Fix Your Fatigue By Knowing The Reasons For Long Haul

Introduction and Dr. Hirschu2019s background 0:00

- Welcome welcome welcome to another edition of Overcoming Long Covid and Chronic Fatigue, today we have another really special guest, Somebody who is, I think looking at this from all the right angles. It's Dr. Evan Hirsch and I need to get my classes on for a moment. And but what's really been important about Dr. Hirsch said he's focused on energy and how to fix your fatigue. That you wrote a book with that name as you can see in the background. And you know, he but at the same time he's focused on what is underneath why you need to fix your fatigue.

And one of the causes are that can be causing problems and using those same eyes. He's been looking at Covid and like many of us, he's been finding all kinds of ways to be helpful. And so Dr. Hirsch really a pleasure to have you. And um you know, just tell us a little bit about what got you down what I call the thinking path. You know, I love doctors, I think they do wonderful things. But to many of them just do paint by numbers when confronted with people, they don't understand, they assigned psychological diagnoses without looking further.

And I know that you're somebody who hasn't done that and I'm always interested in what clicked what got you to do it a little differently. - Well, Dr. Eric thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to the audience today. So for me it really started, I actually was pretty early on this. I actually got board certified in holistic medicine when I was in residency. And a lot of that really came from having a more natural mom growing up and she kind of fixed her cholesterol by going all Oprah ran for about six months and we also ate all Oprah and and it was really nasty, but it really helped her cholesterol.

So it's really interesting to see that. And then as I went into medical school, I just had lots of questions. I've always been very curious and my professors and my attendings really could not answer my questions very well. So I started looking outside. I found holistic medicine that led me to Integrative Medicine that led me to functional medicine. That led me to environmental medicine. And I came out of, I started my residency program already knowledgeable and a lot of holistic medicine. But then my wife, my soon to be wife or we, we just started dating. We fell in love and then a couple of months later she got chronic fatigue and it lasted for about three years and she was about 80% better at that point. And so our relationship continued and we got married. We had a kid, I graduated from residency.

I started my own practice and a couple years later I got chronic fatigue and lasted for five years and it just about destroyed my life just about destroyed my relationship with her where she's like, hey, can you help out with the dishes? I'm just getting over chronic fatigue and we have this new baby and all I could do was lie on the couch just about destroyed my business because I was napping underneath the desk every day. And I had to keep hiring people to do my job because I was so tired. And so yeah, so then I but I when I realized one day after looking up at that desk for the 1000th day in a row,

Long COVID as chronic fatigue and hidden triggers 3:25

that I had to do something and I said, okay, I was already doing a lot of things from an integrated perspective, but I said, I have to find all the causes. I know that if I find all the causes, I'm going to be successful. And at this point, I have found that there's 39 different causes that we look at. But at that point I was at around 20 or 30, but I found all the causes that I had worked through them. Got my energy back, wrote a book about it have helped thousands of people now I'm 100% online so that I can work with people all over the world. And that's my story.

- Is it? I love it? I mean, I just love that, that it's those insights that people bring when they've had to try to heal themselves, that's often so helpful, you know? And so, and now we are dealing with Covid, you know. So, unfortunately, what Covid has done is brought chronic fatigue really into the mainstream, you know, Long Covid is is getting so many people and the symptoms. I mean, that's why we called it overcoming, you know, long haul and chronic fatigue because basically any chronic inflammation, I mean, we could have called it just and chronic inflammation can cause does cause chronic fatigue.

It just depends on, you know, what your triggers are and how your body responds what flavor you're gonna get, you know? But so with that background, you know, how are you looking at long Covid, I guess? You know, how do you see it different from just chronic fatigue? - And so I don't see it that different from chronic fatigue because when I'm looking at chronic fatigue, I have found that people have around 20 or more a combination of 20 or more different causes out of the 39 different causes that we're looking at.

And when we're looking at Long Covid, that is just another infection that we look at. So whether somebody has Epstein Barr virus, that's one of those 20 causes that causes their chronic fatigue or if it's lime or if it's mold, like what's the biggest one in this case, Covid is the straw that broke the camel's back. But the stage was already set, people had been accumulating toxins throughout their life, whether it's heavy metals or chemicals or molds or infections and then all of a sudden they get covid and all bets are off and they end up with fatigue or muscle pain or a number, you know, 200 different potential symptoms that they can have based on where the infection goes in the body. - Yeah. Yeah, I know that is something we have seen that most of the people when we talk to them who showed up with long Covid, there was things boiling quietly in the back. Yes.

And this, as you said, it's the straw that broke the camel's back, you know? So are there a particular tests that you're looking at as you look at these patients? - There are for a number of the causes. But in terms of long Covid, there aren't, I know that there's different inflammatory markers with some of the work of Bruce Patterson and such. But the thing is, is that more times than not, somebody knows if they have long covid, if you had some sort of cold that result that morphed into weird symptoms that have become persistent.

And this is since November 2019 whether or not you've actually had an official diagnosis of Covid or not. And when I say weird symptoms, it can be paying on the bottom of the feet, or it can be shortness of breath or it can be sweating. There's just so many different ones in addition to fatigue that it's highly likely that's the case. And so generally, people know when they have had covid or they've had some sort of viral illness. And since 2019 we have to take that into account and see whether that's the case.

Now with Covid, it's gonna be different than, you know. Oftentimes there's the post viral fatigue, whether it's from Epstein Barr or something else. But it seems like with Covid there are more symptoms and the symptoms are just weirder and we can definitely talk about why that's the case. -Yeah. Well, that would be a very interesting, interesting talk I think would be cover that. Why? Because that is, you know, basically, a typical usually means to me chronic inflammation, you know, and and that's what we're talking about.

We're talking about a, you know, like the post viral fatigue is a very common phenomenon that happens with many viruses and many people. But it's fatigue in a little malaise. And that flu like feeling. But that usually goes away and isn't accompanied by the whole slew of odd symptoms that people with long Covid seems to be

Testing, symptoms, and the four-step recovery process 8:12

happening seem to be having. So, what um, what what are the big clues and where do you start going with this? - So generally when we start, I have a four step process that I take people through and the first step is to determine all the causes that they have. So, you know, we've talked about, there's 39 potential causes. Everybody has a combination of 20 or more of those causes. Now, fortunately 75% of those causes can be determined by symptoms alone. You know, you went to conventional medical school, I went to conventional medical school. You know what I learned there?

That was actually correct. Was that 90% of diagnosis is history and symptoms. 10% is physical exam and labs. Right? So much of this can actually be determined by history and symptoms. If we're just listening and we're actually looking at those symptoms. So the first thing is to determine all of the causes that somebody has. Then the next step, even though this process is really all about the toxins that we want to remove out of the body. And step four, the next step really is to make the body stronger, more resilient, you know, have greater stamina.

And so that's to replace the deficiencies. Whether it's deficiencies and hormones like adrenals, thyroid sex hormones, mitochondria deficiencies in vitamins, minerals, deficiencies, and lifestyle habits. You know, not enough good food, not enough, good water, not enough, good sleep, not enough, good movement or neurotransmitter deficiencies. Those are all things that are not in the body that are supposed to be in the body. And so we want to replace those. And there's really nothing that gives people more of a boost in their energy and mood, etcetera and sleep is what I call the big three, which is replacing adrenals, thyroid and mitochondria, you know, which is responsible for 70 to 90% of all of the energy in the body.

So we boost step to um those deficiencies and then step three, we're opening up the drainage pathways, the liver, the kidneys, the lymph, the neuralink, the gallbladder and the intestines, so that the toxins in Step four actually have a place to go. The heavy metals, the chemicals, the molds, the infections, the covid, etcetera. So that when you try to grab one of those things and remove them out of the body, they actually have a place to go. So that's kind of where Step three comes into place and we find that that is a great process to take people through to get rid of their long covid.

- That's I said it's so funny. I said, I gave it, I gave a short talk this morning for a different group for rebel health and you know, you it was just interesting and it's always so self affirming when you hear, you know, people who develop similar processes and it's just so true. I mean like you have to, you know have to fix the deficiencies. People still say still are still sick, but they got their one leg up now they got they got a shot, you know, and opening opening those drainage pathways.

I mean toxicity seems to be the issue. And in my mind that's probably why we have so many chronically ill people. It's not the bugs, it's the toxicity and that is so and you have found You found that Covid you seem to think it feels a biofilm disrupter. What? - Yeah. So one of the things that we're looking so for those who don't know, a biofilm disrupter biofilm is this kind of this collagen, This material that exists on our mucous membranes where things hide underneath. It oftentimes infections and other toxins and infections will swap DNA with each other and create superbugs and and do all sorts of things that we don't want to talk about.

But what we're seeing is that sometimes um we can go directly at the covid and start to and remedy it because we do believe that Covid is a live active virus. When people have long Covid they have a live active virus in the body. But sometimes we're actually seeing where they're acting as a biofilm disrupter and they're letting other infections out where sometimes the pain on the bottom of the feet that somebody is experiencing and the cramping in the legs that they're experiencing is actually from Bart nella, it's not from Covid. And so if we're going after Covid and we're not having success. And then we start going after Bart in L.

A. And we're having success. Then we know that Covid was actually acting as a biofilm disrupter was breaking up the hiding places. The Barton ella was coming out and it was causing these symptoms. - Yeah no that's something we see often. As you get one bug you can then new symptoms will sometimes surface. The whole question of as we spoke about the question of whether there's covid you know whether it's competent, vital, whether it's competent to replicate or whether it's only pieces but at the end of the day it's cause inflammation.

I mean the persistence of the spike proteins is definitely an issue. And the other big area that a lot of people are talking about and it seems that you're interested in as well is the effect on coagulation and and blood clotting. You know and that's been a big issue. You know Dr. Pretorius has made a lot of it. How important do you do you feel This is? - I think it's incredibly important. So one of the ways that infections will travel around the body is by making the blood thicker and covid especially good at that forming a lot of micro clots.

I think that there's a lot of awareness that's now being brought to M. E. C. F. S. Or chronic fatigue and some of these other chronic um states of inflammation that there is hyper coagulation in all of it and that we're finding that people who are hyper coagulated. You know they're more likely to have heart attacks, Heart disease, stroke, Alzheimer's and so it's just really important to we use natural anticoagulants in order to be able to decrease the ability for the infections to get around the body as well as to improve the oxygenation, you know, Because if you've got thick blood, you can just picture how stagnant that is and how you're not gonna be able to exchange the nutrients the way you, the way you want to to get rid of the toxins and the waste and to get oxygen where it's supposed to. - Yeah. I know hyper coagulation has been,

Biofilms, infections, and coagulation issues 14:20

you know, and I'm really glad to see it's coming back up again. It was a big thing about 18 years ago. And Dr. Berg, DavidBerg did a lot with hyper coagulation and then, you know, it's like so many great ideas, the problem we have is that we don't have I don't know, it's that in the world we treat the people with chronic complex illnesses what works wonderful for one person doesn't do much for the other, or sometimes it's just not using it in the right order. And so many good things because they're not home runs, they don't make people all better, they only give them part of the way they get lost.

You know, they don't get used enough and one of the I think one of the benefits. One of the many benefits I think of this terrible illness is that we're going to get a lot more research and a lot more work in how to improve the blood flow, especially the micro circulation. You know, I mean that's yeah, because in your world, when you're doing the work with detox, you keep saying that's probably one of the key points and key points. So, you know, so when, when you look at, I mean, you have a lot of patients, I would imagine you have, do you have any good sense of like why some of them never got long Covid and some of them have, I mean, it's just one of the things that, that a lot of the doctors that I've talked to split, that I speak to have seen that their own patients, even though they were fairly ill, didn't wind up with long Covid.

- Yeah. And I think that it has to do with the number of toxins that are present. You know, when you have heavy metals, chemicals, molds and maybe another infection, they're the in the immune system is often left field, the immune system has been hijacked by those things and then consequently the Covid can come into the body and it can wreak havoc, you know, and so and go wherever it wants to go. You know, you have to have a somewhat intact immune system in order to get rid of any infection. And Covid is really no different. And so the more toxins that you have unfortunately, or the more um the more that you push yourself when you're sick or until you've recovered, because we're seeing a lot of this, you know, in teenagers or in kids or in people who are highly athletic where they are, they're exercising and they go back to it too soon.

Then unfortunately that ends up taxing their mitochondria and it causes, it seems like it causes the infection to go deeper into the body and to persist and increase the number of symptoms that people end up experiencing. - Yeah, that is something that, that many people are talking about. They need to really be careful when, as you return to your activities of life, you know, don't overdo you know, in the old days, you know, people would say, oh, you're just taxing your adrenals, but clearly it's much more than that.

You know, you have any other other ideas about, about why people have to be careful with with return to exercise. I mean, I'm just trying to you, I think you kind of, you kind of put put at it, but I'm thinking about the hyper coagulation issue if that plays a big role in that, I would love to know your ideas about that. - Yeah, I definitely think that it does, you know, if you're, if you're gonna push yourself and your hyper coagulated and your blood is thick and you're not exchanging your oxygen and you're going to go and train for a marathon.

Like I've heard so many stories about people who are training for marathons and then they get covid and they go back too soon and then all bets are off now. Some of it may have to do with the fact that if they are runners or if they are exercising, they've got increase musculature around the heart perhaps, you know, their their oxygenation needs to be working at a certain level and then they get hyper coagulated and they're not able to do. So I think that some of it has to do with the damage that's done to the mitochondria that you're asking a lot of your mitochondria and then if the virus gets in then the virus can cause more damage to the mitochondria.

When you're asking more of the mitochondria. So those are just a couple of the theories based off of the research that I've read and the extrapolations in clinical practice. - Okay. But thank you know that's to me is always what's so exciting is when you know, you know you can buy you know exploring the research and being a clinician, you really you know you notice things I think that is just so important. So so important. So are there, you know as far as you know, your general steps are there particular supplements and things that you have found that people can start with, it's just a way to get to begin their process that you find most helpful.

- Absolutely. So you know the when I talked about the Big three, well I would say you know first thing is lifestyle habits, you know obviously start drinking more water, eating more good food etcetera. But the supplements that I find to be most helpful are adrenal for adrenal support, mitochondrial support, thyroid support. Those are Those are the ones that you know that's why I call that the big three is because they make the most amount of difference at least initially to people takes their energy at least up a point or so.

Their energy is like a five out of 10. It takes it up to about a six out of 10 so that then they have the strength to go through the rest of the process. And if you want some specific brands, I'm happy to share those with you. - Oh sure you just throw out a few things that you have found to be helpful. I think that's you know one of the things I'm hoping that people can take away from our series is some two DUIs And so if you've got some good ones, I'd love to hear them. - Yeah. So my favorite adrenal product is adrenal PX by restorative formulations.

And my favorite mitochondrial product is B. C. A. T. P. By cell core and their um uh C. T. Minerals. And that's a really nice combination. And then when we start to look at and we always do it in the order of replacing the adrenals

Why some people develop Long COVID and exercise caution 20:38

and then the mitochondria and then the thyroid because oftentimes you can improve thyroid and thyroid function by doing the other two. And so you don't want to take thyroid support first and then do adrenals and then do mitochondria because consequently you may get hyper thyroid and then you have to decrease off the thyroid you've just started. But so we'll take then I do like the pure encapsulation is thyroid support complex for making the thyroid work better. And then I'll use different glandular which are ground up beef thyroid and ramp up on that to get people to an ideal dose of thyroid because everything works better when adrenals, mitochondria and thyroid are optimized.

- Yes. Yeah the happy happy glands, they do help and and as far as the hyper coagulation, is there any what's your favorites there? - Yeah. I'm mainly using not so kindness these days. The one by allergy research group and so generally 100 mg, 1 to 2 times a day. There are some other bigger players, you know Lambro canes beluga stuff like that that I will use in certain circumstances based off of some labs but generally the tokens works really well. - Good place to start. It definitely is. Okay.

And are you ever concerned about you know further biofilm disruption when you start these supplements with people or. - Oh yeah absolutely yeah so with says you know that's also going to disrupt biofilm and so you know potentially it can release some of the other infections that are present. And so you do want to make sure that you've got binders on board so that if you are starting to to release some of these infections that you've got something to do you want to make sure you've got a mentor in your back pocket so that you can ask questions. And this is what I call the whack a mole when when other infections start popping up and you start to uh have to address them because sometimes you gotta put a little bit on bart in L. A.

And then you start sweating a whole bunch. You got to put a little bit on bobby CIA and then in addition to what you're doing for the covid. - that makes it yeah I think that is why physicians are still useful because it's just interpreting all these symptoms can be very difficult when you're when you know when it's just your body and it's the first time you walk down this path because it is confusing and as you said it's the testing is informative but it's the history that really tells us what's going on.

You know it's it's one of the one of the biggest the biggest problems we have with with conventional doctors is that they're looking for the black and white test, you know? And so at this point um so when you when you see a long haul patient, so you really it's any particular diet or is it really more tail to the individual or you have some over, you know like some basic rules. - I do have some basic rules. There's definitely some some benefit to intermittent fasting. Though fasting can definitely be stressful on the body, so it really depends on how well they're able to tolerate if they feel worse on intermittent fasting. And for those who aren't familiar, it basically means skipping a meal and trying to eat two meals in a five or six hour window.

And so usually that means that people will eat lunch at noon and then they'll eat dinner at 5-6. So that can definitely be helpful. And then in terms of food, a paleo diet or even leaning more into a keto where your low to no sugars, grains, you're focused largely on vegetables, meat, a little bit of fruit, but you know the less sugar and grains you consume, the better off you're going to be - That during during the healing process. Yeah the the sugar is a difficult and for so many people that is their instant source of energy and I guess that's why it's really important that you go through your, as you say, your adrenal mitochondria, thyroid so they can begin to have a little bit of real energy and not need the sugar. Yeah, I just want people to understand that.

That's often a sign that your mitochondria are asleep at the switch when you really need sugar to function. Just that makes that does help through the day. You know, it's I worry more caffeine doesn't bother me as much as the sugar. I just really feel that the sugar because it's the way it feeds the wrong bugs in the system is the problem. But understanding that so many people with chronic illness, their body's ability to metabolize fat and protein is not working well.

Supplements, diet, and practical treatment strategies 25:48

And so they get stuck with feeling like they're depend Ending on the sugar buzz, you know? So at this point, you know, how are you, what are your responses, I mean, how quickly are you finding patients responding to the to your program? - So it really depends on how long they've been ill, the longer they've been ill, the longer it takes them to get better. But, you know, all of our programs are 12 months. So much of this is about expectations. You know, if they have heavy metals, chemicals, molds and a couple of infections including covid in their body, you know, it's gonna take a while, you know, it's gonna take at least a year to get people better. So making sure that people understand what the expectations are understanding that it's a marathon, this is not a sprint, understanding that it's going to take a half an hour to an hour a day of self care.

You know that maybe taking supplements or it might be using the sauna or it might be taking an epson salt bath or it might be doing a mindset practice or it might be meditating, you know, so we include all the mind, the body and the emotions in our program in order to be able to go through this process successfully. But unfortunately it's taking longer than I think everybody anticipated. - Yeah that is I think you kind of nailed it you know is that if this was just the regular post viral fatigue and hung around a little while longer than usual and you saw someone within that first year you could probably get them better in a few months. But because this is different, you know, this is not the usual post viral fatigue covid and our response to the spike protein seems to really change a lot of physiology and that makes the rebuilding process a lot harder. And I think it's important that people understand that you know the magic bullets that are out there, they may help but they the healing process still is going to take time.

You know, it's not gonna be it's not gonna be a straightforward. - Yeah. Well I was just gonna I was just gonna say that you know it doesn't mean that people aren't improving along the way but generally it's much like the the M. E. C. F. S. Picture where people are experiencing, you know like the first month that they're with us, they have, or the second month they have like you know, six bad days and one good day and then the next month they've got five bad days and two good days, right? And so it kind of continues on like that where there are days where you feel like oh my gosh I'm not making any progress and then there are days where the lights are on, where you're like, oh things are much different now right?

So once again it comes back to mindset to understand what's actually happening, be grateful for the journey even though it's incredibly difficult seeing what the journey has to offer you. You know, if there is trauma working on that so that it's an opportunity to heal on a number of different levels if you actually have the patience for it. - Yeah. Yeah. That I was I was speaking to I think Oz Garcia the other day and you know what what I was complaining about was that most of the people who write about bio hacking our athletes and there are people who are really willing to, you know, put four hours a day into X and an hour a day into y and, you know, and show up to the gym every day. And I sometimes, you know I'm impressed by those folks, but I would say like then there's people who are, you know, more like me. My question is, when's lunch and when you're sick, that's really difficult. Okay, Because the healing journey is not for the weak. Unfortunately, you know, just when you're feeling weakest is when you have to find the most inner strength and, and that's what's so exciting about it. Sounds like your program is how you're adding that you're really sounds like you're bringing that in right in the beginning of mindset and anything in particular that you, you know, sources or books or programs that you use or is it your own that you work with?

- Well, I've cultivated, Yeah, I've cultivated from a number of different places. We have a four step process where the first step is gratitude. So, you know, just three gratitude today and it can be on anything can be the same thing every single day, but that has been shown in research studies to be incredibly helpful, not just for anxiety and depression, but also for chronic illness. And then the next step is to have a vision for your life, you know, what is your ideal day look like and being able to hold that for what you want, want your life to look like from a personal professional perspective, and then there's looking at any sort of limiting beliefs that you have, you know, I'm never gonna get better, um not enough, I'm too old to do this or whatever it is, flipping it into empowering beliefs, knowing that life is always working out for you, that all you need to do is take a step every single day in order to be successful.

And then the last step in this process is asking yourself empowering questions as opposed to disempowering ones. Oftentimes people are asking themselves why is this happening to me? And guess what if you ask yourself a disempowering question, you're going to get an answer that you're not gonna wanna hear, Yeah, because you're blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, your brain is going to tell you when in reality, if you ask yourself, how can I love myself more today, or what can I do today to move myself forward in my health a little bit more, right? So much of this is understanding that as humans, we overestimate the amount we can get done in a day and we underestimate the

Mindset, healing expectations, and closing resources 31:28

amount that we can get done in a year, okay, you know, but a journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step and if you take a step you take action even though it's a little bit every single day at the end of the year, you're going to look back and you're gonna be amazed at what you accomplished. But if you just sit on your haunches, you don't take action, guess what a year is going to have gone by and you're gonna be in the same exact place. - That is excellent, thank you because I mean that you know, those words, they, you know, I hear them, they sound so simple, but they are so profoundly helpful and move people.

You know, I'm and you strung them together so, so beautifully. I just think people should listen to that again a few times because it it's, you know, it's getting rid of the idea that you have to climb the mountain today. Like you said that because it is a mountain when, I mean, I have to admit that all it takes for me is is a cold and I, or just, you know, a belly ache and I go, oh my God, how do my patients actually get up and function it every day? You know, it's the strength that people with chronic illness have or finding themselves is really always amazing to me, you know, to just see, you know, despite how, how you feel.

- And that was, that was my story, You know, like when I, when I came out out of my chronic fatigue so much of it was the emotional work that I did, The mental work that I did. Yes, I removed a bunch of toxins out of my body, but I never wanted to go into the mental and emotional stuff that just scared me. But the reality is that I had to in order to be successful. - Yeah, that's I think that is also an important message for patients that so many times when doctors trying to convey the importance of your own belief systems and moods, people hear it as being told that it's their fault or that it's how they think that Gotham there. No, but how you think will help get you out of there, you know, it's not necessarily the cause because I say, you know, I've never found anxiety to cause an illness but it will make any illness a whole lot worse. - Yeah, so thank you for bringing up the importance of that because we, you know, all the all the medicines and supplements and body work in the world pale in what can happen when you can engage your will and some level I think that is the nobody wants to be told when they're sick that it's a gift. I mean, believe me, I don't want that. I totally, I don't say that lightly but that if there is one in there, okay as you're picking up the shreds of your life after you've been ill is the fact that you can, that you have gone through a process that has had to make you stronger - When I think that's the only way to look at it.

You know like whether it's, you know, I mean everybody has struggles and you can either resist them and you can hate them or you can see them as okay. Well what am I here to learn from this? Right? I mean this sucks, but what can I learn? And I believe that I mean that really helped me in my journey and I see that that's helped a lot of people out there and so people maybe I don't want to do that, just try it on, you know, see how it feels, see if it works for you. - It's such a pleasure to talk to you. And I really feel you know it's just so nice to know that you would be available to so many people you know that you you figured out how to spread yourself out without spreading too thin and and your wisdom, you know, you've done a lot of good work. So I recommend you most of this is in your fix your fatigue book or a lot of it's in there. - The book is five years old, so it doesn't have anything on covid in there. But no all of its in our programs online. I've got lots of youtube videos.

Our website is energymdmethod.com and if people click on the bottom right hand corner, it says, hey, you want to text with me? You can actually text directly with me and we can have a conversation, get on a free call to see if we're a good fit to work together. - Yeah, well I think that sounds like a very good idea. You know, it's really been been a pleasure. I just so much fun to talk to somebody who has such a breadth of knowledge and wisdom um in this field and it's really, it's and bringing it over to Covid because Covid is just an extension of those same illnesses with a twist that spike protein has done something that I don't think any of us quite yet understand. - Thank you.

Eric, thanks for having me on. - Okay, A pleasure. Thank you for being with us.