Recover Your Energy & Clarity After Cancer

Terry Wahls, MD

Wow! That’s a story. It just happens, when you’ve been transformed. You can’t see the world in the same way anymore.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

No, you can’t. It is a bell that you can’t unring but you can’t ring it for anyone else. And I have learned that that was the main thing that I learned that day. I get it that not everyone wants to do the work. There are plenty of people who just want the pill, who just want the knife, who just want the drug. It’s not one or the other. For the vast majority of the time, it’s hope.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes, the vast majority.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. But you have to be willing to do your side of it, and I decided that day that I didn’t want to work with people who didn’t want to do their side of it. I didn’t want it to be all on me. I did not do your story justice. I just want to give you a background as to who and what you are to me because, as far as I’m concerned, you inspired me to completely change my life and, as a result, change the lives of millions of women with breast cancer.

Terry Wahls, MD

Now, I’ve ruined a lot of doctors’ lives that way who are conventional doctors in their conventional systems and universities, and they can’t do it that way anymore. Then they have to find their new way. For some, they’re able to do both. For years, I was able to do both conventional medicine at our City VA Hospital and the University of Iowa Hospitals. then eventually I had to quit my clinical practices in both those institutions because I couldn’t do that anymore. I just did research and did my private practice because I could no longer operate in those systems.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Well, I get it, as you well know, but I would love for people to know that because people are primarily here to learn about breast cancer and what their options are to improve their lives. But I want to take them back so that they understand your journey because ultimately, we are talking about things that people think are irreversible.

Terry Wahls, MD

I believed that at the time.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

As far as the world was concerned, your M.S. was irreversible.

Terry Wahls, MD

All of my neurology physicians taught me, and my teaching was that once you converted to secondary progressive illness, M.S., disability as it accrued would never reverse. So at my worst, I’m going to tell you a story in real time. Does it take that long? In 2000

Jennifer Simmons, MD

No, I would love it.

Terry Wahls, MD

I developed a weakness in my left leg. I go see my neurologist, who says, “Terry, this could be bad or very bad.” I go through the workup the next couple of weeks, and I’m thinking about the fact that I’ve already had 20 years of worsening electrical face pain, and my dad’s third-year history of terrible neurologic problems. I know I have a progressive disease, and I would rather die than become disabled. I am praying secretly for a fatal diagnosis. I had multiple sclerosis. I do my research. I find the best M.S. center in the United States, see them, see their best physician, and take the newest drugs. Three years later, I’m in a reclined wheelchair because I’ve relentlessly been getting worse. My trigeminal neuralgia is relentlessly worse. My ten-year-old daughter hugs me. It’s just tears streaming down my face. I take mitoxantrone and then Tysabri; nothing helps. I’m relentlessly worse. I go to PubMed, and I begin reading the basic science, and I start experimenting on myself. I decided mitochondria are the driver of disability, and I created a supplement cocktail for my mitochondria. My disability slows. I’m very grateful I discovered a study using electrical stimulation of muscles. I asked my physical therapist, Could I try that? He calls it E-stim and says it’s for athletes. It gives me a test session. It hurts like hell, by the way. It’s very painful. But when it’s over, I feel great. We say it’s because of the endorphins, and we add the E-stim to my physical therapy. I discovered that, at the same time, the Institute for Functional Medicine has a course on neuroprotection. I took that, and I learned more basic science. I have a longer list of mitochondrial supplements, and I add them. Then I have an AHA. I’m quite embarrassed by how long it took me to have this. Aha. Because I’d already adopted a paleo diet five years earlier, they’re already grain-free, legume-free, and dairy-free.

Wow. That’s a story.  it does happen when you’ve been transformed. You can’t see the world the same way anymore.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

When did you start to make those dietary changes?

Terry Wahls, MD

I started making dietary changes in 2000. In 2003, I’m in a reclined wheelchair. I’m continuing to go downhill, but at least I’m doing something. I had supplements in 2004. I had electrical stimulation in 2007. At my worst, I am so weak that I cannot sit up. I can sit up for only ten minutes; any longer than that, I just can’t function for about 48 hours.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

You’re living in a zero-gravity wheelchair?

Terry Wahls, MD

Zero-gravity chair. I have one for my office and one at home. I’m in a reclined wheelchair. I can take a few steps with two walking sticks. I’m beginning to have brain fog. My Chief of Staff assigned me to the Traumatic Brain Injury Clinic. I’m going to start there in January because he’s trying to force my hand into medical retirement. He describes a job. I know there’s no way in hell I can do that job. I’m very upset about that. But what are you going to do? I just told my wife that. Okay, we’ll go in January. I can do it or I can’t, and I probably can’t. I’ll have to apply for a medical disability. Two weeks later, I discovered the article and the research study using E-Stim. I added the E-Stim at the same time, but I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine. I take their course on neuroprotection, which is pretty tough because there’s a lot of biochemistry in that, and I’m beginning to have brain fog. I had to work through that.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That course is tough for a sharp mind.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes, that was tough. But as for regular supplements, I add them. And then I have a big aha. What if I redesign my paleo diet based on this list of supplements? Because, after all, food is much more complicated. I’m probably going to get more things that are good for my brain and my mitochondria. I do that, and I started this new way of eating on December 26, 2007. At that time, I can take just a few steps. I cannot sit up in a regular chair like I am now. I began to have brain fog. My trigeminal neuralgia is much more severe and much more difficult to turn off. So I realize that I’m likely going to become bedridden by my illness and demented by it. It was clear that I was on track to have my trigeminal neuralgia turned permanently on; even the high dose of Solu-Medrol would not turn it off. When that’s on, sound triggers this intense electrical pain. A breeze triggers electrical pain. Speaking triggers the pain. Chewing triggers the pain. Swallowing triggers the pain. I had rewritten my medical power of attorney in my living will, such that if I quit speaking and talking, there’d be no IV fluids, no feeding tubes, because once the pain turns on, if I see me like that, I tried to talk; you could just get that, I just couldn’t say it. There was a pretty grim future, and yet I redesigned my paleo diet. In January, I went to the traumatic brain injury clinic. For the first two weeks, I just watched. The third week in January, I have to start seeing patients, and on Monday, I have to get up and do my exam, sit back down, write my notes for the next exam, and I come home that night and Jackie asks, “How did it go?” Well, I guess it wasn’t too bad. On Friday after, when I had done four clinics, I was like, “I think I can do this.” My physical therapist says, “Terry, you’re getting stronger. I’m going to advance your exercises.” Then, at the end of January, I told Jackie, “I want to try. Can we bring the usual chair? I want to sit in a regular chair for supper,” and instead of sitting in my zero-gravity chair, I sit in a regular chair for supper with my family. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

it’s like three weeks.

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, four. In four weeks, I’ll be strong enough. I can sit up again, at least for supper. Then, in February, I decided to start walking a little bit in the hallways of my hospital with my walking sticks. People are like, “Oh, my God, Dr. Wahls, you’re walking. Are you on that new drug, Tysabri?” I go, “No, no, no, that didn’t work for me.” It’s just what I’m doing. I showed them my E-Stim device. And then I’m walking everywhere in the hospital without my wheelchair, and then I’m walking with one walking stick and then no walking sticks. And then I’m walking around the block first with my two walking sticks because that’s a longer walk. then you go down to one, and then yes, and then on Mother’s Day, we have an emergency family meeting because I want to try riding my bike, which I’ve not had in six years. Jackie tells my 16-year-old boy, Zach, who’s six feet five, that you run alongside the left. She tells my 13-year-old daughter Zab, you run alongside the right; it’s your father. And I bike around my block. That big 16-year-old boy, he’s crying. The 13-year-old girl’s crying, Jackie’s crying, and I cry, reliving that moment, because that was when I understood that the current understanding of secondary progressive M.S. is incomplete, and who knows how much recovery might be possible. After that, every day, I bike a little bit more. I’m doing my physical therapy. In October, Jackie says, Let’s sign you up for the courage ride. It’s 18.5 miles long. So we do; it’s longer than I’ve ridden so far. When I finish that run across the finish line, I’m crying again. My kids are crying, Jackie’s crying, and I’m crying. This fundamentally changes how we think about disease and health. It will change the way we practice medicine. It changes the focus of my clinical research. So I’ve made it my mission to teach people with M.S. and other complex chronic diseases, there’s a whole lot you can do that can change your disease course.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It’s a chilling, amazing story. I have a couple of questions. The first is, why no grains?

Terry Wahls, MD

Okay. If we look at our evolutionary history, which spans billions of years, from single-celled organisms to multicellular animals to mammals to primates, and then we separated from primates about 6 million years ago, and we separated into our Homo sapiens, homo genus, 2 million years ago, and our species, Homo sapiens, 250,000 years ago, for most of the evolutionary history that we separated from primates, we were eating greens, a fair amount of dirt, some tubers, and gradually more meat products. Only 10,000 years ago, however, we’d been eating grains. Only for the past three years have we been eating sugar in white flour. That’s a new food that contains microbiomes that we’re not used to. I posit that our health has completely gone off the rails since we, particularly in the last hundred years, added all these processed grains. We have a much stronger evolutionary history than eating grains. Furthermore, if you just remove the grains and processed foods and eat more vegetables and meat, you’ll be in much better shape.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. I am a huge proponent of grain-free living, and it’s like the first question I get all the time. I was just curious to hear your explanation. Mine is very similar, mostly in that grains are the seeds of grass, and we are not grass eaters. Yes, we just do not have the digestive tract that’s capable of extracting the nutrients out of them and dealing with them.

Terry Wahls, MD

Furthermore, even the horses and cows aren’t well equipped to eat the seeds either. They do well on the grass themselves. But as soon as you start feeding them a lot of grain, you get metabolic health problems for the cattle and the horses. So grass-fed, eating greens—maybe the green leaves might be okay. But for some of us, the antigens, even in the grasses, are a problem. I recommend these radical things, known as vegetables.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I know that before your diagnosis, I knew that you had been a vegetarian for 20 years. Yes. Talk to me about what primarily changed in your diet when you made this shift.

Terry Wahls, MD

Well,  at that time, I was eating a lot of whole wheat bread, and I had a lot of beans and rice and a lot of vegetables. we would consider that to be a very heart-healthy, great diet. For some people, it will be.  I certainly understand that there are people who are vegetarian or vegan for their spiritual beliefs.  so I’ve created dietary plans Well, at that time, I was eating a lot of whole wheat bread, and I had a lot of beans and rice and a lot of vegetables. We would consider that to be a very heart-healthy, great diet. For some people, it will be. I understand that there are people who are vegetarians or vegans because of their spiritual beliefs. so I’ve created dietary plans for them. But for me, gluten was a big problem. If I have any gluten-containing grains, it will turn on my trigeminal neuralgia in about six hours, and I will go from being fine to having incapacitating levels of pain in about four hours. I always carry enzymes. If I’m away from home, I eat digestive enzymes and also carry prednisone. If the pain starts, I’ll escalate my dose of gabapentin, and I’ll start taking prednisone. I have to do that about once a year. But for me, the gluten was a big problem I have. If I have any gluten-containing grain, it will turn on my traditional neuralgia in about 6 hours, and I will go from being fine to having incapacitating levels of pain, of pain and about 4 hours. Wow.  I always carry enzymes. if I’m away from home, I digestive enzymes and also carry a pregnant zone. if the pain starts, I’ll, I’ll escalate my dose of gabapentin and I’ll start taking practice. I have to do that about once a year.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

While we’re on that topic, and I do think that there are a lot of people with gluten sensitivity, did you have any indication before you started to make these changes that you had gluten sensitivity?

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, in retrospect, I had thickened skin over my elbow, so I had some mild psoriasis. I certainly had a history of migraine headaches as a child; I had reactive airways in exercise-induced asthma. I was beginning to have to take prednisone first for prismatic flares. I have a home nebulizer with prismatic flares. Now, mind you, since adopting a gluten-free diet and creating the Wahls Protocol, my skin is fine. There’s no more thickened skin on my elbows. I haven’t used my nebulizer in about 15 years now. I don’t have migraines anymore. Those were all clues that I didn’t know. and I’m a physician, and my primary care doctor, my neurologist, didn’t know to say this was a factor.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Being a physician and a fellow physician, we’re simply not taught this. We don’t know, and we’re not taught. I think the MD system is a little better than the dose system. But in the MD system, we’re raised with this bias of thinking that if it’s not taught to us, it’s neither important nor true. We operate with that mindset throughout our careers. until something like this happens, which opens our eyes to other possibilities.

Terry Wahls, MD

We learn a lot, and new ideas don’t come easily to us. We may have to get exposed to that new idea multiple times until we finally accept it. then if we happen to have the opportunity to have our health transformation, that speeds up the learning and the willingness to say, Maybe there is another way.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes, agree. I know in the beginning you were trying all the drugs out there, and we talked about this journey, this healing journey. For most people, it’s not an either-or; it’s an and. Correct. What are the patterns that you’re following? Why are there so many traditional treatments? Do you still have to incorporate it, or do you not have any more that you did?

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, I walked into my neurologist’s office nine months into my healing. He was stunned to see me. I said I’d like to taper and get off it. I was on cell sleep at the time, and he said, Yes, that makes sense. You’re at that time. I’m 52, so he tapered, and I was off the cells about four weeks later, I  still get surveillance MRI sleep and are beautiful ever since I still have a very young working brain and I’ve not been on any disease-modifying drugs. I’ve tried it off my gabapentin. I cannot get a lower dose, but if I try to relieve my facial pain, it turns on, probably because I have some residual scars on my trigeminal nucleus.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I think that was probably the first symptom that you had. You had that for 20 years.

Terry Wahls, MD

But in retrospect, that was the first symptom.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes.

Terry Wahls, MD

Now the interesting thing is that I’ve had difficulty with optic neuritis; I have difficulty with low-contrast vision. Skiing or hiking in the snow is very hard. Driving at night is very hard. What I’ve noticed is that, over time, my low-contrast vision is improving, so I do better in snow. I do better driving at night. My neuro-ophthalmologist says, “Well, your optic nerves are continuing to improve.” They’re very pleased with that as well.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

They feel about your recovery because, well, I think, especially in the cancer world, medical oncologists are very uncomfortable with people who get better without them.

Terry Wahls, MD

I was condemned by the MS specialties for years as a speaker, so I’d go speak where I was invited. I did my clinical trials. I got them published first in low-impact journals, then in higher-impact journals, and then in higher-impact journals. then I did my TEDx Talk and wrote my books. The M.S. Society saw that their constituents because they monitor social media, were talking about the Wahls Protocol and the Wahls Diet. They held a wellness conference and invited me. They had told me, they were paying as their speaker, which they did. as a result.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Is only fair.

Terry Wahls, MD

It’s only fair. They did agree to make wellness a research priority and started funding little pilot studies in diet. They funded my study comparing the low-fat Swank diet to the modified Paleo diet, which we published in 21. So we now have like 26 peer-reviewed scientific papers about M.S. and almost 50 peer-reviewed papers in PubMed. Now I am being recognized as an important player in the diet in the M.S. research world. Last week I was at the Consortium AMA Centers, which has 2000 scientists, physicians, nurses, and other health professionals that take care of M.S. patients there. In lecture after lecture, we were talking about the molecular biology of the processes for M.S. The pictures were saying that diet does matter. We got to help people improve their diet, and people were citing our research, and they thought it was so remarkable. I was walking around, and the neurologist stopped me to ask some questions, like, You are talking to us? Yes. So we had a little conversation, and then they whipped out their phones and said, “Would you be okay if I, if we got a fad by a nurse, took a picture of you and me? because my patients would so love that? I’ve come from crazy and dangerous to brilliant and visionary. It took 15 years, though I think it’ll be another 15 years before this becomes the standard of care, but it will be the standard of care. That diet matters, and there are probably several diets that will work. It’s not just going to be just one diet. But the one terrible diet is the standard American diet. we’re all agreeing on that.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

The antidiabetic diet. They’re both partly dangerous. Yes. I’m still in a crazy and dangerous state.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes. It takes a long to get there.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It takes a lot longer to be there. Because I know that I’m on the right side of history. For now, I deal with people calling me a quack because I know that time will tell the truth.

Terry Wahls, MD

We just have to go where people want to hear a message. In my case, because I do research, okay, if I want to change the standard of care, we have to have peer-reviewed, published research. I started doing clinical trials; we did our first trial, and we had amazing results. It took me two years to find a journal that could publish it. Then, for the next one, it took me a year. So gradually, it gets easier and easier to publish our studies because we can cite our earlier studies and there are more people. There’s more understanding that if we’re going to improve health, we have to address diet, stress reduction, exercise, and improving sleep, and that rehabilitation is about doing all of those things, not just one.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

We started to talk about M.S. being a mitochondrial disease.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I am often quoted as saying that cancer is also a mitochondrial disease.

Terry Wahls, MD

Absolutely.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

The two have a tremendous amount in common. let’s let’s first establish for people what are mitochondria, what do you mean by mitochondrial disease? What causes mitochondrial disease?

Terry Wahls, MD

Mitochondria are ancient bacteria that were eaten up and engulfed by bigger bacteria about two and a half billion years ago. Because those mitochondria were more efficient at using oxygen, they were able to thrive in this new atmosphere. They had more oxygen. Over millions of years, they would develop multicellular organisms. Eventually, of course, we all rely on these mitochondria to generate the cellular energy that we use to run the biochemistry of life. If your mitochondria are not working well, the job assigned to them doesn’t work as well. If you have a brain, then your brain is not going to think as well. Your eyes won’t see as well. Your heart won’t work as well. We now know something called the Marburg effect: cancers are very good at burning sugar. Their mitochondria are not working very well. They are dependent on sugar metabolism. Because we changed our diet to have so much sugar, so much processed food, and high-glycemic-index foods with high blood sugars, that drives the development of cancer. If we’d had a diet that had more of a ketogenic diet and more fat-burning, people would have far less cancer. If we had a ketogenic diet while I was going through cancer treatment, I would have far fewer adverse events from the treatment, and my cancer cells would be far more vulnerable to the effects of chemotherapy or radiation therapy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That was established by Otto Warburg in 1932 or something like that. 

Terry Wahls, MD

Wonderful.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Why do you think it’s still not being readily adopted and discussed in cancer centers? There are sterile, there’s still a boost, and insurance is available at every cancer center in this country.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes, I think that’s fascinating. All new ideas meet enormous resistance. You have the innovators who are condemned. Then you may have a few early adopters and then late adopters, and you have to reach a tipping point. Fortunately, Otto’s never did. I understand that it’s very hard for all of us to accept new ideas. For example, if you have a romantic partner, it would be very hard for you to accept that your romantic partner no longer loves you or has cheated on you. You have to have a lot of evidence before you say, “Well, maybe there’s a problem.” You’d finally realize, “Oh, my goodness, there is a problem now. Oh, my goodness, this person is having an affair with someone else.” Science is like that. My understanding of medicine. I spent a long time building and accumulating, and it will take a lot of evidence for me to abandon that. To abandon it, we need to have the evidence built. Slowly, more centers are willing to use a ketogenic diet. I know here at the University of Iowa that radiation oncologists are finally using a ketogenic diet, and I’m very excited to see that.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That is after people have chemotherapy.

Terry Wahls, MD

They missed a huge opportunity. The doctor is the choice here. Doctor Longo does some brilliant work with his first American diet and putting people into a ketogenic state before the onset of their chemotherapy and radiation therapy, and the fact that he’s interested in this investigation makes me hopeful that our medical oncologists will begin to embrace this.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

His program at the University of Southern California is truly innovative, but it’s so simple, and yet it meets so much resistance. There’s so much strength in that: what you eat doesn’t matter.

Terry Wahls, MD

It is crazy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That’s not just me; I think the cardiologists recognize that what you eat matters, but then they don’t; on the other hand, they don’t know how to tell people what and how to eat.

Terry Wahls, MD

True.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Improve their physiology.

Terry Wahls, MD

What’re you doing? What I’m doing is so important. Teaching the public now that there’s more that’s under our control. I’m in a unique position to teach the public. I teach clinicians, and I do the clinical research and present our findings. I’m thinking of the consortium of M.S. centers. Five years ago, when I was there, our research poster was the only one talking about food. This year we had five research posters talking about food in an oral presentation, and we now have a three-hour symposium about diet at M.S. We are making changes. How this can be accelerated by teaching the public so they will demand it. The public says I am going to use diet and lifestyle as part of my treatment strategy. I am going to explore ketogenic diets and fasting strategies, and I’m looking for clinicians who will support me in that. That’s a very important piece of finding physicians, scientists, and researchers who will do the trials so we can get them in peer-reviewed public meetings. I added the manuscript so we can show up at the meetings because I’m sure there is an oncology equivalent to what I just went to for the M.S. world, and it’s a long process. I tell my medical students, my postdoc, and people who are in my lab that this is a 30-year process. I’m 15 years into it. For the first ten years, I was banned. There are all sorts of terrible things said about me and my family. People said that I faked my illness. I spent four years in a wheelchair, faking it like, “Oh my God.” I never had an M.S. My neurologist here at the University of Iowa said I’m so glad you went to all these M.S. centers. I can keep saying, “Look, I was not the one who diagnosed her. All these other people diagnosed her; I treated her. We treated her very aggressively.”

Jennifer Simmons, MD

A lot of the things that you did are similar, if not identical, to the work that I do with my cancer patients. Can you talk a little bit about why changing those same things led to the reversal of your M.S. that led to the reversal of cancer? What breast cancer does and M.S. have in common?

Terry Wahls, MD

It’s the dysfunction; the mitochondria are not working well. We have to improve mitochondrial bioenergetics so the mitochondria can generate energy more effectively. We have to improve the nutrition of the organism. That means vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, sufficient protein, and the correct mix of fats. You can do the chemistry of life. It means you have to have the right microbiome. I like to say you poop in logs, rocks, or snakes, put them in your pee, and you want to have, ideally, snakes that are not getting into your pants. So we talk about fiber and fermented foods to get at that. Just because life is a self-correcting chemistry that keeps all of our nutrients in the not-too-high, not-too-low range that is compatible with life. Most of our patients have broken bones. I have lacerations; I’ve skinned my knees. But in my DNA are the instructions to fix and repair all of that. In our DNA are the instructions to kill cancer cells and rebuild the damaged tissues. We have to have appropriate nutrition to let those instructions work. We have to rebalance our hormones to let those instructions work. We have to reduce our toxins to let those instructions work. If we do all of that, we discover that the autoimmune processes you have begin to unwind and reverse. Many people in my clinical practice do not have one autoimmune condition. They have several, and they have several autoimmune processes. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

And why is that?

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, that’s because our immune cells can either create too much oxidative stress or too much inflammation. At a certain level, that drives us down the autoimmune process, which will depend on genetics and lead to autoimmune diagnosis number one. then in five years, autoimmune diagnosis number two, and then another five years, autoimmune diagnosis number three.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

This is mostly because no one’s intervening on the cellular level.

Terry Wahls, MD

On the cellular level.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

We’re not doing anything to change the trajectory of the disease. Most of our traditional treatments aren’t aimed at correcting the imbalance.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes. the drugs that are developed for autoimmunity, and we’re getting very good at creating drugs that can interact with a particular receptor or a particular biochemical pathway. But life is a very complex, interconnected hub of biochemical processes. Drugs will never solve the problem. You have to address as many of the lifestyle factors as you can. Step by step, we can rebalance all of these biochemical pathways.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes, I couldn’t agree more. I know that when you search, there is an overall sentiment that autoimmune disease, which is a simplistic explanation, is an overt response of the immune system. I think it’s more about that in terms of our confused response.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes, I think that’s probably correct. Confused is better.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

But when we think about cancer or an underperforming immune system, in my experience, and I’ve treated thousands of women for breast cancer over my career, I think there’s a huge connection between autoimmune disease and breast cancer. I don’t know if you’ve had any experience with that or if you’ve seen it.

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, certainly there’s an overlap of dysregulated, autoimmune immune processes and oxidative stress that increase the risk of both. Yes, I think there’s considerable overlap.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. It’s mostly due to that same environmental trigger, or whatever it is for you. If it is not remediated, for lack of a better word, then that stimulus is going to be there. Just like you manifest the next autoimmune disease, you can also manifest the next thing, like cancer.

Terry Wahls, MD

If you treat cancer one successfully, you don’t get to the root causes. You’ll develop cancer two.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. 

Terry Wahls, MD

Then cancer three, and then cancer four.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

In the same way. In the beginning, we talked about the research that you’re working on. I would love for you to share what that is for those people who are in a situation where they have symptoms or a diagnosis of M.S. How can they participate with you?

Terry Wahls, MD

We’re comparing a ketogenic diet and a paleo diet to the usual diet for people with relapsing or remitting multiple sclerosis. We have followed you for two years. We’re very excited about this. We do expect all three groups to improve because we know the usual diet group is going to improve their diet at least somewhat as well. You come to Iowa at month zero, month three, and month 24, and we would love to have you. You can learn more about this at Terry Wahls dot com forward slash M.S. study. Again, that’s terrywahls.com/msstudy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. I’ll make sure that that gets in the notes so that people have that because the work that you’re doing, I don’t need to tell you, is so tremendously important. Is there anyone for whom you don’t think their health can be improved like that, or are there people?

Terry Wahls, MD

Only the dead people.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. no matter where you are on that M.S. spectrum.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes, absolutely. Work on improving your diet, and do it at a pace that you and your family can accommodate. If you’re open to being part of our clinical trial, we’d love to have you. Even if you do not relapse, you will be a mess. Go to that website and complete the screening survey so you can be part of our patient database because we have new studies that we will be writing for, and we will notify you when we have new clinical trials.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes, amazing. How hard is that diet to maintain?

Terry Wahls, MD

We work very hard to help people make this work for you and your family. Yes, for everyone, adopting a better diet takes some work. But we’ve been very successful with having people enrolled for a year. We’ve not had anyone drop out yet.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That’s amazing. Yes. same thing for the cancer world. I think that if you’re going to be healthy, you need to learn how to cook. You need to learn how to eat at home, and you need to learn how to eat real food. We’ve been so conditioned; we are like dying of a diet of convenience, and the truth is that once you adopt a whole-food diet, I don’t have to tell you this, like your life changes and you don’t want to go back to that. when you’ve been exposed to gluten. I know when I’ve been exposed to gluten. not only that, but processed foods; are not what our body was meant to consume, eat, or grow food. It’s because we’ve gotten away from the way that we’re supposed to live that we saw all of this disease development. It’s only continuing because we’re getting further and further away from our evolutionary origin. I just want to sum up what you said today, because there was so much good stuff, but this ultimately is about changing our environment. You can’t continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome. Changing that environment means dietary changes, movement, stress management, prioritizing sleep, and reducing. You do advocate for a paleo-healthy, fat-based, no-grain diet. We talked about how all new ideas meet enormous resistance, and you are about halfway through your course of changing the landscape of medicine. I’m so very grateful for that, knowing that there’s so much more that’s under your control than you understand. Change is a 30-year process, and the things that breast cancer and I have in common are that they’re both mitochondrial diseases. When you heal the mitochondria, you restore cellular function, and then you restore systemic function. You have to have a working God. I didn’t even realize that when I asked people to describe their poop. Frankly, we all need to just get comfortable talking about poop. Because it’s how we eliminate the vast majority of our toxins, we have to be comfortable talking about it. We have to be comfortable doing it. But I never knew where I got those rocks and snakes putting our pee from. Now I realize.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yes.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It looks like my time is up. But life is a self-correcting chemistry. I love that. Words to live by.

Terry Wahls, MD

That was wonderful. Thank you for this great interview.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Thank you so much for being here. You are my hero. I am so very grateful for you ruining my medical life. It’s just as you said; you didn’t ruin it. You made it.

Terry Wahls, MD

All right. Take care, my friend.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Thanks. Bye for now.