From Managing to Coaching: Transforming Healthcare Culture with Jo Wright

Introduction and guest background 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Safe Space. This is the podcast dedicated to healthcare professionals' wellbeing at work. So I'm utterly delighted to be joined today by Joe Wright, who is the co-founder of Coaching Culture Ltd., founder of Joe Wright Speaker and Coach Ltd. and bestselling author of No More S.H.T. with an apostrophe between them. manages seven steps to coaching culture. With over 30 years in blue chip leadership and a professionally accredited coach, Jo is here to explore how coaching led culture can transform our healthcare environments.

It's an absolute pleasure to have you today, Jo. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you. I'm really excited to have this conversation and how best I can help and support such an essential profession. So I'm really privileged to be here and part of the conversation with you. So thank you, Marion. Amazing, amazing. So can you begin by sharing with us what inspired you to write, I'm just going to say it, No More Shit Managers, and how your coaching career led you into cultural transformation?

Absolutely. So if I could maybe flip those two questions. So first, the cultural transformation that then led onto the book. Um, oh, you said it at the introduction over 30, it's over 30 years now, um, in many great organizations and one of the, lots of different roles within these organizations, but I was always a manager of people. I didn't always take a coach approach style. That was in my earlier years because I didn't really know even what that was. However, as time went on, I learned more about the coaching style.

I fell into learning how to coach myself. And I saw the difference it made. But one of the critical roles I had in my career, and you know, you have those roles that you kind of go, that was a catalyst for something different. It got me thinking differently. I was actually, it was interesting, a change manager on a transformation change program. And it was about culture change. It was about systems processes, all sorts of different things. Interestingly, the acronym for the role was CALM. It was Change and Learning Manager.

Honestly, it was anything other than CALM, but nonetheless, I did like the acronym. And I recognized that coaching was the silver bullet. So you can't just tell people to change. You can't just tell people to go and do things. Tell, tell, tell. People don't respond like that. Life would be way too easy, boring, whatever it is. And I recognized there was a real psychology behind changing behaviors. That got me more intrigued on how could I learn this more? How could I understand this more? And I went on then to do a professional coaching qualification.

Um, and I then, that for me was like total epiphany. Like, wow, why did I not know this about myself before? Limiting beliefs, you know, I've been carrying limiting beliefs on my back. Felt like an invisible rucksack full of bolder size limiting, but that I just kind of shed. Haven't we all? Well, I shed them through the coaching qualification, bar one. There's still one that's a big juicy work in progress, but that's one for another day. I remember having a conversation with my now business partner at Coaching Culture saying, how do we get coaching out to the masses?

It is the thing that makes the difference. It focuses on mindset. It's less about skills and knowledge. It's absolutely about how you help people with their own psychology. How do they reflect on, you know, how do they get, reflect on their own behaviors? How do they reflect on their own. How did they learn about themselves more and more? Really fascinating. And from that, we got chatting about how do we get coaching out to the masses. And that's where coaching culture began, which is coaching on an organisational scale within different industries.

How do we get it out to as many people as possible? And that then led on to the book being written. And yes, it is a cheeky title.

Why coaching culture matters 4:08

And the reason I've done a really cheeky title is if it had been a boring title, do you know what? Less people would read it. And the purpose behind the book is to get more and more organizations and businesses thinking about how to build a coaching culture. So I actually really like the fact that you've got such a catchy title. And I think the expletive shows how imperative it is that we really get our ducks in a row about management. It's so important. It's so pivotal. And I really feel like It's easy, I think, in a management role to get lost in the planning, in the management, in the telling people what to do.

you know, rather than coaching, rather than the empathy and the compassion, the compassionate leadership, which will actually allow good management, good leadership, workforce retention, you know, job satisfaction, all of those components of actually keeping our staff and making sure that people have a good experience of their job roles. Absolutely. And work should be a positive experience. I know we're going to have challenges and I absolutely understand that. But in the main, work should be somewhere we want to go to.

We want to be part of it. We spend so much time at work. It's a huge chunk of our life, that and sleeping and often work can impact your sleep. So we've got to get it all right in the right proportions. And really, you know, my book has got a cheeky title. Like I said, deliberately so. Actually, it's also been called a love letter to humanity, which I love. You know, that actually is what it is. It's a plea to think about how we lead and manage our teams, how we bring out the best in people. Whenever you ask people, you know, when you think of the word coaching, what do you think of?

Honestly, Mariam, there are never any negative words. It's like, well, why aren't we doing more of that then? You know, it's unlocking potential, it's enabling change, it's optimizing performance. enhancing wellbeing, psychological safety, belonging. Okay. If it's all of those things, why are we not doing more of it? Rather than taking the pressured tell, tell, tell approach, which is so yesterday, so yesterday, and it's not what is needed for now or the future generations. Everything I do is about the here and now, but it actually is also about doing this for your daughter's generation, for the generations who are going to be entering the workplace.

I've set myself a deadline of, well, it was 30 years, so that would have taken me to 82, but now it's 29 years. So I've got one year off my deadline to help organizations build a coaching culture because it will make a difference. And I've said at 82, they're on their own. No more help from Joe, but yeah, I feel so passionate about it that we have to get this right. The world of work in whatever industry we're in, whatever system has changed. And I appreciate this pressured environments and healthcare more than ever is so pressured, but we can still take a coach approach more of the time because that builds internal resilience more than anything.

Yeah, we can't give up on society, on health insurance or any of our workplace environments. There is a real issue with burnout across the board. I think people are getting angry. I think people are getting tired and frustrated by how little they're paid in comparison to how much they work. It really feels like we're just being chewed to the bone by this machine and it's got to stop. We have to build community. And I think your book is a shining beacon of starting that thinking. And it's interesting in the healthcare environment.

I'm now also part of, so I've got coaching culture over there. I'm also now part of something called Future X Leaders and that is all about community. What we've identified is that, you know, leaders are feeling lonely. They're feeling burnt out. They're feeling frazzled. They don't know which way to turn. They don't know who to talk to. And actually we're bringing together people in a community to feel that sense of belonging, that psychological safety. We talk through issues and challenges. We coach through issues and challenges to help people think through their own challenges to build that resilience.

You're so inspiring, Jo. I love your passion for coaching. It absolutely oozes out of you. It's just the way that you speak about it and you're so knowledgeable. And I just think you're such a valuable voice in this field and a real kind of trailblazer for improving things. I mean, not only in your industry, but also in healthcare. I think it's so important to hear from you about this. So you stress a shift from managing to coaching in leadership. So why would you say this change is essential for healthcare teams?

And what is the difference between a coach manager and a traditional manager? I think more than anywhere, I think in healthcare, I think this is absolutely critical. So traditional manager will be, let's get the task done, task, task, task, task, task. I call that transactional, so transactional relationships. I think when you start moving from the transactional to the transformational, that's where a coaching style comes in more and more. What does that mean? It's more getting to know the human, the human being behind the task.

get to know them, you know, what's going on for them in their world, not just what's going on for them at work, actually getting to know the human behind the work. And that's what I would call transformational. You lead with empathy, compassion, care. You still can challenge. It's not all fluffy. And in fact, it's very much not. It's still challenge, but it's support. It's built on trust.

From managing to coaching 10:21

You're building a trusting relationship and that builds people inside. It helps strengthen their resolve and that's what coaching does. It's somebody who's got your back. It's somebody who's there cheering you on. Even when the times are tough, we're in it together. You know, even simple questions. Oh, and it's leading with curiosity. You know, how can I help? What's, what's going on for you right now? You know, What needs to change? Lots of different questions you can ask people rather than... So actually, it's not speed up to speed up to burn out.

This is just take a breath to be more effective, more efficient, more productive. higher wellbeing, all. So it's a stop to get even better. And that's what I think it means in the healthcare environment. I actually get quite annoyed at how people describe empathy and compassion in leadership as fluffy. And it's so frustrating because I actually think it's the cornerstone to good leadership. And if people feel like they're cared for and valued in their organization, of course they're going to do better.

And a good manager who's taking the time, investing the time and energy into getting to know their staff. It means that their staff are not being put into boxes. They are allowed to be who they are and they're being valued for their skills and expertise. And if a manager is taking the time to find out what they're good at and what they excel at, then they know that they really are such a treasured component of that system. You start to feel indispensable, not just as a body. to fill the hours, but as a person, as a human.

Absolutely. So your book outlines seven steps to coaching culture. Could you describe them briefly? Yeah, totally. So firstly, our seven steps sounds like a, you know, one, two, three, four. There we go. We've arrived at our destination. Isn't this wonderful? It doesn't work like that, but you know, I needed to do a process, a framework to help people at least. We love a framework. Yeah, we love a good framework. But there is freedom within this framework. So I will lay them out one to seven. So number one is visualize.

You know, if we don't know where we're going, if we can't visualize what success looks like, how can we even start this? So this is number one, visualize. So, and that's getting people together who care about the culture that is being created to visualize what does great look like? What's it going to feel like around here when we've got there? What's going to be different? Where are we now? What's going to change? Step two is strategize. Okay, so we now know where we're going. We need to now put the strategy in place to get us there.

So that becomes a little bit of the what and the how. Putting the resources in place, putting the thinking in place. We need a strategy. Step three is engage. So I often see this is the step that gets missed so often. This is where you're gathering two-way thoughts and opinions from the people who work in the environment. because often we tell people, this is the way we're going. Come on, you're on it. You know, you will do this. Whereas actually once you engage people to weigh, that's where you're getting their opinions heard, valued.

Even if they can't, even if their opinions, you can't say, well, we can do that. What you can say is we can't do that, but this is why. That's how you get people on board. This is winning hearts and minds. It's not just about let's get the job done. This is about getting people I want to be part of this. I'm really excited to be a part of this. Often gets missed and that's really important. Step four is gross. This is about choosing the people you want in your industry organizations have the coaching capability.

So I... firmly believe that everybody should have some level of coaching capability. Now, people can often fear that you need to be a professional accredited coach like me. You only need that if you're gonna go out there saying, I'm a coach and pay me to be a coach. This is actually, everybody should have a basic level or some level. And I often say coaching is like cooking. Everybody should be able to cook, but you don't all have to be a professional chef. It's the same principle. That's step four.

Step five is called Thrive. This is where coaching, you've got people being more capable in the organization. You've invested in the right skills and Thrive is all about really starting to coach and give and receive feedback a lot more. This is part and parcel now where we're starting to feel safe. safer to give and receive feedback and the coaching is happening more and more. So this is just, we're starting to thrive. Then the next step is grow, thrive, perform. Perform is absolutely where people are really doing this now more and more in the, in the moment.

It doesn't have to be big conversations. This could be passing in a corridor. This is, you know, small conversations. This is also potentially about removing annual reviews. I have a bit of an allergic reaction to them because why are you reviewing what I did 12 months ago? Let's kind of review what's going on now. Let's keep moving forward rather than reviewing too far back in history. So this is about coaching being in the everyday moment. And then we've got step seven, which is sustain. How do you keep this alive in the organization?

As new people are coming in, how do they know they're going to be part of a coaching culture? What does it look and feel like for them? So it's a continuum all the time. It's not a start and an end at all. I get the sense that from what you're talking about, we are trying to create a safe space within our culture, within our workplace culture, and people are comfortable to be their true selves, to be individuals who are able to express their dissatisfaction or their satisfaction about the processes.

about their working and their performance and they feel able to have conversations about if the workplace is starting to feel toxic or if it's starting to feel unhealthy and they feel that safety of being listened to and that the work environment will change because they've raised those concerns. Absolutely. So this is about, you know, individuals, teams, and then the whole system, you know, building that, you know, all moving in the same direction, feeling that level of safety. And, you know, I know from my personal experience in healthcare, how amazing and how cared for I always feel, always.

I want to feel that actually the people who are working in the healthcare system are also feeling cared for, not just for me as a patient, but actually for the people who are absolutely on the front line and the leaders and managers within them itself. Everybody needs to feel cared for. And I think physical and mental health is absolutely vital, but actually we need the teams having the psychological safety to be able to speak up. It's not, you know, and I, I'm hoping things like this are taught at medical school, but are they?

The seven steps to coaching culture 17:28

Are they? No. That's what I thought. They should be. Yeah, they absolutely should. Because this is, this is the environment in which you're, so for me, if I talk about organizations, I talk about a coaching style is about creating the environment in which others can flourish. So you're creating the right environment for people and teams to flourish and then patient care. will just, will be an even better, another outcome of that. It's logical. It's just common sense. It's so much common sense. Practice.

Yeah. I mean, this is, this is why we need to bang on about it. Yeah, totally. This is why we're here today. We have these conversations because I feel like You know, we're both on a mission to change hearts and minds about changing culture for the positive and this kind of trickle down, but also trickle up. Yes. Get that culture changed. So you've talked through the seven steps very kindly. So which step would you say has the greatest impact on staff wellbeing in high pressure environments, such as hospitals or GP surgeries?

Oh, do you know what? I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to bundle three steps, which is the engaged step, the growth step and the thrive step. So engage, win hearts and minds, grow capability and thrive. Let people give and receive feedback, feel safe in the environment. So I think there's three steps where the teams will really feel and seeing a difference. That's what, you know, the thinking's been done, but now we're seeing things changing. And I think those, I think those three steps are vital.

Yeah, I really like actually your first step of creating a shared vision for everyone and getting everyone on board with that same ideal, because now everyone's got a goal that we're all like-minded in achieving. And so often we get organizations caught up in the rat race. of just filling in the bodies, filling in the rotors, and getting the job done for the here and now. It's very survival-based rather than even short, medium, long-term thinking, which can lead to a lot of dissatisfaction. So you talk about overcoming limiting beliefs through reframing.

So how can a hospital manager help clinicians challenge self-doubt and build confidence So I think coaching conversations really help this. This is about, so what even is coaching? It's about building great relationships, asking questions or being curious, listening a whole lot more. So less tell, more ask. um, listening with care and empathy. And this builds confidence. So challenging somebody on their limiting beliefs or their doubts, actually challenging them, helping them believe in themselves more.

This is all through conversations. You can do this. I believe in you. And when somebody else believes in you, you start thinking, well, if they believe in me, maybe I should be believing in me. So validating and actually it's more of these positive affirmations from other people. And a lot of people need that. Not everybody needs that, but a lot of people do need that. And I think that's where the great conversations can really help build confidence. Asking challenging perspectives, that's what it's all about.

Yeah. When people say, I can't do something. you can. Give it a go. Give it a go. I'm actually reflecting on work environments or teams that I've been in and often I'm the most productive when it truly is a kind and humble leader or a consultant as it tends to be. who is always open to questions and no questions ever too silly and they value the cleaner as much as a fellow consultant, as much as an F2, as much as a nurse or a pharmacist or a physiotherapist. We're all on board. The receptionist has as much value as a fellow consultant and That's how it should be.

We're all humans. We all have skills. We're there because we've earned our place there. And it should not be a hierarchy. It should absolutely be valuing people for their skills and their experience. And when leaders do do that, I really find that the work environment is so cohesive and it's so efficient. rather than work environments that I've been in where there's a culture of fear, where the leader is like a hothead and has made this work environment super toxic, shouting at everyone and it's just so unprofessional.

It's just so unprofessional and it just creates that culture of fear and people are afraid to ask questions and mistakes are made. And ultimately the patient pays the price. Absolutely. This is so, so true. And at Futrex Leaders, which I'm now part of, we talk about changing the system from top down to inside out. So actually what you've just described is inside out, like bringing people together in a cohesive way. And everybody benefits from that rather than top down, top down, shouting through layers of hierarchy.

Actually, everybody's got a part to play. Everybody's got value to add. And at the end of the day, the outcome is about that positive. patient experience and care and wellbeing. And actually if it's done in the right environment, everybody benefits. So I totally agree. Everything you're describing is what I would describe as a coaching culture. It's a system where people care for each other and there will be times of pressure and there will be flash points, but they've got to be managed in a safe way and also know that they're the exception rather than the norm.

You know, people are human, they will feel stressed, but actually coaching conversations build resilience and people know that they can make, I suppose in the medical profession, you don't really want to make too many mistakes, but mistakes may happen, but actually people have got to feel safe. and not shout at it. Mistakes happen, but there are so many opportunities to correct it. It is about building a safe space to be able to express that a mistake has been made and then how do we rectify this ASAP.

How can we learn from this? Yeah, totally. Definitely. I was going to say something, but I forgot. It's fine. We just move on. Coaching isn't just for performance. We've established this. It's about connection. Yes. In your experience, how do coaching conversations during busy shifts help to maintain team resilience? I just think even if it's just those passing in the moment, how can I help observing, recognising body language, recognising when people are not feeling at their best, actually just really in the moment, you know, how can I help?

How are you? Just those touch points of care. And I think What, you know, what do you need from me right now? What support do you need? All those things. And I remember having a fabulous conversation. I know you've got him as a guest coming on in the future, Dr. Thomas Sarif. And I interviewed him on a podcast a while ago. He was fabulous. And he talks about actually when he changed his style into a coaching style, even in heart surgery, which made me go, what? He said the best outcomes happened.

You know, the coaching conversations were happening. in busy, pressured environments. And he blew my mind at actually how impactful they were and what a difference that they were to get people slowing down to speed up to do the right thing.

Psychological safety and resilience in healthcare 24:58

So you know what? It can happen. And it's just about being intentional, I think. It feels so human and it feels so natural to offer that connection when you talk about it. To me, it feels quite innate to check in with people. And I wonder if, especially in high pressure environments like the healthcare system, we do become desensitized and we're so adrenaline fueled. and kind of focusing in on our survival instincts and just needing to get that work done, that we stop looking outwards to our colleagues and we just become an individual that's getting the work done.

So you forget that other people are having a rough time of it as well, other staff are having a rough time of it. And that can be leaders, that can be co-workers and that can start to create quite a hostile environment. Honestly, this breaks my heart. At the end of the day, for the greater good of humanity, we need to look after our people who are working in busy, important jobs. For the people they're caring for, this has got to be a win-win all around. It can't be win-lose, and what you're describing is a win-lose.

The patient may win at some point, but actually, what about the team? They're the ones who are suffering and struggling, and that's not acceptable. People don't get up in the morning to go and experience that. This really impacts people's lives. People can't just stop being who they are when they finish work. They take it home and it's contagious in terms of conversations, it's a ripple effect. When I often talk about that, one conversation can make such a difference to somebody's work day and life and partner and children because they've had a positive conversation.

But on the converse of that, they can also have a negative toxic effect and partners, marriages, children, they're all impacted and it's just. You know, and I know I'm talking, you know, I suppose like the best ever place really of where are we describing, but we've all got a responsibility to make it happen and be as intentional and, and admit when we're not at our best. Cause we can't be brilliant all the time, but actually let's just, we've got to keep striving for this. We have to, we have to, we can't give up.

And like I said, I've got my 82-year-old Joe's deadline. 29 years to go, Mariko. I feel like the government would love you. You're really promoting this retirement age. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't mean to say I'm still going to be working hard all the time. I'm not going to be working till 82, I don't know why you're preaching this. Mine's a purposeful mission, even if I'm going to be sat on a beat somewhere, I'll be still doing the podcasts and the talks and I might be writing the books. That's fair, that's fair.

So Coaching Culture Limited provides digital content, but as we've been discussing, human connection adds that sparkle. So how do you in your work integrate your personal touch to large scale coaching initiatives. And do you know what? It can be large scale or smaller scale. It depends where they are on their seven steps. And it depends. I often say about the seven steps, people feel sometimes it's like, Whoa, that's just too big. It's too, too wielding. Actually the book was going to be called this smarts start small, go everywhere.

Seven steps to a coaching coach. But my colleagues told me that was rubbish. So start small is, you know, so it could be a small scale. And I think the difference is in. So I work with organizations with delivering coaching skills, so helping people, leaders and managers develop coaching skills. I personally go in and do talks to inspire managers to start giving it a go. So actually the human sparkle behind the digital thinking and the content. So it's literally linked to the steps. We could do visualization, working with the leaders on what does this need to look like, strategies, helping people with the strategy, and then hearts and minds is the talks, getting out there.

But actually then it's growing through capability, coaching people on a one-to-one basis or team coaching. There's lots of different human angles that I and many others go into organizations and help. I think what's special about coaching culture and still hasn't been rivaled, we've been around now for eight years, is the coaching digital content is second to none. It's quality and quantity. In fact, we've been called the Google of coaching. And also we've expanded the content into software, which is also people can capture having coaching conversations.

So they can, rather than trusting people to have conversations and maybe scribbling notes down on a scrappy piece of paper, it systemizes human behaviors by actually people capturing conversations making records of it, all that great, great stuff with coaching prompts along the way. So we've created some fabulous coaching conversation software as well. So human sparkle plus digital equals perfect world in my humble opinion. I actually agree with you wholeheartedly. As we become more steeped in this kind of AI world, I do feel like the future is where human interaction and human expertise and that face-to-face sparkle is going to be held at a premium because AI, I feel like is going to become gibberish over time.

Coaching in busy clinical environments 30:48

We're going to have more and more AI content that's being reviewed by AI to generate more content. So at some point, it's going to be drowned out, you know, that human literature and that human creativity is going to be drowned out by AI driven creativity. And I think it's just going to become a bit more of a cesspit of AI literature. So human ingenuity and your mind, your speech, your skills are going to be at a premium and that face to face connection is going to be of huge value. That's what I feel.

I totally agree. Somebody told me a number of months ago that my coaching role would disappear and be replaced by AI coaches very, very soon. And I thought, really? But actually, I think AI can coach us on that very, very basic level, but AI is only as good as the questions you ask it. And it doesn't seem to challenge much. It just seems to go, oh, great. Yeah, great idea. You're amazing. Great idea. Please challenge me. Give me an alternative discussion here. I think what it misses, truly misses, is heart and soul, feeling, empathy, that true connection with another human being, the transformational conversations.

We're going to have to really, really dial those up. Otherwise the world is going to, I don't know, it's going to be soulless. Humans are full of soul and that's what makes us special. Yeah, we need to bring the conversation back to the soul really. I think that's it. And bringing soul to marketing, to leadership, to healthcare, to every industry really. That's what makes us human. So what common barriers would you say prevent effective coaching in healthcare? Would you say time, culture, training?

And how can leaders overcome them? So all of those, time is a big one, but on time, I have this myth buster. Honestly, in my head, I have this visual, in my head, it's a kind of visual hammer that I'm kind of busting the myths. Time is the big one. If people realize that a little bit of time invested saved so much time in the long run, Because what coaching does is empowers people. It lifts capability. It lifts capability of our teams. It lifts capability of our leaders and managers. Everybody grows.

There are no downsides whatsoever to having a coaching conversation. None. But in people's minds, I haven't got the time. So what they do is they carry on doing things the way they've always done and nothing changes and nothing improves. Nothing gets better. In fact, it often gets worse. Invest a little bit of time in coaching people, getting to know them as human beings, just giving a bit of that care. Watch the magic happen. So time, ooh, that's an interesting one. We can smash through that. Training, yeah, I think people don't always get the training that is required or the support and the skills, but also a lot of it's a mindset.

I don't expect people to wait for their system, their industry, their organization to feed their new skills. If people are curious and want to be the best version they can be, we've got, you know, compared to when I started work, you know, 30 odd years ago, we didn't have the internet then, we do now. We can go and access resources. We've got access to books, Google, YouTube. We've got loads of stuff that we want, and AI obviously. We can go and seek out our own things. Other common mid-sites, not my job, That's the job of somebody else.

That's the job of a professional coach. No, it doesn't have to be. You know, if we're wanting to create systemic change, it has to be through leaders and managers. I can't create a system change just coaching one person at a time. It has to be large scale and that's where leaders and managers really can drive this. So training is one, it's not my job. What other things do people say? Yeah, they're the big ones actually. There are a lot. I've got talks that I do. I've got my eight most common myths to bust.

But I think culture, so people being, we need leaders and role models. So if they're responding to a toxic environment, that gets passed down. That gets passed down through the ranks. That's not going to help anybody. So I think the environment, you know, somebody somewhere has got to acknowledge that things need to change. You know, I've worked with some fabulous businesses, social enterprises, different organizations who have actually role modeled this from the very top. And I think, you know, but you don't have to be at the very top of a system organization or an industry to make change.

Change is going to be bottom up, top down, and everybody in the middle. So yeah, a lot of myths.

Practical first steps and closing reflections 35:48

Often people think coaching conversations are if you're just doing something wrong. It's not. It takes people from good to great. Coaching used to be for the, you know, the naughty kids many, many years ago, they need to coach, they need somebody. And it was often just the managers avoiding having the conversation. It's not like that anymore. You know, this is good to great stuff. There's so many opportunities to build on great conversations. I really feel like our leaders need to be singing from the same hymn sheet in terms of coaching, compassionate leadership, and not just for the sake of a tape box exercise, but truly having action behind those words.

So I think when people start to feel that coaching culture within their work environment, it really makes a difference. It really allows people to constantly reflect on their work, not only if they've done something poorly, but also when they've done it well and to have that validation and to have a leader or a manager telling them You know what? You've done a great job. More of the same. This is so good. And getting that feedback just makes you want to continue your job roles, right? It means, you know, the reason that why you came to work that day or why you applied for that job.

There was some passion behind it and it's fueling that passion and keeping you going. Absolutely. So, so true. You know, I know that some people can reframe self-reflection as strategic thinking time. It's strategic. I must be part of my day job then. I must do it. You know, whereas if they think it's about themselves, no, I'm not going to do it. They have to. You have to. Yeah, I'm the same. I'm such a hypocrite, so I'm really trying to become more reflective in my thinking, have less of an imposter syndrome in my thinking and try and coach myself.

I do actually have a coaching degree. And you're doing such great work as well. Your voice is so powerful and getting it out there. And I think, you know, you're a change maker and I think the world needs more of people like yourself to make that difference, to get our voices out there and, you know, mate, for the greater good of, you know, society, we've got to keep going. For the greater good. I wish I could hold your hand when you said that. It means a lot. That means a lot. Thank you so much, Jo.

Last question. Okay. For our listeners to get started, now that they've been so inspired by your words, what practical first steps, maybe small coaching dialogues or reflective listening, could they implement this week? Yeah. Well, obviously I'd be saying download the book because, or listen to the book. There's lots of exercises in there. I'll upload the link. Lots of exercises. For me, there's some great learning out there. Give it a go. Go out and find some great coaching questions. Have a look at what does One of the books I recommend is from a friend of mine called Judith Slater called Think Like a Coach.

I often say if you want to act like a coach, you've got to be able to think like a coach. Let's look at what does a coach mindset actually mean. So maybe go and just get some access to some resources and give it a go. Give it a go. And it is definitely using these more. So in other words, learning the power of silence, asking more questions, but listening to the answer. Don't listen to what you think the answer is going to be. Don't listen to what you're wanting to respond to it. Just listen and be present more.

Just be more intentional in your conversations. and get to know the humans around you. I think that's a brilliant way to end the interview. I've learned so much from you today, Jo. Thank you. And it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show. I really feel like you're well on your way to changing hearts and minds. I just keep doing you. Thank you. I feel like this conversation has really illuminated how coaching and culture change can really elevate wellbeing and health. Yeah, totally. Thanks for inviting me on.

Well, I hope our listeners have enjoyed the show and see you again soon.