Uncover The Essential Tool For Your Health Toolbox

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Of course. Before we came online today, you said that I had to stress the retired part. It is not that you are not working.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

No, I am still working.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

You are doing your thing and making a foundational, fundamental difference for people on a cancer journey because you are doing that. But your path became a little circuitous. You had a little bit of a shift, a change, a few years ago. Can you share your story with us? What got you into the cancer space? Because I know that that is a very personal motivation for you, as it is for most of us. Can you share what got you into space and where your journey took you?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I would love to. I started in the oncology space because my dad was diagnosed with colon cancer when I was in my late teens; he was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer. I took on the role, of many of you, listening to the Summit of the Health Advocate, the researcher trying to find all of the best resources for my dad as he went through his colon cancer journey as a young adult in my late teens and early twenties. He passed away from colon cancer when I was just 22 years old. I was in there advocating for him to maybe have less chemotherapy because we know from the research that colon cancer does not necessarily have the best response rates to chemotherapy. This was a long time ago. There were no immunotherapies on the market at that time. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

When was this?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

This was in the year my dad passed away in 2001. This was a while ago. The cancer treatments available then were so different from what we have available now and what I would advocate for my patients when I was in practice. As you know, oncology is not necessarily super diet forward, and now, I am putting a lot of stress behind me.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That is fine.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Well, I practice integrative oncology, so I understand both sides of the coin. I was in there just advocating for my dad to make some diet changes and go through a little bit less chemotherapy than he was receiving. Being the first person to tell him that his diagnosis was terminal. My dad’s doctors were talking to him honestly about the statistics and outcomes. I was in the research library at my university, pulling up research studies and showing some of the data to my family members, who were pushing him to do more and more treatments. As we know, sometimes there is more and more treatment is not the solution. 

That is how I got started in oncology—just being a health advocate for my dad. As he was in the active dying phase of his life, which is such a beautiful place to be in the human spectrum, I cherish the moments that we get to be with people in the birthing phase. As I have sat in births and cot babies and the dying, phase two is a precious space of all of our human existence. When I was in that part of the journey with my dad, I came across the word naturopathic medicine. These were doctors who wanted to heal the whole person, who wanted to heal people throughout the entire spectrum of their lives, which I felt was lacking in my dad’s cancer experience.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Your dad had a very traditional cancer.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Very traditional.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

For those listeners who are not aware of what naturopathy is and what it stands for, can you just give us a brief background?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Naturopathic doctors go through four years of medical school, and we get trained in the same medical sciences as any other physician that you see. What is different about Naturopathic Medical School is that we are also trained in herbs and diet and acupuncture, a chiropractic type of manipulation. Our viewpoint is to use as much as possible natural medicine to heal the whole person—physically, spiritually, mentally—that whole mind-body connection that is sometimes a reference, but we do not know how we get there. How do we treat a person from a mind-body perspective? 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Your father inspired you to take a natural path, and you were naturally drawn to the cancer space. Tell us a little bit about that and your work in the cancer space.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

My work in the cancer space started in a traditional hospital, so I did a residency in Indiana, part of Indiana University’s health system, and was in the thick of the chemo infusion room, surgical suites, all of those things, but providing a naturopathic perspective. What supplements could somebody be taking to reduce side effects from chemotherapy, improve their healing from surgery, or stay energized during radiation therapy? That was my role, was to support people who were going through conventional treatments.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Now that is pretty progressive. You must have been working at a hospital where people were fairly open-minded because that is not even happening with any regularity now.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It was, and it is an interesting location. The hospital is located in Amish County, Indiana. They brought in naturopaths to help connect with their community. They noticed that their community was not coming to the hospital because they were scared and it was not part of their religious paradigm. Having naturopathic doctors in the hospital helped them connect to their community and give their community members the treatments that they needed.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That makes a lot of sense. I am sure that they must have been tremendously grateful. Because it allowed them to relate to the treatment in a way that they could not.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. Allowed a safe container for this community to come get here.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I am assuming it grew from there because you did have your naturopathic oncology practice.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. After residency, I went back to Arizona, where we have a very wide scope of practice, and started doing naturopathic oncology there in a private practice setting, which is still integrative. I still worked closely with medical oncologists, surgical oncologists, and radiation oncologists in my city, Arizona.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

How did you find that relationship? Because oftentimes, that relationship can be difficult.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, well, it would depend on the oncologist. I had great relationships with some oncologists who would refer patients to me. I worked in some radiation oncology offices for a couple of years, as well as part of their integrative team. Sometimes it was super easy, and sometimes it was not as easy as you have probably experienced. Or if you have experience.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That is a relationship difficulty hurdle that a lot of people in this summit are now facing. The people who are listening to the summit want to do everything. They are often working with traditional medical doctors who do not know, who do not understand, and with traditional medical doctors in general. Of course, there are going to be exceptions, but in general, they tend to pooh-pooh and dismiss the things that they do not understand. 

Because I was trained under that system, I understand it. They consider all of this information, which, if it were true or important, would have been taught to them during their training. Since it was not, it can neither be true nor important, and it makes the working relationship between the patient and them very challenging because, on our side of it, on the integrative side of it, we are not saying do not do that. We are saying, do it all. You cannot have one without the other. Does it work? People who were just going through traditional treatment are never figuring out their why never correcting their environment, and never eliminating their triggers. They stay on that same health trajectory, which means that you have breast cancer and then you have the next diagnosis, and then you have the next diagnosis until eventually you meet the diagnosis that you are not going to be able to overcome.

Whereas the people who are seeing this through an integrative lens are just getting the traditional treatments because, oftentimes, they are scared not to and I get it. But they are also making significant steps towards optimizing their environment. They are changing their diet, they are changing their movement, they are changing their sleep, and they are changing their toxicity and toxin exposure. They are changing their detoxification practices. They are also changing their macroenvironment. What they are allowing to affect them. They have very different outcomes because it is what you get in that determines what you get out. How do you help people who are in that position where they are struggling with their providers? How do you help them to build a bridge or mend a fence?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. One of the tenets that we subscribe to in naturopathic medicine is that a doctor is a teacher. I take that teaching role very seriously, and that includes teaching my patients or my clients how to communicate with the other doctors who are on their team. That also includes me as an effective communicator. I would make sure I sent notes and letters to other providers that were on their team that cited and referenced research studies as to, Why are using fish oil now. What is the effect? Why are we recommending glutamine for this chemotherapy side effect? Why are we taking alpha-lipoic acid for neuropathy? I would send articles and, at least, cited letters to the other providers that were on the team. 

That is how I built a bridge, because we behind-the-scenes doctors, no matter what you are practicing, speak a similar language, and we know how to show reference studies and how to talk to each other in the same doctor’s language. I would do that on behalf of my patients, and then I would educate my patients about it. This is why we are doing this particular therapy at this moment. We might stop it in the future. But it is important now because these are all the things that it is doing. I found that the most effective tool if you are having a hard time building a bridge with your three care providers, is communication. Clear, emotional, research-based communication. Then it opens everybody up to talking back and forth about what is going on with a patient.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes, that is an excellent point. That is the main thing: communication is key for everything. You started to mention some nutrients, and I would love to dive a little deeper into those from a naturopathic perspective. You mentioned fish oil and alpha lipoic acid, and there are a bunch of people who have breast cancer or have had breast cancer who are wondering about certain nutrients in fish oil and what the benefits are, not only for alpha lipoic acid but also turmeric. They are phytoestrogens. Can you talk a little bit about the nutrients that you use most in cases of breast cancer and why?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Sure. Well, let me back that question up a little bit because it is important for us to acknowledge that not all breast cancers are the same. We have different hormonal markers that we are addressing in different types of breast cancer. What might be recommended for estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer might not be the same thing that we would recommend for estrogen receptor-negative breast cancer. There are a lot of different factors that would go into determining what would be the best fit for a particular person’s breast cancer. In my practice, we would also measure hormone status to see: How are your estrogens? Are they elevated? Are they being blocked by your aromatase inhibitor? Are they still being produced despite being on estrogen-suppressing medications? these are things that are also important points to decide what are the right nutrients for the person.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

What test would you like to use for measuring people’s hormone status?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

We would just use serum testing because, from my viewpoint, I knew that there was a lot of debate about the best way to test hormones. We will not get into that debate here. But my viewpoint was, let us use what is covered by insurance as much as possible since a lot of your therapies and integrative therapies are being paid for out of pocket. If there is something that I can get enough information from that your insurance is going to cover, let us use that. We would use just the normal oral estrogens, estradiol, and estrone testing, normal serum testosterone and serum progesterone levels as well without getting too far down the rabbit hole unless somebody’s tests were shifting with the right supplementation, so then we might go further and do some saliva testing or some urine testing. It would depend on the individual, on their budget, and on using insurance as much as possible.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Then what about downstream metabolites? Were you not looking at those?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Only if the tests were shifting. Because I had been doing this for a long time I knew when therapies were working based on the serum testing. But if the testing was not shifting, then we would order some of those urine tests and look at downstream metabolites. But most of my patients did not need that extra investigative step or that extra expense in their therapies. Mm hmm.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

You would make recommendations based on hormone-positive tumors versus hormone-negative tumors. HER2-positive tumors. These are the considerations that you were using to determine recommendations.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Exactly. just as your conventional oncologist does. We need to have all the information about your body and about your tumor and then take a step back, a broader step, and look at not just the tumor dynamics but your whole body. You mentioned, Dr. Simmons, and you mentioned the other influences that could be impacting your risk for cancer or cancer cell growth. If you were a hairdresser, we would look at the circulating metabolites of all of the hair sprays, shampoos, and dyes that you might be exposed to. Or if I had a patient who was part of a remediation lawsuit for plastics that got into the water in their community. 

Things like that, that we dig a little bit deeper and see what is going on with your body that is making you susceptible to cancer. Because, just like any other disease, we have a susceptibility, and then we have to identify that susceptibility and treat that susceptibility. But some general things have been studied for breast cancer: green tea EGCG, which is effective for aspirin receptor-positive and estrogen receptor-negative breast cancers, and her two new positive breast cancers. Some general things seem to be supportive for all breast cancer types, but then there are things to dig deeper into for you and your body.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

What are the benefits of green tea? People need to know why they are doing things. What are the benefits of green tea? Why should people who have breast cancer drink green tea?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Well, that is a great question. EGCG, or one of the polyphenols that are in green tea, has been shown to block angiogenesis, or the blood vessel formation of breast cancer cell lines, and can also influence estrogen receptor sensitivity. It can help reduce the sensitivity to estrogen in breast cancer cells. The other polyphenols that are in green tea are great as anti-inflammatory and antioxidants. There are so many different reasons to drink green tea, but that is just one example. Another example that hits against all different types of breast cancer is flax seeds. Flax seeds block estrogen receptors and estrogen receptor-negative breast cancer. It blocks tumor growth and her two new positive breast cancers. It reduces HER2-new expression. There are some of these things that can impact multiple types of breast cancer.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It is interesting because flax is a phytoestrogen. It is a plant estrogen. People get confused by that because they do not understand if they have a hormone-positive tumor or how adding more estrogen to the system would help. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

This is a very confusing topic, which is why I still teach at the Naturopathic Medical School in Arizona. I teach oncology there, and I have for over 10 years. I have my students answer this question because it is very complicated. What we consider fatal estrogens is just an umbrella term for a botanical that might stimulate estrogen or might stimulate estrogen receptors in the body. But the thing is, we have estrogen receptors in different parts of our body, not just in our breasts. We have receptors in our bones. That is why estrogen is important for bone density. We have estrogen receptors in our uterus and our ovaries. Sometimes, it can happen.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Our brain, our skin, and our hearts are everywhere.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Sometimes a plant can stimulate certain types of estrogen receptors and block other types of estrogen receptors. In breast cancer, what is specifically looked at for blocking is estrogen receptor beta. We might be able to block estrogen receptor beta with a plant product, but it might stimulate estrogen receptor alpha. We have to take this into account, which is why working with people who understand these nuances is important. We have to take a step back, look a little deeper, and say, What about what flaxseed is doing in breast cancer cells? 

Well, in breast cancer cells, it is the estrogen receptor beta. It does not raise estradiol or serum estrone. We are not worried about it creating more circulating estrogen. It blocks a specific antigen receptor that is linked to breast cancer cell growth. Another phytoestrogen that I used to get a lot of questions about is red clover, which is in the ciac formula, so people come across that herbal lot, and red clover does not have those same benefits for estrogen receptor beta. We have to take it a step deeper than just saying it is a phytoestrogen and say, yes, it is a phytoestrogen, but what is it doing in these particular cells?

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I would feel remiss if we did not talk about soy because it falls into a similar category as flax. I have heard people who are working with traditional medical oncologists there specifically called out, so they are told to not eat soy and not eat flax. Can you talk about soy a little bit and how that looks as a molecule?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. Well, let us say I always point to the data. For example, with flax seeds, women took two tablespoons of ground flax seeds per day before their breast cancer surgery. They have already been identified with breast cancer. They were not eating flax seeds before they introduced flax seeds in this study. They were shown a regression of the disease compared to the group that did not pick flax seeds before.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

You are talking about no one eating flax seeds before their diagnosis. Then they took two groups of people and gave one tablespoon of flax to each other. They did not have flaws. At the time of their surgical excision, their definitive excision, however many weeks later that was, they found the tumor to be less aggressive. The tumor markers, the proliferation markers Ki 67, or something like that. This also showed down.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It also reduced in size between their diagnosis and the evidence of how long.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Do you know what the period of how long that was?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

They were taking flax seeds for approximately four weeks.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

With soy, we have studies about soy too. They are similar but not a clearer study as that. Soy is looked at more on a broader epidemiological scale. Women who ingest more soy products are less likely to have breast cancer. What does that mean once you get diagnosed with breast cancer? There has been a debate about this. I am going to be clear about that. It is not a clear-cut answer. There is some concern about the GMO component of soy and how that might be influenced.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

What do you think of that? That is very real.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, for sure. We know that cattle and animals that are fed GMO-enriched feed are more likely to express tumors. It would make sense that that would apply to humans as well.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Just to be clear, everyone knows what we are talking about when we are talking about GMOs—we are talking about genetically modified food. We have changed the DNA. We have essentially intentionally mutated the DNA to make crops yield more groves faster and grow bigger. I always use the example of wheat. Einkorn, wheat is the wheat of our ancestors. That is the wheat of biblical times, which had 14 chromosomes. When people eat einkorn wheat, we can digest that because it is the wheat that we have been consuming for thousands and thousands of years. Fast forward to the 1950s, when we mutated that wheat to become dwarf wheat, and we did that so that it would yield more seeds and so that we could make more flour. A dwarf wheat has 44 chromosomes. All of a sudden, our gluten problem in this country did not come from anywhere. It came from the fact that we genetically modified wheat. Now it is a substance that our body has, and our genetics have not been able to catch up, and we do not recognize that as food. Now we have all of these people responding, and we call it gluten sensitivity. But it is just because your body does not see that as food. That is not just happening with wheat. That is happening with corn, it is happening with soy. Am I missing any other major crops that we are doing that with?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Those are the major ones. There are other smaller ones as well. But that is part of why I love my life now in Peru, because the Peruvian culture takes seriously their heritage corn and their heritage potatoes. Here in Peru, it is, and if I go to the market, I can see at least 15 different types of corn. They can have over 100 different types of potatoes, this diversity.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That is growing naturally?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Growing naturally. Yes.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

If there are changes, it is because of cross-pollination from the wind and not because we have spliced these two things together to create something else. Let us talk about Peru. What do you do in there?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I am living my dream life. I live next to an organic farm. I am in nature. I am implementing the lifestyles and things that we talk about in integrative and functional medicine and living it. I have water that comes from a glacier into my house; I have fresh air; I have fresh food; and it is at a much slower pace than in the United States. Cortisol naturally resolves itself instead of being stuck in my car on a freeway. I am walking, as I did during this interview. I have seen a bullwalk by my house. I am walking to town and living a more natural lifestyle.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It sounds idyllic, and we can certainly, on an imaginary level, understand why you made that move. But most people do not pick up their lives and move to Peru. Can you talk to us a little bit about that process, what made you do it and how did that change look different for you? What accommodations did you make to go there? How were you practicing before? How are you practicing now?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

There are a lot of questions. Sorry.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

That is a lot of questions, but I will do my best. You can go interrupt me. Peru came about. How this change came about is that I was looking into ways to help my patients resolve the trauma of being diagnosed with cancer or the trauma that happened in their lives that made them susceptible to cancer growth. Just as environmental chemicals and GMO foods can make us susceptible to tumor growth, so can our childhood environment or having a traumatic life event, or is it this? Always fascinated me from the beginning of my studies. There was a study that highlighted that women were more likely to get diagnosed with breast cancer 18 months after a traumatic life event.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I see that in my practice universally. It is one of the first questions that I ask people when they tell me that they have a breast cancer diagnosis. I say, Tell me about the last two years of your life. It is always there.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It is always so interesting. You might not if you are listening to this and are, I have not had a trauma. We are talking about big traumas, little traumas, and emotional trauma in relationships. It might be hard for you to identify what that traumatic event might be, or it might be easy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

There are things that we do not necessarily categorize as trauma that are very stressful and therefore traumatic. Everyone thinks that when you talk about trauma, they think of getting into a car accident, having a tree fall on you, or something crazy. But a divorce is traumatic. A loss—a death in the family, the death of a friend, or the loss of a relationship—is traumatic. A divorce is traumatic. A job. A new job, a loss of a job, or a move are some of the most traumatic things that can happen. It is the third-most traumatic thing that can happen to you as a move. There are these things that we just do not think about. A remodel of your home can be traumatic because of the stress of doing all of that. Plus all of that chemical exposure. The birth of a child, as joyous as it is, is traumatic. People do not think about that. Trauma comes in all different forms. I am so glad you brought that up. How do you assess trauma in your patient population?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Part of my new patient intake paperwork was for my patients to fill out the ACE test. That is looking at adverse childhood events. They did not have to share with me what those adverse childhood events were, but they just had to share with me what their score was. Then if they wanted to talk about it in our consultation, we could. One of the things that’s delicate about trauma is that sometimes talking about it re-initiates a traumatic response in the body and makes your cortisol and your blood pressure go up. I would walk into that with people very mindfully and with permission. That is one way I would assess trauma: with the adverse childhood events score. 

Then, just as you said, what is been going on for you and the past year, past two years, has anything been challenging in your life, good challenges or bad challenges? We would talk about that. The research also shows that just hearing the words you have cancer is a traumatic event and puts people on the PTSD scale in a measurable way. Maybe you cannot identify a trauma before hearing the words you have cancer, but fearing you have cancer is what your next steps are; this is considered a traumatic event and such, depending on caregivers as well. The co-survivors also score very high and sometimes higher than the person with cancer on the post-traumatic stress scale.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I do not know if you have seen this in your practice. I have seen it in mine where I am seeing women for breast cancer who have just journeyed with their spouse through prostate cancer or colon cancer, or they are being diagnosed essentially where this diagnosis is just shortly following their year as a caregiver.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, it is very common. It is been shown in research studies that caregivers are co-survivors of people who have cancer. You are talking about, a woman who was diagnosed with breast cancer after her husband went through prostate cancer treatment. They are likely to be very likely to be diagnosed with cancer within 12 to 18 months of their partner’s diagnosis. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

For sure. I am the same as you in that dealing with the trauma is beyond the scope of what I do. But I have on occasion referred people to programs to help them deal with the trauma. What are you advising people in that area?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

There are so many ways to address this. You can go to a therapist who specializes in trauma. You can do somatic practices. Then what landed me in Peru as I was researching some ways to address trauma is that there are plant medicines that have been used for centuries to treat these parts of our brain that are otherwise inaccessible. Because one of the things that trauma does is block off parts of our neural pathways and parts of our neuroplasticity and say, We are not going to look over. Do not look over here. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

It is that protection mechanism. It is only protective so that you do not have to relive that trauma every day again and again. It does it to make you feel safe.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Exactly. We have to sometimes use some things that override those safety and protective mechanisms to get to that part of ourselves.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I love where this is going. It is a delicious conversation to talk about plant medicines. Are there specific plants that you deal with?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I specifically collaborate with Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is native to Peru, in the jungles of Peru. It has been used here for centuries and is protected by law as a heritage plant because it has been used here for so long to help people in their healing process. Other plants are used in oncology research; Psilocybin is being studied thoroughly at Johns Hopkins for people with stage 4 cancer as a way to help them heal from their cancer process. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

I am hopeful that that will come off of a clinical trial and be widely available soon because the results are astounding. Not just in survival because they are seeing increased survival with psilocybin, but in the improvement of quality of life, which ultimately are the two things that we are after. For the rest of us, it does not matter if we have people living longer, but the quality of their lives is not great. I am not sure that we have accomplished anything. I find myself in a quandary often, when we see these studies come out with these chemotherapeutic drugs that are approved because they extend life by eight weeks. But it is eight weeks of misery for these people. I hear all these people celebrating music dances, and I am just not sure what they are celebrating. If we can both extend life and give people a meaningful quality of life, that is something to celebrate. That is an accomplishment. Do you want to talk about the Ayahuasca experience a little bit for people? I am sure they are curious.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It depends on who you are sitting with and what your experience will be. But I have been training and studying at the mestizaje here in Peru. It is very important to acknowledge that there are groups of people who have been working with these plant medicines for centuries, even though they are new in clinical trial research or a medical model. There are groups of people who have been working with these plants and collaborating with them.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

New to us, but not new.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Right. It is important. With ayahuasca, the setting that I have been training in is a group setting where there is a group of people gathered to do a ceremony together. Part of that ceremonial experience includes music and songs because, in the lineage of mestizaje medicine, it is thought that plants communicate through vibration and song. We are learning this more in our Western minds. If you have ever seen, some people are making music with plants now. They are connecting electrodes to the leaves of different planets.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

 But this is very real. You can even notice, if you have certain music on, you can notice that your plants start to face. When you are looking at how your plants grow, either towards the sunlight or towards the energy, you know that these plants are living beings who completely understand what is going on, and all of the information around mushrooms and mycelium, this are all connected. This is a network of life that is connected, so there is absolutely a communication system going on.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. We try to tap into that. The way that we tap into that in ceremony is through music, through song, and that is an integral part of an ayahuasca ceremony; the songs are sung to the plants, acknowledging the plant’s presence in the ceremony. We are not just singing to Ayahuasca. There are many other plants, and you are probably reading about them if you are Googling about breast cancer that is in the jungle. We sing in ceremonies to help with people’s healing processes. Things like Cat’s Claw that you might be coming across in a Whole Foods market or Graviola: I always got so many questions about Graviola in my practice, and now I am in the jungle, where Graviola grows. There are so many plants that collaborate in the healing of the human body outside of ayahuasca, but collaborating with ayahuasca.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

In addition to Ayahuasca, can you talk about some other plants? I know that you mentioned Cats Claw and Graviola. Are there others who are part of this ceremony?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. One of the ways to work with the plants is to do a dieta, which is very serious work, where you go into the jungle, you are given a hut in isolation, and you are given a very strict diet. Then you have tea delivered to your hut, and you drink those teas every day, those teas can include many different plants, depending on what tradition you are working with. But one plant that is common across multiple traditions is the Narkya tree. The bark of the tree is used for healing, and it can be used for multiple different things. But specifically in cancer cells, it has been shown to block tumor growth and reduce angiogenesis in lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, and colon cancer. There is a reason to use it in oncology. Same with Cat’s claws. Cat’s Claw is great for reducing COX-2 inflammation. We know that this type of inflammation stimulates tumor growth and then helps balance out the immune response. People who express tumor cells have an imbalanced immune response; part of their immune system is overworking, and part of their immune system is underworking. When we can bring those two sides of the immune system into balance, it can recognize tumor cells and help destroy tumor cells in the body.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

That is an excellent point: so often we are not talking about the role of the immune system in the breast cancer process, and our immune system is supposed to recognize cancer cells in their infancy and try to correct that process. But because we live in this overly stressed, taxed state, we are essentially walking around in a state of being immunocompromised. Because if we are in that fight or flight state, we are cortisol dominant, and our body only understands primitive responses. If we are in that sympathetic state, that fight or flight state, all we understand is that there is a Saber-tooth tiger around. 

You do not need to worry about dying of a cold if the Saber-tooth tiger is there because you first have to get away from the tiger. We are sending all our resources to our muscles and away from our immune system. Breast cancer is an immune system dysfunction. Then the traditional treatments for breast cancer make that worse. They further inhibit our immune system and further complicate that issue for people. All of these immune modulators that you are talking about are to reset that system, and the immune system should come back online so that it can participate in your healing and restoration.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It restores the physical properties of our cells. But then, energetically, Narkya is known in the jungle to help people be more strong in their feminine sense of themselves. But with strong boundaries and a firm sense of who you are, a firm sense of self. Sometimes that sense of self gets eroded through our cancer treatments. Or maybe in those traumatic things that happened before your cancer treatments.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Or more than just that, you have cancer. That is enough to erode that sense of self because you are in a position where you no longer trust your body. You no longer trust your health. You do not understand what is happening or why it is happening so that alone can do it.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I love having them, and I call them allies or collaborators because that’s how I truly feel about these plans. It is not as if we are not taking a supplement; we are connecting with something that has been put on this planet to help us heal. We have to be in a collaborative relationship. It connects us to our medicine—the medicine that is right for our situation. I find that in the way that sometimes I used to prescribe supplements, I will just talk about myself. The way that I used to prescribe supplements was not always in this dynamic relationship with the supplement; it was not always in a dynamic relationship with curcumin. But with these plans from the jungle, they have had these collaborative relationships with humans for centuries. They are used to being sung to, and they are used to being in a relationship. It is possible that you could sing to your green tea capsules. I do not know. I have not tried it. But it is just a different way to see how the human body heals. I have seen amazing things happen to people.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Interestingly, you said that because, quite frankly, if you are singing to your cup of green tea, whether or not there is a transfer of energy, there is certainly something energetically happening in you because we know that singing is one of the triggers for the parasympathetic state. Singing puts you in that rest-and-repair state. Music is putting you in that rest-and-repair state. Maybe there is something to sing to your green tea.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. That puts you when you are in rest and repair, then you are receptive. When we are in fight or flight, we are blocking things from coming in. We do not feel safe. With that receptivity, maybe we can have a greater collaboration with the plants that are trying to be part of our healing process.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

How long is this process when you are working with someone, and am I pronouncing it right? Dieta?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. Dieta is Spanish for diet. If you were to Google it, you could have something like a gluten-free dieta, but that is a diet in a traditional sense is this a collaboration with plant medicine for healing?

Jennifer Simmons, MD

How long have people been with you on this healing journey?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It can be as few as ten days or as many as 30 days.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Wow, this is amazing. A couple of minutes ago, you brought up curcumin. That is one of the isolates that comes out of turmeric. Turmeric is another one of those highly controversial foods. In that regard, many medical oncology sites advise against it for people who haven hormone-positive tumors. Let us talk about what that plant is, what that plant is doing, and why medical oncologists are afraid of it.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I have no idea why medical oncologists are afraid of it. I cannot speak to their fear, but what I can say is that turmeric is a root that has been used. Also, a plant ally that has been used for centuries all over the world. Part of what drove the spice trade was turmeric. Turmeric and cinnamon were part of what drove the spice trade. It is an important plant ally for reducing inflammation and reducing Cox-2 expression, which is an inflammatory marker that can stimulate tumor growth. It is important for bringing down insulin-growth factors, which can also stimulate tumor growth. It is important for the liver and for stimulating liver cell health. I find it a great collaborator after liver-damaging situations with chemotherapy or anesthesia post-surgery. 

The benefits of curcumin in my mind’s eye, outweigh whatever might be creating some fear in conventional oncology, and it has not been shown to stimulate estrogen receptors. It has been shown in my studies and in vitro studies to block breast cancer cell growth. The fear around it is boggling to me, but the benefits of it can be many. If you choose to use turmeric in its natural plant form as a root, it is best to use it as it is traditionally prepared, which is typically in curries with coconut milk and oils. The fats help us absorb the curcuminoids, the beneficial plant, polyphenols, and then the other things you put in curries as other spices—black pepper—all these things help with the absorption of curcuminoids.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Although I have a theory that part of it is what we absorb and part of it is what we do not absorb because it benefits our microbiome.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Sure.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

The fact that most of it is not absorbed is okay. Because it is not absorbed for a reason that benefits our microbiome. What I hear from medical oncologists, and I do not know if this is your experience or not, but that turmeric is used during chemotherapy because it has such strong antioxidant properties, and most of the chemotherapeutic drugs work by creating free radicals. They do not want to interfere with that process. That is one reason I hear. Another reason I hear is the same thing, along with radiation: that radiation creates free radicals, and they do not want you to interfere with that process because turmeric, because of its anti-inflammatory properties, would bind some of those free radicals. Then, about Tamoxifen, because tamoxifen is in its pre-form, it has to be converted to its active form, which is endoxifen. The way that it happens is that it goes through liver enzymes. The cyp enzymes. It is the 3a4 and 2d6. Turmeric can block those enzymes, so it would render tamoxifen ineffective. It is my opinion that none of that is true and that we are better off taking tamoxifen and turmeric than we are taking tamoxifen. But that is just my opinion. I do not think that the data against turmeric is convincing enough that there have been this many studies that go both ways.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, this goes to knowing the drug-nutrient impact. When you are talking about chemotherapy and turmeric, there are some chemotherapeutic side effects, increase efficacy is sensitized when you use turmeric, same with radiation; turmeric sensitizes cancer cells to radiation. One of my favorite doctors that I got to collaborate with in my residency. He is a radiation oncologist on the cutting edge of radiation oncology and one of the first people to ever implant a localized radiation device into the breast. Very advanced in his application of radiation. 

He used to tell me, and I would say, Dr. Wheeler, this person has sinusitis and has a virus going on now. Is it okay if I give them a couple of thousand milligrams of vitamin C so that they can stay on treatment and not go home with a fever? He had been like, Why are you asking me this? Am I asking them how many oranges per day they are eating? Am I asking them if they ate a cup of berries today? Because that has the same antioxidant potential as these couple thousand milligrams of vitamin C. Do not worry about it. Until my profession starts getting focused on all of the plant polyphenols and antioxidants that are available through diet, anything that we see about antioxidants is rubbish, is what he tells me. He would say that for radiation to work, we have to create free radicals. But what we see in our patients is that they start running out of free radicals within a couple of weeks of treatment. That is why they start getting tired. That is why they get skin impacts.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Because they cannot neutralize them.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, and if we cannot.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

From the beginning.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes. If we cannot, if we do not have oxidants and antioxidants to create free radicals, then our therapy is null and void. We can only do so much pro-oxidation without balancing it out. With some antioxidants to continue the cycle of pro-oxidation. This is one of the techniques that we would use in my clinical practice. We do IV vitamin C at a very low dose because high-dose vitamin C is a pro-oxidative thing.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Most people do not understand that. I do want to talk about that too.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

But at a low dose, it is an antioxidant. We would have them come in for just a couple of grams of vitamin C to help improve the efficacy of their radiation therapies and reduce the side effects. That is one of the things that I would do when I was working in a radiation oncology unit, one of the biggest radiation oncology groups in the Phenix area. There are so many different ways to look at this, and I am just grateful for the doctors I have been able to collaborate with. No, that is not how I see radiation working.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Amazing. There are lots of people who are on high-dose vitamin C. Can we talk about what high-dose vitamin C is doing, what low-dose vitamin C is doing, and when to use each?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Sure. High-dose vitamin C is on its own and in oxidative therapy, and it can be used to potentially block tumor growth. It can also be used in addition to other chemotherapy or other oxidative therapies to further deplete the tumor cells and potentially make those therapies more effective. This can be used in early-stage or late-stage cancer. It can be used as a stand-alone treatment. It can be used in combination with other therapies. One of the things that’s important with high-dose vitamin C is to make sure you are repeating your minerals and nutrients when you are undergoing a high-dose vitamin C. 

High-dose vitamin C is anything above 12 and a half grams of ascorbic acid in an IV. Just to clarify. However the replenishment is often missed by integrative practices, and that is when vitamin C can lead to high blood pressure and renal issues. Those are some of the potential complications with the pro-oxidative version of vitamin C. Then the antioxidant version of vitamin C is anything less than 12 and a half grams of ascorbic acid. I find that therapy is very useful in post-surgical wound healing. It is very useful for infections. Sometimes people have infected wounds or have some sepsis going on, and it can be helpful to overcome that. If you are susceptible to seeing death throughout your treatment process, it can be helpful for that. That is how I would use low-dose vitamin C, both surgically and to reduce the risk of infection.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Now, are you still talking about giving this IV? Because it is hard to get 12 and a half grams of oral vitamin C in.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes, I am still talking about IV therapy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

What is your difference between oral and IV? Is it 4,000?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It is about tolerance, and you cannot usually absorb enough vitamin C for you to have this pro-oxidative effect. Some liposomal vitamin C companies would claim that they could treat this pro-oxidative effect, but.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

But it sounds like you do not believe it.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Claims made by companies supported by companies in-house are hard for me to trust.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Yes. In either case, what you are talking about, even as the antioxidant dose, is still talking about IV Because you can, you can then know what dose you are truly getting.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Well, when we are talking about these interventions, where people are women who are having mastectomies and need some real support for wound healing, I would rely more on IV therapy than oral vitamin C. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Can you just go over which vitamins and minerals you are worried about with a high dose of vitamin C?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Mostly, we are worried about chelating out because high-dose vitamin C can be considered a chelating agent. It has been shown clearly to be aluminum and mercury. It can also chelate other key minerals and nutrients in our bodies. I mostly made sure that I was repeating my patients with minerals, with a mineral bag, and also some B vitamins to help because it is a pro-oxidative therapy. We want to have some B6 on board to help with that pro-oxidative stress happening in the future, and if we do not have enough, then we cannot utilize that chemical reaction effectively.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Great. The repletion cannot be oral. Or do you only use IV repletion?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

It can be oral, but if there is any type of GI upset from other conventional treatments or a shift in GI inflammation, you might not absorb minerals very well. 

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Oral, if you have a working gut. You have to have a working gut.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Yes.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

We have talked about the fascinating work that you do in Peru. When we started this conversation, we started by saying that you are retired naturopaths. Can you talk to us because you are not retired? Can you talk to us about how what you are doing now is different from what you were doing when you were in Arizona and why you made that shift?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

What is different is that what I am doing now meets the ideal that I entered a naturopathic medical school with of treating the whole person. When I was doing IV therapies, taking capsules of plants, and even mixing tinctures for my patients. I knew that I was still missing a component of their healing, and we would do counseling. I was trying to address the mind, but there was not one thing that I was using that was addressing the mind and body simultaneously. 

What I saw after supporting thousands of people going through ayahuasca ceremonies is that it truly addresses physical symptoms. I saw people heal from neuropathy, Lyme disease, cerebral palsy, and also from mental and emotional symptoms, all in one session. It was not separated into: you are taking fish oil to reduce your inflammation, you are taking lion’s mane to help your peripheral neuropathy, and you are taking this other thing for your immune system. Then we are going to sit over here and talk about your mental and emotional state. It is all happening at once in a 4- to 5-hour ceremony. I was thinking. I was sitting after one ceremony, and I was thinking about my clinic. I have a wall of over 150 herbs in my clinic that I use with my patients. I was wondering: Is there one tincture that I have ever made that could, on the same night, address this person’s sexual trauma, this person’s Lyme disease, and this person’s inflammatory response?

Jennifer Simmons, MD

You do not have a magic potion.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

I, well, I do now. But I did it. I could not think of anything that would be as effective as what I was observing in the ayahuasca ceremony. That is why I shifted things. I could not go back to what I was using before, knowing that there was a more effective therapy.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Amazing. I just want to review what we have talked about today because it is so much and it was so good. I guess you did not figure you were in for all of this. But we started off talking about the fact that communication is key because so many people are trying to build their team. What we talked about in the beginning was that it is not either or, it is, and. We are doing all of these things to complement traditional treatment where you are not advising against traditional treatment. We are saying, if you feel that will heal you, do that. But all of this is going to make a difference for you. Looking at the whole system. 

We talked about green tea and its role in healing. We talked about flax, soy, and GMOs, and how that is confusing the nutrient. We talked about assessing trauma and making sure that everyone knows their ACE score. Take an ACE test so that you can see where you are, and you do not necessarily have to unearth that trauma on your own or with your cancer doctor because there are people who are specially trained in those areas. Or you can go and have a ceremony with Dr. Paulson and address it that way.

We talked about all the kinds of plant medicines that you are working with now. Also, we touched on psilocybin and the research that is happening in this country, at Hopkins. We talked about plants as allies or collaborators. I love that term; I had never heard it before. It is blowing my mind. We talked about turmeric. In that context, if your physician is telling you not to use turmeric, or they are saying to you, do not use it in your food, do not cook with it, do not season with it? Are they talking about not eating berries and not eating leafy greens and not eating mushrooms and all of these foods that we know are both nourishing but medicinal? Because if they are not telling you not to do that, then you should not be wary of those because, at the end of the day, we are talking about food. We are talking about plants. 

We talked about the role of vitamin C, high dose, and low dose, when to use it, and how to use it. I love what you have done. it is certainly ideal and I wish it was an experience that everyone who has breast cancer could take. Not everyone necessarily needs it. But there are parts of this that everyone needs because we all need to use our diagnosis as an opportunity, an opportunity to take stock of our lives, to look at everything, to look at ourselves as one system rather than these isolated things. People who get breast cancer do not have a bad breast and it is a systemic issue. Look to the system as a whole, and develop a team that understands you and that is working with you rather than just you being told what to do and not that you have to be your doctor or figure this out because there are amazing resources out there Dr. Paulson. Where can people find you in Peru?

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Well, my retreat center is called Hampuy House, and you can find me at hampuyhouse.com. But you can also find me on all the social media platforms, at Dr. Heather Paulson and I would love to connect with you. If you are feeling called to explore other aspects of your healing, please reach out.

Jennifer Simmons, MD

Absolutely. Dr. Paulson, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your brilliance and all of your experience in this space. I know that you are changing the world and making a tremendous impact, and I am so grateful for you and the work that you do.

Heather Paulson, ND, FABNO

Thank you so much.