The Juicy Truths About Your Pelvic Floor

Jana Danielson

It is great to be here. I am in love with the title and theme of this entire week. Dr. Diane.  Thank you for bringing this forward, because I think we need to start the conversation more around libido, confidence, and sensuality.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, it is a really important topic, but it is so taboo. It is one of the things that I think inspired us to get this summit going because it is so needed but not talked about enough and not made comfortable enough. Since we are talking about a taboo topic, just tell us a little bit about how you started down this road of being interested in talking, educating, and supporting people with sexual health, with the pelvic floor. Just walk us through a little bit of your journey, if you would.

Jana Danielson

Sure. I came to wellness entrepreneurship through my pain journey, and I found Pilates as my method for healing my body. I tell the story that I was on 11 different medications by the time I was 21 years old for digestive pain that was undiagnosed. Anyone who has lived with any kind of pain knows that the pain may be in a certain area, but your entire body and being is impacted by it. I was very intrigued by how, in four short months of doing Pilates twice a week, I was able to heal my body and be off all of my medications. My body was changing. It did not make sense to me how movement, diaphragmatic breathing, spinal alignment, and basic movements could heal. 

I found out later through my body’s training that that is exactly what it does: it organizes the body from the inside out. I felt I did not want to keep that a secret. I got certified to teach Pilates. I started teaching out of our home. Within about a year, it was evident that my business consulting business became a side hustle, which was my main career. Teaching movement became my passion. I opened a small Pilates studio, which expanded into a studio and an Integrated Health Therapy Clinic. 

Through my teaching and education of Pilates, the core is a central part of that. A lot of women do not realize that our pelvic floor is a component of our core. The diaphragm, which is the main muscle we breathe in, sits in our rib cage on the ceiling of the floor or of the core. Then our pelvic core is the floor with our abdominal muscles that make the 360-degree cylinder and I would start talking about the pelvic floor, and I would get these looks at, they would be talking to crickets. Nobody would ask, answer any questions, or even interact or make eye contact with me. I just found that to be so interesting at first and then kind of frustrating because it would not fail after every class or every workshop I would do that would focus on pelvic floor health. 

I would have a lineup of women waiting for me, some in tears, saying that I spoke to their souls. 

No one has ever talked about pelvic floor health that way. They felt alone. They also felt that it was normal if they just had a baby. Well, but that is what I see on TV, or that is what I see in a magazine, or if I am in menopause, I just walked down the incontinence product aisle in your grocery store. You will see all the options that you have that are framed as the solution, which are not. I realized that there was an opportunity to maybe educate in a different way to start the conversation. That is really where my love for pelvic floor health and sensual and sexual wellness is rooted.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes. Thank you for that. It is. It is so true. Much of the time, all that is talked about is some of the dysfunction that happens when people have pelvic floor imbalances. It is just as you said, you walk down the grocery store, you go to the medication aisle, or you go to whatever you need to kind of take care of the symptom. But nobody’s talking about why this is happening, and why do you think that is? Why do you think that with all of the knowledge that we have in the world around musculature and things that require proper pelvic tone, it is not something that is talked about much?

Jana Danielson

I think well, I think here’s our short answer: the incontinence product industry is a $21 billion industry. We are told that it is the fix. For men talking about libido and sexuality, 90% of erectile dysfunction is a fitness-slash-movement issue. It is not a medical issue. There is nothing wrong with their brain. Or yet, that is what we are; that is what we are told. We are fed that. I think it is years of just buying into this belief system that we are women, and we had another birthday candle on our cake. 

Therefore, these are things that should happen, and I mention this sometimes when I am having conversations: if we want to go way back and look at some deeply rooted history, maybe this is why the pudendal nerve is the main nerve that runs from our brain to our pelvic floor. Because it is a motor, it must serve a purpose. It sends messages and communicates, and it is a sensory nerve. everything from pleasure to pain. 

Well, if you were to look at the Latin root of the word pudendal, it is rooted in shame, the sensation of shame. Those of us who maybe dabble in the wittiness of what is that karmic baggage that we bring with us? Maybe that has something to do with it as well. We would just rather not have the conversation, or because we are not the Hollywood starlets that are in their skinny jeans pushing their baby carriage a week after giving birth, we think, if that is normal, I am over there. I would rather not have the conversation.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I think there is a lot of shame, which is very interesting to me. The Latin root of that, and understanding that, because I think there is so much there. One of the things I find myself in conversations about this type of topic with a lot of people is what a man is when they are seeking out sexuality and say they are being more promiscuous and they are having a lot of partners, and how that is almost the hi-fi bachelor type of thing, and women typically say if you are going to have more than one partner, then you are a slut, and it is social shaming and all of that. I find it very interesting and important that there is a root behind the idea that we are going to add up the pelvic muscles. Very interesting.

I want to make sure before we move on. I know you started mentioning that about where the pelvic floor is located, but I think we should go a little bit deeper into that and these muscles and talk about, besides things that help with incontinence, where are these muscles exactly. What are they doing? Can you start tying this into the topic of sexuality, of libido, that sort of thing for us?

Jana Danielson

Yes, let us do that. First of all, the geographical location: some women might think it is part of their abdomen and they will go. I have had clients point kind of, to just blow their belly button. They will say my pelvic floor, and they will put their hands below their belly button. So on your pelvic floor, you are sitting on it. If you put your hands on your hips, those are the bones of your pelvis. Within the pelvis lies a hammock-type group of muscles that we call the pelvic floor. We live on a planet with gravity. 

As we age, there is a dissension of lots of parts of our body. Simply because of that, however, there are really important key hints and tips that we will touch on later on that it does not age is just a number. You can have a very healthy, functional pelvic floor that works, too, because the pelvic floor holds up the pelvic organs in your body. The bladder, the uterus, and the rectum are held up. It can be thought of as a standalone kind of island of muscles, but that could not be further from the truth. 

Earlier, I mentioned that it is part of the core structure and does not work on its own. It fires.  When a pelvic floor is healthy, when it is sitting in that little bowl, it is functional, meaning it knows when to work, knows when to lift, and knows when to rest. It works with a team of three other muscles that work along with it. Our inner thigh muscles, also known as our abductors, are our deepest sort of abdominals, called the transverse abdominals, and the glutes. There are lots of glute muscles that make up the whole glute complex, but the glute media, or the gluteus medius, we call those the three core recruiters of the pelvic floor. It does not just, as I said, it is not just this island that works on its own. It does get help from muscle groups around it. 

The function, this is why some men believe I was just doing a podcast for men earlier, and the host said, What men? We do not have many babies? I am. No, it is not. Yes, men do have a pelvic floor. It is not just reserved for women, so they can have babies if they choose. It has a physicality to it, meaning that it can create dysfunction when it is not properly working. In women, it can manifest itself as incontinence, meaning you might have to run to the bathroom more often than you think you should. Or there might be some leaking when you cough, sneeze, or lapse. There can be urged incontinence where you have bags of groceries in your hand and you get to your front door and you did not have to pee a nanosecond ago, and now you are dropping the groceries and undoing your pants as you run to the bathroom. There is that whole piece.

Then there are things that, if there is pelvic floor pain or pain during intercourse, we can touch on. But there are also symptoms that you might not draw a direct line to constipation, bloating, cold, and tingling feet. The sciatica issues—all of those—tight hip flexors, low grade, chronic back pain—can all play into pelvic floor health because of their location. It is a junction between the upper body and the lower body. Because of its geography, when it is dysfunctional, it can create symptoms up or down in the body. If you are a person who has just been trained to go where the pain or discomfort is, my hip is bugging me. My back is bugging me. Or, as you may not think, geez, maybe the root of this is my pelvic floor. When it comes to sensuality and libido, I just think it is the keystone in the Roman arch when we understand that. Our root chakra, the root energy center, is located there. In a place where we feel grounded and safe. 

There is a lot of trauma. Women take a lot of trauma into the head, neck, shoulders, and pelvis. We need to understand that, how to work through that, that it is not just the physicality of, oh, I am peeing my pants; it looks a little bit like there is a lot of emotionality in that part of our body, and there is a lot of energy in that part of our body. Once you understand those layers of confidence and sensuality, they will follow the physical function. When we can improve physical function, the emotionality in this and the energetics of confidence and sensuality will follow.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes. There is so much in what you said there. Thank you for that. I want to kind of piece my questions apart because we can go in a lot of different directions. First, if we could, one of the things I want to touch on and make sure everybody hears is the fact that when we are talking about the pelvic floor, we are not just talking about sexuality, but all of these different things. If what Jana is telling us here is that if we have, say, some of this pain, sciatica, that could be from the pelvic floor, which of course, can feed into our sexuality, because who is very interested in having sex when they are in pain? There is a link that way. But let us go a little bit more into how this is connected to things like dyspareunia and pain with sex. How is this even connected to the challenges of orgasm? Can you go into those kinds of topics a little more for us?

Jana Danielson

Yes. If we think of a number line or a continuum, the pelvic floor can be too tight and difficult to tolerate. You give your kids sugar; they are hyper; there is too much activity, hypertone. On the other end of that spectrum, our number line has a hypotone. a lack of tone. When it is hypertone, it does not mean that the muscle is strong. Everyone always wants to strengthen their pelvic floor. It means that the muscle is tight. That muscle is a brick wall. What we do not realize is that, unconsciously, some of us hold a lot of tension in that area, even just during our regular activities of daily living. 

If you live in a place where there are seasons and you have ever been in a vehicle where you hit a patch of ice or you are getting to a stop sign, you tense up, or you are watching a scary movie or a loud noise happens, your body responds to that, and the body is meant to respond sympathetically, and then it is meant to relax parasympathetically. But for a lot of us women, we are in a perpetual state of sympathetic holding and protecting. What happens is that these alarm bells go off in our minds where there is danger, danger. All these little support structures are holding us, trying to keep us safe, and, in essence, locking us down. This is playing into the tension of the pelvic floor. 

Well, what do you think happens when you are about to have sex with a partner, or maybe you have a toy that you are using on yourself? There is that sense of surrender and relaxation as part of the process of pleasure. We need to let those few dental nerves know that there is something good and juicy coming, but yet that nerve is, Wait, what? But all day long, you have been telling me, danger or danger? Protect, protect. It gets confused. Then you get frustrated because you are cringing and your partner is trying to have sex with you. It is written all over your face. It is written in the body language you are protecting. That is a tough one. It is a big ball of yarn. It takes time to undo that. We want to understand that there are some really simple tips and techniques that, even before intercourse, you can just start doing. 

Diaphragmatic breathing is one that I always talk about. When you breathe, diaphragmatically,  you have taken 600% more oxygen. First of all, your cells are going to be receiving all this yummy oxygen. Then it is also telling the sympathetic nervous system to chill out. I am, this is going to be pleasurable. I am choosing this. I am safe. If that is how you are feeling, sometimes, I have had clients where the simple act of breathing can bring them into a state where they can enjoy sex. 

On the other hand, I had a young woman in her early 30s, who was a CrossFit athlete. She did a lot of Highland dance, so she had a lot of physical tension in her pelvic floor simply from her fitness and her movement in life. She came in tears to me because she was newly married. She said, Jana, on Wednesdays, in her words, she said, Wednesday nights are the nights that I let my husband back once a week.  She said all day on Tuesday and all day on Wednesday, my throat is clammy. My hands are sweaty because I am anticipating the pain that I am going to have to hide from him so that he can have his pleasure with his new wife. She said I am afraid that this marriage will not last because I want to be physical with him. But I just have so much pelvic floor pain. 

After about six weeks, we started working together. We were doing her breathing. She learned proper posture. We will talk about the Cooch Ball. She was using her Cooch Ball, and they were able to reconnect her confidence, and her sensuality was at a place where she did not have to be afraid of her pain anymore. I think within three or four months, they were expecting their first baby. It is important to know just how connected the mind and the body are when it comes to libido and sensuality. and it takes time. This is not to go and buy a pill and take it, and you are good to go understanding that your body, or, as I will say it this way, let your body humble you versus frustrate you or disappoint you. Because if you can shift that mindset, it will go a long way toward the process of moving from your pain to that pleasure.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I love all of this. I feel the safety thing is super important. One of the things that I talk to people about is that turning oneself on is an interior, inside job. Because I think it is so common that we are looking exteriorly to a partner, to a movie, to whatever it is to turn ourselves on. When we are doing some of the things that you are talking about, like diaphragmatic breathing, it is the art of turning ourselves on and getting ourselves into a state, you are saying, where we can be relaxed enough to be present to pleasure. I appreciate you bringing that up. 

With the safety thing, one of the things that I am thinking about as you are talking is as well, some of the research I see is, okay, as we age as women, one of the things that I am going to put this in air quotes here that is happening common is the loss of elasticity of our muscles. It is because our muscles do not move as well. That is connected to some of the pain that a lot of women experience, with the example you gave. I think it is really important what you are bringing up because this is not an aging, quote, unquote normal aging process. This is something that is almost a pathological aging process in many ways that we have labeled as normal because we do not have the tools, what you are talking about here? 

Talk to us a little bit more. Go for this woman or just the people you work with in general in your practice. Someone comes in; they are experiencing pain from sex or urinary incontinence. How are you working with them? How are you advising, and what are the tools that people can take away to start helping with their elasticity, pelvic floor dysfunction, and these sorts of things?

Jana Danielson

Yes.  The first thing we start having is a conversation, and I listen for cues. I listen to how they talk about that area. What they are saying, I have a problem down there or with my vagina? Sometimes they will not even use the vagina or pelvic floor. They will point and it gives me a starting point. One of the first things that I will give them to do is a piece of homework because many women have never looked at their anatomy or their vagina. What is it? Never mind. Touched it. Maybe it is a wipe after they go pee with toilet paper. That is it. 

You brought up a really good point that it does start internally with us with that sense of confidence. I think how we have been brought up and how religion has played a role in how we were brought up. And you said it; good girls do not do stuff like that. Do good girls have a vibrator in their lives? It is not a matter of good or bad. If we have to, it is. I am not going to rely on my husband to make dinner. I know how to make dinner. I know how to go. do these basic things. I should be able to do the same thing as essential sexually. When I am completely honest with my clients about this, the conversation begins. You can just see them starting to think, Huh, why? Why have I not thought about it this way? 

What I get them to do is they have to go and not share with anyone, but they have to go home. The first thing they have to do is take a picture of their vagina and look at it, or sit in front of a mirror and look at it. They do not have to touch if they do not want to yet. But we do get to that. Just understand that just as I have my deltoid, I have my glutes. I can easily touch those parts of my body. It is, and I am also aware that for some people there is trauma, and so that area for them is in part of their brain and their heart. I think it does not even exist. Treading softly around that and understanding: What are those past experiences that may be creating big blocks? 

That is why the breathing piece can be very emotional. I will get women to put one hand on their sternum and one hand on their belly, feel the inhalation and the exhalation, and make sure that the bottom hand is moving so that there can be air. Yes, air gets into the deep part of their body. Then we just start with basic movements, a little bit of a tuck of the tailbone. What does that feel like? A little bit of an arch of the spine. What does that feel like? Do you feel how, when you are doing these little undulations, there can be a little bit of a sensation in that part of your body? It is just turning on the connection between the mind and the body. What happens when I do this? What does that feel like when you do that? I will get them on what plot a reformer or whatever we are working on online and just ask those questions. It is a lot. What do you think? But what do you feel? What do you feel about that? 

We start to change some of the language and the dialog around how we talk about that area, and then we progress from there. That is why when, when this, when a lot of this is a fitness issue and you can improve your sensuality and sexuality function, of that part of your body, it makes it a little safer. Then we start getting into more of the movement piece. We check on things like hydration. Rate hydration is key when we are dehydrated. Our brain is the first part of our body to get hydrated. The vital organs are second, and then our muscles are fascia, which is key when it comes to pelvic floor health. The joint structures get hydrated last. If we are dehydrated, we are not going to feel sluggish, we are going to feel bloated. We are going to feel those things that do not make us feel sexy and juicy like we should. 

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I think there is so much there and the inaction of what is happening in those muscles, the pelvic floor muscles. It is almost like you are saying there is this disconnect. But, when it comes down to it, do these muscles operate any other muscles in the body? They need hydration, and they need movement. They need proper relaxation and stretching. Just any muscle in the body can hold trauma. I want to also mention that if anybody is listening to this and you are experiencing any of this if you have trauma come up, I think it is important to work with somebody that can help you process that. You are not, say, in a state where you are reactivating it and reliving it unless you are with somebody who is trained in how to do that. 

But I also find it, and I am curious about what you see in your work. I also find that oftentimes, aside from that, you are working with somebody who can help you with that trauma without retraumatizing it. But that aside, after doing some of these activities, working with these pelvic floor muscles almost starts to bring blood and it almost starts. Can it reconnect the neurologic connection? Because trauma can make us numb. We can numb out. We can go into this free state and use some of that tissue. It is almost like you said earlier; it does not exist anymore. Are you finding that when you are working with people with pelvic floor exercises, they can start to feel their musculature, that they can feel sensations from a vaginal perspective?

Jana Danielson

Yes.  I frame it so everyone, and I think everyone has heard of the Kegel. We all hear of Kegels. I frame what I do as beyond the Kegel because I find that in most cases, a Kegel is taught improperly. There are a lot of cases. It is taught to stop the flow of urine and then start the flow of urine, stop the flow of urine, and start the flow of urine. But here is the thing: Most women are already in a hyper-prone state; too much attention. Now they are stopping the flow of urine and seemingly starting the flow of urine. But if that pelvic floor were an elevator, they might be going to the 10th floor on the squeeze and maybe only the fourth floor on the release, not getting back down to the lobby. Now they are creating more dysfunction unknowingly, thinking they are doing the right thing. 

Unlike some of those big global muscles—our glutes, our quads, our biceps—the pelvic floor is very subtle. We want to think of it literally as a jellyfish or a mama octopus. Just floating in the water. There should never be forced movement, even when we are having a bowel movement. I should say this because it reminded me that there is more than just urinary incontinence; there can also be fecal incontinence. That is a pelvic floor issue. If we are not talking about the pelvic floor from a urinary perspective, we are not talking about it from a fecal perspective. Just understand that if that is you as well, that is the pelvic floor. This stuff we are talking about can check some of the boxes. 

When you understand that, it is the subtlety. There is that story of the Princess and the Pea, where she is sleeping on 21 mattresses and she can still feel that latter pea. It is kind of that. You want to get to a point where you use as little effort as possible to create an elevator moving up or down. That is when true mastery of the pelvic floor can happen. We start with the basics, We start with kindergarten. Just feel it move, and then from there, we get more and more into the nuance and the subtlety of it, because it is in the subtlety of the lift and lower that the true strengthening and function occur.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

It is such a good analogy. I love that so much, and I think it is just that it is a product of our society. It is that we go to the gym, and when we think about the fitness of the body, most of us have a tendency in our society to be, Okay, let us make sure we get our lifting in, our hit training, our cardio, and then maybe we will see if we can squeeze in some stretching somewhere or maybe not. I think this is a product of our society around, It pushes enough hard to push an effort, but you bring up so much in that analogy around, what about that relaxed thing? What about that softening? What about that stretching? What about letting go? All of it is those different things. Talk to us a little bit about Cooch Ball, your program, and your product, because it is super helpful for what you are offering to integrate all these things you are talking about.

Jana Danielson

Yes. The missing piece, the way I look at pelvic floor health, is through the three B’s. The three B’s are body position, also known as posture. What is the optimal seated position? Well, it is using those bony bones kind of your feet. You want to be on top of them with good spinal alignment. When you are standing, you want to have 60% of your weight on your heel bone. That big calcaneus bone is 40% across the metatarsals, which are the widest part of the foot. That is the quick and dirty on-body position. We talked about breathing diaphragmatic, that is the other B and the third B, that is missing is blood flow. Just a plant needs water and sunlight to grow. Our muscles need the oxygen-rich, nutrient-rich blood that runs through our body. The pelvic floor is an area that does not get a lot of that automatically. 

The Cooch Ball was the answer, and I keep mine. It is simple, I created this product because, as a mom of three boys, I went downstairs to their toy box. They were much younger than they are now when I was creating this. They had all kinds of slower hockey balls, mini basketballs, and all these things. I just thought to myself: based on some work I did with a gynecologist in the U.S. a year ago, I know the pelvic floor does not work on its own. I know it has those vocal recruiters. I also know through the research that is out there in the fitness industry that using a foam roller on your IT bands on the side of your legs or your quads can help with knee pain. We know that people will use a tennis ball for shoulder discomfort. We know there is myofascial release in the massage world. That was my big question: how do you bring blood flow to the pelvic floor in a way that does not require the $2,000 package of the Emsella machine? I am a huge proponent of pelvic floor physiotherapy. What could work in conjunction with pelvic floor physiotherapy? 

That is where the Cooch Ball was born. It is patented, which means that it is one of a kind based on the cool nylon threading that we do on the bladder in the ball. Here is how it works. It is a three-minute-a-day commitment. You sit on the ball, on a chair, on the floor, on your couch, or on your bed, depending on your ouch factor, because there will be an ouch factor. Here is what I can tell you. The ouch factor has a direct relationship to the health of that area of your body. If you get on this ball and you are, What the hell? Maybe go off of your kitchen floor and go sit on your couch, or the couch can take a little bit of the ball, the brunt of the ball from the body. But is it an eye-opener? It means those muscles, if they were plants, have not had sunlight or water in a long time. They do not know what you are doing, and they think, What is this? Ouch? 

You start slow and steady, and what you do is, while you are sitting on the ball, breathing diaphragmatically with the weight of the body on the ball, and use it with a little bit of squish in it. It creates this beautiful myofascial release in that fascial tissue that is holding the muscles so tight that it will not let blood flow through. That muscle is suffocating among this fascia. The nerves and those communication lines are disrupted. Through this, as you work up to the three-minute experience, the diaphragmatic breathing is telling your brain, I am choosing this. I am safe; I am okay. It is feeding those cells the oxygen they need to respond to the release of the body on the ball. You come off the ball; you feel tingly and warm. That is blood flow. Any time there is warmth or tingling, that is how, with confidence, you just do CPR for the pelvic floor. You have just brought in that life source. 

Then, in the meantime, you will start to notice chronically tight hips and low-grade back pain start to melt away. You might notice constipation starting to correct itself. You may notice sciatica that has been flaring up and going away. This is not just a one-trick pony. I use it for gut health. I use it on my psoas, as I use it just on my face to get some blood flow to my face. That is really how the beach ball was born. It is also meant to be a conversation starter. It is called the Cooch Ball, it has a little bit of a sassy personality, and it does. Women ask, What is it? How do I use it? I always say to women, Imagine 30 days from now when you are sleeping through the night because you do not have to wake up to go to the bathroom. Imagine having the best sex of your life. Imagine having that confidence and sensuality back, and it is supposed to be simple. That is the thing. I think for many of us who have gone through health journeys and have had major hiccups, it can get very complicated very quickly. I just wanted something simple.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Yes, I love it. I love it. You are so kind to send me one. I love mine. It is part of my pelvic floor health routine. I think it is a super, just these kinds of tools, you said, that are so easy to use. Takes 3 minutes. It is not a lot of time. It is not a huge investment. Why not do something so simple that is a really useful tool? You sit on this, you can do your diaphragmatic breathing at the same time, and you get deeper into your relaxing state and all of that stuff. Let us tell everybody how they can find you.

Jana Danielson

Yes, so you can. On Instagram, I am at the Cooch Ball or Jana dot Danielson, and I always leave this open invitation. Please reach out and direct message me. I know sometimes it is easy to feel alone. I just saw a new stat last week. The stat used to be that one in three women had some sort of pelvic floor dysfunction. The new stat is that one in two women has some sort of pelvic floor dysfunction. You are not alone. It shows up in lots of different ways, shapes, and forms. I am happy to connect and maybe shed a little bit of light on what is going on for you.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

Perfect. Then that just reminds me of one of the statistics that I know of the fact that when we talk about sex and pelvic floor dysfunction, talking about it normalizes it and improves it. I think it is an amazing thing to just offer that level of connection for people because I think that is what it is. We look at what happens with the research on social isolation and loneliness and how that impacts the sympathetic nervous system. Of course, that would trickle down to that fight or flight you have been talking about into the pelvic floor muscles and that sort of thing. 

And you guys, Jana’s giving us an offer; she is going to have an offer for you guys, so make sure you look for this. It is going to be related to pelvic floor health. That is a surprise for you to find in your opt-in section of the summit, and just make sure you find her on CoochBall.com. Thank you again so much for being with us today.

Jana Danielson

Dr. Diane, thanks for having me.

Diane Mueller, ND, DAOM, LAc

All right, everybody, we will see you in the next one.