Full Transcript Introduction to the Podcast and Guest 0:02 Welcome to the trip lab kitchen table conversations [music] about integrative 0:06 medicine and psychedelics. I'm your host and resident physician, Dr. Mariela 0:11 Wood. Hey everyone, welcome back. I am very 0:16 excited to share this episode with you all today. I interviewed Dr. Emily 0:21 Willow who is a psychiatrist who has actually built her whole psychiatric 0:25 career around psychedelic medicine and research. I don't have any news or 0:30 updates for you guys today. So, let's just jump right in. And first, I'll tell 0:34 you a little bit about her. Emily Willow, MD, is a psychiatrist, 0:40 researcher, and educator based in San Francisco, California. She is an ardent 0:45 advocate for psychedelic medicine and has worked on multiple clinical trials 0:49 investigating psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, including both MDMA and 0:54 psilocybin. Additionally, Dr. Willow has a private practice in San Francisco, 1:00 California, and is an attending psychiatrist at the University of 1:03 California, San Francisco. She holds multiple mentorship and teaching roles, 1:09 including at the California Institute of Integral Studies, CIS, 1:14 in the Center for Psychedelic Therapies and Research, and the School of 1:18 Consciousness and Transformation. I had such a great time talking with Dr. 1:23 Willow and all the variety of topics we discuss and what she was able to shed 1:28 light on. To give you a little preview, we chat about the different molecules 1:32 that she has experience with, including MDMA, ketamine, and psilocybin. And 1:38 she's able to tell us about the difference between each of them and how 1:42 each molecule may be better or in some cases not recommended depending on each 1:47 patient's personal history. We also dive into archetypal experiences that 1:53 psychedelics along with dream states and meditation can induce within each of us 1:58 that then lead us to understand ourselves and our place in the world to 2:01 heal and grow. Dr. Willow and I both actually utilize tarot cards too to help
How Dr. Willow Entered Psychedelic Medicine 2:08 with these consciousness exploring journeys. So, we chat about that as 2:12 well. I loved hearing her talk about the process she uses with her patients with 2:17 tarot. and I think that you guys will too. And since this is the first time 2:22 we're talking about tarot on this podcast, I do have a little bonus for 2:26 anyone interested in tarot, which essentially the way I describe it is a 2:30 deck of cards beautifully painted to represent the human experience. So if 2:35 you want to learn more about tarot, I have a little snippet at the end that 2:38 will explain a little bit more. So with all that, let's just jump right into our 2:43 conversation. to start, can you just tell us a little 2:47 bit about you, how you got into the psychedelic space, your journey, and 2:52 what you do now? [snorts] >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I first 2:58 got involved with the psychedelic space um when I was in medical school in 3:02 Charleston, South Carolina, uh at MUSC. By the fates, one of the first MDMA 3:09 clinical trials was um being conducted in the same town that my medical school 3:14 was. It wasn't associated with MUSC. It was um sponsored by MAPS, the 3:19 Multi-disiplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, and um led by uh 3:24 Michael and Annie Mitthofer. And I happened to meet them through the 3:30 Charleston Young Society um and learned about the work that they were doing. Um 3:36 and prior to that, I was not really, you know, interested in psychedelics or like 3:42 really knew anything about psychedelic therapy. it was such a new thing like in 3:47 you know research obviously it had been um happening for decades prior to that 3:53 but um it was really new to me and um kind of from there I can go into more 4:00 you know detail but um one thing that was that really struck me in learning 4:06 about um the the approach of psychedelic assisted therapy is that it was so 4:12 different than what I was learning in medical school. Um it was very um kind 4:17 of getting at the root cause of things and like understanding things in a from 4:23 a more like healing perspective than a you know what we see in the kind of med 4:28 the western medical model which is really kind of addressing symptoms and 4:34 um you know treating symptoms with medication and not really um outside of 4:39 you know some examples like surgery or you know antibiotics we don't 4:45 you know, heal things the same way that that we do when we're thinking about um 4:50 psychedelic healing >> in in mental health, psychiatry. 4:54 >> Um so that really >> was just like worldview shifting for me. 5:00 Um >> and kind of led me on this this path of 5:03 continuing to, you know, volunteer and work with MAPS over the years. Um I 5:08 worked on a couple of different clinical trials. Um and then you know throughout 5:13 my residency was involved um you know with psychedelic harm reduction um and 5:19 and the the psychedelic research that's been happening. Um and now um kind of 5:24 post residency post um psychiatry training and everything. I have a 5:29 private practice where I offer um ketamine assisted psychotherapy and also 5:37 um I do what we call psychedelic integration psychotherapy um where you 5:42 know you're not doing the actual psychedelic therapy with folks but um 5:45 kind of from a a harm reduction perspective. 5:49 We we're acknowledging and and understanding that people are going to 5:53 be using psychedelics on their own and that you know lots of things you know 5:58 content insights wisdom comes up during these kind of quote unquote recreational 6:04 experiences and um by doing kind of supportive integration psychotherapy you 6:10 can help people um get the most out of those experiences. So that's kind of 6:14 what I'm focusing on uh now in my private practice. 6:17 >> That's that's so cool. I love that because I feel like a lot of a lot of 6:22 places are offering psychedelic assisted ketamine therapy but kind of push off 6:26 any other use of psychedelics that people are already doing. 6:29 >> So that's really cool. So at the time MAPS was doing the MDMA therapy and I 6:34 guess that's that's still their big main focus. 6:36 >> Um so what was that like when it was first starting and you were in medical 6:41 school so like weren't even out and practicing yet. Um like what kind of 6:45 things did you learn and Yeah. Um, kind of early on, like when I 6:51 was in medical school, um, I I learned a lot about the the kind of psychedelic 6:57 harm reduction angle. 7:01 It was as you said like really early on and um I because of the stigma I 7:09 couldn't really talk about it you know even into my psychiatry residency 7:16 um you know at at UCSF in San Francisco I had mentor or you know teachers and um 7:22 you know other instructors and my my psychiatry training um kind of 7:27 dissuadeed me from talking about it from being involved olved. Um there was a lot 7:32 of skepticism um about you know the efficacy of psychedelics 7:37 um and certainly in South Carolina where it's a lot more conservative um I didn't
Training, Stigma, and Residency Experience 7:43 really feel safe talking about it. So it it it didn't feel, you know, as 7:47 comfortable or safe to talk about my interest because I think kind of at that 7:51 time to talk about psychedelic therapy was also to kind of ally yourself as 7:58 someone who was like a a drug user, you know, and the the stigma there and and 8:04 not wanting to kind of put myself in that that position. Um even though that 8:08 wasn't the case at the time. >> Yeah. Um, so kind of wanting to like 8:12 avoid those labels. But, um, so what I really learned, um, kind of during that 8:18 time, I I I watched I did some of the the MDMA therapist training. I watched 8:23 some videos. Um, that's, you know, back then it was really in like the training 8:28 was really informal. Now they have a very formal uh, therapist training 8:32 program that takes place over months. Um and back then I kind of was it was 8:38 really informal and and casual um learning and directly from Michael and 8:43 Annie um on you know a few few occasions and um it was just it was so striking 8:50 and I think this is what kind of led me to deciding that I wanted to do this you 8:55 know as a career path was just seeing how people were these the participants 9:01 in these clinical trials were so changed in the the MDMA clinical trials. 9:09 They do three MDMA sessions. >> It's Yeah. And it's like so it's it's so 9:15 so few number of sessions. three times you're taking a medicine, you know, and 9:21 that's having this impact where, you know, someone who has severe PTSD and 9:26 they're suicidal and they're, you know, been hospitalized multiple times and 9:30 their, you know, relationships with their families or their partners is 9:33 disintegrating and they go from that level of functioning to, you know, 9:39 starting a company or starting a new job or, you know, this just it's like a 9:43 total 180. Um, and it's just like so amazing to see. And like at that time, 9:50 like when you're in medical school, and I'm sure you remember this, you're being 9:55 kind of taught in this, you're just like absorbing everything, right? And so to 9:59 see something that's like just totally different than, you know, what you're 10:03 learning in the textbooks and like from from your teachers, it was just really 10:07 compelling. And I was like, I have to I have to do this. I have to be have to do 10:12 what I to be a part of. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. In med school, 10:16 you're kind of taught a lecture and at the time you see it as that is the end 10:20 all beall. That's what all doctors do. But what I've learned recently is that's 10:25 just so not the case. And all of these alter like quote unquote alternative 10:29 healing therapies, not even for mental health, but all all all areas of health, 10:34 they can do a lot of good for people. >> Yeah. Yeah. And um there's something 10:38 about I think meeting the patient where they are rather than being like in the 10:43 western medical model we're so paternalistic and prescriptive that 10:47 there's this idea that we know what's best for the patient. And a lot of times 10:52 that's true but it's not always the case. And I think it's really important 10:55 like when you're doing like treatment planning or you know in psychedelic 10:59 therapy, we're setting aside we're kind of bringing this beginner's mind uh 11:04 perspective and we're setting aside like our assumptions about what's right and 11:09 we're letting kind of the patient open up to their own inner healer, to their 11:14 own kind of process with it. And that's it's so it's just a totally different 11:18 paradigm than we have in in the kind of western medical model. 11:22 >> Yeah. Now we're seeing all the studies about psycho psychedelic therapy and 11:26 also any other integrative medicine aspect and the studies are actually 11:30 there. Like a lot of this stuff works. We just weren't taught it and so a lot 11:34 of doctors still to this day assume it doesn't work. It's so interesting. 11:38 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Was it hard when you were in residency? 11:42 So you started out in med school, had this experience and then in residency 11:47 you kind of just went down the the normal path as people do during 11:50 residency. Was it hard knowing that there's these alternative therapies out 11:55 there that you couldn't pursue as much as you'd like during residency? 11:59 >> Yeah, it it really was. Um, and I I appreciate you kind of pointing that out 12:05 because like when you're in residency, as you know, it's like you're 12:09 >> Yeah, you've got your blinders on. You're just kind of in survival mode, 12:13 like getting through the, you know, 80 100 hour work weeks and, you know, just 12:18 kind of surviving. Um, one of the things that I think was really helpful for me 12:24 was being in a greater community of people like outside of my residency. So, 12:30 other people who were, you know, involved in research or you know, 12:34 volunteering with MAPS or um, you know, in the kind of psychedelic harm 12:38 reduction space. having a community of people um like that kind of was this 12:44 parallel like nourishment that I got like while and I I was really lucky 12:49 because there you know are kind of more of us in the Bay Area than you know 12:55 other places like if I had stayed in residency in Charleston it would have 12:58 been a different um definitely a different experience um so it was really 13:02 great having that kind of community support I feel really you know lucky to 13:06 have had that and I actually wrote my or um I did my senior talk uh in residency 13:13 on how I had this like parallel training program that I kind of created for 13:17 myself. So like I had you know everything that I was doing in my you 13:22 know regular kind of clinical training um I did a research track within my 13:27 residency. So I was able to do some you know psychedelic research um work as a 13:33 part of my residency but then I like sought out like additional training like 13:37 I completed the MDMA therapist training like while I was in residency
Ketamine, MDMA, and Psilocybin Compared 13:42 >> and I did some somatic training and I did you know some other things that 13:46 really kind of supported my ultimate goal you know kind of filling in some of 13:51 the the gaps um of my interest. So that kind of made it, you know, and as my, 13:56 you know, as you get further along, you have more kind of elective space or like 14:00 your your your schedule is a lot different than it is like when you're an 14:03 intern, for example. >> Wow. How did people respond to that when 14:07 you did that as your senior project? >> Most people in my program know me, so 14:11 they kind of knew that that's what I was that's what I was doing, but um it it it 14:15 tracked based on, you know, [laughter] >> how how they knew me. But um I guess 14:22 yeah it it was a lot of work. It was a lot of extra work. So a lot of you know 14:26 doing kind of training stuff or read like tons of reading. Um, 14:31 >> and I feel like what's kind of in funny, I guess, is that, you know, I I know a 14:37 lot more about psychedelics than I do about, you know, different like, you 14:41 know, anti-depress. I mean, I know a lot about anti-depressants, but like I feel 14:44 like I know a lot more about Yeah. like the history of psychedelic therapy than 14:48 I do about, you know, nitty-gritty of like psychoanalysis or things like that. 14:54 So, >> that's so cool. I actually had a a 14:57 similar experience. So, I'm obviously in family medicine, not psychiatry, but I 15:01 did my uh final year um research project about psychedelics, looking at primary 15:06 care providers views on psychedelics. >> Yeah. 15:09 >> And uh I mean, similar to you, people kind of expected I was going to go this 15:13 route. Uh but it was it was really interesting seeing the feedback when I 15:16 presented it. A lot of people were they literally took the mic and said they 15:21 wanted to try psychedelics after this. So, I don't know if that's good or bad 15:24 for the residency program, but it was cool to see people's eyes open up to 15:29 this whole different world. >> Yeah. Yeah. And reducing the stigma by 15:32 like sharing your experience. That's so >> Yeah. Yeah. Like this podcast. That's 15:37 why I'm doing it. >> So, you've you've worked with MDMA. Um, 15:42 you do ketamine now. And then you have you've worked with psilocybin before as 15:47 well, right? >> Yeah. On a group study. Yeah. 15:49 >> Since you've kind of done a lot of work with all of them. Um, what do you think 15:53 about each of the different molecules? Do you have one that you think works 15:57 better or do you think they're really kind of tailored for specific disorders? 16:03 >> Yeah, that's such a great question. Um, I think kind of more the latter, I 16:07 think, you know, certain medicines are better for, you know, certain things. 16:13 Um, one thing that I've learned with ketamine, so it's it's great for 16:18 depression. Um it's great for um acute suicidality. 16:23 It can be useful for anxiety. Um and it's not that great for trauma. Um so 16:29 kind of knowing those things. So like with ketamine, it's a dissociative, you 16:34 know, dissociative anesthetic. And so for people, a lot of people who have 16:38 trauma, they tend to dissociate as a way to, you know, protect themselves from, 16:43 you know, that's the like a a defense mechanism. And that can be really 16:48 disorienting if you're, you know, having a ketamine experience and you're you're 16:52 feeling your body dissociate. That can be kind of almost like retraumatizing or 16:55 like anxiety provoking. Um, so you have to be really careful like it's not like 16:59 a total, you know, contraindication, you know, for for trauma, but it's just not 17:03 as as great. I think that there are once we have more tools available to us, MDMA 17:09 is so much better, you know, from a neurobiology perspective, um, for, you 17:13 know, experiential perspective for PTSD and trauma because of the way that it 17:20 decreases our fear response. It tones down the amydala response um, and allows 17:26 us to access traumatic memories without getting really overwhelmed and flooded. 17:31 And that's something that ketamanine or you know psilocybin or LSD does not do. 17:36 So you know it starts to kind of separate out I think um and for for 17:42 people who have um maybe more mood instability. So maybe like in the 17:48 bipolar spectrum or um you know tend to to have more um kind of affect 17:54 instability or have more like in the personality disorder range, MDMA might 17:58 not be a great option because there can be a little bit of a a mood drop 18:03 sometimes after. Um we don't see that as much in the we see that in recreational 18:08 use for sure. um but we don't see it quite so much in the clinical trials 18:14 which I think really kind of speaks to how important the support is and the 18:19 psychotherapy aspect um for having you know not having that you know sometimes 18:24 they they call it like the the Tuesday or Wednesday blues like after ecstasy 18:29 >> um so we don't necessarily see that in the um the clinical trials but we're 18:34 giving people follow-up phone calls like every other day after they take MDMA so 18:39 if therapists are following up with them and so you're you're really getting this 18:43 kind of you know tight container and support. 18:47 >> Yeah. So that's kind of a >> interesting. So I wonder I wonder if 18:52 it's uh the doses that people are doing in a recreational setting that's also 18:56 influencing that. But it's interesting that in the clinical setting you don't 19:00 really see kind of the serotonin depletion as people call it. 19:05 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and like you know maybe it's just that you know having the 19:09 extra support you're able to tolerate it better you 19:14 might have more tools um that's one thing that I you know we can't really 19:19 look at in like a like a clinical trial setup like we can't do the research 19:25 design where we're you know not giving people the supportive psych you know so 19:29 we can't really compare it um but it'll be really interesting like as you know 19:33 this is you know once we get FD approval and we can do more comparisons like out 19:39 in the wild um like what what we might see um you know coming from that. 19:45 >> Yeah, that's so interesting. And it makes me think of too the risk of 19:48 serotonin syndrome which is a theoretical risk but in the in the 19:52 literature so far it looks like from what I found you may know differently 19:56 that there's been um pretty much no cases of serotonin syndrome when it's 20:00 done in a clinical setting which I also find interesting. So, I'm wondering too 20:04 if it's I mean people in a recreational setting might be getting drugs laced 20:09 with other things or taking other drugs together, 20:12 >> right? Right. Or yeah, being on an SSRI and like not reporting it or um but 20:18 yeah, you're you're you're right. In the clinical trials, we don't really see 20:22 serotonin syndrome. And we're we're we have a lot of like medical monitoring, 20:27 really safe environment. So I think that's one of the benefits of the 20:32 medical model for psychedelic therapy. I don't necessarily think that's the only 20:38 thing that we should have available, but I think that that's a benefit of having 20:42 the regulation. It's the safety aspect um because serotonin syndrome can be 20:48 fatal. >> Yeah. gonna actually ask your opinion on 20:52 what do you think about these drugs being legal for I guess you can't really 20:56 delineate whether it's going to be personal therapy use or recreational but 21:00 yeah what are your thoughts about um because a lot of people think that they 21:04 should be legal but only strictly for medical use so I'd be curious what what 21:07 you think about it >> yeah I 21:12 really think that we need both the medical model so like FDA 21:18 approval um so that we can you know doctors can you doctors nurse 21:22 practitioners prescribers can prescribe these medications and give them in the 21:26 safe container that some people need. Um I also think that that can potentially 21:34 can keep other people from accessing >> psychedelic medicine. So like people who 21:41 don't have pathology for example who don't you know don't have like 21:45 psychiatric pathology um they wouldn't you know meet criteria to you know 21:51 they're not diagnosed wi with something for example it's a little it becomes a 21:55 little more difficult to give someone MDMMA in a clinical setting if you don't 21:58 have PTSD for example um you can you could do it off label but you have to 22:04 like with as with you know a lot of things in in medicine you have to think 22:08 about kind of medical legally like what's defensible in a you know in a 22:12 malpractice suit you know how are you going to say like this is you know the 22:17 standard of care for example so there's there's there's that aspect that you 22:21 have to be cognizant cognizant of um >> but I think having recreational 22:29 legalization of psychedelics in combination with a really robust public 22:35 health education um system and safe spaces for people to use psychedelics. 22:43 Um I think that that's as important because just like meditation and yoga or
Archetypes, Tarot, and Symbolic Healing 22:53 you know vaposa retreats or you know things that we're doing as kind of 22:59 individuals um even going to psychotherapy if you 23:03 don't have a diagnosis right um you know so these things that we're doing and Bob 23:08 Jesse uh calls it the betterment of well people um Yeah, I really think that 23:14 that's important. Um, and I think, you know, that we should be able to, you 23:20 know, it kind of brings up the question of cognitive liberty, like do we have 23:24 the ability, the freedom to explore our own consciousness 23:30 >> with the with the use of, you know, you consciousness altering substances. 23:36 And I believe that that that we should um because I think you know the people 23:40 that maybe if we didn't if we only had recreational psychedelics for example 23:45 and we didn't have medical psychedelics I think there would be a lot of people 23:50 who wouldn't be able to access that that care because they need that more you 23:54 know they need more support or maybe they only feel comfortable in a medical 23:58 setting. You know, I know lots of people. I have people that come have 24:01 come to me in my private practice specifically because I'm also an 24:05 attending at UCSF and so they feel like comfortable about having that kind of 24:09 institutional connection. Even though this is my private practice, they feel a 24:13 lot of comfort and safety in, you know, that that sort of like medical container 24:18 or, you know, they're they're coming to see me because I'm a an a doctor, not a 24:23 therapist. Right. >> Yeah. 24:25 So I I think that there you know and then kind of brings there's the other 24:30 piece which I think is also important is uh religious use of psychedelics. I 24:35 think that that's something that you know all three of these kind of arms um 24:40 are being pursued in different ways and I think that you know to have a really 24:46 fair uh productive psychedelic renaissance I think we need to have all 24:51 of those things available to to folks. Yeah, I completely agree and especially 24:55 what you were talking about with cognitive liberty and also going back to 24:59 just how we diagnose psychiatric disorders as you clearly know very well, 25:04 but it's it's wild how you can have one less symptom in the DSM and you 25:08 technically don't have depression. And so it just points to the idea that 25:12 mental health in general is such a sliding scale of not just mental health 25:16 but just our mental state. And so I feel like it we shouldn't be the gatekeeper 25:22 to whether people can explore their subconscious like you said. 25:27 >> So I completely agree and I I I just and I you know we have alcohol and other 25:32 mindaltering substances that are legal and so there's other substances that are 25:36 technically way less harmful to the body that I think should also be legal. 25:42 >> Absolutely. And that that's a really good point to bring up. There was the 25:45 study that um David Nut uh did where he you compare the the relative harm of 25:51 substances of you know different substances and alcohol and tobacco are 25:55 much more harmful than psilocybin for example. 25:58 >> Yeah, I read that study. It's it's it's so interesting the the graph that they 26:02 put and psilocybin and LSD are down at the very bottom and with nearly any harm 26:06 to the body at all. Um alcohol is the highest. It's wild. 26:10 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I did want to ask about um so I listened to the 26:15 other podcast that you did and you kind of started to talk about these 26:18 archetypal experiences that people have um on ketamine and other psychedelics as 26:24 well, but I know you mentioned ketamine specifically brings up these very 26:28 archetypal experiences. I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit 26:32 more about that and how that helps us heal, if that makes sense. 26:38 >> Yeah. Um I I think kind of at this point I have um a more experience in medicine 26:45 sessions with with folks with ketamine because it's you know legally available 26:50 and and that yeah and that's what you know at this point I I've done a lot 26:53 more ketamine work with with people than than I have in the clinical trials. So I 26:58 I've seen lots of different types of experiences and I think the idea of 27:04 archetypal content is also it's a very uh yungian uh perspective. So like depth 27:10 psychology um the idea that in within our psyches 27:16 we have this there this kind of wide range of this of um archetypal 27:22 characters within our own psyche. And sometimes and there there's a a a method 27:28 of psychotherapy called internal family systems that is there it's it's kind of 27:32 a similar archetypal perspective um but it gives people a language 27:39 to talk about their experiences. So often with PTSD for example um they'll 27:46 be a protector like some sort of protector you know and and so when we 27:52 think about hypervigilance that protector has like an overblown 27:58 responsibility and it's always on and so like you it you start to you know and 28:03 maybe you have like an internal mother like an internal you know caregiver 28:08 um a lot of people have like an inner critic um you know and we these little 28:13 characters start to come come up. Um, and it just gives a way to discuss to to 28:19 kind of have a conversation with with a patient about their experience 28:26 when I think like as a society, as a culture, we're not really great about 28:30 talking about our feelings, you know, and we're not we're definitely not great 28:34 about talking about different parts of ourselves. Um, and so it just kind of 28:39 makes it a little bit easier. Um, and I think in the psychedelic space so often, 28:45 more often than not, um, the insightes that we're getting are symbolic and 28:51 that's kind of it's it's not literal. It's not logical. It's not, you know, a 28:57 teacher standing in front of you telling you what you need to change. It's like 29:01 so much more symbolic than that. And um you know having these like you know 29:06 being able to to discuss like with an archet type of lens um makes it a little 29:12 more palatable maybe and makes it a little bit easier to 29:18 step aside from the the literal translation. You know, because 29:23 a lot of times with psychedelics and you see this a lot in in recreational use 29:28 especially, you might get this insight that like I've got to quit my job, you 29:33 know, and it's like, is it really literally that you need to quit your 29:37 job? Is there something else that you need to look at? Often times it's not 29:41 that you need to like quit your job and move across the country and you know, 29:45 you know, it's more that like there's something uncomfortable that you need to 29:48 sit with. And so kind of thinking about it from an archetypal perspective allows 29:53 you to kind of work with the patient a little in in a like slowed down, you 29:58 know, less kind of like action where we're thinking about like, okay, let's 30:02 what's the next thing that we're doing. It's like how do we slow down and really 30:06 understand like what that feeling was or what that impulse, you know, to what 30:12 does it mean to to to to move or to quit, you know, and exploring that. 30:17 Yeah, that is so fascinating to me. Just the fact that when you take a 30:22 psychedelic or even in the dream state or anything like that, your mind puts 30:27 together this picture of archetypes that help you. You have to figure it out. 30:31 It's not just going to present it to you clearly, which I I think is so 30:35 fascinating. >> It um it reminds me a little bit of 30:39 tarot, which I know that you sometimes use tarot or oracle cards in your 30:44 practice. I'll just kind of give a quick explanation tarot, but for me, tarot is 30:50 basically a deck of cards. And every card uh represents a different archetype 30:54 of the human experience, particularly with the major arcana cards, which are 30:58 kind of the big archetypes, like you were saying, even there's the emperor or 31:01 um the the empress, which is the mother figure, and then there's the minor 31:05 arcana, which are kind of little day-to-day moments. And so, I feel like 31:08 that just ties so well with what you were just explaining. So, I'm kind of 31:12 curious how how you incorporate that. Like, do you use it during therapy or 31:17 would you pull a card based on what archetype the patient is expressing or 31:22 >> Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. I think, you know, depending 31:25 on the patient, I kind of lean into that more or less. Kind of the same thing for
Teaching Psychedelic History and Ethics 31:31 astrology. Um, I have a a background in archetypal astrology, so I kind of will 31:36 bring that in like transits and and that sort of thing. Um, the way that I think 31:40 about it and the way that I approach it with patients is just like we were 31:44 talking about archetypes, this is giving another it's it's giving more language 31:50 to talk about our feelings or our experiences. And even if we don't want 31:55 to fully buy in, you know, if a patient, for example, like I don't want to be 32:00 prescriptive or, you know, impose my worldview or or a worldview on a 32:05 patient, but um the kind of the idea that um we're giving 32:10 another way of being introspective or self-reflective 32:15 that even if you don't want to think that like if you draw a card that it's, 32:20 you know, telling you something, it's a question to yourself, what does that 32:24 mean to you? You know, like what does the moon card mean to you? Like when you 32:28 think of the moon, like what does that feel like? What does that evoke? It's so 32:31 much more participatory. And I think that that like using that as 32:36 a tool can be really useful, you know, and I I use uh archetype cards um or 32:43 like animal Kim Cray has an animal spirit deck that I really like that is 32:47 really kind of neutral, you know, it it's not that doesn't go in one 32:51 particular direction. And I think the the animal animals are easy to kind of 32:56 connect with for for people. Um so I use those um at the start of medicine 33:02 sessions to kind of help transition from the okay I'm thinking about my day. I'm 33:08 thinking about you know what you know what I was doing right before this or 33:12 even like my intent you know my intention for my medicine session. And 33:16 it helps transition from that kind of thinking into like okay now we're 33:20 connecting with something different. we're connecting to this eracular space 33:24 or this kind of um you know archetypal space or symbolic space um and kind of 33:30 lets your like a different part of your brain kind of engage which I think is 33:34 really helpful and useful when you're going into you know a psychedelic 33:39 journey. >> Yeah. Do you feel like so do would you 33:41 pull a specific card or would you kind of shuffle and draw a card and see what 33:45 the patient about it? Yeah, I I shuffle and have the patients pick a card and 33:49 then that's you know one of the qu one of the things that I really love doing 33:53 um in that kind of starting a a ketamine journey practice is um asking the 33:59 question what is something within me? So within the patient um that is supportive 34:05 on my journey today. >> Oh, I love that. 34:07 >> And so then it's like it's already something within you that's supporting 34:10 you, you know, it's like kind of like you can't lose. 34:13 >> Yeah. Yeah. That is so cool. I I love that so much. And I I love tarot and I 34:20 love psychedelics, but I feel like they do really go hand in hand together 34:23 because like you said, they're they're more like symbolic experiences that help 34:27 you explore your subconscious. >> Yeah, absolutely. 34:31 >> So, I know that you teach a course at CIS, the history of psychedelic 34:35 medicine, and I was so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more 34:39 about that course >> and what you kind of focus on when you 34:42 teach it. Yeah, absolutely. So, teaching this course at CIS, the California 34:48 Institute for Integral Studies in the Philosophy of Cosmology and 34:53 Consciousness uh master's program or it's a masters and a PhD program. 34:57 Teaching that course is one of my joys. I I just I I really love teaching and I 35:05 really love teaching this material and to um these graduate students. It's it's 35:11 yeah, just one of my favorite things. uh that I get to do and I feel so lucky 35:15 that I get to to do that. But the course because it's in a philosophy program I 35:21 um kind of have it's not just a history of psychedelics. So like what I do is we 35:27 we walk through the history of um humans using consciousness changing medicines. 35:35 So starting, you know, thousands of years ago, um, you know, in in caves in 35:40 Algeria and like the the bee man murals on the wall, you know, and like the bee 35:45 mushroom kind of the murals. So like all the way through into like visioning the 35:52 future of psychedelics. So like I kind of use this timeline and you know we 35:57 have these different modules and we have like you know deep history. We have like 36:01 you know the the the history of like the 60s like the the 50s and 60s the current 36:07 psychedelic um you know renaissance and the clinical trials that that were h 36:11 that are happening now and kind of into the future. And it's a discussionbased 36:16 course and um the questions that that we're kind of exploring are what are 36:23 these kind of like ethical philosophical um dilemmas and questions that come up 36:29 and we talk about like cultural appropriation. we talk about in so in 36:33 the 50s and 60s was you know Timothy Liry's method of kind of spreading you 36:40 know psychedelics to anyone and everyone or does kind of like a more elitist like 36:45 giving psychedelics to specific people and having like that trickle down into 36:50 policy like what approach is better and we kind of you know maybe there maybe 36:55 one isn't better than the other but kind of exploring you know those those 36:59 different things and So we kind of talk about different kind of ethical uh 37:04 dilemmas and one of the things that we were talking about kind of in our um the 37:09 last the kind of visioning the future and kind of the current moment is 37:13 capitalism and psychedelics, you know, and like patenting psychedelics and like 37:18 what does that mean and like who gets to own 37:21 >> psychedelics, right? and like you know who how you know and and we can learn a 37:26 lot from the cannabis industry and like kind of what's happened there. It's a 37:30 little different because of the the medical regulation and that we'll kind 37:34 of I don't think that like cannabis we will still have medical medical 37:40 psychedelics. [laughter] It won't I don't think we'll have just 37:43 like fully >> recreational like we do with cannabis. 37:46 But anyway, it's kind of those sorts of questions um that you know there aren't 37:51 any right answers I don't think but it's I think they're really important 37:56 questions to ask and to think about you know as we're you know we're actively 38:02 right now creating the future of psychedelic medicine like in this moment 38:07 like in this podcast as we're talking like we're helping sh we're helping 38:12 shape the way that we're thinking about these things. So I think yeah I think 38:16 it's important to to ask ourselves those sorts of questions. 38:18 >> Do you believe that or I guess not believe but um I'm sure it comes up in 38:22 your in your course the idea of the stoned ape theory where psychedelics 38:26 kind of helped our human minds develop through the ages and become higher 38:31 conscious beings. >> I think it's definitely possible. Um, 38:36 you know, I think Terrence McKenna um was the one who kind of uh came up with 38:42 that theory and I I think it's definitely possible. Um, I think that 38:46 there's it's hard to know, you know, I don't 38:49 think that we'll ever know for sure, but if you look at and I I learned a lot 38:54 about this like when I was ex, you know, doing the research for like putting this 38:59 course together, things like democracy come like the that like things that are 39:07 very psychedelic >> are like things that came out of 39:11 cultures that we're now learning use psychedelics. Oh wow. 39:16 >> So it's kind of it it you know I think that that's really interesting to kind 39:20 of to to think about and there was a there's a really awesome book, The 39:25 Immortality Key. >> That's what I thought you were thinking 39:28 of. Yeah, I've read that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's a really great 39:31 book that kind of talks about some of some of that stuff. So 39:34 >> yeah. Yeah, that is fascinating. I didn't even think about that side of 39:38 things, like the political development and how people Yeah. the cultures that 39:42 did more psychedelics had this more democratic society. That is that's 39:47 fascinating. That is >> Yeah. 39:49 >> Before we go, is there anything else that you'd like to share? Anything else 39:53 about psychedelics that's on your mind that you think we should think about 39:58 just like the philosophy questions and the ethics? Anything like that you want 40:02 to leave us with to ponder? [laughter] >> Um, that's a great question. I think the 40:08 thing that I think is probably the most important and I'm going on a limb by 40:12 saying I don't like to to to speak in extremes but I think that it's it it's 40:18 it is the the most important part of of this space and like what I'm dedicating 40:22 a lot of my energy towards um is this kind of the the public education piece 40:27 and the more that we understand about you know how to safely 40:34 use psychedelics the more that we educate our friends, the more that we 40:39 talk about our experiences openly, which is not always safe and, 40:44 you know, kind of use use your best judgment in in that in that regard. But
Public Education and Closing Thoughts 40:49 the more that we share our our own experiences with psychedelics and I 40:55 think that that's going to contribute to an overall safer culture because 41:01 legalization of psychedelics whether medical or or otherwise is coming. Um, 41:09 and if we if we don't understand the risks and how to use these things, you 41:15 know, to benefit ourselves and our friends and our communities, it can 41:20 potentially be really dangerous. So, the more that we can educate ourselves, the 41:25 more that we can read, um, I love psychedelic.sup support. I love double 41:29 blind magazine. Um there's a great newsletter from the psychedelics group 41:36 at Berkeley that's uh led by Michael Pollen 41:39 >> called the micro dose I think. >> Yeah. 41:41 >> Um >> I get that. 41:44 >> Yeah. So the more that we can educate ourselves Yeah. the I think the better 41:50 off we're going to be. >> I that's a really good point because it 41:52 it truly I think what is scares people now is the stigma that was created in 41:57 the 60s and 70s and a lot of that stuff just isn't true. I mean, of course, 42:01 psychedelics aren't um completely harmless. They, you know, can do a lot 42:04 in your mind, of course. >> But yeah, I agree. And thank you so much 42:09 for coming on. I really appreciate this conversation. I learned a lot. So, thank 42:13 you. >> Thank you for having me. This was a 42:16 really fun experience and I appreciate you inviting me. 42:21 >> Wow. Okay. So, thank you all for listening to all of that. As I mentioned 42:26 in the beginning, I really had so much fun recording this episode. It 42:31 definitely filled my cup by the end of this conversation because the two of us 42:35 share the same passion for demystifying psychedelics and educating the public 42:39 about what psychedelics really do and don't do that people think do. So, I 42:46 will go ahead and link to Dr. Willow's website and all of her social media 42:50 channels if you want to learn more about her and her work or connect with her. 42:55 But now, as promised, I wanted to give you all a little taste of tarot after 43:01 this little spiel. I am definitely planning on doing a full episode on the 43:04 tarot because I truly believe it is an integrative medicine mental health 43:09 technique that I have personally seen change people's lives in such a positive 43:14 and impactful way. So today I'm going to give you a little sample with a single 43:19 card. So this is episode number 13 of my podcast and today specifically is the 43:27 first day of Scorpio season for those of you that know anything about astrology. 43:32 So, I figured what better card to start with than card number 13, the card that 43:37 is associated with Scorpio and the card that typically is the one that scares 43:43 people away from the tarot due to its misconceptions portrayed in the movies, 43:48 but in my opinion, one of the most positive and healing cards in the deck. 43:53 So, I'm going to tell you a little bit about the death card. So, when the death 43:58 card comes up, when you pull it for your single card pull or it comes up in one 44:03 of your tarot spreads, it does not mean you're going to die. It does not mean 44:08 someone around you is going to die. It's really not about the physical body dying 44:13 at all. It's not even the last card in the major arcana. It's actually right in 44:18 the middle of the journey. So, the major arcana is the part of the tarot deck 44:23 that starts with the fool and goes along the fool's journey and ends with the 44:28 world. And death is actually right in the middle. The death card is a 44:33 beautiful and transformative card that truly paves the way for rebirth and 44:38 growth, which is why it's in the middle. Just like the importance of the mcelium 44:43 populating the ground and clearing away decay to create new life, the death card 44:48 is an archetype [clears throat] of representing finally an end to a 44:51 vicious cycle which is often happening in your mind or in your life, not 44:56 physically you as a human being. It can indicate a toxic trait or an experience 45:02 that you finally put to rest. You let that experience die in order to level up 45:08 and expand your consciousness. Without death there is no life. And even 45:14 in French, and I do not speak French, so excuse me for my terrible French accent, 45:19 but leit which literally means a little death is a term used for an orgasm. 45:26 Named because you transcend the body through this experience. 45:30 And there is so much more that we could talk about. The death card. It's 45:34 definitely one of my favorite cards whenever it comes up in a reading. But 45:38 with that, I will leave you a little preview of what our next episode is 45:43 going to be about. So, thank you all. I appreciate you 45:47 listening. If you liked this episode, please subscribe and share so we can get 45:52 the conversation started about integrative and psychedelic medicine. 45:57 Let's dstigmatize it and have open-minded conversations so we can 46:01 fully explore what this could mean in the world. 46:05 [music] 46:15 >> [music]
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