side should be kind of in balance. But then mold is like this huge weight that just boom and takes the teeny one side out.

And then we're left with this elevated mass activation, chronic inflammation. So we're inflamed and we can't kill anything off. Exactly. Yeah. Mold just and it disrupts so many systems in the body. Yeah it sure does. Will you tell us about the research that you, that you did with, Doctor Nathan and some other doctors as well around binders? Very interesting. I would love to. And so this research was done with, Doctor Neil Nathan, Emily Gibbler, who's a colleague of mine at Tree of Life Health and Doctor Jo Mather.

And how this kind of came about was that, and Lane air on the board with Bob Miller for the Neutral Genetic Research Institute. So we were preparing for a conference on mold toxicity and genetics, and she and I took different pathways and mapped out the phase two liver detox pathways and mapped out which mold toxins were detoxed by these different pathways. And so this is where it started. This was such a game changer because I was using glutathione, and a lot of people were using glutathione from old detox.

And what we found was aflatoxin B1 and okra toxin use glutathione. We couldn't find any data on glutathione in any of the other mold toxins being conjugated with glutathione. But the biggest pathway was glucagon, a station which I when I went into, I volunteered to cover glucagon and thinking, this won't take much because in my textbooks we had two pages covering it. That was it. So it should be pretty simple. Pathway. It took me six months. Wow. To get through the research data just on it, and mold toxins and wrap my head around the depth of this pathway that we're not talking about enough, and how glucagon amputation path is the most important of the phase two pathways, and it breaks down up to 70% of all chemicals and medications.

It breaks down our hormones, our fat soluble vitamins like A, K, D, things like CBD. And then a lot of people get salicylate intolerance when they hold. Toxicity with glucagon is one of the pathways. So you think about being a major pathway for mold toxins. And it's a complex pathway. Well you load that down use up all the enzymes for those small toxins. There's not anything left for salicylate. So that's part of that. And then salvation's involved and that's part of salicylates. So that's kind of how it started.

And the only thing was at that conference and he came up to this after, it seems like, look, we got to get this consolidated. We gotta get this out there. So he got us organized in going. And then I got to meet Joe Mathur and Joe Math. I did a bulk of research on binders, and I got to tag on to that a little bit. And what we found with the binders and was and I want to really give credit to, to Doctor Mathur, what we found with the binders is that, you know, a lot of us were using like charcoal, CoStar amine for binding all toxins, and those will bind some because timing really works for okra toxin.

I haven't had great success with it with sensitive people either. It's pretty intense for people usually, but we're missing so many other mold toxins that that they're not touching. So Glo toxin, clear toxin doesn't have an affinity for Polestar. I mean, at least that we found any data for. So so where we're starting to do this precision detox approach, we're now we have a matrix and we're continually updating it as new research comes in. But we can look at okay we've got okra toxin. So these are the preferred binders that have the best affinity.

Or we've got the aflatoxin or the glo toxin. So let's bring these in or this person is now excreting more clear toxins. So we want to bump these up a little bit. And we're finding people are actually having an easier time and they're getting done faster with this targeted approach. And once we get those binders on board then we go, okay, phase two pathway. And I love to look at the genetics and go, oh gosh, there's a lot of genetic variants in glucagon addition. Let's support there. And somebody might want to do a little support their lifelong if they've got a lot of variance in these certain places.

Thank you I love that I love that it can be so specific now thanks to the research that you've all done. Because we in this kind of medicine, there's not enough research and it's. It's been a lot. Bye bye bye. Clinical trial right error. And so the more and more research we have, the easier, the easier our job is to help the patient to heal faster, the easier it is on the patient. That's the most important thing. And and also we're not able to to teach other other doctors about about this hidden information that you're bringing to the surface.

So I just love it. And yeah, I know and especially that order as well, I see a lot of people come in, where it's just not understood, widespread enough that we need to open up these pathways in a really logical order by making sure constipation is addressed. And then right, and, and, and calming the mass cells so that they can handle the load of pulling the toxins out of the tissue, directly harming the nervous system. Then we can do the binders and, and then support the liver and then support and then bring in those antimicrobials.

But there's a lot of times I have people come in and they're trying to antifungals and they still have constipation or just, they don't have any binders on board yet. And that's really backfiring for people, really is. Or people are on binders and they're constipated. They're just not ready for detox. I like to give my patients a pre talks even, which is to support the organs of elimination, treat their mouth cells. First work on the nervous system. A lot of patients have cranial cervical instability varying degrees of it.

And to work on that even before treating with MSL MSL modulators and then detox finally start to start in kill off infections. While I've got all the other stuff on board, it sounds like we really take the same steps forward in in treating patients. I've had a lot of people come into the clinic and they've been on antibiotics for years, and none of the other stuff has been addressed.

Treatment order, structural issues, and closing resources 35:48

And, and, and they just keep going with the antibiotics even though it's not working. They say that they feel like zombies or they feel like shells of themselves with this way of treatment, but then they keep pressing on because what else are they to do? But you and I have the same message. It's clear that there's so much more to do before and during the time of killing off the infections, and so there's so much that we have to undo in these patients that come to us this way and support them in every system.

Absolutely. I have another and I love visuals. And so I do. I like to use where I have this house is under construction. So you can see that the foundation has been poured. And then there are all of the the wood framing is not right, but that's it. There's no real walls or anything. Right. And then I have on there these windows with shutters and I have lime and I have CBO and, and and then the mast cell activation. And if we have loan toxicity and we think that we're going to get rid of this stuff that's upstream of it, it's like trying to put the shutters and the windows on the house where you don't even have the walls built out yet, and it might hold up for a day or two, but then the mold toxins are just this wrecking ball.

So this wrecking ball that just comes through knocks the windows down. And that's the mold again. Yeah. And the square of operations I love we talking about the cervical cranial instability as well. So that was a big part of why I was so ill. Was the head. And and I was kicked in the head by a horse. And so I had a Chiara malformation and cerebral spinal fluid build up on. They have gotten, cranial sacral therapy for years. We actually just found the Chiari malformation for me this year. And so that, you know, there's all these pieces that we've got to be thinking such a big picture and then thinking also what's happening spiritually and emotionally and and structurally.

So I can't tell you how excited I get when I get to talk to someone like you about that, that, you know, people are taking this big picture. Look, because it literally changes the face of not just health care, but people's lives. It sure does. Thank you so much that I just so enjoyed our interview. And and, just bouncing our ideas between each other and seeing the mirrored, we don't see that happening so often, so it's just such a such a treasure to to meet you and, and have this interview. Thank you so much.

It's wonderful to talk about. And I just want to share that we have, tons of free resources if people need help. And I know that you guys have an incredible clinic and we've got a blog that courses where people can step themselves through how to work on the nervous system and start the Marcel Supplements and the Mole Detox. And thank you so much for getting this information out there. As if I had had this even ten years ago, it would have changed my life. And I know it's going to change a lot of people's lives.

It will tell them what your website is. I love your website is full of information and fantastic information, so tell them the website so that I can thank you so much. Is it's mast cell 360. So M as in Mary as T is and Tom kilo 360.com. And then we also have free Facebook lives most Mondays. And people can jump on there and ask questions too. So we try to provide a lot of community support. So again I don't want people to have to go through this alone like I had. Right. Thank you again. Thank you for everything you're doing.

Thank you enough. This is so good to be with you. You to.