Hey, folks, I'm so glad you came back. It's going to be another great day and a great interview with Doctor Smith. He's a natural, empathic doctor. He's a clinical director for Zeno's health.

So this is very interesting. That's a traveling naturopathy medical clinic serving the rural communities of Saskatchewan, Canada. So he's a fellow Canuck now.

He's an expert in violence medicine. We're going to ask him about that, including hydrotherapy, botanical medicine, homeopathy, physical manipulation and nutrition.

Of course. And he's mentored and trained with some of the most well-known doctors of this generation. He's also an adept counselor and life coach. He specializes in finding the underlying causes, of course, of disease, instead of just treating symptoms and managing disease.

And of course, stimulating the body's own capacity to overcome, repair, heal, rebuild all these kinds of things. And, when it comes to problems like, gut illness, pain disorders, hormones and metabolic issues, as well as mental illness and addiction, addiction, the process doesn't change.

He handles those the same way. Of course. And, Doctor Gurley serves as an editor and education director for the Naturopathy Doctors news and review. Big famous magazine, I guess, and was founding member, chairman of the professional nonprofit organization Association for Naturopathy revitalizing Asian.

So we can see doctor know you're a true leader in the natural profession. And, I'll note, too, that you are happily married and enjoys the freezing cold weather. Saskatchewan.

If I was going to draw a picture of a natural plastic doctor in Saskatchewan, I would draw you and you pictures probably right there in the dictionary for, you know, Saskatchewan naturopathic doctor.

Yeah. So welcome to the show. Say hello to the folks. And, tell us a little bit more about your background. Oh, yeah. Thanks for. That was great. Hey, everybody tuning in.

I'm really glad that to be here and to share some of my experience and maybe my expertise. Or maybe not with you, but I hope that you get something out of it.

I would like to make one, minor edit on the bio. The introduction. And for those of you who can read between the lines, I'm not exactly the clinical director of Zeno's health.

And that has to do with my immigration status. So I'm actually not working in Canada at the moment. And so I'm the sea director for me and our an associate editor, and, innocent non-working bystander for my wife's, my wife's company.

It's Zeno's Health, which is a traveling clinic and amazing creative and innovative, business model, which, if we get into talking about that, maybe not. It's very cool.

Check it out. It's Zeno health.com. That's x, E and OS, health.com. Very cool. But I am not technically, working for that clinic at this time. And I'm licensed in in Oregon, not Saskatchewan, Canada.

So, just a minor edits there. Sorry, Reid, I didn't know that I sent that bio over to you. Yeah, no, I, I, you know, I, we get bios that aren't exactly up to date.

I know sometimes I send, you know, someone start reading my bio, go, hey, that's like that's an old one. You know, where they help, they get that off the website or, you know, whatever.

So I, I'm still you. But so tell us a little bit more about what you do do and your background, a bit like how did you get what made you become an MD? No, no, totally.

And it sounds like that's the conversation that we want to have today. So, if you're if you're thinking about becoming an advocate, a doctor, or maybe, you already have an application into one of the several schools around the country or in Canada, or you're trying to decide between coming in and or becoming a health coach or life coach or becoming, you know, a special list in the, in a holistic area like herbalism or a homeopath or something like that.

You know, I became a natural path because I really was under the impression that I needed to get a doctorate, of some kind, that that was just something that I needed to do in my life.

And, you know, 12 years after the fact, I wouldn't necessarily say that that was, you know, that the greatest goal or the the greatest purpose to, to to hold me to getting my education over 12 years period of time.

But it is what it is, you know, and I am a doctor now, and it's great. And I have a, have a wonderful time doing all the things that I get to do. But I started out, actually humanities, my undergraduate degree is in literature.

I went to school in Bellingham, Washington, at Western Washington University. I, as a hobby, went back to school several times to to take classes in psychology, especially anything to do with clinical psychology.

So I probably have the equivalent of an entire clinical psychology degree as well. It's just something that I really enjoy and, and connect with on a, on a social level.

And my sister's actually a clinical psychologist. So when we get together, that's kind of all we talk about the medical side of things related gets couched for the most part.

But then I was living in Eugene, Oregon, and I had, had a girlfriend at the time who was seeing in that path and, and I was all, all slated to go to the University of Chicago and get my, PhD in comparative literature.

And I wanted to be a professor. And I thought, you know, I met this naturopath and he started talking about holistic paradigms and, and, you know, addressing the underlying cause.

And he started we started talking about, like, social structures and community and how, you know, sustainable agriculture influences health and how community, you know, you know, how how being a part of a community, influences how how being in nature influences health, how the industrial revolution has influenced medicine.

And, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I thought, sure, I this is, I, I intuitively understand this. I know I'm a very holistically minded thinker.

And then I started thinking about books that I read in psychology, clinical psychology, like Deepak Chopra and, you know, people like that. Andrew, Andrew, while, you know, and I, you know, I could be a other doctor, I could do this.

And I could touch a lot more people than being a professor at a university in comparative literature. So I put in my application and, well, a few months later, the rest is history.

Hey. Right on. That's fantastic. No. So, something in your bio that, I wanted to ask you about right away because, you don't see this written down very much in bios or anywhere these days.

It's, it says you're an expert in vitalism medicine, including, you know, a few examples of that, but the term vitalism, I think, is, maybe not quite understood.

My understanding of vitalism is that was the original argument between Pasteur and his opponents. You know, he came up with the germ theory, basically, and his opponents were more into the vitalism that was the host.

It's not the. So is that, correct? Yeah. Like a very broad summation of what a vital is. Yeah. You know, that's super interesting read. And I would say that that's definitely an element of vitalism, that the terrain or the internal, you know, what's going on on the inside, an organism has a lot more to do with the manifestations of disease and symptoms and, and, and disease process.

And I would say at a more fundamental level, vitalism has the, basic assumption. And so just walking in and talking to a violinist, or if you have a vital ist perspective, you have a basic assumption that that human organism or physiologically, you know, living beings cause animals to have all of the innate properties to heal themselves, that there's nothing that needs to be introduced to that organism to solve a problem.

And so this is, you know, if if they're, you know, if you're, a religious person, a Christian or a muslim or a Sikh or Hindu or Buddhist, you intuitively understand this concept.

This is the idea that we are divinely created beings. Oh, shoot. And you know, finally getting a phone call, just go on. Yeah. So that we are divinely created beings, all of the all of the structure and energy and spirit and soul that is necessary for us to live complete, happy, balanced, wonderful, beautiful lives is intact.

We don't need we don't need anything into the system to, you know, heal us or make us better. That which then kind of circles back to the disagreement between pasture and and terrain theories, which I wish I had some names to drop there because there are, like, I think the champ be.

Yeah. Beauchamp or Sharp was his main detractor at the time, right? Yeah. Okay, great. So the the idea that terrain is influenced by all of these other things and route and exists as the main foundation of disease and it's not it's not a, yeah. I think I'll just stop there.

I think that's a yeah. That's good. So that's, that's how I was introduced because I'm not a physician. And yet I really wanted to help people. 20 years ago I, I said I'm going to help people and I'm going to figure out what's really wrong with them.

And I've been a physician. I studied alternative self-healing, you know, but still very scientific. There's no voodoo involved, you know, in the understanding, the innate.

So the innate loomed very large in my ability to help people. It's like we coach up the innate. We work with the innate. That's vitalism. But I also have to say that I would consider myself a new fatalist, because all that's great until, you know, you get ebolavirus and then you die, you know, so you don't.

So so there's room for everybody. This is how I first started my idea of, you know, integrating with, physicians and understanding what my backyard is, which is to help that person, you know, learn and grow in every way, every cell, tissue, organ system.

And, yeah, you know, there's a point where you might hand them off to a physician and the other way around, because if they, you know, get off a plane from West Africa and their temperature's 105, they're bleeding from the eyeballs.

They're not. I don't call your nutritionist. You know, I can go get some attendant care. So there's a beautiful way that both wealth systems have a wonderful, place in the world.

To help us help others. And so, but I just had to ask you about that because I never see anyone claiming vitalism as their, except maybe natural person.

And those of us are educated in that way, so that's fantastic. Now, also being, up in Canada and having this, traveling naturopathy medical clinic, which I know as your sisters.

But just tell us whether it's yours or hers, you know, how does that work? Because it's rural people call you up and say, hey, grandma's sick, or how does that work?

Yeah, it's not exactly like that. Though there is space for home visits. What happens is that, you know, we moved up here, my wife, and I started talking about, like, how, how do you innovate?

How do you get creative with the tools that you have and the resources available to you to practice in a an area that has a population density similar to what most people will be watching this similar to literally the middle of nowhere.

You know, I live in a big town. I live in a big city for a year of 6000 people, and I bet most of the people who are watching this don't even have a a a reference point of what that what that means.

And, and my wife and I are about to move to a town of 300 people, which actually would be technically called a village. So, you know, that's that's the situation.

You can't you can't put up a brick and mortar clinic in a town like that. And depend on, clients or patients from your immediate area. So one thing that we rely on is, the, the very, the very reality that people are used to traveling anywhere from two hours would be a normal.

Let's get in a car and and go down the block for something, you know, anywhere to four hours. And that's a normal, normal thing to get the services that that you require and need and desire up here.

So, so that's one part of the puzzle. And another part of the puzzle is we have a pretty robust network of friends and family up here who are interested in getting macroscopic or holistic medicine to themselves, their friends and their families.

So we leverage that network, you know, just like we leverage our network on the internet. And, and in print media years ago to build these pop up clinics in various areas.

So there's six pop up clinics that the clinic that our CRV drives around to with all of the components to set up an entire clinic, in about 30 minutes and start seeing patients for the day.

And at each one of these locations will be there anywhere from one day to if if it's within driving distance in a day and back to three days. So there's, a clinic in the far north Queensland on it's on the Manitoba Saskatchewan border.

And because it's a 6.5 hour drive up there and we stayed for three days and I, you know, do a lot of computer work at the houses that we stay at instead of going to the clinic and working.

So, yeah, that's fascinating. I was just going to say that you got to really want to help people if you're going to go to that. Yeah, that kind of effort, you know, and, truly, you and your team, have this in your hearts and, you know, you're it's kind of old fashioned and, romantic in a sense.

You know, it's it's great. You know, you up there with your wife and leave it. You know, this could work. I would I would say that it's old fashioned in a sense, but in the sense that it's innovative and willing to really think outside the box and be creative.

I think it's exactly what a lot of people right now, and probably the people that are interested in this summit are already doing, are already thinking about how they can take Technol technology and leverage it in a way to make whatever they want to do work.

And so now, respect, I find that it's a real cutting edge model. Yeah. And that's true too. You know, I think that, I mean, most technology to me, when I was building my practice was a pager and a fax machine, you know?

So I really, had to learn a lot in the last ten, 15 years, last few years, especially with digital marketing and stuff. But I have coached my graduates up that they probably should do something locally.

Before you try to become an internet star, you know, like, you should go out and do some talks and lectures and things right now with social distancing, that could be a little bit hard, but you should still plan on getting together with some groups of people and just speak to them directly about what you do, and then you'll build up some clientele, and then they know people who know people know people, and it could spread all over the country or planet really easily.

I had no idea when I created our education program that it would be in 50 countries, like pretty. It was just every month it was there's another one and there's another one.

And it's after all these years, we're spread out quite a bit, but not thin. We're very robust, you know, as an international business. And anyone could do that.

Tell us, this idea, because the subject matter today, the audience, I wanted you to talk to someone who was really knowledgeable in, you know, health coach certification versus going to get your doctorate because, there's people like, I've had 1 or 2 of my PhD in practitioners that said, you know what?

You you need to go get a license to to do things at the level that you want to do. You're going to get in trouble, you know, so go get a license and then you can do that stuff that health coaches don't do.

I've been very, provided a lot of leadership in the area of what is the health coaches because we've expanded it, but we run labs, we interpret labs from a holistic healing opportunity versus diagnosis and treatment, point of view.

And it's very safe. It's very effective. It's, it's cutting edge. And, of course, now, you know, we use a lot of technology to see your clients, but we've been doing that for over ten years.

I haven't had a brick and mortar since about 2010, you know? And so when Covid hit, we're already working from home, you know, because it's the sweetest lifestyle to work out of your house and live the lifestyle you want and still, be able to earn a very, very good living puts up nicely for your retirement or grandkids or whatever it is.

You know, we're all doing pretty good, if they follow the model. But let's talk about health coach certification versus doctorate from the start with, like your current role, like, in, in the health space.

Yeah, totally. And before I do, I would just I just want to reiterate what you said read. And I think and it's great and illuminating for me to hear you say, that you have come to people with your certification and said you need to go and get a higher level of education because you want to do it, maybe even are doing your needs.

That sort of and I would say, I would say for those out there watching and resonating with that or that, it's the same. On the flip side, there are people going through natural Catholic medical school who I would I would tell especially in that first year, what you want to do with with your life and your your career, what your purpose is.

Don't get a natural path, a degree you do not need to go into this much debt, to be an herbalist, to be a homeopath, to be a counselor, to be a spiritual guru.

You know, there are a lot of people who sign up for the for this type of education who really don't want all that responsibility. They don't want to do lab interpretation.

They have really, opposing or yeah. Opposing views on diagnosis in general. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, it really is a question of, what's your purpose?

What do you want to do ideally, ideally with your education, because once you get in for five, six years, if you're not clear about what your ideals are and your purpose are, your education will drive your career.

And that could be something that you don't really want. Yeah. Funny. Yeah. I'm so glad you put it that way, because I've also had the other side too, were chiropractors and, matchups.

AQ punctures have taken my courses and. Wow, I could have saved myself, a ton of money if I just know, you, you know, a few years ago, even. And, because it is a it's a, it's a, you know, at least master's or PhD level course.

We teach anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, we teach the science behind the diet and lifestyle things, you know, and it's so it's very robust, but it doesn't cost $150,000 or even a 10th of the.

I did a study the other day. The average chiropractor, when they graduate with their doctorate in chiropractic, is $150,000 in debt, and they haven't bought any equipment or rented the space or hiring the staff.

And they certainly don't have any customers yet, you know, and they're all they're already under this like, no. The other funny thing is, according to Forbes.

So according to Forbes. So, I just read the research and the average salary is about $85,000 a year. So you're not enough to pay all that back. Yeah, it.

And in some states, some states like Wyoming, it's about $50,000 a year. So it's just not a good return on investment or bargaining. And you don't need to do it.

And what you said was even more important than the money, which is it is not so much the the money, the investment and getting it back. And, the responsibility of answering to a board, you know, like a licensing board is that they're not having any fun like they're not, there really helping people that live in their passion because they've got to do building codes and and play the game and things like that, like up in Canada.

I know you have the, the socialized medicine, but but here it's it's a nightmare to get paid because I did billing for a, for a wellness center, 20 years ago.

I was responsible for everything, and it makes it pretty. It takes all the fun out of it. Like you said. Yeah. And I practiced in Portland, Oregon, where the the scope of practice is very is very broad.

We're considered primary care physicians in Oregon and Washington and a lot of other states where you're probably tuning in from California. BC is the only Canadian province where we're considered more or less primary care and have a pretty robust, formulary where we can prescribe medications.

Which does mean that we can take people off of them. But the, the subtlety to that and there's, you know, there's some responsibility and some and some conflict in that, in that even.

But anyway, yeah, working with, with, with insurance companies and, and getting jobs and clinics that bill and code it, it puts you into the conventional paradigm of medicine in a way that I think a lot of people at the onset of making these decisions and it's education, really don't want and are not really interested in.

It's definitely not a life giving, enterprise to be involved in coding and charting a certain way and then getting, you know, paid, you know, pennies on the dollar for your time.

That just is not compatible with the conventional model of coding. And, and yeah. So anyway, that I mean there we can get into the weeds just. Yeah. No I think an hour.

Yeah. I think the point is that you can become a really good certified health coach for about a 10th or less of the investment of a doctorate, and you can make more money than you know.

Oh yeah, for sure. My first. Yeah. And I would say the model, the model for health coaching is already built to make more money to be financially. Financially successful, financially secure.

Whereas the model, the model for naturopathy really doesn't exist. It's you're an entrepreneur. As soon as you graduate, there's no model to to automatically plug yourself.

Yeah. You know, so it's it's something that you really have to build yourself. And if you have, you know, you're going to be surrounded by a lot of people and, and within a culture that very much has a poverty mindset, has the mindset, we can't ask too much money for our services because people really need this.

And so we have have to give it away. And I don't want to get into that too much. But it's there and it's it will be a struggle. Let's let's look at it as, you filling us in on how you got that perspective.

Like, you can talk about your current role in the health care industry or what are some of the other jobs you've had because you're of the strong opinion?

I'm hearing that, if it's the enjoyment and fun that you want, and, the rich rewards of being a, fully qualified health coach just go get the health coaching thing.

So, whilst you have that perspective. Or a degree or a certification and like a, an intensive in herbalism or, you know, take core, take intensive long distance courses for homoeopathy that, you know, you can take from Germany or France or, India or homeopathy is a real science and people are using it to treat all kinds of illnesses, acute as well as chronic, you know, I mean, there's, you know, and if you're interested in that, you already know and, and what I would say is, and my experience in this regard is more on the successful people, people in, in any industry are the people who know about business, know it's it's hardly ever the education in your industry that sets you apart, and especially right now with with technology driving so much in industry, it's who can visualize and creatively innovate and apply their education in a way that's going to reach the most people and ultimately build the most value for those people.

There's tons of natural paths out there who are way smarter than me. My wife is one of them, way smarter than me. Almost every single match or path is a better doctor than me.

But I can creatively innovate. Yeah, I can see if I can see a problem and automatically have three solutions for it. And so and I feel like that's that would that was my previous statement.

I'm. I'm sorry. Duck. Well, I'm sure you're a great doctor, you know? And, and and but you don't have to be one to help a lot of people. And if you have some not so much of general skills, then you could make it.

Well, as a independent health coach, this is something I'm noticing going on in the industry is that, health the term health coach is being kind of appropriated by standard medicine, and the only research being done right now, the only research being done, but clinical trials.gov or something like that, is whether health coach can help people remain compliant to their medication in your bowel disease case.

You know, so it's like I'm kind of fear this, coming dilution, you know, of of what some of the more advanced health coaching really could be the kind of a doctor would want to do.

And so but let's get back to you and your story, you know, because I think it's fascinating where you get this perspective from, and you're very humble.

But this is more, it seems to shine and tell us what you do. Great. And, what are the jobs if you had or if you've ever been in another industry to get this?

Yeah. You know. Yeah. So I would say that my biggest, my, my job experience is very, is very varied. And I would say it's definitely humble. My parents on a janitorial company.

And so I kind of grew up, you know, trading a lot of employees, training, employees how to, provide a service through the use of a system. And you know, how to schedule and how to how to, big work, and, you know, the type of value that, that people have when they don't have to think about something or when they don't have to think a lot about something and have, you know, something taken care of for them.

And then as I got in the school, I started working with groups and organizations. And so I started really it really enjoying, thinking about how organizations interact with one another, the type of content that organizations use to, train and facilitate, their culture, their, their service, their, their value for the industry that they're a part, a part of.

And I really started getting interested in, experiential education and, and so in the, in the health sector, and this is what the nonprofit that I founded as a medical student was, is a is it it worked with experiential education to build, better cohesiveness within the profession, transmit, wisdom from an elder population of physicians who are were just chomping at the bit to access and distribute their knowledge and wisdom to a younger doctor student population.

So, so, yeah, but what this kind of means, I'm talking about retreats. I'm talking about retreats and seminars and live events. So that's that's kind of my niche and what I really shine.

And it's like, I'm, I'm the committee. Committee, chair for our professional associations conference. That happens every two years here. And it's just like something that I really enjoy doing.

It's it's very interesting, to me to see how big groups can cooperate and collaborate amongst themselves and network with other organizations to produce something that is delivered to a group of people who have no idea how that process happened.

It just poof. And it's there for people. So I really like that the magic of of how to do that. And yeah, I would say, yeah, I really like I really like the, the introspective process and the personal growth that goes into collaborating with multiple people, at the same time to do something.

Yeah. You know, like, I affiliate the clustering. Club. So, yeah, it makes life interesting. It's not all roses. Look, the way I'm happy most of the time because I've design my life that most of the time I'm getting my own way.

And I just think people need that perspective. If things aren't going your way, if you're not getting your own way, at least most of the time, not all the time, perhaps some of the crap I have to do.

But I'm still a happy person because most of the time, yeah, things are going my way and I'm kind of getting where. So really, life is about that to me.

If you want to be happy, no. Sometimes it's going someone else's way and I'm able to go along. I'm sort of nonchalant and, you know, I could play team member and all that stuff, but, I think you brought a really nice perspective to that.

What about this? Go back to your natural degree, because you got the net is considered in our, world, you know, the ultimate or gold standard of holistic natural medicine.

So there was always yeah, when I, when I first moved to California in the 80s, they weren't licensed or natural, weren't licensed to California. And next, you know, they had their own board.

Now they're licensed, now they have this, you know, standard care and things, and it's still considered way high up there in terms of the ultimate gold standard of natural health.

What do you. Yeah. And then there's the chiropractors. So they think that they've got a corner on that. Or there's the, you know the acupuncturist. They've got a corner because they got oriental medicine and all that, stuff, which I and love both of those things. But.

So where do you put in that perspective. And now because now you have coaching, you have coaches. I've had doctors give up their license after taking my course.

Not that they needed all the anatomy, physiology. What they needed was the point of view and the business model that they could see clients all over the country.

You can see clients or you know, they're not you know, you're not practicing medicine anymore. You just have your medical knowledge background, but you're being a health coach.

And so this is a great discussion. What's your view on that. Yeah. So that's super interesting. Well first I would say that that naturopathy to be a natural the doctor is the premier gold standard of education within the holistic realm.

Like you're not going to get away from that. You're not as a health coach. You're not going to be the the staff doctor for nature Surgical Company. You're not going to, you know, be the, you know, director or the chairperson of, you know, integrative medicine at, you know, the Saint Joseph's Hospital or whatever, you know, in Seattle or.

Right, you know, that's just not going to happen for you. Right? And if that's important, if that's important for you, that's on your bucket list of like, I want to be a medical professional that wears a white coat, but I want to be a little bit different a little bit I want hard a little bit more.

Yeah. You know then yeah, you need to be a candidate. But if that's not your goal, if you, if you just want to help people, if you want to be more like, you know, the barefoot doctor who has a little bit of this and a little bit of that and mostly works with people on behavioral change.

And that's something that's, you know, you there's some of us who who really see the writing on the wall in terms of, you can lead a horse to water, you can get people all of that holistic information that you can possibly think of.

You can build a diet for them. You can make a workout plan for them. You can give them a, a structure of, you know, a mindfulness meditation schedule for their morning routine, all these things.

And at the end of the day, if they don't have the tools to make those behavioral changes and implement those treatment plans, they're the they're not getting anywhere. Yeah.

And that's where good health coach and a good doctor, no matter what kind of doctor they are who accentuates that behavioral change in their practice through whatever tool that they use, whether it's motivational interviewing, whether it's, like we do somatic experiencing, which is a trauma body based traumatic, reprocessing technique, which addresses what I believe to be a most foundational element of people not being able to make behavioral change in their lives.

If you use hypnosis or neuro linguistic programing, you know, like there's all these tools that are absolutely available to a health coach and the natural path, you know, similarly with the same exact effect if you're good at using that.

So the question is, you know, becomes what do you want to use in your practice? What's the lowest common denominator that you want to work with. And if it's a lot of those core elements are not really considered medicine.

You know, by conventional standards. So as soon as you start really wanting to spend most of your practice, most of your time working with people at that level, you're you're not you're going to you're going to feel like you're not being a doctor if you're a doctor or a chiropractor and and then you're going to see these health coaches doing that.

And yeah, they didn't need the education that you have. And I inverse that I think I kind of switched my audience there halfway through. So I apologize for that.

No. We're good. You we're on track. We're still on track. Talking about the difference between, you know, a health coach and a the naturopathic physician, which one do you want to invest in?

One's obviously a much more, expensive, you know, endeavor, like getting a license in anything because of the background. You have to have, you know, but but, and just this, your this, your cost of things, and you're not working.

You don't have any customers yet, but, what are some of the other differences between health coaching and nets repair that physician. Yeah. And that's a good that's a that's a great question, Reed.

And there are there are tons of differences. You know, as a health coach, you can't diagnose you're not going to be able to work with people's medication in a responsible way.

You're not going to be able to call up a hospital or an integrative care setting and, you know, ask for faxes and records the same way that I can. You're not going to be able to, you know, you know, and then, you know, and socially, if that's your thing, like when you go to conferences and stuff, like you will be looked at, you know, perceived slightly, you know, differently and you know, whether that's a reality, or not doesn't have anything to do with it.

It's it will happen. And you have to prove yourself a little bit more to do some of the things that you might want to do. You know, also, the use of some of these tools in a medical capacity is drastically different.

Okay. So even using some of the tools that you might have access to as a health coach, if you take some, you know, some additional courses like herbal medicine or, homeopathy or, you know, even hydrotherapy, you know, using like the Wim Hof technique for, you know, certain, you know, certain effects, the use of those in a medical capacity is still not something that's going to be in your wheelhouse.

And if you're using it like that, I absolutely, you know, don't deny the fact that you may have the, the, the knowledge that allows you to see how you could use those things in a medical capacity, but without the license, you're practicing medicine without a license, which we would never do.

So, you know, when you do that as a health coach, right? Like you're going to be seeing people who are already diagnosed with it with an illness. They do probably or may have a treatment plan from someone else.

In a medical like for a medical condition. And you're going to be supplementing that with certain elements of behavioral change. Exercise, diet, nutrition, you know, things like that from a non-medical sense.

And if you want to be. So let me pause. That's what you'd be doing as a health coach. If you want to be that point of contact, what we would call a primary care practitioner or, you know, primary care health worker, and that's where, oh, man, come, when someone comes to you without a diagnosis and it's your job to intake them, do a review systems do like, a history do an Ross, do an assessment and a plan.

Something we call a soap. No, no, no. And whether or not you're going to submit that to, to insurance or not is irrelevant. But if you want to be doing that and then give a diagnosis and give a plan that specific for that, then you need do you need medical training.

And that's and you need a medical license to do that. If that's not really your bag and you don't really care what the diagnosis is because you're going to be working with behavioral change, you know, then then you know, and you don't need yeah.

You know, it's really a great discussion. I'm glad you're pointing these things out. You know, because there is a difference. And we the truth is, we don't want any parts of diagnosis and treatment of disease.

We don't know if they've already got that, if they've been to 3 or 4 different doctors already before they come to us and they just want to know, like basically, you know, do you know what's wrong with me?

Because my doctor says there's nothing wrong with me or my doctor says, I've got this, but, all he does is give me medication for it. Or, you know, these kinds of things.

That's the problem with with, standard medicine is people don't really get healthier, using that system. They get out of pain and they get managed and their life is better, and that's all a good thing.

But they're really not getting to the healing repair. They're not there's no there's not no vitalism in that system. And so we're, we're we're the other back yard.

Well that's fine. So a friend of mine has described it as, you know, if you are drowning you need a life preserver real quick, you know, and that's, that's again I said, if you get off a plane with this high temperature and eyes bleeding, you don't want to call your nutritionist, your health coach.

You go get attendant care. You get out of the woods. You get that life jacket on and get over to the edge of the pool. Well, now you're in our backyard and we're going to, you know, keep there and nurture you and, work on every cell, tissue, organ system simultaneously.

We don't we don't treat anything specifically. We treat everything nonspecific. Again. So most of the chronic degenerative diseases today come from lifestyle, stressors of different various types in poor environments and, and all these inputs.

And then within a week, links in metabolism. God knows what you're going to get, you know? So that's why people show up with all these complaints that they're really not getting it.

The, what's upstream, you know, so we can help with that. And that is doing a lot of good in the world. And I have no problem in the junior partner. If someone has a true medical condition that needs, some management because there are, there are, donor of spirals in health that are so contracted, that the, you know, the observations I could make as health coach can't be capitalized on.

Well, they're going so fast. Hey, you got to go over here, you know, and and thank God we have that type of care, you know, but, so we, we kind of have this bridge up to that point.

I feel like we own the bridge. You know, the coach is kind of that bridge. That's our territory. And and, we don't have it. It's not like. I don't mean, like peeing on someone's territory.

Just meant, you know, the two can work, very well together. And if you're, And again, I've had medical doctors who literally gave up their license because they just wanted to be a health coach, and they get the rewards and not deal with insurance.

You know, it's a basically an all cash practice system. And so that's got its advantages and disadvantages. What are some of the other differences know about.

So you know, there's there's these differences like you can't diagnose and treat and we don't want to we can't wear x rays or, or you know, scans of any kind.

That's okay. Most of people have been kind of screened up and told, like, you're you're good, you know, so all that tires, fatigue, can't sleep and overweight and, you know, even some of the deeper things, you know, sinuses, allergies, moodiness, irritability because you mentioned the middle one, you know, there are underlying things that can, that are influencing that that need to be figured out, sorted out and then reversed.

And the observations we can make is health coaches that are going to move that person towards health and happiness. So any other differences or if you had to recommend, you know, what should someone look for if they're considering becoming a health coach, versus a and that's a plastic doctrine.

Yeah. No, that's a great question. And I would say that the difference in the I think the similarities between a natural path, natural path, a doctor and a health coach far outweigh the differences.

Like everything that you're saying right now, you know, things that a natural path, a natural part of a doctor would be. Definitely consider well within their wheelhouse of understanding and expertise as well.

And then and then there is the added piece that is doing the medicine and the holistic medicine, like, you know, herbal medicine and homeopathy and hydrotherapy and and even, you know, some of the off label uses of pharmaceuticals like naltrexone or, I mean, yeah, so like things, like things like that, simultaneously.

So that's definitely a big difference. But you know, for most, for a lot of a lot of cases, a lot of patients or clients that now have a doctor see, I mean, they're they either want to do very similar things that are that as a health coach would do or they are doing those things.

With their clients. So, yeah, I think, the specific training in, in all the modalities is definitely a major difference. You know, like manipulation and spinal manipulation is something that not having doctors learn.

Obviously we we had two years of herbal medicine. We have two years, you know, medical nutrition, you know, and then all of the, all the medical training in each specific, organ system and diagnosis and things like that.

And then our, you know, pharmacology is essentially the same as a medical doctor would receive in, in their base, like did Arctic training. It's just we don't tend to use it as, you know, frequently as a medical doctor would.

So our on the job internship training in pharmacology is is drastically different as you would. Yeah. Yeah. And then how is it similar to health coaching and that your perfect.

Oh that was similar. I mean magic the doctors are like working with behavioral change. We're working with I mean ideally ideally that's what we're we're working with right.

Making lifestyle changes. So that's how we see, you know, the greatest, effect to our, our patients or clients is, is when we can get them to start changing their lives, you know?

Yeah. Like, that's how they get healthy and happy like that is the goal is it's not just to manage their disease. Exactly. So it's it's, another common transformational, you know, experiences with, health provider, you know, you know, practitioner, you know, me, a coach or not you.

But I can definitely see the advantages of having some, training and and ability to do, you know, naturopathic doctoring. Some of the privileges that you get here and there.

But isn't it also kind of a handcuffs in some sense? Like what happens if you go outside your board's recommendation and you decide you want to do so?

You know, that isn't exactly approved and certainly not paid for by insurance, you know, so that could present some, some issues. And that's the one that these physicians are complaining about.

Man, I can't tell this person the right thing to do because it's not standard of care. Yeah. And there's I think that there's a lot more there's a lot more fear and apprehension at work that may be a reality in a lot of those cases.

You know, and you find drastically different opinions and drastically different applications of that theory. The older with with age, with experience, the older docs, the old folks who've been practicing for 30, 35, 40 years, who have, who have this natural medicine in a medical capacity since well before we were licensed, have absolutely no problem diagnosing, treating things with homoeopathy and herbs that our, our doctor, the younger doctors, would never in a thousand years be comfortable doing so.

There's a handful of younger doctors who work with those elder doctors who are getting a little bit of exposure to it, but it's drastically different than the more experience you have.

So that's a hard question to answer, but it's also a primary frustration with a lot of younger docs and students who think that they're going to go into naturopathic medical school and they're going to learn how to treat, some pretty crazy stuff using all empathy because they've heard the stories.

And that's that's not altogether true. It's it in some ways it is. It's definitely you get some exposure, but the doctors who are doing that kind of work are really a dying breed.

They're really there's not that many of them. There's not that many of them at each school. So the chances that you're going to be mentoring with them are actually very slim.

I would I would pitch at this point. There is an organization called NMR, the Natural Catholic Medical Institute, and they are really providing an adjunct service to naturopathy, Catholic doctors.

It's a it is exclusive to natural product doctors with who are licensed or students of natural Catholic medical schools, but it is providing some of some of that elder wisdom and knowledge and how to treat these advanced cases or scary emergent cases using natural therapies.

And likewise, that's something that you would never have access to as a health coach. Yeah. In my in my you can go look. Well, listen, I want to move on a little bit here, but, just to clean up on what we've just talked about.

What? Absolutely doesn't frighten me as much. It upsets me. It's like, you know, during the Covid 19, crises, you know, you were hearing, one side say, vitamin C, and then, man, that was like, heresy and voodoo witch doctors.

I mean, no, everyone knows that vitamin C can provide some health benefits, you know, and there might be some claims being made that exaggerated, but there's, you know, it's not going to hurt you.

You take some vitamin C and they take people. No, do not take vitamin C, you know, like you like for to boost your immune system or anything, like just, just, it's it's amazing how much of that, is being expressed and how vehemently like anti natural. Yeah.

Anti natural is huge. It's it's just and you know I would throw out I would throw out read to be it's not so much as it's not anti natural. It's anything that that looks like it is undermining the conventional paradigm.

Yeah. And and it's just you know it's a scary situation you know to be in a paradigm and have another paradigms viewpoint championing things that literally could be a game breaker in this kind of turf war that's that's happening.

So, you know, there's that. But you bring up another point that people should consider, in making the decision on what education to, to ultimately get themselves is that, you know, not for the doctors, even though we're doctors, even though we're licensed and consider primary care physicians in many states, in the United States and in BC in Canada, you know, we couldn't just come out and, you know, give our expertise in how to modulate and enhance the immune response in how to use, natural substances that are known to be anti-viral or have antiviral properties in a way that could help in certain instances.

We, you know, anything that was said by natural by a doctor in that regard was I mean, that's people were in trouble. People were having their their licenses, not their licenses taken away, but they were having their, their business licenses, and ability to conduct commerce taken away by, the FTC.

I mean, that was, you know, it was happening. So even though you're, we're talking about gold standard of education, and there might be this idea that you have this freedom, you know, with that education.

And that's not when the rubber meets the road. You're not a medical doctor and you're what you have to say is not valid. So yeah, we we're experiencing, plenty of that.

Whether your net, your particular health coach, you're going to, it's it's, often against conventional wisdom. You said, and they're still anti natural. So sometimes these you, you put it, you know, it's so, so I just have a really one or maybe two more questions for you, doc.

And it's about, you know, when would someone make that decision, like, they're deciding right now between, sitting in a really good, solid health coaching course.

There's a couple out there that are really good, or becoming in that you panic doctorate level training. What? When's a good time to make that decision or what should they. What would you like?

Totally know. That's a great. And I have a I have an instance I coached or I consulted with with a young lady who was, I think she was a massage therapist, if memory serves me correctly, who was interested in going to any school to become a natural Harvard doctor.

And we talked and I asked her a couple questions about what her end goal in terms of wanting to diagnose, and wanting to be a point of her first point of contact, health provider was, and that was what she wanted to do.

You know, she wanted to be that first contact person for somebody who didn't have a diagnosis or, needed help interfacing with the conventional medical world.

Having her lab, you know, like labs draw. She wanted to draw labs. She wanted to do the needlework. You know, that was important to her. I said, yeah, you got to go to any school or become a medical doctor, right?

To do those things. So awkward. If you know, if your answer to those, if your answer to those things are. I don't like needles. Yeah. You know, I never want to draw blood in my clinic.

Like, that's an I consider that to be an invasive procedure. You know, or if you, you know, really don't want a diagnosis. And you think that diagnosis, you know, putting a label on a disease really pigeonholes you, and it isn't thinking outside the box or isn't addressing, health or disease at the most foundational or even a more foundational level, then it's something that you might want to consider, you know, an alternative route to your career.

You know, health coaching would be a great thing to look into for sure. But I wouldn't necessarily limit myself to just health coaching, you know, especially if you're considering, you know, M. D.

school because you obviously have a sense that you want to be more medically inclined or are medical, more medically clients. And there are all kinds of different certifications to augment a health coaching certification, you know, like get some training in herbal medicine.

Yeah. You know, if you're if you're not a yoga instructor, go become a yoga instructor. You know, learn learn something that that puts you in contact with people and gives you some training in that regard.

Because you might not get that just doing a certification course online. So, I mean, there's all kinds of things to consider to think outside the box and how to get the education that you really need.

But here's the point that I want to make. If you are, if you know what you want to do, you if you are listening to this and you're like, I know that I want to, you know, be after the doctor or I know I want to be a health coach, but I don't really know, you know, what to do or take some business classes, take business classes, learn business terminology, learn marketing, learn some finances, learn how small businesses operate.

And in that, take some leadership courses and learn how to actually be an entrepreneur because more people fail after they get education because they don't have business sense, they're not having the education.

If you think that they it's the education, but it's not. It's the it's what you're going to do with that education after you get it. Man, I'm so glad you said that.

Thank you so much. That's actually a good place, to leave it. And by the way, you know, I have the FTN certification course and, people to come and practitioners, and you never stop learning.

We have at least six. We have eight now, advanced courses. One of them is herbalism. And, it's just another fascinating field that expands your knowledge of, you know, supplementation and herbal remedies.

Natural. It's natural stuff. And we have business courses, and it's, it's. You're just so spot on. Yeah. Because, I mean, I teach in the course, my style, how I built my practice.

So I don't want to work that hard to, you know, I just, I just look at that is pretty hard work. But but, but have managing your time and all those things, is all included now, any final words but your own personal views on success being a professional like that?

Because, you know, I'm here for the to help build up, health coaching as a profession, not a hobby. It's a vocation, not an application. To me, it's fine if you want to be an, you know, hobbyist, but we're really here for that.

So give us some, final questions on what you just said about business training. But what else separates a professional from the, hobbyist? Okay, yeah.

For sure. How? You talk with yourself to yourself. Number one thing that you have to learn if you want to be successful, in the world and have a wonderful, beautiful life and career is talk to yourself with kindness and compassion.

And love. You know, we all have a voice that tells us that we can't, that we're failing, that we need to do better, that we should do this. We all we I relate to that so much.

And it's a choice to cultivate another voice. A voice that says, I love you regardless of who you are, what you are. I love you regardless of what you are, what you're doing, and the failures that you know you're experiencing and show kindness kind of for yourself.

And that allows you and opens up that all of the avenues and opportunities that you will need to search out those things that you that you need, search out those resources, not be scared, not be scared of vulnerability to learn new things to, you know, go out of your comfort zone.

It all starts with that small voice inside of ourselves that just says, I can. I can do this, I support you. And that's a debatable skill. It's not something that that comes natural for very many people.

I mean, for some of us, it's a little easier to cultivate than others, but it's something that you can do. There's a voice inside of you. There's all kinds of support, to learn how to do that from your family, friends, from past years, from, you know, probably from Reid, definitely myself.

You know, this is what I work with my mentor with almost exclusively. And I would I owe any success in my life, my personal life and my business life to not one thing.

Fantastic. Thank. You know, it's been a pleasure getting to know you better. And, to have you present to our group of health coaches and people who are interested in becoming health coaches.

You gave us a great perspective on, whether you want to go all the way up to the natural path because you are one, I think it would refer to both both sides of the equation there, and the medical profession too.

And look, we all really do need to work together, so I hope everyone will go out. Now, we're going to put your information in the show notes while you're out there looking at that, folks, go ahead and buy the summit recordings, because once they're off the air this week, you won't see them again.

And there's also some really special bonuses. Look over the bonuses. The price of this entire summit, I think, is $97. And there's, like, $2,500 worth of bonuses in the material, so you can't go wrong.

This has been an amazingly valuable interview. Know and I appreciate it. And we'll see you on flipside. Thank you. Yeah.

Health Coach Certification Vs. Doctorate

Reed Davis, HHP, CNT

Node Smith

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