Dr. Chris Hills on Orthopedics, Service, and Building Resilience Beyond Medicine

Introduction and Guest Background 0:00

Welcome to the Doctors Making a Difference podcast where we help physicians to be empowered with the tools they need to be successful in medicine, in finance, and in life. Join us as we highlight doctors and other professionals around the world who are making a difference. to welcome Dr. Chris Hills with us today. Dr. Hills, who's giving me permission to call him Chris, lives and works in one of the most beautiful parts of the world. He has the privilege of being an orthopedic surgeon in Jackson, Wyoming.

Almost everybody's had a chance to visit Teton National Park and Yellowstone and that beautiful part of the world. Chris just lives across the hills from me. I live about two hours away from from that area. And if I climb up on the mountain behind my house, I can actually see the Tetons just over the hill. Chris has lived and worked over there for a number of years. It's great to meet Chris. I think you're going to find this quite interesting to hear him and his story. But would you mind, Chris, introducing yourself to our audience?

Tell us a little bit more about yourself. Thanks, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here this morning with you and thank you for the opportunity. As you said, Chris Hills, we've been in Jackson Hole, Wyoming for 11 years. And prior to that, originally from Arizona, had the opportunity to go to medical school in Arizona. And then we actually took a little bit different route through medicine and joined the military and trained through the army and orthopedics. The army took us to Washington state, Georgia, spent some time in North Carolina, a little expense paid trip to the Middle East during our time in the military.

a little deployment to Afghanistan for a time. And then ultimately when we got out of the military, we were able to settle in Jackson, Wyoming. And so we've been here 11 years now and it's just been a pleasure. It's very fortunate to be able to live in this part of the country and enjoy the outdoors here, not just the great scenery, but the great people. And we really. Just created a great home here and very thankful for the opportunity to be here. It's been great. Well, it's a neat part of the world to practice in.

I like how you phrased the all-expense paid trip to the Middle East. That's one way to put it for sure. When you sign up there, they don't talk about those paid vacations to the desert. No. Maybe just sidebar here for a minute. Now that you've done that, your years beyond that, and you can look in hindsight, what do you think about the military track? Looking back for getting through medical school and doing it that route, a lot of people contemplate that as an option, only certain people do it.

I'm curious, what do you think about that experience you had? You know, we have zero regrets in doing that route. In medical school, we ended up with three young children, while in medical school, and then they had a fourth shortly thereafter. And just from a comfort standpoint, in terms of finances that worked out well for us, you get a little stipend while you're in medical school. And so that helps. And then just in terms of, I knew I wanted to do orthopedics and the military is really the forefront in terms of training in orthopedics, just from most of the things we've learned in general surgery, battlefield medicine is really just come from that, it's come from the battlefield.

And so orthopedics is a great training in the military, just from the environment that you're engulfed in and just from taking care of the young active warriors that like to break themselves to their family and their dependents and the retirees. And so it's a great training facility, particularly in orthopedics, but I would recommend it for anyone that is considering that route. You have to wear a couple hats when you're in the military. You're not just a doctor, you maybe ended up being an administrator or what have you that really gives you skills that you may not know you needed or you're lacking, but ultimately will use in real world experience outside of the military.

So it's a great route to be trained in many different aspects, not just in medicine. Yeah. So it worked out both from financially kind of gave you a stipend to live during that time. Well, you did medical school in Arizona. So was it just the residency that you did in the military? That's correct. And with the military, you have the option of doing a civilian program where they just pay for your schooling, or you can do the military school, it's called the USIS in Maryland.

Military Training and Orthopedic Career Path 4:20

And that's where you're active duty during military school. You could go two different routes. We chose the civilian medical school with a scholarship paid, what's called the health profession scholarship program. And so that's the route we took. And then, so you become active duty while you're in residency and then move forward from there. And then how many years after a completion of residency? Because generally there's a service obligation during that time. Did you spend some time with the military after finishing residency or were you completing?

So the program that I did was a four-year scholarship that paid for the four years of medical school. So I owe the military four years after residency. So for orthopedics, it's a five year residency. So I was five years active duty during residency and then a four year paid back. So I did a total of nine years active duty service. And during that time you worked with the military and then after that, then once you'd completed all the military service, then you were able to relocate to Jackson at the end of that.

Is that right? That's correct. And I actually did a little bit different. And many times you go through residency and straight into a fellowship. worked as a general orthopedic surgeon in the army, got out of the military, and then I did a fellowship at Duke University in spine. And so I did my fellowship after I had already been a staff, if you will, or attending for four years. So I was a glutton for punishment and had to go back and be a trainee again after being out for four years as a staff attending in the military.

But most people listening to this are physicians and it's interesting to talk to people. A lot of people you think it's just going to be this straightforward doing this and this sort of route. But when you talk to people, most people have this route that fits and starts the circuitous. I bet that was a change to go back to being a trainee and trainee salary and all that kind of stuff. How was that? Yeah, it was an adjustment, but not just for myself, but also for the staff at Duke University. They were used to someone that really hadn't had an experience of standing on their own and making the decisions on their own.

And so it wasn't long before I was running my own OR and they gave me a lot of laxity and a long leash. And so it was really nice. And it turned out to be a, just a great learning experience on both sides. And since that time, Duke has actually been recruiting and wanting to have more providers come in through the military in that fashion, just because I think it was very beneficial on both ends, just in terms of productivity. And I think too, as you've gone through training, you really don't know what you don't know until you've been out there and really worked and gotten in the trenches.

And then you realize that a lot of things you did in training, you probably would have gained more knowledge had you known how to maybe, what to ask, what mistakes you're going to make or what mistakes to look for. and then how to really learn and grow from those experiences. And so I think the educational component of already having some experience and then going back into that training status was really expounded the knowledge gained in that period. Yeah. Well, sometimes you don't know how good of information you're getting.

I think about that on my own training. Sometimes I would, you work with someone that's a true expert on something. And yet if you're too early in the training, it just all sounds, oh, that sounds nice. But when you've been doing it for a while and someone with that kind of expertise shows you, you're just like mentally right there at that state, ready to learn it. And every single thing they teach you, you're like, yeah, okay, I'm ready for that level. And you can take someone's expertise. That's pretty cool.

So true. Yeah. So you've been in Jackson there for 11 years. Do you do exclusively spine or what's your practice look like? With my background in the military, I still do general orthopedic trauma. So I'm still on the general ortho call list I'm on this weekend. And so I'll see anything that comes through the door. I have partners now that specialize in knee and shoulders and hands. And I did all of that in the military, but now we really try to stay in our lane of specialties. subspecialty training.

And so when I'm on call, if I get a fracture that I know my partner can do better, then I will pass that along. But if not, I still take care of a lot of general orthopedics, but spine is my focus in elective practice. So you live in one of the most known and renowned recreation areas in the world. Do you have time to go play? That's one of the biggest things. Like I live in a beautiful area as well. I love it. And sometimes you get so busy that I'm like, I live in this great place, but I just pulled 14 days in a row with hardly even seeing, hardly even being home.

And then it's sometimes hard. So I've been trying to rebalance a little bit so I can enjoy it. Have you been able to strike a little bit of a balance so that you can enjoy it? I always say I wish I had a little bit more time to get out, and it probably depends on who you ask. If you ask me, probably not enough time. If you ask my wife, she says I probably get out too much. But no, that's one of the things in Jackson. There's definitely a nice work-life balance here. I could be much busier and we've had opportunities to go other places.

In fact, I had the opportunity to stay in the Duke system and in Raleigh, North Carolina. And really as we evaluated those things, we elected to be here because there is a nice work-life balance. And so we've, I feel I've really been able to take advantage of that opportunity here. And that's, I think why we're going to have just a great tenure here and long-term stay. And I think I shared with you before we hit record, I've been in this area for 14 years. And I think that's one of the big reasons I've stayed.

I have family in the area, which is a huge draw. But the second one is I live in a place where I have, you know, 500,000 acres of mountain land in my backyard. That's just unparalleled. We keep the snowmobiles on the front yard. If you ever spill the gas on the lawn, then I get in trouble the next summer. But I always had this goal to be able to just keep the pull and ride in the winter, be able to pull the snowmobile rope and just be up in the hills. And it's so cool. And you couldn't get that in most areas.

And same thing, you live in a place where any kind of winter sport, summer sport, hiking, backpacking, cycling, any of those kind of things are just right there at your back door. I think we probably make a trip up to the Jackson area every month, at least in the summer, because we enjoy backpacking and we enjoy some of the rock climbing, canyoneering, some of that kind of stuff, mountain biking. And there's just some really wonderful things that are developed up there in the place where you live.

Yeah, it's just that's so true. During the winter, I'm able to go do some backcountry skiing before we start work in the morning. So I go out for a couple of hours before work and You can shower and be at work on time. It's a great way to start the day. It's nice to get away at times, but it's always refreshing to come home. I just love coming back into the Jackson Valley here. Like I said, we're very fortunate to be able to be here. Like I say, a lot of the people that listen to this are physicians or right-met residents.

What would you tell someone who's on this path and saying, well, I kind of want to be an orthopedic surgeon, but I don't know that. I don't know if I want the lifestyle or it's too busy or I'm not sure if I can handle it. What would you say to someone you've been able to figure out a path that works for you? But what would you say to someone who's on that path? Well, that's a great question. And that, yeah, I think there's kind of been a shift in medicine over the last few years where it's just not all head to the, just hitting the grindstone and just pushing until you realize that, boy, you're, you've missed the great years of life where you can really be out and doing things.

And I think that's really been recognized as the work hours have come about through residency and things of that nature. And. I think that's, we're seeing that more and more in a hospital employed status and things of that nature where we're just trying to get out and have that balance a little bit more. And so I think that's important for people to realize that, yeah, you're going to have to put in some time and get through the training. And obviously you have to do what you can to make a living, but it's important to really find that balance just for resiliency and longevity.

You can go in and just really put your head down and push hard, but in terms of burnout, if you don't, take the time, the longevity is not going to be there. And I think if we really want to have a sustained career that really lasts decades, you have to find that balance early.

Work-Life Balance in Jackson Hole 12:40

And if not, the burnout is just going to be quite significant and the longevity is not going to be there. And the other thing I've noticed is you can work harder, you'll earn more money, but ultimately maybe it doesn't matter. Like there's a certain place you need to meet your goals and save for the future and stuff. But if you're working just to save more and more, you're not really going to be happier. And then at the end of it, if you, When life hits you with things that really matter, you'd never look back and say, I wish I'd worked more or I wish I had spent more hours on call.

It doesn't matter. Like really, when it all shakes out, that is not the stuff that matters in life. It's relationships with your family and the people you love and the coworkers. I think that becomes everything. When it really boils down, that has to be it. I absolutely agree. That is so true. I want to talk a little bit about this foundation you started. This was a little bit vulnerable for you, Chris. I appreciate you being willing to share. Chris lost his son in 2022 in a great loss. It's just been a, it sounds like a real, quite a journey for you and your family.

And you've been able to start a foundation to help other kids who are going through things. And again, don't share beyond what you're comfortable sharing, but I would, I hope you'll be willing to share that story a little bit and maybe some lessons along the way for those of us who are listening. Oh yeah, you bet. I think maybe a little bit of background before I go into the foundation. I've learned in my career, as you mentioned, there's a lot of things that are probably stand out and have greater importance than just the careers itself.

I might have mentioned time in the military and deployment, probably the most challenging yet rewarding things professionally I'll ever do was deployment in Afghanistan and taking care of soldiers there, had the opportunity to work in Uganda with Duke University Outreach. And those things really highlighted and created memories and just really a value that I would have not had had if I just really just stayed in the typical track. But so I learned that those things outside of not exclusive to medicine, but part of the medicine track were just really rewarding and beneficial.

As you had mentioned, we had just a catastrophic loss in our family a few years ago. With the death of our 20 year old son by suicide, And those type of events are never expected or not always sudden. And obviously it was just a tragedy that really made us think about what is so important in life and how do we assist others that might be going through that. And ultimately we felt in honor of our son that trying to help others in that situation would be a great value, but we wanted to try to I don't know, maybe think out of the box a little bit and how to do.

We wanted to work with teenagers and try to approach it in a way that hadn't been done before. Particularly with, I think, young men, probably more so young women, but maybe not the case, but they're not going to high school counselors and asking for help. They're there, there are resources for them, but they're really just not being used. And so we're like, boy, how can we really reach out to someone that may not be asking for help or how do we connect with some of these young adults or youth that aren't getting engaged in otherwise.

And so one of our passions was just obviously in the outdoors, but in particularly riding dirt bikes. And so the idea came about to help build mental resiliency through dirt bike riding in the outdoors. And so that was the the start of Wide Open Foundation, the Brody Hills Foundation. And so with that, we were able to kick it off this year. February 1st, we had our first event, which was a, we had three professional motorcycle riders provide a 30 kid riding clinic in St. George, Utah on February 1st.

And yeah, here we are. Seven months later, we've had almost 50 youth participate in the foundation. It's really picking up steam and we really feel it has legs and it's going somewhere. any participant at the foundation. Obviously, we get to get them out on motorcycles and teach them the proper mechanics and safety techniques, but we provide them a mentor to work with. We have a curriculum that we utilize to help them in terms of to build mental resiliency with really three main topics, one of self-care, just seeking out strong social connections, and then working and finding an emotional outlet.

And then, so we really work on things of journaling. We talk about using a gratitude journal, goal settings, setting goals, service, just a number of different things to help build mental resiliency. And it's been, the feedback's been phenomenal. We have mentors now in Western Wyoming, Eastern Idaho. We're really getting ready to expand more into Utah. We look to expand into Arizona this year. and really to work with collaborating with a number of different organizations. One of which that I'm fortunate to just made a connection with recently called Veteran to Veterans and they do some formal training for veterans that where you are able to become a coach to help other veterans out and the hope is that you can just build these chains of links and just get professional training that then be able to help return and give back to other veterans and they've reached out to us and want to collaborate and use that training that is given to veterans to help give some professional training for our mentors.

And so it's really, it's taken a lot of work to get it off the ground, but we really feel that it has legs and potential. I think we're going to make a difference. I think so too. Are the people that are, that have so far participated, are they being referred through like a hospital or through a church organization or how are they, how are you finding the young men who are participating in this? So far it's really been word of mouth where we had a group of boys that started riding with us and before long they're bringing in friends and friends and it's just really grown from there.

There have been some personal invites where we've had some parents reach out and said, boy, I think that's something that my child would be beneficial for. For instance, when we had the writing clinics, we just put it out on our website or just some in the industry and we just get strangers we haven't met. For instance, in St. George, we had a writer from California, a couple from Utah and one from Colorado that just learned of it through the professionals that were teaching

Lessons on Burnout and Career Priorities 19:40

the course that they put it out and let them know that they were doing that instruction course. And so they took part and then all of a sudden they, as part of that, they learned about the foundation. And so it's all different methods. This year we plan to go locally to the schools in the Jackson and Teton County, Idaho and Wyoming schools and let them know the resources that's available. And so we're just slowly building it out. And as this, this ripple effect starts to build, I think it's just going to really take effect.

Ultimately, our goal is to really get the word out into the industry, the motorsports industry. Again, just coming at it from a different angle. And as we feel as that gets out, I think there's going to be a lot of buy-in from industry. And as we know, they're influenced through, for better or for worse, through their sponsorships of some of these extreme activities that Monster Energy and Red Bull and all of these others are involved with as we get buy-in from industry and it gets out into that type of realm, I think it's just going to blow up.

And we would like to scale it to be able to really go across the country to where we have vetted mentors that are taking a part in this. And so it just becomes this, this exponential growth that can, we really feel can take place and helping out youth and just a different angle that's been taken in the past. Oh, I like it. I like, like you said, thinking outside the box because not everybody's going to go sit down with a counselor and find that to be one-on-one. I found working with a lot of young men through church groups, the time when you get people the most willing to talk and share is when you're out doing something.

Like you have to get them. a little bit tired, a little bit away from the cell phone, you're going up in the mountains, you're going on a hike, you're going some kind of high adventure thing. And then you sit around and talk and the kind of the walls are broken down and they've built some camaraderie. And then people are willing to share a little bit that you're getting right at the heart of that with, you know, what young man doesn't like dirt bikes. It's a cool way to reach out. Yeah, there's some reservation with the safety involved, but dirt bikes may not be everybody's ticket, but we've had, just in this area, we've had whitewater raft companies that have come to us and say, hey, do you just let us know how we can take part?

And we'd be happy to get a group of kids going down the river. We've had the mountain guides, professional mountain guides here said, boy, they'd take part. And so I really feel this thing has potential to just really expand in a lot of different avenues. But ultimately it's getting the youth out there, get them out the outdoors, get them off of their screens and off of social media and have them make some, just some meaningful connections. And most importantly, some mentorship because many of them are lacking that one.

So I think that's really what's going to make a difference. I think so too. I really like the idea a lot. Do the people when they come for these sessions, is it generally a one-day thing or are they getting instruction prior to the event or do they have to have their own motorcycle? How does it work as far as that goes? At the beginning, we are really sourcing motorcycles wherever we could. Just say about a month ago, we had a new riders clinic and we had eight kids involved that had never ridden motorcycles and Our foundation, we had two, a part of the foundation for learning motorcycles.

And so we source them from friends and others. And ultimately, our goal is that we have a whole fleet of motorcycles of different varieties and gear for all different sizes and shapes. But we put them through just a very basics course, learn fundamentals. You're typically out in just an open field with no obstacles or hazards. And we make sure they have the fundamentals sound. And then we get them out on the trail and start riding. And then what we've done through the summer is we've had a couple of these training sessions.

Then we have throughout the summer, we had weekly rides just on a Tuesday night at six o'clock. We're meeting at this location and we may have five. We had at one evening, we had almost 20 people out riding. And so then we just open it up to those that want to come out and we just, if they don't have a bike, we source one. Ultimately, as it grows, we're fortunate here in Jackson, there's a lot of philanthropy and there's what's called Old Bills Foundation. And let's say it's right now during, they call it the giving season.

And so it's a philanthropic organization that gives back to local charities and companies in Jackson, businesses through Jackson co-sponsor.

Founding the Brody Hills Foundation 24:10

And so they match a lot of the funds. And so we're very fortunate here in this Jackson area to have a lot of philanthropy that really helps in this regard. And so we were able to get a nice kickstart this year. We got two motorcycles this next year. We hope to add another four to five motorcycles at the foundation and then just keep growing from there. And so it's been really neat to see in the short term where it's gone. And yeah, that's the plan this upcoming year is to have multiple formal writing clinics, but then just build on it to where we just have a community, if you will, of getting together and just building relationships and camaraderie.

and support by getting out and riding and just having a good time. It's not just all riding. We look to do service and things of that nature and try to improve the trail systems and just give back in other ways. And another activity we did this year, I took a rented a van and met, had many others drive down and we took a big group down to the motorcycle races in Salt Lake and just had an incredible event. And that was, we had in particular, a few boys that weren't ready to get on a bike, but they wanted to go watch the races.

And after that, they're Boy, they just had a great time. Their parents said that's the first time they've done something away from their home before. And it was just a great event and it really helped build some confidence in them. And they met some friends and did something new that they hadn't experienced before. And that's all it took to crack the shell a little bit. And they were two of the eight in our new writer's clinic just this last month. Little things like that, I think just a little bit of a time, but you're just building confidence and some self-esteem in them in these youth.

And I think a lot of times that's what's lacking. And as they start to catch a little bit of that and see that, boy, it's, It's okay to get out and do something new and hard and challenging. I think it really helps build that confidence that in today's society, a lot of these years are lacking. Perfect. How do you incorporate some of the mentorship into it? Because there's a lot of camaraderie being built and, like you say, barriers break down and people do stuff that's fun. But you also want to make sure that you're connected with a mentor and that we can talk.

It's OK to talk about some of the connection and the challenges that people face in that chapter of life. Like we talked before, we hit record. Everybody has to be a teenager at some point. It's a stormy, challenging part of life for lots of people. So I was wondering how that's baked into the foundation and the activities you do. Yeah, no, great question. So we currently have six board members on the foundation. And in that, and as we really looked at this, we debated how much of the professional side of mental health do we want to provide, or is it just being a mentor?

And we're still working on that. Like I said, we're going to start some professional training with the veterans to veterans group this year, but it's really just making sure we have the youth have someone that they can reach out to and say, boy, they know where to turn to if they have a struggle or a question they can call out to. And then if we need to refer to a professional, if they get something to the point that they need some mental health counseling or professional status, we'll get them connected in that regard.

But nonetheless, just making sure these youth have someone to reach out to if they have a time of need, We obviously invite them to say, hey, anytime you want to ride, we make sure we have two adults for any individual when we do something like that. But they always know any youth that enters into the foundation, they have someone to reach out to, whether they want to learn how to, we do mechanic skills nights where they're just learning how to work on a machine or where they want to go ride, or if they just want to talk to someone that is there for them.

And so that's the big thing that we push is that you're not alone. You already have someone that you can reach out to. And if you don't have a network at home to do that, the foundation is there for them to do. Interesting. I've never heard of anything quite like what you're doing. Like you said, it's thinking outside the box. I don't know any young man that doesn't enjoy motor sports. Are you having young women participate? Is this primarily focused on young men at this point? No, we have. We had our first event in February in St.

George. We had two females take part. We have, we're going to have our first female only clinic. We're in the planning stages of it. And it's going to be actually this likely this winter. And we're working out to where we can hopefully use a indoor riding arena horse or equine arena to be able to do the event. Just because that's one thing that we struggle with here in the winter. We may expand out to some snowmobile riding. We'll see. But, but nonetheless, we're going to have our first female only clinic coming up soon.

And so yeah, it's for all teenagers. And we want to be exclusive in it. We want to be all inclusive. And so it's been great, but yeah, we had two in our first clinic in February and they just had a ball and we looked to expand that. We are working right now on really obtaining a couple female mentors. I think that's going to be very important moving forward. And so we're just close to getting that finalized. And so we're really excited to see where that's going in that regard as well. Yeah, my daughter, I have one daughter, she loves snowmobiling.

I told you that's what we did a lot in the winter time. And I think she likes it more than most of my sons. She just loves snowmobiling. And so it's just an interesting way to connect because not everybody's going to have access to motor sports, but you're talking about taking it for not just people who happen to own those things in their home, but for people who say, look, I want to get involved. You're going to have access to some of those machines and teach safety. have that concept of two deep leaderships, you always have a couple of adults nearby, and then you build this network, and hopefully when the storms come, as they inevitably do, they'll have a network, a team of people to say, okay, if I don't connect with, if I don't have somebody else to reach out to, this group of people understand it.

Do you talk about the Brody Hills Foundation and about your son as part of the, when you reach out to the folks? How do you bake that in when they're first being introduced to it? That is. So for instance, in the riding clinics, we go through all the instruction on motorcycles and spend the day riding. And then at the end of each session, we have the component of the mental health resiliency training and that we give out a swag bag. A swag bag will have just a couple of things about the foundation, the B&E and whatnot.

And then we give a gratitude journal. We give the literature and instruction on the different resiliency tools that I mentioned and go over all those things and talk about them. And then we give them challenges and have them set goals. And so each component, when someone comes into the foundation, we give them the baseline of resiliency training. And then that's something we talk about each time. Cause boy, when you go out and ride, there's always break sessions and great opportunities when you're taking a break to just really talk about things.

And many times you're looking out over a Vista from the top of a mountain point or whatnot. And it's just an incredible experience to be able to connect with those youth and those settings when they're having just time of their life on a dirt bike. And so this last week, we just had two boys out that had just gone through the new riders clinic for their third ride out on a trail.

Mentorship, Inclusion, and How to Get Involved 31:20

And one of them said, boy. I haven't seen this view of Jack. He's lived in Jackson his whole life as though I've never seen a view like this from this vantage point. And then when we got back at the end of the trail, he goes, I'm not sure I want to get off the dirt bike. He just had a good time. This is a kid that he's struggling and school's just starting back up, but he's really struggled in school and being able to make connections with friends and whatnot. And here he was out there and he says, I just want to keep going with the other kid he was riding with.

It's at times little, but at other times it's just huge gains when you think of the effect that you can have on one person. So it's really exciting to see, but yeah, each encounter that we have with a youth that has some component of mental health resiliency training involved. It's neat. It's specific to your circumstance with your son and the foundation. There aren't very many orthopedic surgeons that would start a mental health-based foundation, and I think it's cool. You've drawn back not only on your personal experience with your family and the need to give back and reach out and honor your son, but also you're a doctor, you're an orthospine doctor, you do, that's what your day job is, but you also have this broad background in medicine.

And I think that it gives you the context to understand and put this forward. It's really a unique thing you're doing. So I applaud what you're doing. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I guess it's kind of a, Oxymoron as well, I'd be an orthopedic surgeon riding dirt bikes, but our old habits die hard. And, but nonetheless, it's something that has really made a difference in my life. And we hope to just share a little bit of that. And hopefully we can bring that enthusiasm to others and help them again, have some improvement in their overall quality of life, their resiliency, and that we can try to make things a little bit better.

Oh yeah, some of the best conversations I've had in my whole life are looking over some grand vista on top of a mountain, whether we hiked there or took snowmobiles or went there on four-wheelers or whatever it may be, like those outdoor spaces are so important for us to interact with, so I love what you're doing. How do people find out about the foundation, Chris? Where would you turn people if they say, hey, I need this in my life, or one of my kids needs this, or I want to get involved because this sounds amazing?

Where would you tell people to go and how can they contact you? Yeah, you bet. So, the website foundation is BrodyHillsFoundation.org. It's B-O-R-D-Y, BrodyHillsFoundation.org. And on social media, you just search wide open Brody Hills Foundation. We're on all social media out there. and their contacts through those entities. Yeah. So it's pretty easy to find. And yeah, we welcome anyone to get on and learn more about us. And we have individual contacts there. If they want to give us a call, they could reach out to me through the website there.

No, super helpful. Thank you for taking the time to share this. Any other final words or things you would share with our audience? I think this will be inspirational to people who listen to it. I'm inspired, Chris. It makes me want to go out and do motorsports right now. I gotta go out and check it out. So thank you. doing that. And then thank you for honoring the memory of your son. Obviously a wonderful young man, an impact that you don't, you don't want that to go away. And I am confident that what you're doing will perpetuate that for years and years to come.

So I just, I honor what you're doing. Anything else you would want to share with our audience? Well, I appreciate you having me on and for what you're doing and bringing some of this more to the forefront and getting it out there and see what we can all do to just keep trying to make a difference. So I really appreciate your time. Thanks Chris, keep it. Please note that while I am a physician and many of the guests on this program are also physicians or other professionals, the discussions on this podcast do not represent my employer or any professional organizations to which I belong.

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