SIBO/IMO: Gut Condition Affecting Millions

Introduction and Shivan Sarnau2019s mission 0:00

For. Hey everyone. Welcome back to this episode of the Reversing Marcel Activation Syndrome and Histamine Intolerance Summit. I'm your co-host, doctor Tom Moorcroft, and I'm really so pleased that you're joining us today. And I am so stoked because I get to interview and bring to you Shivan Sarna, who is the author of healing Sibo, a TV host, a creator of Sibo, S.O.S Summits and Community, and a whole bunch of other sort of digestive health, gut microbiome summits and docu series. And what's really cool is that Shivan noticed that, chronic conditions weren't always being addressed properly.

So she created the Chronic condition research 501 C3 nonprofit so that she could research and did some of these underfunded medical conditions and really bring light to them. And this really came after a lifetime struggle with health issues, which I know we're going to dive into. And the part that jumps out at me when I look at her bio and talk to her is her personal mantra is S.O.S., save ourselves. And that's really what she's helped thousands of people do. And that's what we're going to talk about today.

And any time that I get to talk with someone who wants to help other people take full responsibility for their own health and also give them the tools with which to do it, I'm stoked. So Shavon, thanks for joining us today. Thank you very, very much. I'm glad we're getting word out about Marcus. So important it is. So when I hear your name, I think about Sibo and other things similar to that. But how did that all start? Like one of the things I'm so interested in is what your personal what brought you here from your personal life.

And I love your cute kitty cat in the background too. I got one of those over here. That's the tune. Yeah. We'll see what happens if she eats the fake orchid or not, and then has a marcel activation problem. Anyway, I will not let that happen. So quickly with, hopefully a little bit of an inspirational twist to my story to help somebody else is that I went to India when I was five with my parents, and I got food poisoning, and I was never really like the same afterwards and wasn't quite right and wasn't going to the bathroom every day.

And my father, who's the Indian, noticed. And sure enough, I basically from that food poisoning episode, and then another one when I went on a, field trip in, upstate New York, and we milk cows and we snuck a sip of the unpasteurized milk and all the little kids got really sick. Yeah, I just I had a lot of food poisoning. And food poisoning is the number one underlying cause of IBS. And this is shown by doctor Mark Pimentel at Cedars-Sinai mast program. He has been working on a blood test and actually has produced a blood test for IBS called IBS Smart Test, which shows that you have, antibodies from that food poisoning that is hurting your migrating motor complex, M.C, which is the sweeping motion of the small intestine.

And what happens is, is that bacteria and methanogens, which are similar to bacteria, can overgrow in the small intestine

Personal health struggles and the origin of SIBO 3:00

and therefore produce gas of either methane, hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide, which leads to Sibo or intestinal antigen overgrowth. IMO. And they hear the symptoms bloating, bloating, more bloating because all those little microbes are farting out those gases I just described, leading to, what, bloating and then also constipation or diarrhea, alternating constipation or diarrhea. So one or the other or mixed. So basically I got food poisoning, I got Sibo, IBS, didn't treat it or know about it or do anything about it until I was a grown adult, a very much an adult, like as in back in 2016, I finally went with my first gastroenterologist because it was also in a moldy building.

I also had an Old Lyme old boy made it blossom and this gastroenterologist told me to run three miles. We lovingly call him in my book Healing Doctor Run three miles. And he gave me a, you know, antidepressant, which really he was trying to, like, help my neurotransmitters and my gut move, but he didn't explain that to me, so I just left thinking he thought I was nuts. Nothing wrong with that. But he wasn't a good communicator, as many gastroenterologists aren't, but some are. So bottom line is, I was I had this condition.

I went through life, I went through college, I went through my first careers. I was in a moldy building for 20 years. It made it worse and it forced me to finally deal with it. Otherwise it had been fairly manageable. And, when the mold sort of filled the bucket and overflowed, I just, I was really, really sick. I was losing my hair. I could barely get out of bed. I had such brain fog. I was stuttering, which is a fricking nightmare if you're a TV host. I'll tell you that right now. Pretty significant, right?

Yeah. My psoriasis went crazy, bla bla bla. So, that's a little bit of my story. And what I said to the universe was, okay, this is stupid. I have some time on my hands. I have good insurance, I have a brain and I have a computer. So let's figure this out. I went to a doctor. Google couldn't find answers, did find out about the low Fodmap diet which will briefly touch on and just really fell down a lot of rabbit holes. And I was like, still saying this is stupid because I'm not finding people who know about it.

And then I was like, okay, you know what? Whatever I find out, I'm going to tell other people, which is like how these things happen. And I met doctor Alisson Becker, who now we are colleagues and friends and also content creators together. And she is truly a Sibo specialist. And she introduced me to her colleagues, and I was really consuming a lot of summit material at that time, when summits weren't as like big and available. And I said, I need to write a book about this. And then I was like, wait a minute, I'm a talker.

I'm a TV lady. I want to do a summit because, like, I can do that because writing a book is actually really hard. And so I asked her if she, she was the first person to do an interview. I was so nervous, so cool, that she was like, not only will I do an interview with you, I will help you. I will introduce you to my colleagues. And that's how, you know, ten summers ago it started and, it's been beautiful because I did find people who knew what they were talking about. And I have been able to get their information out to millions of people around the world.

And that's very exciting. And also, I have improved so much. Depending on your underlying cause will depend on how you treat. But most importantly, the type of Sibo email that you have will dictate how you treat. And the thing about food and the thing about diet and the thing about FODMAPs, which are a form of carbohydrates that are easily fermentable, is that food controls your symptoms. It does not resolve your underlying cause. It does not even resolve the overgrowth of the bacteria or methanogens.

It simply controls your symptoms, which is fantastic. Still amazing. But if you only stop at FODMAPs, you will be doing yourself a disservice because you will not be reducing the overgrowth through the three main treatments. And you will also not probably search for your underlying cause. And you might get really frustrated with food. So you've talked a lot like this is like so like music to my ears because, you know, in my background with Lyme busy and heavy metals, it was like you just search everywhere and you meet no one who knows what they're doing.

And then all of a sudden everybody knows what they're doing. So a couple of things that I kind of glean from is, and is everybody seems to be an expert. Like if people are looking for an expert, like, how do they even know or like what are the main things that they should be looking for for? Like the key words that are, yeah, I should work here. Or maybe this is just another person putting up a shingle, because I think that we, we are all looking so many places. Yeah. You know, I understand what you're saying because there like I said,

Finding answers, summits, and advocacy 8:00

there are a lot of rabbit holes. I think that Google that person's name. How often does it come up? But does that mean that they're an expert? It doesn't. It means they've done a pretty good job with the PR. Yeah, SEO wizard. Right. And that being said, let's say I know a lot of doctors and practitioners who are in their clinics, in the lab, in their exam rooms, working their butts off. They know what they're doing. They're not famous. No way. They're not famous at all. That's one of the reasons why I love summits is because I get to reveal on famous people to the world.

So for real, right? So I would ask some questions. I would say, do you work with people with Sibo and email? Do you do the Sibo breath test? What kind of substrate do you like? Lactose, glucose, fructose? Some questions. Bottom line is, is S.O.S. you have to save yourself. So you have to be your own advocate. You have to have your own education. You don't need to be a genius. You just need to have enough to move you forward to the next right step. So this is about one foot in front of the other, and you don't want to make costly mistakes with time, energy, and money and being with the wrong person.

I totally get it. So don't move too fast. Go into some Facebook groups. We have one at Siebel SOS, Facebook community, virtual Community, whatever, CBS bozos with 24,000 people in there talking about this. Ask around if you're trying to find a gastroenterologist, call the front desk. Does this person do Sibo breath test? Right. Hold on. I'll be right back. Wait a minute. Please hold. Hi. I asked the nurse and she isn't sure that is not your practitioner. I call. I asked the doctor. He said he doesn't believe in Sibo, not your practitioner.

Okay, so here's a way to reverse engineer it. Call the labs like Arrow Diagnostics when Tron, which makes the machinery for the Sibo breath tests. Tell them you're looking to do a Sibo breath test. Can they tell you a doctor in the area that runs them? Don't be afraid of telemedicine. Telemedicine is a miracle. One hour with a practitioner who's a specialist can save you a year and thousands and thousands of dollars. So those are some suggestions I have. You can do some Sibo breath testing on your own Treo smart a Gemelli Labs.

You can get a hold of them and for like a minor fee, fill out a questionnaire, find out if you're a candidate, they will send you the script for the Oculus, and you can run the test if you're in New York State. No, but there there are ways around it, which is one of the things that we do as a primary educational resource is helpful. It's so good to have access to it right. And because I know I looked in my healing journey forever to find the people to help me. And just like you said, eventually, for me it was like it was S.O.S..

And then once I did all the groundwork, magically the doctors that actually knew what they were doing were on my doorstep. It was amazing. And the thing they found, and this is a question I have too, because you brought it up a couple times, is they really dug into that underlying cause that the other folks hadn't previously. Are there particular underlying causes that folks should be looking for for Sibo email? Yes. And they are things like food poisoning. Even if you say, I've never had food poisoning, did you have stomach for flu?

Did you have diarrhea for 24 hours and then you weren't really quite the same after you had surgery? We're on opioids and Nash that constipation never really went away. I've not been the same since because that the deep anesthesia plus opioids for pain meds slow the migrating motor complex enough so that, overgrowth could occur. Scleroderma, endometriosis, adhesions, cesarean sections, internal scars, Lyme disease. Gosh, what else? Mice? Alcoholism, mold. Oh, and you know, a lot of things are contributing factors.

How to identify a real SIBO expert 12:00

So is your Sibo bad because of mold? Did it cause the CVO? For me, it was the it was the food poisoning. Did the mold make it worse and very unresolvable for a really long time? That is correct. So hormones thyroid imbalances affect your motility. What's impacting your microbiome and what's impacting your motility. Those are some things to look at. Get the IBS smart test. Now. They do not have a cure yet for for to help those antibodies. But there are treatments for Sibo that can help lower your gas levels.

That, combined with the pro kinetic taken after your treatment and maybe you have to do multiple rounds of treatment, will stimulate and make a symphony of your migrating motor complex so that overgrowth can't occur or doesn't occur as much as it did. So yeah, it was interesting because earlier we're talking about like, you know, the work that you're doing, chronic conditions and fascia and the summit and everything. And for me as an osteopath, I'm like, the first thing I think of when you talk about like the hospital and anesthesia and stuff is like any of these procedures where they blow up your belly and stuff.

We have this high likelihood of post-operative Elias, which is a fancy way of saying your gut is not moving. There's poor motility afterwards, but it's almost in shock. And it sounds like anything that can slow down the pace of things moving through your gut could potentially either create the situation where Sibo could happen or where it could worsen. Yeah, I mean that that's all true. However, if you let's say you you don't have an Elias cycle valve, okay. Which is the valve between the small and the large intestine and the backwash of large intestine, bacteria goes into the small intestine.

And that can happen if it's stuck. And but if you don't have an alias, you give out. Some people don't. Some surgical procedures. And like number one, you may have agents with adhesions, which are those internal scars which can pull the tissue out of place. Ehlers-Danlos is another underlying cause, which is a collagen disorder of laxity through the body and organs. But if you have a really strong migrating motor complex not impaired by food poisoning, then potentially you wouldn't have to get Sibo.

It could be sleeping. That's that. It sloshes in, sleep it out. So I've actually asked doctor Mark them and tell this question like exactly that. If you are taking a broken attic or you have a strong migrating motor complex, theoretically and practically, could you avoid having Sibo? And he was like, yes, you could. So he even said that if you did Pro kinetics, you could actually resolve Sibo. But that's not the usual way of going about it. It's usually one of three treatments, which is either the elemental diet, which is a liquid diet for 17 days.

And it is not your typical protein powder, it's amino acids. It is, disgusting tasting. Although now they have that's what's so true. Right? Right. I mean, it's truly gross, but it is. There are new formulas, like Doctor Michael Lucio's formula, Integrative Therapeutics that are much, much better. And, then there is antibiotics, as in rifaximin plus neomycin or just for maximum depending on the kind that you have. Some people are adding, bismuth sub nitrate or Pepto-Bismol to that combination for hydrogen sulfide.

And then the third option and it's you can also mix and match

Underlying causes and treatment options 15:30

these not within the two week to the month that you're doing the treatment. But like ABC, in order and or play around with what order works for you. And then the other one is herbs and those would be done for a month, whereas the antibiotics would be done for two weeks. One thing about the antibiotic rifaximin is it does stay in your small intestine. And so that is really cool. It doesn't nuke your entire microbiome. You know, my husband does, however, getting that reduction of the gas levels because of reducing overgrowth for some people is totally worth it.

What I also just recently in July asked Doctor Pimentel was look, if you do take this, he's identified the bad players in the microbiome that take over. And I used to think it was location, location that you had just the overgrowth. But it's not that it's partially that, but it's not just that it is actually that specific. Bad players are there that are part of the normal microbiome, but get out of control like weeds in a garden. And then they, as gatekeepers, hurt the rest of the microbiome. So once those are in check, I was like, well, how fast is the microbiome come back?

He's like weeks. That's pretty rad. Food intolerance is also go away once your IBS and Sibo are resolved. In many cases like I had Sibo, I got it treated. Now I can eat an apple, I had Steve-O, I got it treated. I had to do three rounds, I retested. I have now okay my gut feeling much, much better. And now I can eat some Italian food with garlic. I mean, it it it does happen all the time. So I just want to send that as a message of hope for people who feel like they've tried everything and they're not well yet.

But the question to really ask is, have you tried really everything and done it in the right order? Well, I think that's so important to to talk about because I know a lot of people are like, oh, like, I actually just had someone follow up with me the other day, like we treated her Sibo, a year and a half ago. And then I gave her a follow up, like a follow up plan, like next step, you know, like the antibiotics followed by the herbs and then like, a year plus later, comes back and, like, I haven't heard from her and she's like, I'm still having the same stuff.

But it wasn't like there wasn't that follow through of the whole protocol. So what's it look like for people? I mean, is it like because you just mentioned two weeks a month, 17 days? I mean, can somebody can the average person there is a protocol that was developed by Doctor Pimentel and then by doctor C Becker and Doctor Steven Sandberg, Louis I even contributed part of it. Just a little bit, but still, I'll take credit. You're in there. So I was like, oh, look at that. Basically it's do test to determine if you have Sibo and then while you're doing the diet the whole time, and then I'm visualizing the algorithm and then, do one of three treatments that I just described herbs, antibiotics or the elemental diet retest so you can see if it worked.

And then if it worked and you're feeling 90% better, get on with your life and take a pro kinetic, which moves the migrating motor complex gently. And if you need to, let's say the gas levels came down a little bit, you want to do that treatment again or you're like, you know what, I feel like doing herbs now or I'm screwed. I'm just going to do the elemental diet. Then you do that again. Retest, do your pro kinetic while you're doing the diet the whole time. So there there are there's a very specific validated combination of things to do.

And one of the big myths that is very frustrating is for people who say it comes back all the time. It does come back all the time, but a lot of people are also not doing pro kinetics. If you do not do that, Pro Connecticut will probably come back, especially if you have an unresolved underlying cause. But there is definitely a protocol to it. Many people are not doing it in the right order. They are. They're wasting a lot of time, energy and money by getting sidetracked. If you have a very tough case, mold Lyme heavy metals, it is great to do a do a pre talks right to make sure you're among your drainages, open your poop and your, you know, regular stuff out.

That would be great because once you do you know the killing part of the reducing of the bacteria. You know you don't want that stuff getting stagnated in your body. However, there are so many people who do not pay attention to that and still have resolved their Sibo. So there's a lot of hope. There's so much hope. A lot of times you're like, I have to be gluten free. I have to be sugar free. I have to be dairy free, which I am all for. If that is you that is fantastic there, you know, great. Do you need to do that to resolve your Sibo?

No, you do not. Okay. Like the cases of traditional gastroenterologists who are not talking about anything with diet and a monk diaries and drainage who resolve their patients Sibo all the time is enough to give you hope, so don't over complicated it. And that being said, if you do have a complicated case which I get hello mole 20 years, I get that you need you do need to address that. But you got to walk that line of simplicity, complexity and doing it right in the right order and not overcomplicating it.

Give it a to do, but don't over complicate it. Right. And it's like an I'm just thinking about like my own. So as I learned the simplicity of it's like the simple little things actually work. And that was the part my doctors didn't teach me. And I think what I really love hearing, Shivan, is that you're saying like, it's

Testing, retesting, and managing chronic SIBO 21:00

not just about smashing the conventional doctors and they don't know how to do it because you just said they actually do fix it. Some can now. Some people, like I literally just talked to someone who said her gastroenterologist didn't believe in Siva. I'm like, so why are people who the doctors don't believe in Lyme? I'm like, how do you not believe in Lyme? It's a freak. I mean, it's a spiral organism that we can fight. I mean, it's like a thing, right? I mean, come on. And it's not a religion, so you don't need to believe it.

You just don't know it anyway, right? Right. And so. So, some traditional doctors absolutely do know what they are involved and others don't. They weren't taught this in school. Yeah, they were not taught this in school. So like doctor C Becker has a course for pros called the CEO Pro course, which we're super thrilled that like so many people are getting so much help from it. And, you know, she teaches at the natural, medicine school in Portland, Oregon. And this takes you even further. So there are resources and there is a lot of hope. And, I just don't give up.

Don't give up. The other thing is do tests to find out if you do have Sibo. Again, the symptoms are bloating, constipation, diarrhea, alternating constipation, diarrhea mass, histamine intolerance that is part of the constellation. But Sibo also mimics other things like parasites like Candida. In serious cases, ovarian cancer can cause bloating, right? So really find out if you have it. Get tested. I love Arrow Diagnostics Labs. I love, Gemelli Labs and Treo. Smart. Oh, she's like a fish. She's like a fish.

She's just wiggling. Right. So cute. She's like one big muscle. Anyway, and find out if you really do have Sibo and treat that so you're not spinning your wheels. Well, I think it's it's so important to know to get the test. And then, like you said, the magic word that's like Alleluia. My ears is retest. It's like a lot of people are like, oh, I'm going to have it forever, or oh, it's fixed. And it's like you can actually have multiple things. And like, I just really want to drive home for people that testing and retesting is critical because you can have something and then fix it and something else can come up.

And my goodness, if ovarian cancer can cause a similar symptom as Sibo, that's a pretty significant difference in outcome. Yeah, I mean, it's it has happened. It has happened. So I mean, it's not super common, but that doesn't matter. I think it's I think it's worth investigating and when to test, you know, and when you know, it is a weird feeling to have a diagnosis and be relieved. Very strange. I know I've had it myself. And yet it's empowering because when there are answers and it's not an incurable disease, you can take action.

Now, some people have an underlying cause that's not going to be resolved, but you can manage it. And this is a huge thing. That's part of my whole message, which is that a managed chronic condition can have you feeling 100% better, 100% better than an unmanaged chronic condition. So you manage your Sibo, you can feel 100% better than unmanaged Sibo and get your life back. I love it so much. Hope and all of that. So I was going to ask you if you had anything you wanted to kind of wrap everything together with.

But I mean, that's kind of like feels it up and slam dunk it. I mean, it's so good. Shivan I'm so thankful for the opportunity to have this conversation and provide this education and this hope for all of our folks who are listening. So I'd love to, just give you a moment to be able to share with people where they can find you if they're interested in learning more about what you're doing. And, because I think you're probably motivating a lot of people right now because it's like, hey, maybe it won't go away, but I can actually manage this and lead an amazing life and and feel so much better.

Yeah. Not freak out that you have to go to a social engagement or whatever. What to eat at the restaurant. So my website is sibo sos.com.

Resources, hope, and closing remarks 25:00

Doctor C Beckers is Sibo Infocom. The, Sibo pro course I think is Sibo protocol, I don't know, go look at her website and mine. It has it. And then also the Facebook group Sibo, SOS community. And we also have a course called the Cabo Recovery Roadmap, which is a course designed for patients that both Doctor Steve Becker and I, teach. And it has helped thousands of people to really know what to do next, get a hold of the testing companies, like really hold hold your hand on paper or see what recovery roadmap looks good to say.

It's ridiculous. That is the name of it. And, it really, you know, there is hope and just stay the course. And she also causes anxiety. So give yourself a break. Yeah, right. And so much of this just dry it just really, you know, puts you in that mental overdrive. And you know, we've talked so much in the summit about like the connection between the gut and the vagus and the brain and anxiety and memory. So all those other things really Sibo can be impacted by or impact. So these are this is a sort of Charlotte's Web of the whole thing that we're helping to unravel here in the summit.

And I want to say a personal thank you because I've, you know, between the information I've learned from, you know, following your work and following the work of doctor C Becker, like when I first started, I knew Sibo was a thing because I started to see it, but I didn't know where to go. And having that information, even as a board certified physician, I was like you said, I wasn't taught this. And so just a sincere thank you from me, and I know all my patients because the work that you're doing is actually helped train me to actually make a difference and know that we should be talking right now.

So, so good. And thank you for joining us. Very heartwarming to hear that. Thank you. Mission. Mission accomplished. And still going strong. And we're trying to really get the word out around the globe. We've had some folks from China as well as the Middle East. And, I love sharing this information with everyone in the United States and Canada and the UK. And then when we reach some of those harder to reach locations with social media, etc., I get really turned on. So please spread the word. Thank you so much.

You're so welcome. And yeah, everyone definitely share the word because, you know, again, if you think about food poisoning as one of the biggest triggers, how much of that is happening in places outside of the US where we could make a huge difference in everyone and think about their mass activation syndrome? It could, you know, there's that back and forth balance and this could be the big trigger that makes a huge difference in not only your life, but someone else's. So please share again, Shivan Sarna, thank you so much for joining us and everyone.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Reversing Mass Activation Syndrome and Histamine Intolerance Summit. And we'll see you in our next interview.