Escaping the Wolf of Wall Street: How Dr. Nae Survived Trauma Bond | Ep. 46

Introduction to Trauma Bonds 0:00

When you have somebody that you think is supposed to love you say these cruel degrading things to you, cursing you out, saying horrible things, it's really shocking. It's kind of like, wait, what just happened? Meet Dr. Nay, a licensed psychotherapist and expert in trauma bonds and narcissistic abuse. She was formerly married to Jordan Belfort, the real wolf of Wall Street. With her extensive experience, she empowers individuals to break free from toxic relationships and foster healing. Let's dive into this transformative conversation.

all of these negative feelings swirling around inside of you. And this person thinks that the negative feeling are coming from out there. They don't realize that they have unresolved negative emotions inside them. So they start to blame the other people in their environment. Is it a good or bad idea for them to start seeking into a different relationship without healing? Bad idea. I figured you would go there. What is the next step? When you find out like, man, I'm in it. Well, first you have to have radical acceptance that you're in.

Are there certain things that the partners are actively saying to that individual causing this type of trauma? The root of a trauma bond is one of the partner's wants power and control over the other partner. Are there things that couples can do to prevent themselves from going into a trauma bond relationship? You know. Welcome to another episode of a Healthy Point of View podcast. I'm your host, Sam Tahara. Today, we're going to be talking about relationships, sometimes abusive relationships. We're gonna be talk about PTSD.

Things that a lot of people are scared to talk about. We're going to about these trauma bonds. And today we have an expert, an experts who didn't just learn what they know from schooling, but from her own personal experience. This is the original ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street. Dr. Nay here today. Welcome on the podcast. So nice to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so you're an expert. And truthfully, you didn't just become an experts because of the schooling that you did. You became an expertise through the experiences that had to live.

Why are you doing what you are doing today and spreading this word about trauma bonds? Well, I do believe that experience is the greatest teacher, right? I could have all the letters behind my name, but there's nothing like experience. And when I was in my quintessential trauma bond with the Wolf of Wall Street 25 years ago, i was a fog. Nobody was talking about narcissism and pathological people and trauma bonds. So I really became an expert in this subject because this is what I wish I had. all those years ago to guide me, because it wasn't there.

Dr. Nay's Personal Journey and Expertise 3:00

At what point in time did you tell yourself, it's like, you know what, I wanna learn more about this. I want to become officially an expert with my certifications, my licensures, in this specific topic. Well, that's been like a lifelong journey, honestly. Because when I met my ex-husband, and I put myself into therapy at 23, because I was like there is no way I can handle this life or this man. And so therapy I believe saved my life. I was living in Los Angeles and drinking green juice and doing yoga and meditating and it came to me to go back to school to be a therapist.

So I became a therapists, got my doctorate and then I just saw in my practice all these smart, kind, beautiful women in trauma bonds. And so I'm a nerd, I am a true academic and I said I will go to the research and see what the hell is really happening here. And you have your PhD. What's your Ph.D.? In Somatic Psychotherapy. Okay. Yes. Wow. It's really connected. Yeah. That's not like you ever PhD in something completely different. So, throughout your process of schooling and getting your PHD, did you participate in any of this type of research?

Um, not really specifically in this type of research, but I, I did more about developmental trauma. That was what my dissertation was about. Um no, really the research that I Did is kind of in vivo in real life. Okay. In my therapy room, witnessing what was happening to these people. So you had like your own personal case studies right in front of you, right? In front me and they're in my book. Of course names are changed, what they are my books. Yeah, which you have the book here. You launched it almost a year ago called Run Like Hell.

That name by itself, if it's not catching, what is this book about? And obviously you wrote this to really connect with a lot of these people that have these trauma bonds. Now one of the things you mentioned earlier, you said you saw a lotta women. Is it only women that has trauma bond or are there men that? They can be men. Okay. Yeah, it can be manic. It doesn't matter your socioeconomic status, you know, your sexual orientation rate. Doesn't it matter. it affects every single type of person on the planet.

Right. Now you specialize more on women's side, I would assume. Yes, yes I do. They just find me more and the research shows it's like one in four What is the research? It's like one in four women. With men, it's much less. It just much like less, one to nine men. That's a big difference. Okay, so let's talk about some of this stuff because I know from my personal experiences with friends and family and working in the fire department for so many years, you get exposed to a lot of different relationships and you see people go through certain things.

you kind of wonder like, man, this person could probably be living a more fulfilled life if they weren't in this specific situation. So based on your personal experiences with trauma bonds, at what point in time do you know that you're actually in one of these relationships? Yeah, so I think that what happens, it's like anything, you don't fall in love with a person that's abusive right away. Right, over time this person shows you a different side to them than they presented initially. And so what happens is that you start to think you're crazy.

You start feel crazy, you have conversations with this partner that go nowhere, that just go in circles. you fear the partner, You lose yourself, and I think all of a sudden you turn around and you are like, what happened? How did this happen? And it's usually you're in a lot of pain by the time you get to me. Are there certain things that the partners are actively saying to that individual causing this type of trauma? Yeah. So what happens is that at the root of a trauma bond is one of the partners wants power and control over the other partner.

Right. They use coercion and so they pressure, they intimidate, the dominate, threaten to make the partner fear them so that they're much easier to control or they lie to them straight to their face. You've heard the term gaslighting. Right, or they manipulate them. And so it's really mind control that happens. It can happen in subtle ways. Not physically, but it is often emotional abuse, verbal abuse and psychological abuse. So that's something important to kind of highlight, because when people hear abuse, sometimes people go directly to physical abuse.

Correct. And one thing that I learned early on when it came to abuse is that physical abused, yes, it might hurt, but it's not necessarily what actually sticks the hardest and has the biggest trauma towards you. Words, just words alone. When someone says certain hurtful things, those things will last for years, decades. So I wanna talk about the power behind abusive words and what that can really do to another person. Yeah, so yeah, that's really I'm glad you're mentioning that, you know, the way I describe it is that here's a person that you thought was going to love you that was gonna protect you, they was to cherish you.

And they actually become like an intimate terrorist with their words, cursing you out, degrading, saying horrible things. In the ways I explained, it's like a shock to the heart. When you have somebody that you think is supposed to love you say these cruel, degrading things to you, it's shocking.

What Trauma Bonds Look Like 9:00

It's really shocking, its kinda like, wait, what just happened? And then sometimes people shrink and get quiet or sometimes, people fight back, It just depends. When an individual says those type of things, creating this trauma bond, You know, the individuals that say hurtful things, a lot of the times, it's been knowing that that person is hurting themselves, right? There's something inside that they need help. Is there anything that helps identify these type of individuals that are causing this further trauma?

So to try to guide them in potentially getting them help somehow. Because the thing is, when people are in a relationship, people, they think they love each other, or they feel like they each love other. And the person who's going through the trauma, They might see an opportunity, this person might need some help. How can I get them to help? Yeah, this is what I always say, we don't have pathological infants. People have developmental trauma, they might have a genetic predisposition to have more of a dominant personality, and also culture shapes our personality as well.

So what will happen is that, yes, what do we say? Hurt people hurt people, right? And, but here's the thing is that when you're in a relationship with someone like this, what usually happens is when, you confront them about their behavior, they deny it. They don't take accountability. And actually what happens as they blame the partner. Oh, wow. So that's where the whole mind games come in. And so listen, I'm in the business of change, right? People come to me to change. So I am different than a lot of my colleagues that believe that like pathological people, they can't change narcissists.

They can change? I don't believe. That I've seen them change I have actually witnessed it. But here's the thing they have to want to have the money. Yeah, you know, They have two want a change It's almost like a person who wants to succeed in business, like, a business owner. You could call yourself a businessman all day, but if you don't want it, you're never going to win. Right. Just think of it like business. If you do not have that drive to change, then you are not going change. A lot of times, these people get a lot benefits by being abusive, because they get to control people, they do whatever they want.

They get all their needs met. Have you seen that there's any particular culture group that has more of these trauma bonds? My mind's going into like, it just starts spinning about different relationships. The type of relationships I've gotten exposed to, me being Dominican from the Dominican Republic, where It was very kind of old school mentality where it's just like men lead the house. My father never cooked growing up. Now me growing here in the United States, I took a little bit of a different approach.

I wanna know how to cook. Do a lot of the things that my father wasn't necessarily supposed to do. And I don't wanna take anything away from my dad because I got a good relationship with him and him, and my mom are still together. Different time but you know I could see that certain cultures might Create some of these signs and symptoms that cause these type of trauma bonds. Have you noticed that at all? You know, I really I mean in some cultures it is can be more extreme, but honestly I've just seen it in every culture in ever culture.

Yeah, it's just I just see it, you especially in patriarchal cultures where there's a hierarchy and Right, because in a patriarchal culture, and there's a hierarchy, it means one person has to always be above the other one. That's really all the patriarchy means. So, in the world that I would like, I'd love for partners, one partner to be in their power and be connected, for the another partner, to in power, be connect, not power over. Right. Figure out who has the power in respective roles, right?

So being a former firefighter paramedic for 12 years. Yeah, so cool by the way, I love that. I appreciate it. Here in Florida, firefighters and cops have the highest divorce rate. Oh, do they? Okay. And it's something that I got exposed to quite a bit working in the fire department. And I know firefighters and cops, first responders, they have a lot of PTSD because they get exposed to all kinds of stuff. So how can a person, a man, going through a lotta PTSD, post-military, you know, First Responder, whatever it might be, how could that potentially feed into creating a potential trauma bond?

Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, traumatized people, right? Because what happens is when you've experienced a lot of trauma, right, like you're a firefighter, a first responder, it creates a lotta feelings, lotta negative feelings. And so, especially with men, unfortunately, we haven't taught men it's okay to process, that it is okay feel. So what do they do with all those feelings? They stuff them. But feelings and emotions are energy in motion. So just because we stuff them doesn't mean that they go away.

And so think about it. You have all of these negative feelings swirling around inside of you. What happens is that this person thinks that the negative feeling are coming from out there. They don't realize that have unresolved negative emotions inside of them. So they think those feelings are coming from out there, so they start to blame the other people in their environment. Makes sense, right? They can't locate, it's like, oh it must be her that I'm feeling sadness or anger or frustration or disappointment.

No, its probably unresolved trauma. And how does a person like that, how are they able to identify that and be able deal with it? Well, that's where relationships can actually be a beautiful mirror, right? If your partner says to you, hey, like you're flying off the handle at every little thing and you are highly irritable and, you know, getting angry at things that don't seem to be warrant you being so angry. And if that person really does love that, they, and they hear it enough enough and the person says, listen, I'm only telling this to because something's happening.

Abuse, Gaslighting, and Control 16:00

And then hopefully the pain's partner can hear that and then get help. Yeah, yeah. You know, before I retired from the fire department about five years ago, I remember when I first started, it was kinda like you just had to suck it up and just deal with it. Anything you would see on these calls, those traumas and stuff, you kinda just let it build up, right? And we started noticing like suicide rate was going up. You know, the more traumas people got exposed to. But eventually the city started to bring a lot of these professionals, right?

And one of the biggest things that they would talk about is you have to be able to talk it. That's right. And you need someone to to about it, you know? You need that. It's how they say every great athlete has a coach. you that coach to at least guide you through the process. And before I actually retired from the fire department, it became like the new cool thing to be able to actually talk about certain things. And even if it wasn't related to the trauma, yeah, um, It was important for you to even like, if you had something going on at home, they would even have days where they bring the wives in so they know how to deal with you when you got off of duty.

Right. So then you can have a better relationship. Yeah. I always try to like throw in stuff with first responders because obviously I was one for many years and I think it's a You know part of our community that need as much help, especially from experts like yourself. Yes I mean, how do we expect we throw these people into these traumatic situations? Don't give them emotional resources. What would we expect that would happen? I'm so glad that they do that. It gives me hope. Let's go back to the trauma bonds, specifically with females that are experiencing trauma bond.

What is it that, if someone's listening and just listening to the podcast right now and says, man, I think I might be inside of a trauma bond, what are some of the signs that they would know that this person, they're starting to be in one of these trauma bonds? What they'll start to notice is that there'll have a symptom called cognitive dissonance. And cognitive dissonance is basically the mental discomfort we feel when we have two competing ideas inside us that we can't reconcile. So they'll start to be like, is he good?

Is he bad? Am I crazy? is He crazy, his relationship good or bad. And so she'll started to have all of these questions good, or, bad about her, him or the relationship that never reconcile. and she will start notice that she really loses her sense of self. She can't have autonomy. She can't dress the way she wants. She'll feel isolated. A lot of times these people want to isolate you. Or she'll notice her partner's words don't match their actions. And a lot times the pathological partner, even though they're abusive, they claim they are the victim.

And so she'll see that even though this partner might be hurting her repeatedly, the second she confronts him, he's like, I'm not doing anything to you, it's me who's suffering. Which could be true, she's just not causing it. So there's a lot of signs, which I talk about, as you can see, and I could go on and on. And this is good. Is there certain things that the individual, the female that's going through the trauma bond, that she'll start catching herself doing that are not her typical behaviors?

Yeah, sure. She'll probably start to have something we call reactive abuse, where if somebody's abusive to you, and I Behaves like this actually finally, you know, I'm from Brooklyn So I was like I would get angry in ways that I never even knew because I didn't grow up in a home where there was a lot of anger so I Was like, oh my god. I don't recognize myself or you you abuse substances right because you just want to numb and You don''t want feel what you're feeling or want be in denial about the relationship And you probably will isolate from your family and your friends because you're embarrassed.

I can't keep going back to them with the same story and not leaving. So one of the things you mentioned is the substances, which that's a form of sedation. And those substances can include things like alcohol, drugs, right? And that something that they would potentially catch themselves utilizing frequently? Yeah, sure, just to numb. Substance abuse or substance dependence is a great way to avoid pain. Yeah, man. And you know, one of the things we were talking earlier about my business mentor, Yadda Kattla, who's big into emotional fitness, mental health.

Yes, yes. We talk about sedation and how sedatation, a lot of people sedate through drugs and alcohol, but sedations sometimes can be other things as well, too. He would always talk, he would sedated working out for hours and hours. You would do the Iron Man. I mentioned that, yeah. it's a little bit of a healthier sedation, in my opinion. But at the same time, if you're not addressing the issue and addressing, the trauma that you have, so you can actually start going through the healing process, sedations, you still gonna have those same issues and you not gonna solve them.

So that guides me to the next question here. Someone who's going to this, what are the initial steps to being able to, You know work on oneself because of this trauma bond or being able to get out of it Like what what is the next step when you find out like man?

Trauma, PTSD, and Emotional Suppression 22:00

I'm in it Yeah, you're in. It. Well first you have to have radical acceptance that you are in right? You have stop denying you. Have to stop saying I would say hope is The hook oh he's gonna get better or this is gonna change right once you Have radical accept that your in a trauma Bond what I tell people to do, there's two things. The first thing you have to is put the mirror back on you. You've been obsessed with this other person, trying to fix them, try to make the relationship better, you lose yourself.

Get interested. Who are you? What do you need? what are your attachment patterns? Uh, what do your personality traits and really start to focus much more on yourself? The second thing is if you do want to leave, don't tell them. Because if you're living with a person that wants to have power and control over you, you think you gonna say, hey, I'm thinking of checking out of this relationship. They're gonna be like, great honey. No, they're going to go nuts and the relationship's gonna get more dramatic and erratic.

So I say keep it close to the chest. Make a plan that you can get out and go to helpers. Helpers are everywhere. Just this podcast alone, right? Like Mr. Rogers, your too young for him. Used to watch and so he always said go look for the helpers right because you can't build resilience alone as we were talking about so that that's that good that you bring this go to the Helpers because I feel like sometimes when you're having issues in any kind of relationship You have helpers, but then at the same time, you think you have helper, and it could be somebody who's feeding into you being stuck into there.

And sometimes it's not just a friend, it can be family as well too. Sometimes family doesn't want to see you split up with the other person. So how do you handle That part because I feel sometimes Like when you're having an issue with your partner you start bringing people involved, you know You're some of your best friends or you bring in family. Yeah, now it's like it. It's almost like your mindset just gets so like Overwhelmed. Yes people's opinions like confused right and you were already so confused, right?

We talked about the cognitive dissonance. That's why I would you get my book, I say that education leads to empowerment. So read, social media now is a great way to get educated, and find a therapist. And a lot of people will say to me, well, therapy is so expensive. But this is what I said. When I was becoming a licensed clinician, I had to do 3,000 hours at $5 an hour. Wow. Find one of those people who are training. And that's actually a good idea. Yeah, every state. Listen, we need the hours because we want to get licensed already.

Right. And you need to therapy. So I wouldn't trust family and friends because. They have their own biases and they project and you need an objective person usually. You know what I like about that too is when I was younger, when was in, I graduated high school and I going through schooling, through the fire academy and stuff, and my back used to get crazy achy. I said, man, just need a massage. But I couldn't afford these expensive massages. Right, right. And I'd go to the massage school. That's right!

And to be honest with you, you know, kids that were going through massage school. They were fantastic. And as a matter of fact, I felt like they had more like drive and passion. Yes. So I personally feel you bringing that up. You might get some of these people that are going to the training that I like so like gung ho and really want to have burnt out, right? They're not burnt. Not burnt down. Yeah, that's an amazing thing. Is there somewhere? How do they find? Do you go to local colleges, local universities that have therapist training programs?

Okay, or and you can just like Google Low-fee therapy, you know and You just see what comes up and then you just start to ask. Yeah, that's an amazing idea. I love that I feel like more people can get help. Yes, yes Awesome. So, okay, so let's talk about the book because I feel like they can get a lot of help from the books as well, too. Yes, they could get help. Yeah, the Book is a really good book. You know, when you write a book, you never know because you're just like alone in your thoughts.

But now it's been out for over a year and I get so many messages from women saying to me, Nadine, it is my survival guide. The book is saving my life. It is making me leave. And I think why it was good is that I take initially four trauma-bonded couples. Okay. And I describe their madness, because it's really madness. Then I weave their stories all throughout the clinical material so you're not bored. And then the women get to see their stories in these stories. And so in the beginning, I do the couples, explain who the pathological partner is, the woman.

I explain the symptoms you get from being in this sort of thing. Explain how to leave safely. Then the whole last section is how you heal. So I take them through a whole journey. Healing process. Yeah, that's a whole nother process because it's first. It's let's get out of this trauma. Yes, first Let's run like yeah, which I love that name by the way, so let us run Like hell but then after you run and you're able to leave safely Yeah right now. There's another part which is a very very important part It is the healing process and part of the Healing Process it is When people end up leaving a relationship, both of them are always thinking about each other.

And one wants to reach out and one who wants send a message or whatever it is. So how do you start a healing process still in that mindset? If you're not married, if you haven't been married or if don't have kids, you have to go no contact, because it's like a drug, right? You're addicted to coke, and then you go back and get a little another hit, your back in it. So you really have go to no-contact from that person to start your healing process. And like I said, that's when I tell them turn the mirror back on themselves.

How long does that no content go for? And you have to do it forever if you can. Because every time you dip your toe back in, all of the longing and the feelings, and what happens with the trauma bond specifically is that in the beginning when you fall for this person, there's a lot of love bombing. So that's the term that I'm sure you've heard where it means that the person is like, like you're my soul mate and they give you so much adoration and admiration and their obsessed with you. And so when we leave, we're longing for the love bombing part.

We forget about, I call them Dirty John and Romeo. So we are longing Romeo, so that's what can make the longing really hard in a trauma bond.

Recognizing the Signs of a Trauma Bond 29:00

But I always say like when you wanna text them I say to my patients, text me. You know, do not text them because it's, you have a big, You have to heal your loss of self. You'll have heal you cognitive dissonance and you'll to have your CPTSD symptoms. There's a lot of healing that has to happen. And that's not anything that happens overnight. So, the last thing you need is something to trigger. That's right, exactly. Put you back where you started. When you start talking about this healing process, what does that look like?

Well, you know, for everybody, it's different. So if a person has a lot of early developmental trauma from their childhood, then they've left a trauma bond. They're getting squeezed. Oh, wow. Right. Wow. That person's healing is going to look different than someone who just really is just getting out of a trauma bond, right? I mean, we all have some relational trauma, because there's no such thing as perfect parents. So the healing process is going to look different. But the first thing I do is I teach them about their attachment.

I start to teach about that personality traits. And I really use psychoeducation, validating what they've experienced. Then I see what symptoms do they have. Are they depressed? Do they have shame? do they Have flashbacks? So these are all symptoms of PTSD, and I give them an assessment and see, okay, which symptoms do you really have? Everybody has loss of self and cognitive dissonance. So that I don't have to worry about. And then I come up with a plan and a program based upon what symptoms they Are there any like retreats that help kind of like kick off?

There are retreat, there are. In fact, I just got asked to do one, but I'm doing a TED Talk, so I can't do it. But there were retreat where people can go. And they usually leave for a few days? They usually for few day and I also have a trauma bond recovery community. Okay. That's really inexpensive and in fact tonight I'm running the group there. Oh nice. Yeah, it's all Zoom and so women can join that too to connect with other women, get validated. Right, right. Because as you keep mentioning we gain strength with each other.

There's definitely a support system. Yeah, they need support because it's really hard because they want a call. They want to go back. That's amazing that you have a group like that. I've been part of different brotherhoods and when you another person that feel comfortable where you can just reach out to and kind of let them know what you're struggling with right now throughout the process, you know you at least have someone that can bounce things off of. Yeah, you don't have to do it alone. And you can have someone talk you off the ledge and say, take out your list of all the bad things he did, read it, ride the craving for 20 minutes, and then see how you feel.

Yeah. Okay, so and there's just so much When it comes to like someone who's been through any kind of trauma, you know now we're talking about that healing process of what it's like now most people when they go through that Healing process and I don't want to put a number out here That's gonna scare someone to even consider going through the healing processes. Yeah, how long can that heal process go go for two years? Two years. Yeah I don't tell them that when they first come no because then they'll run away But um, you know, no, but if they ask me i'm pretty honest But again, it depends upon they've been in therapy before did they have relational trauma?

I know it's you. Know healing is a process, right? i mean i 57 I'm still healing i've in there for 25 years and i'M a doctor like it never ends. We just get better at it So someone who's in a trauma bond, and they start thinking about how they want to get out of that relationship, is it a good or bad idea for them to start seeking into a different relationship without healing? Bad idea. Bad Idea. Yeah. I figured you would go there. Because, you know, a lot of people get out of one relationship to get to another one, and then it doesn't give them the opportunity.

And yes, they got rid of that other individual. But what can happen if they don't get themselves that time to actually heal and start going into another relationship? Well, first of all, They bring all the issues from that relationship into the new one. right so it's just and then and it just doesn't work out because they're just going to be triggered triggered left and right and you know when you leave a trauma bond and we talk about this you who do you trust again right how do You learn to trust but you have to spend that time learning to Trust yourself right okay and learning To listen to your body because You know, in Western society, we've reified the brain and thoughts.

We've made it like the master. But I believe the body is where our real self lives. And so I teach them to like, forget about the thoughts, what do you feel inside here? Let that start to guide you. Like anything, like playing the piano and learning scales, you have to practice these skills. They take time. Do you include any kind of breath work or meditation into that process? Yep, yep. I work with them on their breath and making sure that their out breath is longer to activate their parasympathetic nervous system.

And humming actually is a great thing to stop rumination.

Leaving Safely and Seeking Support 35:00

Oh, okay. Because rumitation's a big thing that people do. It's the number one reason people come to therapy. Really? Yeah. Yeah, well you think about Snow White when they sang Whistle While You Work. I think that's what they meant. Yeah, interesting. I learned so much new stuff on the podcast, by the way. We're going through the whole trauma bond, we're gonna do the healing process. And then once you've actually achieved that healing processes, how is it from there? What type of mindset, is that like when the person should feel confident enough to now start dating again?

Yeah, so the nice thing about relational trauma, especially this sort of trauma is the research shows 75% of people who experience this relational experience post-traumatic growth. Mmm, right. So we always hear about PTSD, but we don't talk a lot about ptsg So post-traumatic growth is that relative relative to the new relationship? Or is it like like growth for them in general for the growth? Really? Yeah, like even like, you know succeeding in career. Yes. Yeah Because they realize how strong they are they reconnect to their authentic self they can make meaning out of their suffering.

Sometimes they're more connected to their spirituality. Pain makes us fall on our knees and it makes open to change. And so now all of these new shifts in perceptions and these ways of being can emerge. So that's amazing, actually. So the amount of growth that you can see from just getting past that trauma and healing could probably be the light at the end of the tunnel that we've been searching for. That's right. And you just, you know, like my trauma bonds, when I left, I went to a really great place called the Karen Foundation.

and like you said, i went through a five day retreat called Breakthrough. I didn't know I could say no. i didn' know what boundaries were, right? This was a long time ago. So that traumatic bond forced me to learn so many things, because I was like, I'm never experiencing that again. So Dr. Nate, so, okay, we talked about post-traumatic growth, which is something that's almost like the prize that you really get from getting out of this trauma bond. That post-traumatic growth, I think that's one of the things that people have to also think about is when you're in such this trauma bond, what is really happening and how you being held back from a lot of things.

You have envisioned yourself in life doing a lotta these things, right? Yes, yes. Yeah, because the trauma band does hold you back for reaching your best self. Because this person wants control over you. So you can't become your better self, it's just an impossible situation. When you leave, it's so freeing, even though it is scary too. I mean, don't get me wrong, right? It can be fear and you can sad and lonely, but once you work past those feelings, and healing is not linear, there is a better you, I think, on the other side.

That's been my experience and I've helped so many women have that experience. Amazing. Can a trauma bond happen long-term versus it just happening right away? Like someone who's had a wonderful relationship, a marriage for five, six years, and then all of a sudden people start noticing year nine, 10, that the actual trauma band develops. That can be very common, yes. For different reasons, like maybe the person becomes more successful and they become more arrogant, or maybe they come less successful and more depressed and they acted out.

Yeah. Right. So that's a good thing. You have to watch out for this throughout your entire relationship, regardless if it's five years or 20 years. That's right. Are there things that couples can do to prevent themselves from going into a trauma bond relationship? Yeah, you know, we live in a world, thank God, now where therapy is open to everybody, right? Where self-help and personal growth, spiritual growth physical, mental, emotional health, if you want it, it's out there. Right. And so, you know, I think about my own daughter.

She is a therapist, and I was watching her and her husband and baby. And her husbands are equal. Her baby's happy. They live in a calm, safe home. Then I'm like, You know what? We broke the generational trauma. Wow. And she's a therapist in in this yeah, she just basic therapy. Okay. Yeah, but she is a therapists. That's pretty cool. Yes gotta be rewarded. It's very rewarding, right?

Healing, No Contact, and Post-Traumatic Growth 40:00

Okay, so that that's really cool so so, you know and the reason why I was asking that is I I've started noticing it's become more popular for couples, like married couples to actually have a therapist that just, nothing really is going on negative in the relationship. They just have it to keep the relationships healthy. And some of these therapists are giving them things to do on the weekend. That's gonna create more kind of a social environment for both besides them being on their phones or whatever.

Right, right, because everybody comes with some relational trauma. I mean, nobody has perfect parents, so we've all been wounded in some ways. And so when you go to therapy, you get to understand what your partner's wounds are and not trigger them and also take it so personally. That's the part, when people take things too personally, then it gets totally blown out of proportion. Exactly, so you get to learn about your partner, and I think that's really important. And I've been married now for 25 years.

Oh wow. Yeah. So we definitely know each other's triggers. For sure. 25 years, I would hope. Awesome. Dr. Ney, as we wrap up here, if there is one person out there that's listening who can really, you know, resonate with everything that we've been talking about with dealing with PTSD, dealing a trauma bond, having some of these serious relationship issues, What is that one thing you can tell them right now? So if you're feeling like, oh, this is resonating, I'm in a trauma bond, don't ignore that feeling and approach healing.

Don't avoid it. don t deny it, Don t dismiss it Don' t just say, Oh, it's going to get better tomorrow. It's gonna get bette next week. Trust your gut and approac healing, even if it' just a little bit. Make the phone call. The research shows even making a phone cal to a helper, you start to feel better. Wow, wow. If you have the feeling, make the phone call. And guys, we're gonna share some of this contact info with you guys to make sure that you access to this information to be able to reach out to a helper.

You know, the other thing you could do also is get the book. The book is definitely gonna give you a lot of guidance. A lot guidance, yes. All right, awesome. So where can people find you? Okay, so they can find me on Instagram at The Real Dr. Nadine. They can go to my website, drnaene.com. Now my community is a bit of a pain, but it's tbr.drnae. com. And I'm on TikTok with the Wild West of social media at DrNaeLMFT. Amazing. Yeah, come say hi, because I answer all my direct messages. I love it.

Guys, we're going to have all of these different links and stuff down below, and engage, Dr. Nate puts tons of content out there before the podcast. I was like, oh, let me go check it out. And I went through that whole algorithm thing that Instagram puts you through, so I just watched everything, which is very informative. You've done a lot of other podcasts. So I appreciate you being out here spreading that word and helping people, because that's what we're all about. Thank you so much for having me.

This has been wonderful. It was a pleasure. Thank You. Guys, thank you again for watching another episode of a healthy point of view podcast. Make sure you subscribe, follow, share this podcast and you know, we all know someone who's dealing with some of these issues. So make sure You share This podcast with them because it could be that one person that just needs to hear it until the next one. We'll see.