Mold’s Hidden Impact: The Gut, Liver, And Gallbladder Connection

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I am thrilled to be here. I love this topic. I love this audience. This is just such a joy and a passion for me.

Ann Shippy, MD

I am having this little debate about whether we start with how you got to be an expert in detoxifying or whether we start with what is going on now. I think I want to start with what is going on now. You live on the West Coast, and you just got hit by a hurricane?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

Let us talk about how you have dealt with the mold issue. You have recovered, and now you are dealing with water damage. What is going through your mind? How are you approaching this?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. There is a lot. This is probably the surface that makes me nervous hearing about it. Honestly, we are going to be okay.

Ann Shippy, MD

Yes, well, what I love is that you are being proactive.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. When what to do is not as scary, this is. I realized in our fifth house in my lifetime that I know for sure where mold has been a contributing factor. That it is present and that it is affecting our health. A hurricane happened just days ago, and it was downgraded to a tropical storm by the time I got here. This is a brand new home. It certainly reveals, with that amount of water, where the imperfections are, shall we say?

Ann Shippy, MD

I do a cardiac stress test. We put people on the treadmill and watch their EKG to see if anything is going on. Same thing with these heavy-duty storms. If you look closely, you can find out where the defects are.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, exactly. I think one of the biggest issues with mold is learning to take it seriously enough. Because mold illness can come on so slowly for people, it is very difficult to recognize it in yourself or even in someone else that you are living with. Of course, one of the most painful things about mold illness is that five people can be living in the same whole family. Similar genes can be found in the same building, and all five have different mold presentation symptoms. But because they do not look the same,

Ann Shippy, MD

I have never seen the same scenario among family members. There is always a different collection of symptoms every single time.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. What they do not realize is not only the wide range of symptoms that the mold of a mycotoxin illness can present but that you do not have to have all of them. You could have very different profiles. I think the biggest and most damaging thing about it is how long it takes people to take it seriously and, by then, how entrenched it is in your home and also in your body. Everything becomes about trying to find the energy and creativity to solve this problem on the outside as well as the inside. How do you heal without crashing once it is already set up? Your immune system’s already been compromised. Your mitochondria are fully in cell-danger response mode. You are so underproducing energy. It’s compromising your liver and your bile flow; it’s taking other helpful organisms out of the way in the body. The microbiome has shifted. Mold’s job is to snack on our tissues to break them down.

Ann Shippy, MD

Decompose things. That is what molds purpose on the planet: we would have our problems on the planet if we did not have them. We need them to decompose, but we just do not want them in. Our bodies tend to decompose other heads.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

That is brilliantly said.

Ann Shippy, MD

Beneficial things that they can do. All you have is this 18-month-old house.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

For a few days, we had a storm or a hurricane. We have molds, which are on social media. On top of that, we have molds that just explode at the front door and down a seam of one wall.

Ann Shippy, MD

You can visibly see that you did not have to go looking for it. It just showed up within a few days.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. We have already left it with a builder. Our home was built by this builder, and we had something that happened last year that was catastrophic. It was three weeks of crazy rains last year, and it was a three-story leak of just water pouring down because something about the way they finished the siding was incorrect. It is a little bit like Groundhog Day. But the good news is that we are jumping in, we are taking action, we are involving the builder, and we are involving mold mitigation specialists. 

I have my independent tests because I want to back this up with documentation. I am; it is there for everybody to see. I am looking at it now, and I am proactive. Michael and I have a lot of additional air filtration in the house now. We use high-tech air reactors in addition to supporting and breaking down mold spores. We are doing a ton of mitochondrial support, liver support, and immune support; we are going after it hardcore with an internal protocol just to keep us high-functioning while we solve this. The funny thing is, I am looking at beautiful fog right off of the ocean now. I know that the conditions outside are not ideal for this to dry out. Additional steps are going to be needed.

Ann Shippy, MD

There is a part of me that wants to just swoop in and remove it from the house until you get it fixed. I know those are big decisions, and a lot of times you do not have options to do that, and I hope you have figured your body out in such a way that hopefully the cell danger response isn’t going to get ramped up and your detox pathways keep zipping things out. I love your confidence.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Well, we will see. Yes, it was tough.

Ann Shippy, MD

Go get a hotel room and

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, but hopefully. 

Ann Shippy, MD

I would say that the fact that there is such a serious problem with one of the things makes me suspect all things.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

It is, so part of what we are doing is opening up little sections of drywall throughout the house to test. I think what most people do not realize is that if you can see some molds, there are a lot more—let’s say cockroaches.

Ann Shippy, MD

Okay, that is a great analogy.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. We have, in some ways, very similar audiences, and we have supported whole families coming through our practice for years at a time that just refused to believe that they were living in mold because they were living in a brand new home in the

Ann Shippy, MD

I think it is especially true in places where they do not have to build for snow. I think they get away with a lot more in the building process, and I think, yes, so new homes a lot of times are worse because the art of building, the craftsmanship has gone away, and then, I pretty much recommend anybody who’s building a new house get an independent inspector, and they have to be inspected usually for the city. Yes, but then get an extra set of eyes because they always find something major. 

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. I think what everybody needs to remember is that this is a process and that you cannot skip steps, and it is external problem-solving and mitigation just as much as it is internal problem-solving, healing, and detoxing from the mold itself, as well as repairing the damage that the mold has created internally. You got to have the stamina, the energy for this, and the mental clarity. That can be the most difficult thing to do if you are

Ann Shippy, MD

It is one minute at a time, one hour at a time, and a day at a time. Looking beyond a day a lot of times is just overwhelming.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Exactly.

Ann Shippy, MD

Yes. I am so happy that you were honest right away. What? One day at a time. I thought a little bit about the future—how you have such a compelling story and how you became such an expert in this area.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. The short answer is the hard way. Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

Kinesthetic learner. That’s why you had to learn with your body rather than reading in the books. But really the hard way. Yes, You thought you were dying, were probably dying.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, I think we were. I saw. I wrote my goodbye letters to my family many times, and for me, it was a spiritual journey of deciding whether or not to stay inside. I do not mind saying that to you. I think it is important that we gently have these deep conversations because, for one, I want people to know in the audience that it is okay to have those feelings. Then it makes sense, given the fact that you have been poisoned. Your body is having a perfectly logical response to being poisoned. With that can come very deep, very heavy feelings of depression, anxiety, and losing your sense of self, and even a deeper issue of disconnection from all it is—the energy that is larger than you. If you consider yourself an atheist, you might call that energy larger than you, as nature. Because we are part of it. Or if you are deeply spiritual, you may call it the universe or the quantum. or source, or if you are religious, you might call it God or whatever your favorite word for God is.

But I think we are hardwired to be a part of something larger than ourselves. One of the most difficult things about being poisoned by mold is that it is hard to feel those feelings of connection. It is much easier to feel this emotional set point of anxiety and depression, which is so intense that you lose your sense of who you are. Yes. I was in mental health first, and so was Michael. When we met, we both thought we were living our best lives. But we had both struggled with health throughout childhood and all that. It has just been normalized. We’d both already been exposed to mold; I just had not realized it, and I had already had a car for years where the seal was on the door behind me. Because I lived in Portland, Oregon, it rained a lot. In Portland, there are very few garages. You are parking outside most of the time, wherever you are. It just filled up with water. I just thought it was musty and I would spray it with something, and yes, so I inhaled that for four years before air. Then, when we moved in together, there was mold in the basement. We were in our honeymoon period, and that is when I crashed. I was helping health and wellness entrepreneurs. I was running a busy practice, and I ended up in the hospital with what we thought was a heart attack, which, as we now know, being tachycardic is such a common side effect of mold poisoning and is so often misunderstood. I thought I was dying.

 I remember the hospital being excited to admit me. It was weird, and when they were running tests and things, it was, ooh, we have got a live one here. I remember that being so strong. That is a very strange response to what I am going through. Okay.  I also remember scan after scan, test after test, and then completely losing interest in me because nothing was obvious. There was no surgery to do. I did not need something immediate and acute, and I did not make any sense to them. As the hours and days went by, I realized I was not going to get any help there. I checked myself out, and I thought, well, I did not even check myself out. I just walked out in my hospital gown. Michael, help me out of the line. I thought I was going home to die. I wish I could say that there was a beautiful moment when everything changed. But I think the truth is, for so many of us, that is not the case. There are a lot of little aha moments that lead you to the next step and the next trial and error. It took me eight years to get there.

Ann Shippy, MD

Eight years? Wow! 

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

You are persistent. That’s part of why I love you.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

That did not let me die. I am deeply loved. I am very lucky. Yes, but yes, I am various 

Ann Shippy, MD

My impression of you and from being around you is that you are more vibrant and feel the best you have. You would never have guessed that you had been so sick.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. I could not stand for more than a couple of minutes at a time. I could not open my hands because I had it all, and then there was, well, we had just bad fibromyalgia. I had to take my fingers off popsicle sticks, and I held them under my pillows so that I did not wake up this morning. If I did, it would take me 8 hours to be able to unfold my hands for the day. I would drive to work with my elbows on the steering wheel instead of my hands.

Ann Shippy, MD

I do not believe you need to work.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I know,  

Ann Shippy, MD

Well, I have to do something.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. I was too sick to help people anymore, so we just were. We had to shut down our practices. I went into product design because it was something I could do very well. I would lay on my design table and move that line up, change that color a little bit, and we would do hundreds and hundreds of SKUs that way. 

Ann Shippy, MD

You were so resourceful. All in all, what do you think the most important thing is that you are getting well?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

There are so many pieces to this. One of the pieces is understanding your total toxin burden because your body has been impacted and its ability to excrete the way it wants to when you have been poisoned with mold. There is a little bit of just basic math with this. Do not take in more toxins every day than your body can get out, period. End of story. That can feel daunting when you have been living an American lifestyle where we have normalized toxic hair products.

I was using dry shampoo where the top ingredient was aluminum because I could not wash my hair. I did not have the energy, and I did not have the hand dexterity. I would just put half the stuff on and then go like this. So I was dumping aluminum on my brain and also petroleum. There is a little bit of common sense here. Hey, maybe we do not poison ourselves while we are trying to fix being poisoned. It is just one choice at a time, guys. Prioritize clean air, clean water, and clean food. Clean food looks simple. Whole foods do not fit into the crazy superfood diets where they are. We should put 70 ingredients in the steak and bowl, and it is all run. It is going to cost your body so much energy to break all that stuff down. Please go for ease with digestion because mold is so good, as we know.

Ann Shippy, MD

Disrupting digestion.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

We have to be practical. If your body is already on the back foot, how do you get nutrients that are gentle on the body? Your body can absorb them, and that can be highly bioindividual. I am sure Dr. Ann has lots of great advice for you on that, but

Ann Shippy, MD

I love what you are saying. I think simplicity is easier to digest. Mostly cooked.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

Yes, it just

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, we are not going to get beat necessarily, depending on how advanced your food sensitivities are in your reactions because mold is so good at it. Yes, it creates a leaky gut and increases intestinal inflammatory responses, disrupting the immune system. You could have a dysregulated relationship with food as you work your way through mold. That is not uncommon. That is highly common. It is down to three foods for a while.

Ann Shippy, MD

Which three?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

It is not good.

Ann Shippy, MD

It is okay and good.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

It does not even make sense. I do not even want anybody to get ideas about it. Not a good idea. One is sulfur, but I could not tolerate other sulfur bits. It is just very weird.

Ann Shippy, MD

Okay, you just had all the things—probably the histamine box, the fats, the gluten, and the dairy.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, but my mast cell issues did not look like what we understood textbook mast cells to be until even recently. I would look at Michael and say, Oh, he is the histamine guy; he is the mast cell guy, not me because he would have huge skin flares if he ate the wrong thing. the histamine, overwhelm rages, and all that stuff. That was not me; I just got called the Weepies. I got the weepies bad. I know it is messy. Would you like just a little bit of ozone therapy at home? Then I would just, my God, dump tears about how sad the world was for the next 2 hours. I was just, honey, buy it, and then I will go to a coffee enema. 

Then, just because it is so sweet, we just have to take a step at a time. I just have to finish that thought. Many people are still encouraging people with mild illnesses to eat the rainbow, and I hate that because there are so many irritants and dense oxalate histamines that you may temporarily need to take a conscious pause and just focus on very basic nutrition. I think those are two of the first steps: less poison in everyday life than what you can get out. Simplifying your lifestyle and your exposures, and eating clean, very simple food that may be highly bio-individual to you for a time.

Ann Shippy, MD

Sometimes you just have to start with two or three foods and then gradually add them in.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

You do? Yes. Your body is brilliant. It never forgets how to heal and knows how to repair itself. The question is, what would your body be like at this stage of healing? We are never going to outsmart the body, guys. We want to work with it instead of trying to suppress the symptoms or override the body; the body has its strategies for identifying the issues and excreting them. We want to work with those supporting trees. understand.

Ann Shippy, MD

I love how you are making it this way because it is that and it is changing. As we are healing, the body wants different things. Staying in tune and not staying stuck. Okay, I can only eat these three things. It is listening; I think I want to try some blueberries today or whatever it is; and being with the flow of the body’s brilliance and being able to heal itself. I love how you are describing this.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. I think this is just common sense stuff that we forget to emphasize as practitioners because everybody wants to talk about the HLA-DR gene and the Nrf2 pathways, and it is, Well, okay, but what are you going to do about it? We know everybody’s super brain-foggy because of the mold. It is just a very practical thing.

Ann Shippy, MD

Everything works better when you lay a solid foundation. I am so pleased that you are focusing on that. Let us get a good foundation going here so that as we are building some of these more sciencey alternatives to layering in, they land better.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, that is so beautifully said. I think yes, it is a great point. One of the things that changed my life and my health trajectory was finally realizing how stuck my liver was because of mold poisoning. Also, because my immune system had been suppressed for so long, I did have a parasite issue. I wanted to be in denial about that because Michael Parasite is a guy, not me. Those were two important chapters for me to do.

Ann Shippy, MD

There are interesting collaborations between the two of you.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

It is a very karmic thing. Yes, he charges first. It is. I think this is a problem for both of us. I am. No, that sounds like a problem for you. Then he finally gets me to, and every chapter along the way gets me to research for myself. It is very true. But he and I are great examples of two ends of the spectrum for mold illness. I was extremely fragile. You, the wind, could blow wrong, and I would crash. We had a wonderful client. She called herself a Ferrari, where the wind blows wrong and she breaks down and her body; that was her metaphor for what would happen to her after a mold illness. That was me at that end of the spectrum. 

Michael was more the guy who was. Yes, very easily overloaded with the mast cell or the histamine dysregulation, the crazy parasites. Oh, my God. Just stuff for the textbooks. But at the same time, he had a high capacity to heal. He would learn about a new tool. If the dose was two pills, he goes. I wonder what this does and why it takes the whole bottle. He would just be willing to have short-term discomfort to get a clear signal from his body. Is this helping me, or is it hurting me? Is it relevant or not, as he just had to problem-solve and get to the end of it, whereas I had to dip my toe in, otherwise the world was ending? That is how we designed all of our protocols: on those two ends of the spectrum, and then.

Ann Shippy, MD

That is so cool that people can identify where they are on that spectrum.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.  It is fine to see our students now saying I am worried about Michael or me. We’re thinking there is no shame in it. Everybody gets to heal in their own way.

Ann Shippy, MD

You realized you had parasites and got rid of those. You knew your liver needed some help, and that your immune system needed support.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. This is the weird part about mold. It is so good at shutting down bile flow efficiency, shutting down bile flow, and shutting down liver efficiency. Yes, it is immune-suppressive. It is highly inflammatory to the liver. There is, yes, the HLA-DR gene, which can affect 25% of the population. But everybody has the potential for liver damage from mycotoxins because they increase those inflammatory cytokines, for sure. You get this chronic inflammatory response, and you can easily get fibrosis, necrosis, and cysts in the liver. But the most common presentation that we see is that your liver labs look fine.

Ann Shippy, MD

Your liver has to be in pretty bad shape to show up on the labs that we have currently. For the liver, you have to be practically in failure.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Thank you for saying that. Why does nobody still know this?

Ann Shippy, MD

There is one marker, a DGT, that is a little bit more sensitive. Sometimes that’ll be an earlier indicator than the ALTSD.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Thank you. Yes, now we have it recorded for the summit. Good. Because I am just shocked at who does not know that, supposedly, mycotoxin experts

Ann Shippy, MD

It is the same thing with the kidneys. We measure kidney function, but it is like flying over in an airplane and trying to figure out what is going on with the leaves on the tree. We do not have great kidney function. Cystatin C is a little more sensitive, but it is still pretty unstaged damage. We can just tell you that you are failing at it. We cannot tell—oh, is this optimal?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I think it is a beautiful way to describe that. It is a great analogy. The problem is that your practitioner, whether they are allopathic or holistic, will look at that and say, Oh, your liver is looking just fine. That is good news. Meanwhile, you could have seriously compromised function in those 2000 miles of bile ducts in your liver. Your liver is a big guy; it is a beast. It is your master regenerative organ. It is the largest traditional organ. The interstitial is larger, which is throughout the body now, but that is what we classify as the largest organ. Now, you have 13% of your body’s total blood volume going through the liver at any given time. This is just one of them; yes, it is cleaning out your blood. Yes, it helps to break down toxins into smaller metabolites and then reconstitute them for excretion through bile or the kidney. But the truth is, the liver has 500 jobs in the body. It often performs over 200 of those at one time. 

It was a busy parallel worker for you. In a lot of those jobs, it determines how much you can absorb your proteins effectively and whether you can use them and break them down efficiently. How are you absorbing your sugars? How good are you at emulsifying your fats? That is from good bile flow. Can break down things and absorb things in your vitamins A, D, E, and K, which is why so many people with mold illnesses have liver dysfunction. Then that shows up over time as osteoporosis because you are not getting fat-soluble vitamins for strong, healthy bones. Your ability to observe calcium through food has been compromised due to bile flow. Remember, bile, for everybody who skipped ninth-grade science, is what your liver makes. It is your liquid gold detergent for the body. Okay, you just got cut with a liquid called detergent.

Ann Shippy, MD

What? Gold detergent. That is beautiful.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

It is expensive to make. Your body wants to reuse it. It wants to mount a downer again, hence the liquid gold. But it is great. It is using components of your cholesterol and amino acids and pairing those together to make these bile salts. Then those are solid, and those are suspended in liquid to make bile in very delicate chemistry. What can make that go wrong? Almost anything. A molecule from your mother-in-law’s dryer sheets. You do not even smell it, but you do not want to offend her or the Glade plug in your Uber drivers’ vents because they think that they are dangerous.

Ann Shippy, MD

Can we just pause there, because I think those are more toxic than anything else we bring into our homes? For our audience today, if you have those, please just unplug them and throw them away. Yes. Thanks. Thank you for bringing it up.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Say that Dr. Ann and Sinclair told you, do not have those in your house. Make us the bad guys. Tell everybody know, because they are just trying to make money off of you guys. They have no interest in or care about how your health picture looks. If you want to go down the rabbit hole, look at who owns those companies, what interest they have in big pharma, and how much they benefit from you as a customer. Later, because you came, you became chronically ill from being poisoned by them. Sorry.

Ann Shippy, MD

Yes, it is a huge rabbit hole. Thank you. It is the number of people who have those. It just still shocks me that the word is not getting out about them.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Just because, luckily for some of you, and I do say this very deliberately, you have a visceral reaction to those, and I know it feels very uncomfortable, even unlivable, to be so aware of what is around you, but it is so much better to be that way and to know that your body can give you that signal that you are in an unsafe environment than it is to not get that signal and get the poison anyway and have to deal with the damage later. I do say that very deliberately. You are very lucky if you are sensitive, and I came for that to hurt me. But so anyway, it can easily happen that you come across different environmental toxicants throughout the day that are dropping your bile salts out of liquid form and slowing that down, which means those 2000 miles of bile ducts in your biliary tree, this is your big boy liver, it is a triangle, and you have this biliary tree, the bile supposed to be formed, and then it is intricately involved in, observing things from the red blood cells and then draining down the biliary tree and then going down into a little catcher’s mitt, which is your gallbladder if you so got one. then your gallbladder is going to modify the pH of your bile. It is going to condense and match the pH needs of the small intestine based on what is generally coming out of the stomach, which is the bolus of food, and that is stomach acid.

Your bile and your gallbladder can do much more than that. We know now that it can modify your bile to be even more anti-cancer, for example. depending on the environment, the environment of your digestive system, and what is needed. It is magnificent this process, but you cannot see it in labs. assume or on normal labs, let’s just put it that way. Assume that if you have been poisoned by mold, your liver function has been compromised and that you could do with some general liver support, but you do not want to skip to whomping your liver over the head with a lot of glutathione IVs and nothing else. You might have a short-term effect, but I feel a little better. then a big crash because glutathione is an immobilizer and it should never be used by itself without the context of a larger protocol. It is not a great binder. Yes, you need it for every stage of liver detoxification, but it is better to think about this systemically and make sure that we are supporting drainage first. Is there a clear exit, or is there some stuff on the way? If you have a buildup of material on the colon, most of us do. Most Americans have five or 20 pounds of feces in their colon. Young makes one.

Ann Shippy, MD

That’s true.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.  Most people who have more poisoning have compromised gut motility, in part due to compromised bile flow. Then you already have a fermentation situation in the gut. We have to consider what is between the liver and the exits before we start asking the liver to dump stuff. We want to ease into this systemically and consider the layers of support you need to be successful.

Ann Shippy, MD

What are your favorite things to support the liver in the vial?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I like to use Bile Builders and Bile Movers, as well as Global Liver Support. If you are not pooping every day, you are not allowed to push detox. I am sorry. It is time to work on that first. There is a lot of non-habit-forming support out there. Everybody has their favorites.

Ann Shippy, MD

What are yours?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

But here is one way to do a good deep clean-out that is a little short-term: use Ozone Magnesium. Oxy-Powder by Global Healing Center. Okay, this is not supposed to make Bristol 4 beautiful bananas in the toilet. This is supposed to empower your body and draw water into the colon. It is very gentle and just helps empower the body to get rid of those weird packets of stuff that, at one point or another, your colon is simply not in a position to release efficiently. They just built up so much magnesium, especially Oxy-Powder Global Healing Center, which is a great way to fight that. You will see strange things in the toilet: strange smells, strange textures, and strange colors. That is great. That’s a win. You want to go somewhere between—yes, I am having a full release in the morning between that and Diazepam. Diazepam is too far away. You are going to need to modulate your dose.

Ann Shippy, MD

Well, and it can change. Once you get that, get detoxed, and get flowing, you may still use the Oxy-Powder, but not at the same rate. It is a constant learning curve.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, that is beautifully said. Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

However, it will likely be helpful for that downstream pathway. I love that solution.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes absolutely. For an overloaded liver, you want to consider what would help and what would relieve some of this stagnation without asking you to move too fast, and a great way to do that is to provide components that are expensive to come by for the body so that it can more easily make fresh bile and let go of old stuff. That will just help systemically support that process. Phosphatidylcholine is great, Quicksilver Scientific.

Ann Shippy, MD

Micellized PC, I just think everybody should be taking it preventively, at least a few days a week because it helps with so many things. But yes, I am so glad you brought that up because it is one of my favorites too.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Great. I like the Micellized PC; that’s great. But there are other forms on the market, and it is a major component of bile. Yes, let’s do that. I also like bile builders, like TUDCA, who is also the king of bitters. I do like Cell Core Advance TUDCA more than Body Bios. I find it to be more effective. It has NAC as a driver, which is very useful. For some people, that is going to be too strong to start on, especially for severe or mold illnesses where your drainage is very low functioning. You could start with the Body Bio, or you could just start with a low dose of the Advanced TUDCA. What else do I like? I do like Bitters. If you could tolerate them, not being bitter is not the best place for everybody to start with. If you have a real histamine intolerance, most of those foods are going to activate that. But again, what is it?

Ann Shippy, MD

It is interesting, though, because it is so person-to-person dependent on my body. I can go on that histamine spectrum too. My body just loves Bitters. It is, yes.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Isn’t that weird? I’ve seen that so many times. 

Ann Shippy, MD

Yes. It is worth a try. If you try it and get tipped over with a histamine, within 24 hours, it should be maybe 48 hours back to your baseline. But it is worth a try because, for some of us, it is amazing.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, exactly. What we are doing is letting the body know if you take those 20 minutes before a meal. When anybody knows, hey, it is time to get the gastric juices flowing. This is stuff that you should be doing. If we were cooking, traditionally the brain and ear olfactory sense would have lots of time to tell the body, Hey, we are going to be digesting soon; get ready. But we are so quick with the way we prepare meals now, or we may be sitting down at somebody else’s table or getting takeout or something, that that may not be the case, especially when we are not well and we are not doing a lot of meal prep. It helps the body get ready, and you are going to need some bile flow. That is so beautiful. 

So many times I hear practitioners of all stripes tell people, Your gallbladder is impacted. We could tell. You are not handling fat well because you have nausea and GERD, and because you have some of the liver signs of dark circles under the eyes. There is a proliferation of skin issues. They can see that they are good at drawing that association. But then what they say to do about it is terrible. Oh, you have eczema, psoriasis, dermatitis, or any of these other rashes; you are histamine sensitive; you are irritable; you are quick to overwhelm the brain; and you are waking up at 3 a.m. Yes, that all sounds like the liver. But then they tell you that because your gallbladder hurts when you eat high-fat foods, you should not eat a low-fat diet. The problem with that is that you are not asking the gallbladder to release; you need a workout. You have to use that muscle to get it.

Ann Shippy, MD

That’s such a great analogy.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

You can never ask it to deal with that. It is just going to not even prioritize that function at all. How are you? Yes, how do you get it to work?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I always thought I was just a very delicate person, and yes, obviously, that is true. But, as it is, I cannot handle fat. I prefer to eat very lightly. But the truth is, my gallbladder was so impacted that I could not tolerate any fat without feeling instantly nauseous. That’s a very common thing. The bowels are trying to move, and you get that nausea. You get that pinging. That is the gallbladder talking. You can start with low doses of high-quality fats, and you have to play a clean game. No rancid oils if you have liver and gallbladder issues; if you have been impacted by mold, your days of crappy fats are done.

Ann Shippy, MD

What are your favorites?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

I like the animal-based healing fats. I do not say this lightly because I spent most of my life as a vegetarian. so good. But clinically, it is undeniable. I have an ethical responsibility to tell you guys, and I know you do not want to hear it. For those of you who are vegetarians in the audience, I understand why. But you will heal faster if you have animal products and animal fats in your life.

Ann Shippy, MD

This over and over again. It is so much easier for people to heal, as they are getting animal fats and animal protein.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Especially for liver issues, especially from mold illnesses, for so many reasons. Tallow is deeply healing.

Ann Shippy, MD

Can you explain what tallow is because people may not know?

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, so Tallow is animal fat, and so it is usually beef tallow. This is a fat that you can get in a jar, like butter, ghee, or coconut oil. You can scoop them out and use them to sauté your vegetables, or you can put them on your sweet potato and drizzle them on it. You could cook meat with it, and it starts with just small amounts. You can also apply tallow topically, and that is a great way to get small amounts of it in. That is what I had to do for some time because my skin was so compromised. It is so healing for the skin, and it is very cost-effective. You do want grass-fed animals that have been finished with animal products. Quality counts more than anything else. Tallow is a great food to cook. Any time you bring in healing fats to the body, it is going to ask the liver and gallbladder to work, which is good. You just want to take a dose that you are capable of handling. It is what? What weights are you working with? How much can you lift now? There is no wrong number. You just want to respect what the body can do now, and you will work up from there. Another good one is ghee because even people who are very dairy-sensitive can tolerate ghee.

Ann Shippy, MD

I am a little iffy on that one. I would not put that one away just because it can be so inflammatory for so many people.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, that is true. I did not enjoy ghee in the beginning. For some people, it is a lifesaver if they are underweight due to mold illness. It is one of the few things that they can tolerate. To each their own, you are going to have to experiment, try it, and then you can look at the butter. The issue with mold for so many people is that you can become very sensitive to dairy. If you are on that spectrum, one thing to try as an experiment is goat butter versus cow butter. Cow products are going to be the hardest on the body. One of the things that is useful for vegans is coconut oil, but it does have its limitations. I would do it for you, and it is a beautiful, beautiful food, and we just want to be aware that it does not solve all problems, and the amount may matter a lot. You also have to consider your sourcing before anything else. What other ones did I miss, Ann? Help me remember rancid fats versus fats.

Ann Shippy, MD

You did great. I think some of the avocado oils are so high in quality that I think people do fine with them, as I think you did. You have all the big ones.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

The big ones, yes.

Ann Shippy, MD

Easy to get in high quality that most people will tolerate.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. What I want everybody to take away from this is that this is very doable to ease into, although, at a certain point, you may need to do deeper liver work, and that is what we are working towards preparing the liver, preparing the body, and all of the among trays, all of your drainage pathways to get ready for a deeper release of has stacked up, so mold is highly estrogenic. What we know from what we know now is that the liver and gallbladder can both produce stones and get stuck with them for quite some time. It does not have to be; they do not have to be so minimally dense that they show up on scans. 

Mine never did, and I never did that. I never drank the olive oil because I thought it was, or at least for most of my healing journey, because I thought it was too sensitive to do that liver flush that has been popularized by Dr. Andreas Moritz. They have a beautiful body of work, both of them. We are, in so many ways, standing on your shoulders today. But for so many of us, it is not the right move when we are working on liver support. I had to figure out other ways to offload those, use stone-breaker herbs, do suppositories, coffee enemas, different drainage supports, and just the stack. I would pulse a release, and I would get stones out of the toilet every time. If I did not do the stack, I would not get them out. But I got out over 15,000 stones from the liver.

Ann Shippy, MD

Oh my goodness.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

A period of six months. I thought for sure I did not have any shops on the scans. and they were not very dense. They were just cholesterol-based, with some bile and some toxic sludge in the middle, and they would float on the top of the toilet. They are less dense than water and heavily oil-based because, remember, cholesterol, and in that way, I saw a full recovery from what I would consider my mild illness.

Ann Shippy, MD

No wonder you could not detoxify because you did not have your bile salts flowing. They were all fed up.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, exactly. Yes. That is just very basic, guys. My biliary tree was just chock full of those. Mold is a great reason for your liver to create cholesterol-based stones. high levels of estrogen, well, that is highly estrogenic. It is yet another compounding factor. The good news is that this is all fixable at a rate you can tolerate. You can just start with the amount of drainage support for you now, a little bit of mitochondria support, and the binders on board for you, and then start building bile and adding those elements in. But you may, if you are me, at some point need to do a deeper cleanup.

Ann Shippy, MD

I think this is a perfect time to let people know where to find you here. Yes, I know you have some great online programs that people will want to tap into when they hear your story and your wisdom on this.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, we have taken over 10,000 people through these liver protocols, and it is just absolutely my joy to do anything.

Ann Shippy, MD

Sinclair, you have helped so many people.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, it is. It is my joy. People come in foggy, irritable, overwhelmed, and afraid of their bodies. You do not have to be afraid of your body, guys. you. Can we talk about the liver on Instagram? You can come to hang out with us there for detox and rejuvenation. We are also the hosts of your Health Reset podcast, which you can find at detoxrejuvenation.com. There are lots of fun liver support tools along the way, and I just want to say you should get excited about understanding your body. This is not the problem. This is your greatest friend. This is your sacred vessel. This is your way into this plane of existence, as it is and as an eternal being. If that resonates with you, it does for me.

Ann Shippy, MD

Me too.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Let’s get curious, and let’s love it. Even on the hard days.

Ann Shippy, MD

Find the silver and platinum linings, because I am sure you have changed the trajectory of your health for resilience and longevity for many decades to come.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes, that is the hope; it does not have to be perfect. That’s just to take the next step. Well, thank you so much. This was a way to do it.

Ann Shippy, MD

Beautiful information. I know it is going to help a lot of people, too.

Sinclair Kennally, CNHP, CNC

Yes. Thank you so much for being an advocate in this space. I hope everybody is just soaking up this time with you because you are just so magical.

Ann Shippy, MD

Thank you, Sinclair. I will see you soon. Thank you so much.