Discover How Mold Toxins Influence A Child’s Brain

Introduction and guest background 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Mycotoxins, Mold, and Chronic Illness Summit. I'm your host Dr. Ann Shippy, and today we get to talk to Pejman Katiraei and that's the hardest part of the interview, is saying his name. Because the rest of this is going to be amazing. He is a board certified pediatrician. He's done two fellowships in integrative medicine. And he is so passionate about helping children that are having very severe behavioral challenges to get better, to fully heal. And he's worked with hundreds of kids that have healed.

And he is very excited to share some of the things that will help to bring hope to really difficult situations. So thank you so much for joining us. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you for. Holding this space to allow people out there. To hear information. To have. Hope and to know that healing is. Possible. Yeah, that's really what it's all about. And, you know, I have this saying, like you, you can only be doing as well as your least well child. Like you just it's it's really hard to to be in the world where your children are suffering.

So I think that's something that really resonates with all of us is to to help help the children. So I'd love if you share a little bit more about your journey and how you came to this place where you have this passion for helping children and that you got to know so much about mold toxicity. Yeah, absolutely. So I think the best place to start. Is with my own childhood. I, you know. As a eight year. Old, ten year old. Had pretty. Significant anxiety. Like. Sometimes not wanting to leave my own room, kind of.

Anxiety. My adolescence and teenage years had some, you know, pretty impressive levels of depression, like not wanting to be here kind of experiences. And part of. Why I initially got into holistic medicine when I came out of residency was just simply to better understand what was going on. Because in conventional medicine, you know, after I finished my residency, there were so many gaps, you know, and. Early. On I. Could see like, well. It just doesn't make sense. Like, we just say, well, things just happen.

You know, anxiety happens, autoimmunity happens, this happens, does happens. And I wanted to find some other answers and I wanted to find some answers to help myself. And the journey that I've had since. Then has really been one to understand myself. Into. To understand the kids that I serve. Because it turns out that my physiology. Is very similar to a lot of the kids that I take care. Of. I'm a highly sensitive person, and it turns out a. Lot of kids. That I take care of who end up with pans and pandas and weird, you know, neurological behavioral issues have similar physiologies.

And it's just, I think, part. Of the fragility of. A certain physiological makeup that makes us vulnerable to certain things like mold, toxins. Hey, we're the canaries in the coal mine, you know, and and we're it's really is so helpful that we get to learn on our own physiology what really, you know, to have a better understanding of what what people are experiencing, but also to try to figure out the the nooks and crannies and the complications that got them there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it just I think for the.

Experience I. Had. Every time I see a child struggle. It's just. There's a part of my. Heart that gets torn a little bit because. I can sense their pain. I can experience what it is that they're experiencing. I, I can sense their overwhelm. And it has. Made this journey that much more personal for. Me to really get. Into the. Root causes of. Why things happen. And ultimately how. I got into mold. Was, you know, I. Learned a bunch of things and had tried a bunch of things. You know, at one point I was injecting B12 injections into myself, taking gobs of folate, doing gut things.

Like just about. Everything you can imagine. I've tried on myself and through my patients and. Some things worked. But I also had. Some children who just were not getting better. And I remember there was one.

Personal journey into holistic medicine 4:49

Dear boy. Brilliant child Loveliest kid. Loveliest family, and he. Was just. Falling apart. Extreme anxiety, extreme aggression, the typical Pans presentation. And I was out of tricks. I had no idea what to do. And the mom was. Like, Hey, what about mold? And, you know, I. Just kind of. Shrug my shoulder. Yeah, sure. Like, I have no idea what the heck is going on. Like, I, I've, I've added nothing to this conversation. Why not? Right? And that's how I came to know. Dr. Neil Nathan, who has become a dear mentor and friend, and Neil helped open up my eyes to mold.

And that was close to four years ago. And you know, early on when when I came to understand mold, my first thought was, well, I don't want to deal with this. Like I've already done enough training. I don't want to become the mold person. Let me find someone, someone else. So I started. Looking and I started looking to see how many. Really good pediatricians. Were out there that were dealing with. This. And I started finding like, God, there aren't too many of us. Like, really, I. Could find a handful in the country.

So imagine how many children are getting missed because of that. It's it's it's such an epidemic. And to have so few of you out there, it's really it's really great that you're doing this talk today to share because I think there are so many pediatricians, too, that want to help their children that they're caring for. And just the parents asking the question, could it be mold and having an open minded physician like you rather than somebody who's closed minded say, hey, yeah, let's think about that, let's go investigate it further is huge.

Well, thank you. Thank you. And I mean, I've got I've got to say. I've been guilty of being that close minded provider. And, you know, they were I look back, I'm. Like, oh my God, how many cases of mold did I miss? Right? So I. Think through these conversations and through the beautiful. Work that you're doing, you know, if we. Can bring awareness and change things and I know. That's why you do all of this work, like it makes the world a better place. It really does. It really does. Okay. So you open your eyes.

You're like, okay, I've been missing this. And what happened next? I becoming terrified. Yeah, it's a lot to learn very quickly. Mm. It, it was a lot to learn. But the more. I dug into. It, the more. Concerned I became. Because when I started looking. At what. Mold, the. Mold, toxins do to the. Human. Physiology. And then as a pediatrician. I started asking, well, how does this play. Into things. To the fetus? Because mold toxins passthrough the placenta. They concentrate in the breastmilk. And, you know, I started asking questions to myself of like.

What does this do to the baby's microbiome? What does it do to the. Baby's immune system that is priming itself in the. First year or two of life? What happens to the nervous system where you have, you know. Essentially neuronal pruning and you're having the neurons start forming the appropriate connections that give. Us a healthy. Experience of Life? And as. I started. Looking at it and started looking at, well, my God, mycotoxins are inherently anti-microbial. Right? Penicillin comes from. Mold.

And mycotoxins cause neuronal damage. They disrupt neuroplasticity and, you know, they disrupt the mitochondria. And the more I dug into it. The more terrified. I became in terms of what. Is. This doing to children? And we are barely. Scratching the surface of our understanding of how this is playing. Out. And there are so few studies on humans. It's mostly on animals. And with what we see with the animals really is terrifying. So it's a whole area of of understanding that needs so much more research.

But but just even what exactly what you're saying where we do, we know enough of the mechanisms and we know that children are so much more susceptible then than adults are. It makes sense to be looking at this for almost every child, even preventively, don't you think? You know, and in prenatally like before you get pregnant, make sure your your body is is clean, you know, isn't going to be passing those micro toxins on to the baby. Hallelujah. Yes. And I think as we have, we get to a. Place of having these discussions.

You know, what really intrigues me is. How much disease can we prevent? Yeah, right. How much disability can we prevent? And, you know, considering. At least. 10%, if not upwards of 40% of people are living in mold and just have no clue. Like this isn't just. Like, oh, it's it's. One out of 100. People, right? These are big. Big numbers with big, big impact. I think we're. Just totally you know, our eyes are close to it. Right now. Right until you start seeing these patterns. So I'd love it for you to go back in case some of the people listening aren't familiar with even what how we define what autism is or pans pandas.

Because I think they're you know, for some people they never even they haven't heard those terms or really understand what they are. Yeah. So we have these terms that we give to these. Conditions and, you know, for instance, with autism. You look at this huge spectrum. Right, from the poor children who are non-verbal and literally can't communicate or function. To those who. Do make eye contact. They do communicate, but they have odd sensory experiences. They get anxious. They lack. Certain kind of social. Abilities.

And then in the world of patterns and pandas. So basically this is. Brain inflammation, right? And we're looking at. What. Intense inflammation in your nervous system does to drive aggression, anxiety, irritable, witty.

Why mold matters for children 11:30

And these are the. Poor kids who are completely neurotypical, right? They talk to you, they make eye contact, but their anxiety is off the chart and they can't leave the house. They have weird, weird. Sensory things where they can't handle clothing, that. They're just completely. Overwhelmed by. The world. Some of these poor children have. Very. Unusual patterns of aggression and just destructiveness. Where they they lose essentially the ability. To manage themselves at an emotional regulation level.

And part of what has really, you know. Come up for. Me. Is when you start looking at the mechanisms. Of what mold. And mold toxins. Do, a lot of very. Interesting answers start coming up. For instance, whether in the world of autism or in the. World of this. Neuro inflammatory condition patterns. A lot. Of the sensory. Issues that these children have actually. Happens to be related to histamine imbalances. And, you know, we typically. Think of histamine as just. Of. Right, I'm congested, you know, I've got.

Hives. Right. It it's just. The EMT dermatologic things that we think of as histamine. But when we take Benadryl, like what happens when you take Benadryl. An antihistamine. Right. You knock out and how Benadryl. Not right. Yeah. Yeah. And Histamine is is actually a very, very, very important regulator of. The sympathetic nervous system. And it actually goes beyond that in the in the sense that histamine. Also causes. Massive sensory distortions. It disrupts the vestibular system. So all of those quote unquote, ADHD kids, they.

Just cannot sit still for the life of them. They're constantly moving that movement. Their constant need to. Move is actually the. Child constantly activating the. Stimulus. System. To try to. Feel normal. And I've had kids. Where we did years. Of occupational therapy, you know, just about everything imaginable. And ultimately we found mold. We addressed the histamine issues through some enzymes. And literally. Two or three weeks later, this. Kid is now sitting still for the first time in their. Life.

I've had kids. You know, that had patterns in pandas. Or. Autism, extreme sensory. Issues. Kid couldn't go. To church. Could couldn't go to. The beach. They couldn't handle clothing. There's one poor little girl where literally she. She could not wear any clothing, not even underwear. And she was six, which obviously meant she couldn't go to school. Fast forward regulate. Histamine, balance histamine, address the. Trigger for. Histamine. Little girl is now. Wearing all clothing happily going to school, thriving.

Kid who autistic child. Going to church, going to the beach, enjoying the beach, Enjoying having their feet in the water, which they couldn't handle. Before. And as you start stepping back and letting go of the. Diagnoses in these labels. And just seeing what what is driving this child's experience in this. Version of reality that. They have. Right. Why are. They anxious? Why do they become angry? Why do they have. This intense fear response? Why do they have these sensory issues? And I think it really helps with, you know, siblings and and parents of these children to understand that it is physiological, like it it really is their nervous system being out of balance, their immune system being out of balance, etc., their microbiome being out of balance.

All these things to to know that it's you know, they're they're really struggling and it's it's they're not misbehaving because they want to they're not having trouble putting on clothes because they want to it. They really are about to crawl out of their skin. And it and they're doing the best that they can, but that they're at solutions. So I love that that you're already talking about some of the solutions. So you mentioned this little girl. You gave her some enzymes. Mm hmm. You know what? What type of enzymes did you?

So these are. Damien oxidase enzymes. They're actually naturally occurring enzymes in our gut. You just bump up the levels. To break down the histamine. And that that's really helpful. But I want to go back to actually what you brought up, because it. Breaks my heart and I see this all the time. Where not only does the child get. Blamed. For the behaviors, but a. Lot of times the family gets shamed. Or the child, you know, it's like, why aren't you parenting this child? Why aren't you disciplining them? Why?

Why is your child, you know, such a mischievous child And you know, it it breaks my heart because the thing that that happens. And. I've seen this I've had eight year olds look at me. Straight in the eye and they're like, do you think I'm just. A bad kid? You know, if if you could just imagine, heartbreaking. What what would an eight year old have to go through on a daily basis to just start. Questioning me if if. They're at their core, if they're bad egg? And as a society, I think because of this lack.

Of awareness and just. Exactly what you brought up, we have so little. Understanding and ultimately so little compassion. For what these poor kids. And their families are going through. And. You know, part of why I'm. Driven to do this work in to, you know, have these wonderful conversations and bring more awareness is. You know, these aren't just a few kids. We're talking probably upwards of four or. 500,000 kids in this country, if not in the millions. I would say easily, because there's such a spectrum.

A lot of times we don't pick it up until it's so severe that they can't go to school or, you know, the family is melting down. Right. The there's there's so many that so many kids that they're you know, they're figuring out how to get by with it. But they really need help, too. Yeah. You know, and I think that that the part that you. Touched on, I think, is also really important. A lot of these kids. Beyond the emotional regulation. So they're the kids who just lack the ability. To manage their emotions, which is.

As you said, purely physiological.

Understanding autism, PANS, and histamine 18:18

It's a physiological. Physical thing that's happening that's causing their nervous system. To lose certain key abilities. But what I also see is so many kids are. Struggling to learn because they're executive functioning, which means, you know, their ability to sit down and do. Work. Their working memory, which we have to use to learn math concepts, science concepts. Their ability to focus. And just to hide. Distractibility. These kids have weird. Alterations and short term memory where they just can't retain any information.

Oftentimes. And then. You add to that the weird. Sensory things that they. Have. So that child that's. Sitting in the classroom that has intense brain fog can't really remember anything, can process things, and simultaneously their brain is picking up on the clock and the the friend, you know, tapping the pencil on the table and countless other things. And when these children experience this, you know, the other thing that. I see is, is these. Kids coming. To a place where they're. Like, I'm just too dumb.

And I've had multiple kids. You know, I'm a my stupid these are the words. That come out of these little kids mouths. Like, I'm just too stupid, I'm too dumb. I'm no good at learning. And like you said, they just they give up. They give up because if you struggle every day, right? If you struggle every day to learn, if you struggle every day. To manage. Yourself, why would. You want to continue If you think you're. Just a failure and you see your. Friends, you know, they're learning math. These leads are thriving.

It becomes easy for them. And then you look. At yourself like clearly. Not coming easily. For me. And as as a society right now, what do we do? We say, oh, well, some kids just have learning. Disabilities and, you know, some kids are just less smart than. Others. It's so not true. Like all the things that you're saying right now, you're reminding me of my son, who's now 21. But when he was in third grade, we had gotten called in by the teacher. And basically every time she tried to teach something new, he would be disrupting class.

He'd be so uncomfortable that he'd be rolling around on the floor, couldn't sit in his chair, you know, lots of outbursts. At that point, he would only wear crocs to school or couldn't put on socks. You know, just all the sensory things, you know, eating dinner was hard because his father chewing would be too loud. And unfortunately, that was when I figured out we had more and in our house and got moved, got it out of the mold and within two months, he the teacher was so happy with them. You know, the he was he went back to his, you know, smart leadership ability.

But for four, four months there, he wasn't able to learn. It's tragic, tragic. And he would yeah. You know, I'm so grateful that I hidden lake declared itself and we've we figured out what was going on It was such a long time ago and you know, before there was as much information out on mold, I was just really learning about it. And but it is just such a great reminder of of especially for children. Right. When they're they have so much resilient they can heal so quickly. If you get all the right pieces of the puzzle to help them to heal.

So yeah, I yeah, I'd love to hear more about you know how your you when you suspect that a child is being exposed to mold, what are your first steps that you take to help confirm that? Yeah. This is where I've started. I've started questioning how we do what we do. And I'll give you a perfect example. I early. On, before I knew any better. I would just do a. Urine organic acid test. And basically this is a test to check the biochemistry, right. And to see if there's anything weird in the biochemistry.

And I would look at the test to my full test as normal that this can't be mold, you know, until Neal's like, Oh, yes, it is. Oh, yes, it is. It's sometimes it's totally stone cold, normal for the on the worst patients. The highest exposed. Right. Yeah. They're not eliminating anything. Nothing's coming out of the urine or it's just building up in the body. Yeah. And the same thing goes for the urine. Make the toxins. We do. Because. God, I mean, like, I thought, you know, I had arrived in Mecca and I.

Had found the test, and I've run, I don't know, hundreds of them. And I would get these tests that didn't look so bad. But the the. Home, like the parents. Were just. A mess. And they're like, yeah, we've had like 15 leaks in this house. And I'm like. Well, let's check it. Out. And, you know, long behold. Like a disaster catastrophe of of a mold exposure is. Taking place. But like you said, the mold toxins were not coming out in the urine. And that. Is when, you know, I started asking, well, if if.

These urine tests aren't fantastic at 300 something dollars per test. Right. And they're misleading. And the other organic acid tests are. Also. Misleading, like. What is the alternative? And that's where. One of my other mentors. Do you know Dr. Vojdani Oh, yes, of course. So Dr. Ari, as some refer to this brilliant. Man. Was one of the first people is like. Patient. Have you looked at antibodies in, you know, how the immune system interacts with mold. Toxins and molds? And. You know, at first I was like, no, I had no idea that even happened.

Right. And, oh, his. Son Elroy. Was one of the first people was like, Hey, I think there's something to this antibody thing. So I started. Checking antibodies. And there are many. In my community. That they will. Cringe if they're hearing this. But one of the things that I found. As a effective. Screening tool is not the only tool, but as an effective screening tool in conjunction with other tests. So usually I'll do an antibody test plus a urine test. I found that combination to actually be dramatically more accurate and sensitive than doing one and two antibody tests.

I'd say ten 20% of the time give a false read. And I've had some cases. Where horrendous. Amounts of mold antibody was normal, but. The urine showed. Yeah. So if we really do have to look at multiple data points and it's helpful to have that as a foundation so that then as we're monitoring our progress, we can actually know what you know, whether we're getting things addressed appropriately. So it sounds like we're on the same page there. We really like some data. Mm hmm. You like? I do. I you know, I do some of both as well.

I will. If the urine tests are positive, I find they're really helpful and and great to to track the progress, to make sure that we're really getting the detox pathways open and we're eliminating the source of the mold. But the antibody tests can be helpful, too, unless there's immunosuppressed enough that it doesn't show up. So yeah, it's great to have multiple pieces of data to know. And unfortunately, you know, some things are covered by insurance and some things aren't. So it depends on what the budget is. And I, you know, sometimes if the budget slower than we just have to go with less data, but if it's possible, it's really nice to have.

Yeah, Yeah. So a little hack. That I found and I forget who is. The really. Smart person that turned me onto. This. But it turns out that. Quest Diagnostics actually were run in ECG on a cloud of cerium Aspergillus and Penicillium. And I've run some kind of side by side like. Private labs plus these. And I know, Dr. Vojdani is more like, No, you need to check the mycotoxins. But you know. One of the things that I have really been driven towards. Is how do. I bring the cost of care down? All right.

I'm lucky enough to work with those families. They're like, spend as much money as you want, test for everything, in which case. We go for the, you know, the Rolls Royce. Version of the test. But there are. Also some families that are like. Look, we barely are making ends meet and we need to spend for the. Finances to be able to fix the problem, to really get the family well. So I they totally get that. Yeah. So one of the things that I've learned and. Still more. Needs to be done to better understand this.

Is actually through QUEST You can check for. Antibodies against actual molds. And it turns out that because cloud host Maryam and Aspergillus in particular tend to. Really. Irk the immune system, a lot of times when you check those antibody. Levels, if they're high, usually they're fairly. Good indicator that you know someone's living in mold. So yeah, that, that that dial has gotten turned up for mold period. Yeah, Well that's a great tip. Thanks for that. Because if those kinds of things change all the time with the availability at some of the labs, so good job.

Finding mold exposure and hidden sources 28:30

Thanks. Yeah. You know, we we have to look outside of the box, right? I mean that that's. What. I think. But you into this domain because you had to for your son. And all of. Us that I think are in this conversation is we have to think outside of the. Box. We have to. Find new ways to find answers. And I think the more we say, okay, well, that's how we've. Done things, how could we do. It better? How could we do it for less money? How could we. Ultimately get this into the hands of more. People?

And that that's that's. How we make change. That's how we. Help people get healthier. In larger and larger numbers. So so you start out by getting some data on immune system toxin levels if you can. And then what's next? So then it's like if you look and you do. The testing and you're like. Oh gosh, that this sure looks. Like mold, the next question becomes, are you living in it now? And, you know, is it at home? Is it in the classroom? And I've had some cases where. The child. Was living in mold.

Three years prior. And their systems were still being affected. So it's really making sure that there is that. Control of the environment. And for a lot of these kids with the, you know, neuro. Inflammatory pans condition, what I found is a lot of times their aggression, their intense. Anxiety, the intense irritability is actually being triggered. Through a mass cell mediated reaction. So almost an allergy like mediated reaction to the environment. And, you know, before. When I was still kind of figuring out how the heck to do things.

I would just, you know, bombard these. Kids with anti-inflammatories and. Keep it quiet. Often and Crumlin and Supplement and this and Quercetin and just like anything and everything I can do to dump into their system and then. I would just kind of scratch my head like, wait a second, why is this not working right? Why? Why is it not moving? And then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, it's because. I missed the mold in the environment. And I'm sure you've experienced this many a times, like. How easy it is to be misled there, Right.

Where the mold is pretty hidden and hard to find. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the schools are a whole nother the whole nother issue. And they and in Austin have patients all over the place, but especially in Austin, the schools are not, not great in Santa monica. Are you, are the schools maintained well or and or do you see a lot of mold problems there. Too bad they're not bad. We've definitely had some. Cases where it was very clear that there was exposure like there was. Ultimately ended up taking care of two families whose kids were in the same classroom.

And the mom. Was like, Yeah, you know, it was weird because we. Tested the homes, that the homes were fine. And then I asked. Mom, like, what about the school? And then the mom's like, You know what? Last year so-and-so. Was also in the class and she's a patient of yours. And now that I think about it. After the kids were. Having anxiety. Disorders. And. Other. Unusual things and it's like. It's not good. So yeah, it could be hidden. And that has. Actually been. You know. I think one of the highest and steepest learning curves for me.

Right. And essentially getting to a place where through the, you know, support of many friends who have taught me how to identify the environmental exposures, like getting to a place where, you know, if a family says like, oh, we don't have. Mold, we had our house. Tested. You know, my first response is like, let me see the report. And right. Just about. Every single time what I've seen and I'm sure. This is we you know, it's like, oh, well, there's no, you know, the ugly molds that they typically test for.

Aspergillus and Penicillium, like the outside is fine, Like they've tested the garden and the garden doesn't have this. But the kid's bedroom. Had 20 times the level of what the garden had. But somehow that inspector didn't think that. That was a big deal. Yeah. Right. In the testing is just sometimes the inspectors are not using the best testing. They're using the antiquated testing that isn't very accurate. So, yeah, I just I always have to say not that I'm an expert in in inspecting, but at this point, after 12 years of helping people, that's that's I've seen some crazy things in the report.

So it's a lot of times there if they're that they didn't find it the report's a bit misleading and if we get somebody in that really knows what they're doing, then they find it. Yeah, you know what have been the weirdest places that you have found? Mold Just out of curiosity? That's a good question. So sometimes it's just like a very slow, like a dishwasher leak in the hose and has gone underneath, like the flooring, like the wood floor had one patient that it had traveled all the way through the kitchen and all the way through the mold.

Just that little leak drizzling through and then all the way through the living room into the master bedroom. That's. That's nuts. That's nuts, right? What else? You know, sometimes there's actually problems with the with the what? Like the the floor of the shower plumbing going down and, you know, the enough moisture staying trapped in underneath the shower. That's a hard one to find sometimes. You know, a lot of times it doesn't smell the flashbangs on a chimney not being done properly. So just enough rain getting in and to travel down into the house, but not enough to, like, show through the paint.

The same thing with the windows. What about you? Where have you seen it? So the you know, the ones where I was just like, are you kidding me? You know, it was like I was also convinced, like there was nothing until. They found that we had one family where they moved into this. Beautiful. Multimillion dollar brand like year and a half a year old construction, right. Where the parents literally thought like I was the weird alien were. I said, you guys have molten like, how how is that possible? Like, this is, you know, the top.

Of the line construction. Fast forward. The one AC unit and they had like. Four or five. AC units, the one AC unit that was feeding the kid's bedroom area. Somehow the guy hooked it up and this was an AC unit that was like a year and a half old. The guy didn't hook up the drain properly. Oh, no. And that AC unit had just collected all of this condensation. And then when they opened up the pan, they took a picture like. It was just black mold everywhere. And it was so. Terrifying to think like, oh my.

God, like if if this is possible. Like, what else is possible, Right? And we've. Had cases where, like, the home was fine, There was another family. Home was great. The little girl. Constantly getting. Sick, like back to back colds. Anxiety, sensory issues, etc.. Homeless tested. Everything. Perfect. Another provider had looked like you guys are fine, no mold. And then I looked and. There was more than the subfloor and just this tiny little like speck of a like spike. In her room. And this. Is was.

Just air sampling. And I was like. Does the subfloor communicate with her room? And then the. Dad goes like, Yeah, there's actually a access door in her closet to the subfloor. And literally they just taped it off, like duct taped it, put a HEPA. Filter in there, and the. Little girl got better. Oh, my gosh, that's great detective work. I'm impressed. We've got to help these families. We've got to. I mean, that that. That's like why we're. Here and that's why you care so much. And you know what? Why I take. The time to.

Look at these reports is. Like, had I missed a. Detail, right. That silly little detail of, oh, there is a there is a access door in. Oh gosh, that access door leaks air and brings. Moldy air from the subfloor into her. Room like that little detail. So I had missed. It like I wouldn't have been able to help her. And I think, you know what this brings. Us to and it's what you touched on. With your. Experience with your son. It's like if. You don't understand. How to see the exposure. And. Ultimately controlled the exposure, like you can't move the needle.

You can't get. These kids better. Right? The toxicity keeps poisoning the mitochondria, the cell membranes, the DNA, the inflammation. You know, the body's just screaming. Inflammation stays up and it just keeps injuring the brain and the nervous system. It's really you have to get to the root of of the the source. So I'd love to hear more of the things that you think help the kids heal more quickly. It sounds like finding the source of getting the histamine levels managed. So do you do a low histamine diet along with the dose enzymes?

And then what else do you do? Yeah, so we try. To clean up the kids diet as much. As possible. Now what I've learned is a lot of these kids are in such a fragile place, you know, they're just barely. Hanging on by a string and. You know, before it was like, well, you need to get rid of gluten, you need to get rid of dairy, you need to get rid of this. You need to get rid of that. And I. Would just. Cause these families to just. Implode because, you know, a lot of these kids, because of their weird sensory issues.

And then when you also look at what histamine does in terms of controlling the appetite centers. So the appetite. Center of the brain is actually significantly impacted by histamine. So a lot of these like failure to thrive kids or you also. Look at some of the criteria with Pans and Pandas. One of the things that that's also criteria there is a sudden loss in appetite or sudden change in appetite. So a lot of these kids, what I. Have found is. Because. Histamine ultimately changes. To Appetite.

Center, these kids literally don't have much of an appetite. And the older. Kids, what they beautifully articulated to me is food just takes tastes. Disgusting. Like the experience of eating. Is not. Pleasurable for these kids because the way especially. You know, if we. Say, well, you should be eating, you know, chicken and fish and vegetables and, you know, me being on my high horse before is like, well, your kid needs to be eating, you know? And what I came to realize is, well. Gosh, no, I can't do that to them.

Because these kids are barely consuming. Calories. To survive. And by saying, well. Gluten has go, dairy. Has to go and this has to go right now, not that we don't get. Rid of it, but I was able to help. These families move. Through it. So what we do. Is the. Exposure. There's a really cool supplement. I don't know if you've ever used it in your patients miracle.

Treatment approach: diet, supplements, and detox support 40:30

So it's P with luteal and Neil was was the guy who. Turned me on to it. So it turns out the EPA actually helps reduce microglial activity. And because the microglia oftentimes are involved in part of the anxiety. And irritability and. Aggression, it changes the fear response through the amygdala. Piaget actually is a. Really fantastic product in compound that changes part of that inflammatory process, which then brings out the child's anxiety, just kind of calms down that intensity. Of of their nervous system.

And then the luteal and is this. Really cool bio. Flavonoid. That also. Acts as a kind of mass. Cell stabilizer. And has many other really amazing anti-inflammatory properties and. I find is in these kids. When. You controlled the. Exposure enough to the point where they're their systems are not getting hit all the time. And then I bring in these supplements and the other thing that I found is. Because. Of what you mentioned with the mitochondria getting hit, a lot of times fatty acid oxidation is.

Distorted through. These mycotoxins. So I've just found like you put them on some carnitine, you put them on Murica, you put them on these Dow enzymes and. The. Carnitine helps improve their vitality. So they're just not dragging themselves through life. Every day you. Bring down inflammation. Now the kid is starting to become more sensible. And by just bringing them to the more sensible, stable, happy ish, they're not happy, but they're a little more happy, right? They have started to be able to press the pause button a little about, Yeah.

And chew and start to choose how to be beautiful. I've had some families where the parents like, came in. Like borderline tearful. They were like, Sally, eat broccoli for. The first time. You took a bite of salmon. You Know? And it's just so fascinating to see how these kids naturally start gravitating. Into healthier things. And then over. The course. Of six. Months, we slowly. Kind of dripped. You know. Gluten and dairy out. Of the diet, get rid of the. You know, junky foods. And because they can now.

Eat the foods, we slowly. Transition them to the healthier. Foods. And through that, they start getting better. So that's kind of the first step trick that. I've learned to just. Slowly stabilize these kids. And then help them get into. A healthier. Place where we can do all the detox and. So forth. That's beautiful. And so one of the things with kids, of course, is that a lot of them aren't able to swallow pills. So you're you've found all the things in forms that they can take in chews or liquids kinds of things, or how do you deal with with actually getting the supplements into the kids.

So I've a taste test all of these. Things myself, and. Sometimes I'll just give it to my kids just for the sake of seeing what happens. And fortunately, these these products are totally tasteless. They're they're they're textures. It's a fine powder that. Dissolves. In, you know, pretty much any juice or any liquid. So carnitine is pretty much tasteless. The America is. Tasteless. The histamine block is tasteless. So a lot of times families will just open up the capsules, dump it in a little bit of, you know, whatever. The kid likes.

And they just drink it in their next. I mean, the relatively inexpensive as well. That's that's one of the. Things that's kind of neat. Really beautiful. And then when the child starts noticing vinegar, they're getting better than they're all in it at first. It's like can be challenging to get them to to take it, even if they don't have much taste. Right? But once they're like, Oh, this is helping me, then they're like, What else can I do? Yeah. And when they start asking for the supplements themselves.

That that's the. Most amazing part. You know, eight year old saying, Mom, can I have my vitamins now? I love it too. And the kids get to the point where they're like, they're the ones that are enforcing the gluten free, dairy free, because they know they they're going to feel better if they do that, too. So they're like, you know, at the grandparents saying, okay, let's look at the label. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, it's so amazing to see what these kids do. When they're finally able to function.

Yeah. And, you know. Speaking of hope. Like the part that just makes this so exciting is. The transform. Like the unimaginable transformations. I mean, I'm sure you've seen way more than I have because I've only been into it a few years. But the transformations are borderline mind boggling. There's a beautiful young lady. She's now 12, 13. We started three years ago. Mold exposure, high anxiety, weird sensory things, and she. Just couldn't learn for the. Life of her. So like the classical severe ADHD.

Kind of weird learning disabilities, poor executive functioning, etc., etc.. Fast forward three years. Mom cleaned up the environment like took to the nth. Degree, went hardcore with the diet. To a point where, like. It's egg free, gluten free, dairy free, like. It's intense. We did some supplements, got all of the mycotoxins out of her system. And what's. Wild is that same girl is now literally the top of her. Entire school. And we're not talking the average run of the mill school. She's in like a competitive academic school.

And she is literally the top student. In the. Entire school, like two or three grade levels. In math ahead in math, reading it. Like two grade levels above. Like, it's just insane. The change that has happened in her. Brain to see what the kids are capable of when they've gone from that, like, am I am I smart? Can I actually learn to that It's so rewarding and so exciting. Yeah. And, you know, they had they had so much heart and compassion, too, because they know what it's like to suffer. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's.

Amazing. It's amazing. And the way these kids like this, I think this is the part that drives me the most, the way these kids change. Their perspective on life, where now they like to learn and they say, I want to learn. I want to learn. More in the like I've had kids that are like, I just feel happy. Literally. They're like, I just feel happy. And I wasn't happy before. But now I. Feel happy in it. Like, not only is this such a beautiful gift to give. To families and kids for their experience now.

But how does that change their entire experience into the future? Right? I'm sure you've thought many a times for your son. Like, had you not found the mold. Where would he be? Right? Yeah. You in his self-esteem, like how he thinks about and stuff. He it feels so different rather than knowing he's smart and. And and so he's 21 and doing an internship this summer and. And he. He's confident and he's like doing things that really are contributing a lot to to the organization that he's working with.

So it's just I can't even imagine what would have happened to him if he hadn't if we hadn't had the luck of of starting to learn about mold and and finding out what was going on. Yeah. I thought that if you would share a little bit about what you do with kids and then helping to really I loved how you said get all the micro toxins out. Like what? What's your strategy for then help Because part of why the kids have gotten to the point that they are is because they definitely have some glitches in their detox pathways usually or have had a huge exposure.

So do you find with helping the kids get get the toxins out? So really great. Question. And I've started. Straddling kind of the the two different. Perspectives, right? There's the perspective of you. Colonization is what's driving the toxicity. And you know what's really interesting and the kind of microbiome. So the mold microbiome or the fungal microbiome version of the gut. Is the studies that are out there which are. Foreign for you and between all and healthy. Adults to basically say, well.

Colonization happen. You know. It happens, right? It happens. It happens. So the thing that I ultimately. Found was when I combined antifungal regimens, especially anti mold regimens, along with the binders, that's when I saw the best outcomes. Now, I don't do this right off the bat because most of the kids are so toxic and fragile. That they would just fall. Apart in a second. If I did. That. So it's a slow build up over several months. Yeah, but, you know, initially I was taught, well, you just.

Bind the mycotoxins and that fixes everything. And I found like that kind of work kind of didn't. But the beyond the. Anti mold thing and I can touch on you know. What. I found to be. Helpful is we know that there's a total toxic load right. It's not just a mycotoxins and. That. Entire conversation that we're, you know, having. Is the. Reason probably. Why we're seeing mold. Toxicity become such a big problem. Is everyone now is carrying, you know, a fair share of other toxins, which makes us inherently more vulnerable.

And then you've got new. Building science where buildings don't breathe. So mycotoxins concentrate. And that double whammy is. Probably what's. You know, driving what we're seeing. Now. But, you know, as I started working and asking, well, court like, how did these. Other compounds influence the body? And at the top of the list for me is. Is quite the seeds. And you, you look. At like the incredible work of Dr. Seneff and. Others, you know, it's weird. Clayface seeds are so weirdly. Similar in what they do to Mycotoxins.

That they're almost like the two ugly cousins, right? They both disrupt the mitochondria, they both disrupt the gut, they both disrupt the microbiome, they both disrupt neuroplasticity. Like the laundry list just goes on and on and on. And that's where I started, like. Looking at this. Of, gosh. I shouldn't just be looking at detoxing mycotoxins. Because. That's kind of silly. We know that. Everyone. Has, you. Know, a load. And even if you're. Gluten free. Or even if you're organic, like. You still get exposed to glyphosate, right?

Yeah, that's like that is ongoing. All the time, right? Like people have been eating organic exclusively for years and they're still getting the glyphosate exposure and trying to figure out where it's coming from. It is such a big problem. Yeah, yeah. So that's where I've started looking. At using, you know, combinations of like human acid folic acid plus glycine and then, you know, bentonite clay. And then along with that. I've become a big fan of Kostya. I mean, I don't know. If you're you're.

A big fan of that. I try to avoid it if I can, but I could see how with kids that might be an easier answer. I just you know, it causes so many get disruptions for most people, but that if I can find a way to get people better without using it, I'd prefer it just because I see people reacting to it too often. But I'd love to hear your experience because if you're seeing it's working, I'm I'm happy too. And maybe it's the combination of things that you're doing with the call this Jeremy Yeah. So I never go for Kostya.

I mean. First, because that's a. Quick way to make someone really sick and then. They overheat. Give up. Okay, So. Yeah, yeah. I stepped on a few. Landmines as. As I lost limbs. I'm like, Oh, that. That was just a really bad idea. But what I. Found. Is when the exposure is controlled, right? So the immune system is calmed down, the nervous system is calmed down. You start a trickle. Of, you know, whatever other minor. Clay pleural or whatever you like. At a certain point when the child's resiliency is there.

What I. Found. Is Kostya. I mean. Is, is. I don't want to say magical. But it's it's it really helps move the needle. And part of what we were. Theorizing is it's not just the okra toxins that the the styrene mean binds. We don't know if this. Iron essentially. Is also. Getting, you know, bacterial and or toxins. Or other types of. Toxins that we don't totally understand because everyone talks about it as just, you know, this more toxin binder. And it's it's good for a handful of things. But I am pretty. Convinced.

That it's. Doing something more than just the muscle toxins. And, you know, as I said, like I like to. Experiment on myself. So I've, you know. Not that I have any kind of.

Essential oils, biofilms, and long-term healing 55:00

Big mold exposure where I was like, you know what? Let me try it on myself. Let let's one see how it tastes and to see what it does. So I took like five grams of it twice a day for for a little while. And what I found is the mental. Clarity that I was. Having in just. That there was this weird. Sense of well-being. And, you know, my gut is pretty decent. My diet is an awful. But what started really. Coming up for me and this is something that like Neil has talked about, I've seen some paper papers here and they're discussing this.

There's probably. More to this compound in whether they're bacterial and or toxins that are in the gut or. Other. Things. That the. Other toxins are not binding, that the colostomy may start getting rid of that. Which that's making me think that we'll have to do a little research on this, you know. Cauley Stein, I mean, is an old cholesterol medication, right? So in the old days when I was doing internal medicine, it was a possible cholesterol drug. So I wonder if it's a little bit of a lipid exchange, Like I wonder if it's pulling out like some of the damaged lipid membranes, the way you've described your brain filling better and more clarity.

I'm like, Oh, maybe it was like a little. Yeah, refreshing the the cell membrane, brain cell membranes, lipid membranes. Let's see if we can find some data to support my theory. It could. It could. And, you know, that's what makes this fun, right? It's it's stressful because there's. So much we don't. Know. But it's also. Amazing because there's so much we can. Learn. And, you know, I'm really having so much fun doing this summit because I am getting to nerd out with people like you have a whole hour or more of your time and just, you know, really mind meld.

And because we all have our experiences with our patients and the successes and the things, the patients that we have to learn new things to help them to get better and dig deep. And so the more we can share and help each other and help the audience to ask the questions, and it's it's such a gift to get to do this with you. Likewise. Likewise. It's it's a pleasure. And, you know, that's that's how we learn. That's how we grow, right? If we. Share information, like. I'd say, half of what I've. Learned has actually been through my patients.

Whether I've. Suggested something and they're the ones that come back. To like this sucked. Or, Oh my God, this changed my kid's. Life, you know, Or. They come they come with their own things like, Hey. What you think of this? You know, I'm like, well, Charlotte's death said out, you know, and then a month later, Oh, my God. She's so much better. I'm like, Well, I guess I should pay attention to that. Beautiful. It is really the the practice of medicine, right? Like, because each patient is so individual and unique but we get these, these principles that we can apply and and get pretty far.

Yeah. Yeah. And collectively if we put our heads together, I. Can imagine like how much we can accomplish. Yes. Yes, for sure. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the healing process that you help the children with? Sure. I would say the last piece of what I. Found to be most helpful on top of just doing some things to. Support the detox pathways is really just I've become a. Huge fan of essential oils. So what we suspect. And I'm sure you know. This, that you know a lot of these molds.

That colonize ultimately get into biofilms and that they kind of just go in these little. Huddles. And dodge. A. Lot of antimicrobials that are directed at them. And when you look at the properties of. You know, various essential oils like thyme. These essential oils have. Actually not just been shown. To be helpful as. Antifungals anti. Mold. Agents. But they also have. Inherent biofilm disrupting. Properties. So one of the things that. Like I've. Become really a big fan of and where I've seen you know, some of the best cases of outcomes is when I have the binders, they're doing their job, we clean the environment, address the diet, but start using essential oils, and sometimes I'll use them in combination with different fats.

But as these oils slowly get. Trickled into the body over many months, it's not like you just nuke the gut, you know, one day and you're done. But when used over several months, what's really. Amazing is. You see a. Change in the microbiome, whether you're using organic. Acids or other ways to assess it just through, you know, kids who are. Chronically constipated or with chronic. Diarrhea. All of a sudden, like stools are normal. And also if you track. The mycotoxins, like. The best cases of really.

Clearing the Michael toxins is when the essential oils have been used these to my. Kids with. The binders. And while I know like you know, fluke. Itraconazole and some of these more you know heavy. Duty. Pharmaceuticals can be used for months without any known. Issues. I've just. Found like I don't need to go something. That hardcore where you just. Use some essential oils and you just give it time in six months later. You get to where you need to be. Without having to call in the bulldozer. So which essential oils are you finding are most effective?

But times is my favorite one. There's a product called White formula through researched nutritionals. It's time and I'm blanking on the other combination. There's two essential oils in it. It's a little heavy duty. It's in a capsule, so I can give it to the. Little, little kids. But like that is. My all time favorite and I'm starting to experiment with other combinations that have time and, you know, some have oregano. Etc.. But the little, little kids are use. You know, combinations of things like bio side and beyond balance has some really cool antifungal.

Herbs. And I'll just keep rotating. Them and just. You know, keep slowly, slowly edging. Away at the problem. And, you know, it's it's like when you look. At the water versus rock theory, you know, water. Doesn't break down rock. Immediately. You could give. It enough time. It creates a canyon. I look it like that. You just you drip it in, you just give it time. And next thing you know, the canyon is opened up your thumb. Well, I I'm so grateful that you if you you had the patient that asked you why could this be mold?

Because I just think you're doing such an amazing job with helping these family and kids and and really plowing new territory here. I am going to hope that you're going to you're going to write the pediatric mold book. And we'll see. We'll see. Because it really is different with kids like you have to like what you're learning in these last four years is pure gold and you have a heart of gold to go with that brilliant mind. And we're really lucky to have you in this field and

Wholistic Minds and closing thoughts 1:03:00

and be helping so many families and to be sharing your wisdom. Thank you. Thank you. We're all in this boat. Together to help people. And, you know, thank you for the. Work that you do. And and just. The the. Love and care and compassion and wisdom that you bring into. Our world. Thank you. I see you, too. That's really what it's all about, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do people find you? Like, I know that they're that they're going to be a lot of people watching this that are going to want to know your website, your Instagram.

The best way to learn more about what you're doing and to keep up with you. So. We're on Instagram, so it's. Wholistic Kids with the Ws, the W-H-O-L-I-S-T-I-C kids. That's our Instagram. The main website. That we're focusing. On right now is called Wholistic Minds (wholisticminds.com) also. With a W. And Wholistic Minds (wholisticminds.com) Is a portal that we've. Been building for the. Last four years. And really the premise of. This portal is there are too many people who are sick. There are too many people struggling to find answers and there are a lot.

Of great providers. That want to help, but they don't have the time or energy to spend. Five years. Digging into something. To really gain that mastery and Wholistic Minds. Is essentially a way to. Use technology and artificial intelligence. To. Increase the efficiency of. Providers who are really good. So they can serve more people in. Hopefully a. Lower cost standpoint because if you can serve two people in one hour versus one person per hour. That hopefully reduces cost. And increases. Availability.

And it. Also fills. In the knowledge gaps like I think back. To six years. Ago. And if I had a tool that could help me see the things that I didn't know how to. See or. At times. You know, helping us see through our bias. Because I've had times where. I got. Locked into. This is absolutely mold and it's like, you know, it wasn't mold, you know, it was. Something else in. Even in its. Rudimentary form. Like. At least one or two times the system started flagging other things. That had totally. Slipped my mind.

You know. One family that was living in a. Commercial agricultural area where seats were being sprayed. By the gallons. And they were literally across. The street from this farm. With wafts of. Glyphosate. So we're not talking like, oh, there's a little pesticide residue on your cucumber. It's like. Wafts of glyphosate, it's just. Washing into this family's home. And I would have been. Completely oblivious to it because. I was so focused on the mold conversation. And part of our our wish. And intention. Is.

By using this system, we can really. Help a lot more great. People come into this conversation and ultimately. Holistic Medical domains of. Health care. To then. Allow a lot more great providers to provide better. Care more efficiently, to ultimately. Serve the. Millions. Who need this. Kind of care. So I'm looking forward to learning more about this. It sounds like a really great project. Thank you. Well, really with the health of many people forward. So thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you for joining us today, and I look forward to many more conversations with you in the future.

It's so great to get to hang out with you. Likewise. Likewise. I really love the. You know, our time together and just getting to chat and help inform people. Thank you so much.