Stop Picky Eating In Its Tracks: Cultivating Great Eaters In The Modern Family

Introduction to Picky Eating 0:00

Welcome back to ADHD, Autism and Chronic Disease Parenting Summit. I'm here with the amazing Katie Kimball, founder of Kitchen Stewardship, one of my favorite people to talk to you. I always love being involved in your projects. You're one of the I don't know, I'd say the people that are doing so much for kids in terms of teaching them to cook and getting kids in the kitchen and everything to do with food. So I thank you for being here and thanks for chatting today. Oh, this is going to be a treat.

We're talking about one of my favorite topics. I love talking about picky eating. I mean, it's interesting because even as a pediatrician I get asked about this a lot. And it's not, you know, in any way something you're taught in and med school. I can tell you that much about picky eating and and what to expect. But yeah, it's a big topic. And as somebody who promotes healthy eating and, you know, getting kids to get back to the basics and eat the rainbow, that's not always the easiest thing. So I'm curious what what you're seeing.

Are you seeing more, I mean, obviously talking about it, so probably. Yes. But are you seeing a lot more interested in picky eating? And why is this happening more these days? It's it is really ramping up. And I mean, you just said eat the rainbow. So if a pediatrician tells a family we want our kids to eat the rainbow and they're like, Doctor Gator, they won't even eat a blueberry, like, not even one. You know, it just seems like a huge chasm for parents to cross. I do think that it is increasing.

I mean, statistically, the stats say it is up to at least 50% of kids, experienced some sort of picky eating by the age of six, and most of them won't grow out of it without the parents taking some intentional steps. So it's kind of a myth out there to say like, oh, like all kids are picky eaters. They'll be fine. They'll totally grow out of it. Well, first of all, all kids aren't. Although most will show some signs, but especially like the more severe picky eating, they demonstrate them where you really do need to step in, and the faster and earlier the better.

So I think it's increasing for a couple of reasons. Some are cultural and some are environmental. So if we think about our culture, we've we've been through like our younger kids have just been through this pandemic. We all have. That was stressful for all of us. And so pandemic. Yes. And also the stresses of modern life. Like I think kids are feeling more stress in general. And one of the physiological effects of stress is it reduces their appetite. Right? It's an evolutionary perspective. If we're running from a bear, we don't have time to stop for a hamburger.

So, so when kids are feeling stressed, whether it's about school, whether they're, you know, hearing their parents talk about the news and the parents don't think they're listening, but they feel that emotional stress in the home, whether the parents are, you know, in a divorce situation, we know, like half of all marriages are ending in divorce. Like this is a stress for the kids.

Why Picky Eating Is Increasing 2:51

Social stress, social media stress for older kids. The stresses are coming from lots of places. And regardless of whether the stress is about food or not, it can impact the table. So that's a big one. We also know that we're seeing higher numbers of kids with sensory sensitivities. I'm sure you see that in your practice. Yeah, right. These are the kids who are saying, oh like my tag is itchy. I don't like to wear blue jeans. I only want to wear comfy clothes. I, you know, they don't like the strong smells, maybe.

Or the sounds of a busy cafeteria can can drive them nuts there. Any any one of your senses can be over or under sensing. And when that's happening, it impacts your relationship with food. Because we use not only all five, but all eight of our senses when we eat. So any kind of sensory interruption impacts eating. And it might look like picky eating when it's really high sensitivity and the kids are just tapping out, you know, they're just like my system is overwhelmed. I cannot focus on putting this in my mouth, assessing whether I like the flavors and chewing and swallowing it right now.

Speaking of chewing and smiling, that's another factor in picky eating. We have changed the way we feed babies over the years as a culture. And so when my oldest is 18, when he was a baby, most of the food came either we were just shifting at that point from like the pretty little glass jars. I don't even know if your parents would remember those. Baby food always used to come in glass jars. When my 18 year old was a baby, they were shifting from the glass jars to the plastic tubs, but we were still spoon feeding the babies.

The babies could still, like, stick their hand in the tub and smear the food on their faces. But now baby food aisles are 80 to 90% pouches. And what this does is it inhibits the interaction between the child's body and the food. They may or may not get to smell that food before it goes in their mouth. They may or may not get to touch it and smear it on their face and get it matted in their hair and get it down under their clothes, like that's actually a part of eating is experiencing food from head to toe.

And we're we're able to opt out of that because of pouches. Also, kids who are handed the pouch are now sucking their food instead of taking it off of a spoon. And that changes over time. The way that the palate develops, the way that we learn to chew, the way that, like our tongue, it's called tongue tip lateralization. Basically, let's say tongue agility, how you move the food from the front of your mouth to the back of your mouth so you can swallow it. So some of our kids and again parents like this is the culture feeding you how to feed your kids.

This is not something to feel guilty about, but it just means that some kids mouths and swallow reflexes aren't adapting or aren't, building the way they maybe should be. So chewing is actually just really hard. We don't like to do hard things. So what does that look like? Well, it looks at kids who just like mashed potatoes and chicken nuggets and hot dogs and things that are kind of like pre chewed meat. And they don't eat raw, crunchy vegetables because it's just so hard. So that's a big one.

And I know this got really long. But the final one I think is the toxins in our environment that we're just kind of building up so much for our kids bodies, and that may be contributing to those sensory sensitivities and may be contributing to undiagnosed food allergies. If your kid's in a low level of pain on the regular and they can't articulate that, they're just like, like food, you know, subconsciously they don't really want to touch it because they subconsciously realize that the food is making them hurt, but they can't tell us.

So that's a huge it's like a huge cauldron, this huge batch of problems creating a much higher percentage of kids struggling with their relationship with food. Yeah, I agree, I think that's a very a very good list. I think it's very reasonable. I would also agree I don't love the pouches either. And I think that's that's a big and it's very interesting to see that we've moved two pouches a lot. And you know, I try not to recommend pouches as much as possible. I mean they're better pouches versus horse pouches, but you always gotta.

But first of all, just like you said, like you're getting, you know, mushy food, but you're also not getting fresh food when if, you know, it's not the same thing as a puree. So there are many reasons for that. But I agree that probably does contribute to picky eating. And people don't even realize that. And before we move on to discussing what to do about it, I'm just curious because we didn't really talk about this in the beginning, maybe we should have. But what is your definition of picky eating?

So what does that mean to you? And you know, I'll just start by saying that like, you know, different kids, different ages can mean different things. Of course, I'm sure you mentioned that. And there is some normal, you know, I would say decrease in the excitement of food for kids as they get in that toddler age. And, you know, for some kids it's not true. But for other kids, you know, they're going to be a little more picky. And it comes around what what do you consider as concerning picky eating or what does that definition to.

Because I think it is a there's no specific definition. It's a little different. Everybody. Absolutely true. And I'll say I mean I'm a mom of four. So my really in-depth experience is with n equals four. Right. But I was trained and picky eating in the S.O.S approach to feeding. So doctor K to me, I think is one of the world's foremost experts in picky eating. And so the way she teaches it is that there's problem feeders, which is about 5 to 7% of the population. And that's the worst. You might call them an extreme picky eater.

I'll tell you what that's like in a second. As well as true picky eaters. And then I like to add picky phasers to that. So we'll start with picky phasers, because that's the most common where kids are just figuring out like where their boundaries are. Like, what if I say no to this? Is my parent going to let me get away with that? They did awesome. I have power and control now because if I say no to the broccoli and they give me the mac and cheese, guess who's the boss? By the way? Don't let your kid say no the broccoli and just give the mac and cheese because you're letting them be the boss.

So that's just a little bit of, you know, like parenting can't actually cause picky eating research says parental methods, parental depression,

Defining Picky Phases, Picky Eaters, and Problem Feeders 8:43

anything about the parent can't actually cause picky eating. But I do think it can exacerbate what's there. So your picky phaser is your kid who likes the food one day, doesn't like it the next, you know, turns down new foods, sometimes tries new foods, sometimes it's just it's kind of that annoying little mosquito that that won't go away until you set some boundaries and say, you know what? We're going to put that broccoli on your plate anyway. And no, we're not having mac and cheese tonight. It's lasagna or it's stir fry.

You don't have to eat it. I'm okay with that. But you also aren't going to get me to order to cook for you. Picky phasers are very common. They're probably blue phase in and out. And one thing I'd love to say to parents about the definition of picky eaters is try not to use the word picky eater, right? Because when we label our kids, they will then own that label. So we really want to remove that label. I like to teach parents growth language like you're just learning to eat, right? Some kids learn to read or use the potty slower or faster than other kids, and that is really going to be the same for eating.

So for most parents we're speaking to, I want you not to worry, right, that your child is learning to eat and their path might be a little more jagged, or their upward trajectory to building a great relationship with food may be a little less steep or quick than other kids, but as long as they're moving forward, there's nothing to worry about. Now, a true picky eater, to doctor K to me is going to be one who doesn't try new foods. Okay? They they have their certain amount, you know, they're kind of certain number of foods that they eat and they absolutely will not try new foods, but they're not quite as bad as a problem feeder.

So the problem feeder again this is like 6 or 7%. And I'll run through it real quickly. What you most need to know about problem feeders. If you think you have one, is that you do need expert help because it's a very, very, very low percentage chance that anything good will happen without a trained occupational therapist or feeding therapist to kind of help you climb out of that. These are the kids who eat 20 or fewer foods. Okay. So it's you know, it's very, very extreme. Not only will they not try a new food, but they will freak out if it goes on their plate and when they food drag and drop of food, they never get it back.

So a food jag is we have oatmeal every day for breakfast, or we have exactly the same brand of Trix yogurt in the same flavor every day for lunch. And then suddenly my kid gives it up to picky eaters will do that. And then a couple weeks later, they'll they'll bring it back into the fold. Problem feeders never bring it back. So it's really concerning because they're starting out with 20 or fewer foods. And then if their food jagging, they drop off food and they don't bring it back. So that's like another mini lesson here is try not to let your kids food Jag, whether they're maybe picky phasers, regular eaters to picky eaters or problem feeders.

We want to make sure that we're having some variety day to day, and that the same exact food is not in their repertoire. Every single day, because you do run the risk of a food jag and kids just get bored, you know, and then they drop that food. Yeah. And I would say from, from the medical perspective, the times when I see those kids and usually how we would differentiate it is, is, you know, from the medical standpoint, it's like the kids that are not growing up, maybe they have severe reflux or having other health issues.

I mean, usually it's growth that that makes people present so their kids are not gaining weight or they're or they're losing weight. And that is generally where this kind of veers off. And this is not what we're talking about in terms of picky. And yes, they are picky eaters, but that's more of a medical issue when you're not growing. And that's something exactly like you said, where you do probably want to go to your doctor. You might want to go to a nutritionist, an occupational therapist. Maybe there's food aversions, other things.

You know, that's a whole other topic for another day. But that that's important to know because that's different. And, you know, just going through some general strategies which we'll do next might not work for for those those kids, I mean they're probably helpful, but that's not the first step. The first step is to make sure that they're healthy. And then and then to increase their, their palate. So I think that's you know, yeah. Useful dichotomy for people. And you're exactly right. I mean I'm not looking at my slide has like 20 definitions of a problem feeder.

And the fact that they're not doing well on the growth chart, the pediatrician is concerned is on there and it interrupts family life. Like if you have a problem feeder, you probably can't go out to it to a party or a potluck because there's literally nothing your kid will eat. So for the rest of you, like good news? Your kid's pretty typical and they just they just need a little help. Fine. Staying on that path, you know, to to having a good relationship with food and not straying completely off of it.

But there but the paths can look really different. So so let's talk about the the average thing that I would say in the office. I'm sure that everything that comes your way, which is, you know, the toddler, maybe the younger kid, a little older than toddler age, who super healthy, happy kid, doesn't love vegetables, doesn't love fruits, mostly wants to eat bread and dairy and and sugar. And then, you know, maybe some meat here or there, things that. But they just, like, don't really want to eat veggies or fruit or not very, you know, exciting explorers of food.

What what are your top strategies? Because, you know, the parents come in, they're like, I know he's not getting enough nutrients. I want to eat more veggies. They just spit it out. They don't want it. They always want to eat, you know, pasta and hot dogs and whatever. You know, that's that's what they say to me. So what are your your kind of tips or strategies or where do we start with this. For sure, especially for talking about toddlers. I mean, you mentioned sugar. I would say if for any parents who are listening whose kid hasn't had candy yet, just pretend it doesn't exist in the world.

Like that is my job strategy right? Is.

Practical Feeding Strategies for Toddlers and Kids 14:21

And it gets harder the more kids you have because the younger ones will watch the olders. But just trying to keep a little more control in toddler time of what they see and what they experience as food. I think growth language is really important. I mean, your kid has decades to build their relationship with food, so we never want to pigeonhole whether they're two or 4 or 10. I don't want to hear any parent saying, oh, he doesn't like salmon or, oh, you know, she won't try seafood. You know, I remember being in Costco once.

Like, Costco's the kid's favorite store because they're samples. You you get to eat. And when you go to Costco with mom. And my kids just love like mom. You think, throw these samples today. I'll come with you if there are. And my little guy was probably 4 or 5 and it was the sample was some sort of with salmon spread on crackers, and he asked if he could try it from the cart. I said, oh, of course. And the older lady who was serving said, oh, I'm so glad that you let him try it. You would not believe the number of parents who come by and their kid asked for the sample, and the parent says, oh no, they won't eat that.

Don't waste the sample on it. You know, she and I are like bonding over this. And it's like, yeah, they totally it's free. They should totally let their kids try the salmon. So like, just think of that when you're at your table always allowing kids to taste using that growth language of oh like yeah that you're not really liking that yet. Maybe you'll like it when you're older. Right. So we we just we went to build this vision. We want to build this, you know, kind of futurecast. Seeing the vision starting is as soon as you're talking to them, which I hope is newborn.

Right. Like that your taste buds are always growing. I love phrases like, oh, your taste buds probably haven't grown up yet. Maybe we'll try that again in a few weeks. And my kids hear this so much that I know, like when my daughter is 15. I know you want to talk about a kid who could be set in her ways, and she is. But we we still try to, you know, talk about tasting and stuff. And she just said to me, the other day, she's like, yeah, but remember, I don't like almonds. And she's like, oh, it's been a couple of years since I've tried them.

I guess I better try again. And internally I'm like, yeah, it's working, you know? But like just the fact that she's thinking, oh, like I am, it is not part of my identity that I don't like almonds. It probably because she had orthodontics done and she couldn't eat nuts for a while. So honestly, I think that's why she's struggling with nuts. And I'm like, let's keep trying them again. Now that the braces are off. Right? So we want to use that growth language and we want to give our kids agency starting really young.

And agency means having some choice and control over your situation. But we want agency within boundaries, very, very key. So it's not. Mom, can I have mac and cheese? It's. Honey, would you like to have a piece of broccoli on your plate? Or a green bean? Right. Or like what we say is, would you like a taster or a serving? So our kids are always required to have at least one bite on their plate. They're never required to eat it because that's a disrespectful relationship. That's a disrespectful request.

Because if I say you have to eat that or have one bite before you leave the table, that means like, what happens if they say no? You know what I mean? Like play that out appearance. They say no. And now either you're could be in an hours long, you know, to eat where they're sitting at the table or you're in a screaming match or like, what? Would you really put that green bean in their mouth and make them chew and swallow? I hope not, right? That's super disrespectful to their bodily autonomy. So if we're not going to follow through all the way to the ugly end, we ought not say it.

Right. So I say you need to have a taster bite on your plate. But don't worry, you don't have to eat it. And removing that onus, that requirement to eat is going to give kids the ability to make their own choices and have some agency over what goes in their mouth. But you still decide what is served for dinner. You still decide, you know, if we're talking toddlers and like highchair trays, just put a bunch of stuff out there, kind of ignore them, let them play like they're so they're so interested in exploring.

We want to take that pressure off. So it's not, it's not oh, isn't this fun? We love our vegetables. Vegetables are so good for you. Let's play airplane. Like that's actually just positive pressure right. So if we just kind of say here's some food, like mom's going to eat her food, I'm like, I like the salt on this. I'm going to try dipping this in butter and see if I like it in any better. You know, we just try to like, talk about food instead of pressuring to eat the food. Yeah, agreed. And I love the classical example of sampling.

You know, that's one of the the big tips that I give it in, in my office. And I think, you know, Costco is a great example. We are lucky. We have a farmer's market right down the street from our office with, you know, a couple days a week. And so a lot of times, what I'll tell parents is for those picky eaters, like, take them with you, please take them with you. There are some great, you know, stores that have tasters. And just because your kid says they don't like apples, they probably don't know whether they like apples.

There's like 50 different kinds of apples. So maybe if you go there and you say, okay, well, look, there's like 50 different apples here. Let's like try a couple of bites of difference. Then they may very well like 1 or 2 apples and they may not like all of them. But then you can actually pick the one that they're like, oh yeah, this one's actually pretty good, especially as the kids get older and they understand it a little bit more. Certainly it's good to do when they're younger, but I think an older kid does does get the concept of like, oh, I might not like this plum, but I like that plum, all right.

And you can give them the option to them. It's like, oh, well, I actually love this one. And I think that's a very like something that even with kids, it's really I've noticed a lot more of is sometimes my older one doesn't like a food, but not because he doesn't like that food. If he doesn't like that version of the food where there's something else, you know, you cook it a little bit differently, or you buy it in a different, you know, different bag or whatever it is. Or sometimes it's just like the picture on them or whatever.

Who knows what it is with a toddler. But but sometimes it's just the different version of it is what the like or how you call it, you know, you name it something different and it's fun. I mean, there's so many different ways and strategies to kind of encourage kids, kids to try different things, that it's not always because they won't eat it. Sometimes it's just more kid stuff. Like, right. I mean, my youngest, he'll say, I'll remember I don't like chicken, and then we'll start asking him questions.

Oh, but do you like, what do you think about the barbecue chicken? Because it's like slow cooked, right? And it's shredded. And he's like, oh no, I like that. Oh okay. Because maybe we're having grilled chicken and that's going to be harder for kids to chew. And so we'll say, oh well like what do you think about, you know, chicken. Chipotle labels. We love we love Mexican around here. And he's like, oh no I like chicken taco labels. So it's it's so vital to understand that when we label things kids take those kids take those labels.

You know, so when a kid puts different types of apple in their mouth or an apple versus a plum, they're not thinking, this is fruit. They're thinking this tastes different than that. You know, and so like when doctor K to me says you know problem feeders like or have fewer than 20 foods on their list, that's a Ritz cracker a goldfish crackers, a saltine cracker are three different foods because that's how kids think of food. So we need to be cautious not to say, oh, you didn't like the chicken today and then accidentally label them, oops, okay, this kid doesn't like chicken, right?

Like I've got, you know, my kid doesn't like bone in chicken, but he loves shredded chicken. He loves Mexican chicken. So really important. Same with brussel sprouts. You know I've got I've got kids who are like, oh, if you shave them thin, mom, they get crispy. I like them. But if I were to boil brussel sprouts like, no, not in a million years, do would they eat them? Right. And that's think I would say that that's a very helpful point in my office to when I'm talking to parents, because sometimes it's just a reminder like, hey, how is your cooking?

Like, you know, so a lot of us like, never really learned how to cook very much. Know, maybe we know some basics. And so sometimes for some families, their kids not eating the food because you're not preparing it in a way that they, they would like it. And that's not to say like, you know, to shame a parent or something that it's like, you know, sometimes we're just not all the best chefs. And so there are a lot of, you know, we're lucky. There's a lot of programs out there where you can, like, learn 50 different styles of how to deal with brussel sprouts or to do broccoli.

You give a kid a steamed broccoli. They might not like it, but if you cover in oil and, you know, bake it for like maybe, maybe they will. So there's just things to think about. Yeah, some kids will be picky no matter what you do. But I also remind people, if we have some some part of this too. And let's try different ways because it just because you're giving a kid broccoli the one way, it doesn't mean they don't like broccoli. Right? Totally totally. So I always like to finish off with, you know, actionable steps, things that we can do right now, something we can do this week.

And so I think, you know, with this, it's a very frustrating thing for some parents. I feel like it's too late. My kid's a picky eater. I've labeled them a picky eater. All right. Well, I guess that's just the way that it's going to be. So I guess kind of. What is your advice or what what would you say to parents who who have a picky eater and what should they do today? What can they do differently? How do they move in a better direction to have a, you know, more resilient eater? Huge encouragement that it's literally never too late.

My husband started enjoying some new fruits and vegetables in his 30s. Right? Sweet potatoes, asparagus. These were things he never used to eat. And so if you can change your palate in your 30s, you can change your palate at age five or 8 or 13. So it's never too late. We've got to keep that, you know, keep that kind of end mindset of my, my child can change. I think one of the most powerful things parents can do is count every success, you know? So if you're really working on this problem, maybe start writing down like, oh, like, what are some foods that they eat?

And then a month later drag out that list again, you know, make yourself a reminder in your phone and call, you know what it feels like we're not making progress, but I can add two foods to this list, right? Or in the reverse, maybe if you don't have more a more severe picky eater, you write down some of the foods that, gosh, my kid never eats this. They never eat that. You know, just like, dump it all out, let the paper hear your complaints.

Itu2019s Never Too Late: Encouragement and Next Steps 24:18

And then six months later, bring it alcohol. Oh my goodness, I can actually cross this off. Like we're making progress. We just don't notice it in the day to day. And I think the most practical step this is this is probably the one. My parents are picky eaters like the most I call a lead with your ace. And what that means is you make sure that your kids are coming to dinner hungry enough. They've had at least 90 minutes since the last time they put some food in their mouths, and then you put out your ace, which for many of us is vegetables.

It's the thing you most want your kids to eat. For some people, it's protein because the kids are really struggling with protein. You put it out, you let the kids know it's their and then you ignore them. Just like the toddler in the highchair tree. Really, you don't celebrate if they taste it, you don't tell them they should eat it. You don't tell them you want them to eat it because it's a no pressure like poker face situation. And it is fascinating how many kids begin to interact with that food in a completely different way than they would at dinner time when you're staring them down.

So lead with your ace is something to try and see if you can count those wins just to give yourself hope in your heart. Yeah, I love that idea with your ace. It's so simple. But but why is I? And I've noticed that again myself. It's like, you know you well, I mean, just think logically. If you have a kid and you have like the thing they really want, the thing they don't necessarily want them, they're going to eat the thing that they want there. That's just how it is. But you can always offer them the other thing first, or with it, just like you said, like I know some parents are like, oh, well, you know, before we start, we kind of give them an appetizer.

So if I want them to eat like the carrots right before, that's the only thing, then the rest of the food's not ready yet. So if you want to eat something, you can have a kid. You know what? That's fine. The food's going to be out in five minutes. But if you're hungry and if they're hungry and it's the only thing they're, then they're way more likely to eat it. So I love that. That's a really good tip. Yeah, I noticed years ago at like family gatherings when like, you know, all the cousins are staying together at grandma's, that if you put out a bowl of Eminem's throughout the day, it disappears in a bowl of washed blueberries.

Throughout the day it disappears. Right. So we're in control of what we put out and people will eat what's their exact at the time. So make it work for you. I love that. Well I mean amazing tips. Very actionable. Before we go maybe you could tell people a little bit more about where to find you all the many many many exciting things. I mean you probably would be able to list them all, but, you know, the the most important ones. You're doing a lot of stuff. I know you're always speaking and doing events and all sorts of things.

Yeah. I mean, I do teach parents of picky eaters through a membership and a picky eating challenge. So if there's one coming up, you know, you can check me out at Kids Cook Real food.com. I have a Ted talk. I'm picky eating. So if you need like, something to share, you know, with other people, that's like a pretty concise, condensed version of like what's going on with picky eating and a couple steps you can take. But then, yeah, my main thing is teaching kids to cook, which is so powerful for picky eaters because they get to interact with food without that pressure to eat in any way.

It's kind of like bringing the farmer's market home. So I love I just love watching little ones and medium sized kids learn that empowering feeling of I can do something that adults do. It's so awesome. So that's what we do at Kids Cook Real food. And of course, you know, in the summit there will be some sort of little freebie below that that we can share with you. So thank you for for being here. And just to echo, I mean, you are absolutely one of the trailblazers in this field. One of the people that I encourage, my following to go check out all the time.

I mean, anything that you put out is always really, really good, super helpful. And there's I don't know if anybody that does what you do better than than what you do. So it's really super useful, super practical stuff that kids can do, cooking all this stuff. I mean, these are like the things that any kid could use more of. And it's sad because a lot of the stuff used to be in school, or some of it used to be in school, but none of it really is anymore. So we got to teach to our kids ourself, and there's few skills more important than and cooking.

So I really appreciate that you're, you're doing that and and taking that up as your, your mission. Oh thank you. I really do want to be a resource for parents. And you know, it's a it's an amazing chance to connect with your kids, like you said on something they'll need 3 to 5 to I don't know, my kids eat 20 times a day sometimes. Right. Mine to. All right. Well, thank you for being here. And thank you for everyone for for tuning in. And we'll we'll see you in the next session.