How Neural Retraining Can Positively Impact Thyroid Health

Hi everyone, welcome to DrTalks, This is your host Dr. Kelly and we’re doing this awesome series on thyroid health and we have a very special guest Madeleine Lowry, NTP is here. She’s going to talk about the map method and you guys. This is one of my absolute personal favorite tools that I ever used to move the needle so far with my thyroid health and overall health. So welcome Madeleine.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Thank you so much Dr. Kelly. I’m so happy to be here with you.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Great. Yes, like I said, I am super personally excited to talk about what you do in your practice. So let’s let you have the floor. Why don’t you tell everyone about your practice yourself, how you got to where you are and what you’re doing right now?

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah, so my practice right now is 100% method sessions. The method is advanced neural retraining. So it is a technique for advanced neural retraining. It is much more powerful and much easier also than other energy psychology methods of the past. Well not of the past that were created in say the 19 eighties or 19 nineties like E M. D. R. And E F. T. Or what’s commonly called tapping. It is also more powerful than things like the dynamic neural retraining system. And other what I would call basic neural retraining systems. So the method is a mind body healing method that I kind of fell into. Right? I didn’t go looking for this and it would have been hard to go looking for it because it is very little known. There are currently only about, there are fewer than 200 practitioners in the world. So it is and most of them are outside of the United States. So I was practicing as a nutritional therapy practitioner. I was working with a lot of people with allergies and sensitivities and that was you know, part of part of my work with them and working with their chronic health issues was to help them identify those sensitivities so that they could remove these foods from their diet and hopefully start to feel better, right, because we as nutritional practice nutritional therapy practitioners which is kind of a functional nutrition approach, believed that sensitivities have a big effect and can contribute to chronic health symptoms and they do. But so I had this big group of clients that had a lot of sensitivities, though, not all of them wanted to play by my playbook, which is eliminate, you know, take a few months off and then slowly try to reintroduce, they were not having that. 

So they would leave my office and they’d have a list of, you know, I would test them against the food food kits through energy kinesiology and I send them home with a long list of things that they might possibly be sensitive to, right and this is a common experience that people have when they work with functional practitioners because you know, we are trying to get to root causes, but they would say I don’t want to have to eliminate all this, it’s thanksgiving next week, you know, what am I going to eat? And so they, what they wanted from me was how do I eliminate this? How do I stop the sensitivities? And this sent me on a search because this is not, you know, we aren’t equipped for this with nutritional therapy, it’s just elimination and reintroduction, that’s what we have. Those are our tools. And so I started to test a lot of allergy and sensitivity illumination techniques and I found that the best ones worked with the brain. 

So I started to teach A basic neural retraining method and I was very impressed by the results. About 70% of the people that I thought were able to resolve their sensitivities and we also noted that certain chronic health issues also resolved at the same time, which was pretty amazing. However, there was always this group 25 or 30% that didn’t respond and that sent me looking for something more right. I kept wishing that I could find something that I could do for people in sessions rather than sending them home to practice some exercises and practices for an hour a day, for months on end. You know, how could we do this for someone in a set of sessions and then I found the map method. So it’s kind of like being hit in the head. Once I found it, I knew that this was the technique I was looking for.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Great. And so with that I think the next organic question is is can you describe what is going on during a map session or what someone would be experiencing and we can use me as an example, we could, you know, walk, we could walk through you know, my symptom pattern or what that looks like or we could just go through, I know you’ve worked with some thyroid patients, so wherever you want to take us kind of let’s go a little bit more granular.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah, so let’s talk about what the mat method is. Like I said, it is a method is a technique for advanced neural retraining. We do the sessions one on one over zoom video conference. Just the same way we’re doing this conversation, There is no other equipment needed, right? It is not equipment based. Right? So we like to say it’s the latest energy psychology technique doesn’t really matter. You know what your experiences with energy psychology techniques, you don’t have to believe in anything. All you have to do is just be willing and open to the method and what it might offer you and have the ability to connect to the internet and a zoom zoom video conference. So we do this, we do the sessions over over zoom video conference. Every person needs to be initiated to the method that just means that you watch a 15 minute video, you come to your first session. Usually the first session is one hour long when we work with a painful emotional memory, a trigger for anxiety or maybe a phobia, right? Kind of a a smaller emotional topic. During that session, I finished initiating your subconscious mind to the mat methods. So there’s a few preparatory steps that we do takes about 7-10 minutes and then that’s it. It only has to be done once After that. Your subconscious mind is receptive to the instructions that we provide during a session. The instructions are verbal, you are awake and alert during the session. Right? This is not hypnosis. This is not, you know, this is more like meditation, it’s more like a directed meditation maybe. 

And maybe you can talk about what your, you know what it feels like to be a client in a session. But what we, in every session, we pick a topic so you come with a few ideas to help you to choose one. And that topic becomes, you know, helps us to structure this session. Every round of instructions I give you is based on you holding a particular memory or experience in your mind just gently. And then I’m giving your subconscious mind instructions for neutralizing the painful emotions around this memory around all the associated memories. Re changing the limiting beliefs that were created or reinforced by this experience to more positive empowering beliefs right? And working with all aspects of the personality as well. So it is I think a very easy technique for people to engage with because all you have to do is be able to hold a memory in your mind and sit quietly and breathe with your eyes closed like that’s it, right? If you can close your eyes and you know focus on something and just stay open right? Your subconscious mind is doing all the work, you don’t have to consciously do anything. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah that’s my experiences, I had done E. M. D. R. I had done lots of different techniques, I did a little bit of Annie Hopper’s D. N. R. S which was a full time job to do that. Like you said some of these things that are better, well known take up a lot of time are pretty costly and I don’t think that I’m not saying they’re not effective but I’m a busy mom, you know busy working and I was interested, I got referred by a practitioner that I really, really trust our friend Kathy more and I remember asking you, you know like well what can I expect and really, I think it’s individualized, like you said like it really depends on what you have going on. You know I started with the symptom of you know fatigue, I just was like tired and I would have really good months and then you know, months that I really wouldn’t feel well and I and I just did everything physically I could think of and I feel like I know a lot and so I put a lot of things into practice but I know that emotional piece was was something that like again I tried the M. D. R. I tried this so I’m like why not? 

Right. I mean like why not? I didn’t have any expectations. I was almost doing this more as a favor for Kathy because Kathy is just such a sweetheart. I’m like okay I’ll give it a try. But we talked about in previous podcast. I just got profound results and it was for me a directed meditation. I didn’t actively have to I didn’t have to get into a meditative state. It’s almost like my brain just started peeling off layers of the onion. Just getting deeper and deeper on what was the problem. But I had never experienced any sort of therapy tapping anything that really was getting at root causes but I really wasn’t aware of but yet changed my physicality so dramatically and maybe you can kind of talk about that with a specific thyroid patient and how that affected her and her labs.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s like you said, it’s so individualized, right? So we are you know, your physician, your practitioners, you know, your people have chosen to work with on your health issues. They’re handling like all of the functional medicine or you know, right there handling that piece where I like to help people is, you know, if they aren’t working with their mind as well, then their leaving out a really important piece, Right? Yeah. And so this technique is complementary to anything else that you are already doing right? It is not instead of it is not competing with, it is in addition to and I do believe that it accelerates the healing process. Because when we have subconscious layers of stress, which we all do right, we all do. We may feel like, oh, you know, you may not recognize it, but that is definitely there because of your previous life experiences. There are like layers, you talked about layers of the onion. Yes, it’s like layers of the psyche, right? That where there are subconscious layers of stress and these are contributing to a stress response, right? And we know right from your wonderful book that you wrote with Dr. Eric Balcavage, that, you know, part of the contributing factor, you know, here with thyroid health is an ongoing stress response that sort of relentless right? That informs the cells that we are in a danger. 

We are in danger. We are under threat, that we must go into kind of a hibernation state, right? And that means that they’re gonna make less energy. They’re going to be less productive, whatever their job is, they’re not gonna, you know, they’re gonna go quiet right there, just hunkering down, waiting for this, this stress, this danger, this threat to pass. Well, what I want people to understand is that when we talk about stress, we’re not just talking about financial stress, you know, relationship stress, your health stress, right? We are talking about contributors to stress that are unknown to you that are in the subconscious mind. And that is where this method can be effective. So for example, so every person I work with, it’s their issues of course, are our individual, right? Because everyone has a different life history. So I’ll talk about my, my client Melissa who came to see me. She didn’t really know what it was. She was a nutritional therapy practitioner herself, much like you, she felt she had done everything to try to address her thyroid health, everything she knew lifestyle, diet, exercise, meditation, all the things, but she’s still still having problems and she doesn’t want to have to keep taking the medications, medications are becoming less effective for her. 

She’s in her mid fifties, no significant trauma history, but there were topics that came up for us around her life that were very interesting and very unique to her. She had been living overseas. She followed her husband and his job had taken them overseas. She had spent a lot of time in foreign countries where she wasn’t fluent in the language, you know, she she wasn’t originally at first, but you know, became more fluent of course, the longer that they stayed there, but there was an impact to her personality, not being able to express herself or be well understood for many years, not just language but culturally as well. I mean that is a topic that we cleared for her. You know, in addition to more of the common issues like relationship stress or stress around her husband’s cancer diagnosis, you know, and having to be the support for him. Right? So the caretakers often have a great deal of stress, a great deal of burden that they carry. So you know, in addition to all of those things, you know, she had this particular life experience that had created a layer of stress for her. It wasn’t something she was dealing with currently in her life, it was in the past, but by clearing that, you know, it made a difference for her. 

And I think we, I think I worked with her maybe six or seven times and within that time she was able to resolve all kinds of things like back pain and you know, just like gut motility, her digestion improved her hair shedding slowed right, and she was very happy about that. But then when she went and saw her practitioner and had her labs redone, she saw that all of her thyroid hormones were coming back into normal range, right? And this hadn’t been true for years and you and you can hear her whole story on my podcast, she says this was during one of the most stressful periods in my life, right? My husband’s cancer had come back, We were talking about moving back to the States, a huge international move, right, Big upheaval of their life. And yes, her thyroid hormones were looking better than they had in, I don’t know in years. So that’s just an example, right of the things that you’re not going to be dealing with with your practitioner, but we can deal with in matt method sessions and that can start to move the needle.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Right? That’s so interesting. I think the first piece about having having a memory, having a trauma and I don’t know exactly how Gabor mate, one of our favorites, he’s a medical doctor, I don’t know how he he exactly says it, but he says it’s not the trauma that’s important, it’s what happens to you from the trauma inside. So one person will go through a traumatic event and it won’t affect them, but another person will and it will deeply affect them. And so there are levels of that. So something that maybe someone thinks like how can that be traumatic, but yet it actually imprints is quite a trauma and maybe we don’t think of it that way and you know, there’s trauma with a big T. And and there’s little traumas. But what I think about the map method is that it doesn’t erase your mind. You’re I mean you’re not you’re not losing any pieces, you’re not being hypnotized but yet you’re getting. For me, it was like a new perspective, a new way of looking your body a new way of looking at something that happened and reframing it. Maybe like the phrase of our perception is reality. 

So maybe the way I perceived it was causing so much stress to my body and it doesn’t erase the memory. But yet I now have peace with it. And I know during the session will rate a memory like how disturbing or how much stress is this brings you. Okay, it’s a nine when we start and then we’ll go through and we’ll do the map session and then you go back and you pull that memory in your mind’s eye and your whole being feels perceives it differently. Like now doesn’t affect every piece of me. And again this where we started this affects how your body sees different foods, how your body perceives. It’s it’s that cell danger response where your battleship mode. And if your body’s perceiving things as harmful and you’re fearful about them that will come out as food sensitivities and different things. And perhaps you know like the different manifestations in your body and again this doesn’t supplant any medical care. We are not saying this supplants, you know medical attention for any of those things. However, it can be an additional tool, right? And a very powerful one. So let’s go back to the cell danger response is that you know, we write about that in our book, The thyroid debacle about how you know that’s your body’s protective mechanism when your body is under threat, whether that be from chemical stress, microbial stress, something is making your mitochondrial sense that we got to go in this lockdown mode and you’re right about how that can manifest as energy production problems because when we get the flu, our body wants us to be tired in bed, you know, having no sex drive and really, you know, that’s what it’s supposed to do. 

But when we don’t come out of the cell danger response because of all these stresses and emotional stress is a huge one. It’s just a huge adding to the al aesthetic load and it’s pushing down if we get rid of like our gluten sensitivity, we start offloading the stress we get rid of infections, we get rid of you know heavy metals, we correct our nutritional deficiencies. If we still have that emotional stress weighing down your cell danger response is going to stay on and that’s kind of like the final frontier of people and my experience and myself especially coming from the ALPA thick training, I didn’t want to talk about emotions like no, I’m good, I’m fine. You know, everybody, everybody goes through things, Everybody, you know, has these problems, but that can definitely be that last piece or just one of the pieces that if you don’t address that part, it can still keep you stuck. And that sounds like Melissa’s story. Melissa really worked hard on everything in my story as well. But when you keep yourselves feeling like they’re in danger, they’re going to stay in that cell danger response. And again, this papers by Robert Navio, you can look at is called the metabolic features of the cell danger response. Absolutely excellent paper. 

But you don’t address that stress, That emotional stress piece and you’re gonna be going in circles. That’s what I found a lot. That’s why I’m like, we have to have you on this topic in this series for DrTalks on thyroid, because often people with thyroid disease, it’s not just one thing, it’s the Alice static load and we talk about that in the book, it just weighs down. So, an entire chapter in Part three is devoted to addressing emotional stress. And of course, I highlight the map method in there because again, just nothing really moved the needle for me. As much as the final continuing to pull off the emotional stress and and I will say this is that it wasn’t one session and it’s all, you know, it’s it’s really just let’s go back to peeling the onion peeling the layers and things that I didn’t even think were affecting me. Like, oh that happened when I was a kid. Like how can, you know, like they significantly just addressing them, Reframing them having the neural retrain mint, just things get better. Like my digestion gets better, but I feel like it’s always a process. I feel like you can get to a certain you can get to a certain level and then perhaps something might come back up. But the last thing I want to mention is that when I’m explaining the map method to people, they sometimes asked me like, do I have, if I have a very significant trauma, let’s say trauma with a big t do I have to explain this entire trauma to Madeleine or my map practitioner? Do I have to go through? Because that’s very upset like to relive it 100%. No. Like I remember when you would just say like, you know, I would say this event happened and I didn’t even go into detail, but I hold it, you know, as much as I could to not cause any, you know, emotional or any significant stress, I would just hold that I guess the string, just the part of it, you know, where I would just tug on it in my mind and then I didn’t have to go through it. I didn’t have to go into detail. It’s like my mind was like I got this, I got this and we would go through it and neutralize it in effect where then I would think about it again. And it just doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t have the charge, doesn’t have the charge that it did and that is just helpful for moving through the world. Is not having so many things. Excuse me but piss you off like oh then this happened and this happened I guess. I think the alcoholic anonymous it calls it stinking thinking where like if you bring up something in your mind it makes you really angry. It’s like these are some of the things that map has helped me with to just moving through some of those little little traumas or little things to just be more present. And just be more focused. So I said a lot there is there anything that you want to comment on about cell danger or anything?

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah. No, I just want to really echo what you said right? That this is a method where you do not have, it’s not talk therapy. You do not have to talk through it. You do not have to tell me even what the memory is. It’s helpful. If you know if you can give me some kind of description like if the memory had a title, what would it be? You know right? Like that that much. That’s all I really need to know. What I really need to know is how does it make you feel? How does the memory make you feel and how strong are those emotions from you from zero to attend? That’s all I need to help you start to work with the memory. So what is very nice about this is that for people who have experienced E. M. D. R. Which can be kind of a rough process requires vividly rehashing painful memories. This is a very gentle process by comparison. Do you want to talk about the difference since you have done both?

Dr. Kelly Halderman

So with the MDR it was the instruction by the practitioner to recall vividly what a trauma entailed almost like every detail almost trying to go back in even more. So try and remember details that I may have even forgot or purposely forgot. So and then you have some sort of I had in my hands the device that would vibrate back and forth and you and then it was just the session and of itself was so traumatic for me that I’m like I can’t I can’t do this anymore. Like it wasn’t I just wasn’t getting anywhere and I I know that E. M. D. R. Has wonderful studies. I’m not saying that anyone should hang up their E. M. D. R. You know aspirations but it would just we’re just all different and things work for other people. But I thought man if this is the way that I have to clear out some emotions. 

This is just not, this is just not for me and I just wasn’t, I wasn’t getting the lessening of the charge of the, of the event, so we go through it and you’re supposed to have like where now the event isn’t as traumatic like you know in your neural system, but that wasn’t really working for me. So then again when I found Madeleine in the map method, it was you just have to give a title ish, like it’s very, very much, you know, your privacy is so respected that you know Madeleine in the map method and go to her podcast, you talked about your podcast flourished with neural retraining, okay, and lots of episodes on there, you can just hear different stories and and not just my perspective, but I thought it was just a brand new approach that didn’t set, it didn’t, you know, bring me down to get me up, like I didn’t have to take two steps forward to take you know, two steps backwards, you need to get forward. It just propelled forward.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yes, yes, because we are harnessing the power of your own subconscious mind, right? So there’s no need for a device for bilateral stimulation. There is no need to have you, you know, bring to mind every granular detail, as long as you can get your mind in that neighborhood of that, that memory, whatever it is, the big t trauma, you can, if you’re willing to let your mind rest on any aspect of it, you know just before the actually began or after anything right just to get the sub to find the right neighborhood. Then we can treat the memory. And the importance of this is that we’re not just treating that one memory, we are treating the related memories. So that’s the other thing about the map method. Your subconscious mind connect things. All memories are associated to other memories. And so when we can have you focused on a particular memory then the associated memories can be neutralized as well. And so that is why people can achieve very quick and easy improvements, you know in a negative mood states even you know, many people come to see me not even about chronic health issues, they want to work with anxiety. 

They want to work with depression, they want to work with anger issues, phobias. Yeah so all of these patterns can be alleviated simply and effectively with this method and like you said it’s not a miracle, it’s not like everything gets better after one session. No I’m not saying that right, It is a process it does take, it’s the cumulative effect of several sessions. People start to feel changes. My physical level kind of, that’s kind of like the third level of improvement. The first level is usually emotional level. The second level is like behavioral mental and then we get to the physical level, it just seems to be that we have to resolve more of the layers of the onion before we start to see improvements at a physical level for most people, everyone of course is individual, but that’s, that’s my general what I’ve generally seen. 

Dr. Kelly Halderman

And I will say this is that I’ve been working with you for almost 2.5 years and that I had some neck pain and it came out of nowhere and I was like, okay, I’m going to go through my rolodex of what could be causing my neck pain, physical chemical, what is it? Hormonal. And I did everything that I could think of to help with this acute neck pain. And then after doing that for like two weeks, I thought I’m going to set up a session with Madeleine. And so, you know, you started by asking me like, what’s going on right now and I talked about how my my aunt was dying from cancer and you’re like, well that’s pretty significant and I’m like, no, no, I’m fine, I’m totally fine, I’m doing what I can. And and then we started talking about it, I’m like, I don’t think I’m fine, I actually think that you know, there there might be a chance that this pain because your body is always talking to you, that that is just revolutionary information for me as my body is always trying to communicate and we went through this session and you know, we talked about how I probably was putting a little bit too much pressure on myself and that, you know, like I’m doing my best with trying to help her and lo and behold. The next day I woke up I had zero neck pain. I mean, you know, so I’m again I’m not saying this is a replacement for anything medical treatment at all, that is not what I’m saying. But wow, that was a very good example of how our body, it’s speaking to us and that when I really processed out that emotion and I started to deal with it healthy instead of I’m totally fine. How there was a resolution of my symptoms again, Like, I didn’t expect, I really didn’t expect it because I’m like, this is physical, there’s something going on here, but just very interesting. It was on the side of my body that has to do with the female energy too. So, I think that that kind of tails on what you said about when we’re in peeling layers and how we can get. I mean, there was a lot of sessions before that session could occur and but I do think that the map method is definitely something that it’s a powerful tool. So, is there any parting thoughts? Did we miss anything for, like, a person who’s just getting to know the map method? I know we mentioned your podcast Madeleine, which I would encourage people to go listen to. But where what else anything else and then to close with how do we find you? You know, that would be important information to?

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah. So, I want to just say, you know, you mentioned that we’ve been working together for 2.5 years, right? So that sounds like forever. Probably to a lot of people I just want people to understand like we’ve probably met, I don’t know a dozen times over,

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Probably only a dozen times.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah, this is not the kind of thing. Right? Again, this is not the kind of thing where I’m seeing you every week, you know, you know, so it maybe every couple of weeks in the beginning it maybe every other week after a while, you know, things are good. You just schedule a session when something comes up, just like you mentioned, right, I’m having this issue. I’ve tried all my tools, right? And it’s not going away. Let’s explore, you know, let’s explore what working with the mind can do for me and I, you know, I do. So I just, I guess my parting thought here is for the person who has been doing everything right and still and cannot understand why they are still feeling so poorly. You know, including people with thyroid issues, it is worth working with the mind, right? Because when you have a chronic health issue, you want your mind working with you not against you. 

Yes. And with the mat method we can start to uncover and identify. So there’s one thing we didn’t talk about like while I’m giving your mind instructions or whatever topic we are working on, whether it’s hair shedding or it’s a trauma memory, right? You know, we can start from there are a lot of different entry points. So we can work with physical symptoms. We can work with negative thoughts that you can’t stop or like worry patterns. Right? As I’m giving you those instructions, your subconscious mind is starting to reveal its programming, things start to come up for you in your mind as you’re sitting there in your kind of meditative state and after I, you know, give you a few instructions a few minutes I’ll ask you. Okay? So Dr. Kelly what came up during that round and then you’ll start telling I had this memory. I had this image, I had this thought, this word came up, I felt pressure here, right? Whatever it is, that’s your subconscious mind telling you what the associations are. And when you’re working with an experienced map practitioner, they can read, you know those data points and help you decide, okay so I see where we need to go next. Okay this is what will work on in the next round. And so this is how we move through a session. So you don’t have to come knowing at all what the root causes are. No, that’s what is uncovered in the session. All you have to know is how is how is it affecting you? Now? I have this neck pain, you know, I have heart palpitations I, you know, my thyroid health isn’t where I want it to be. Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Yeah, I think that’s important because you’re right. I did say about 2.5 years, but I will say after two sessions which surprised me and it’s not, you know, it’s not the guarantee of after two sessions, but two sessions with you and I was like, my life has changed, my life has changed and I don’t get any kickbacks from, from, you know, people like, like, okay, what’s the catch Dr. Kelly? I’m like, nothing. I want you to feel as good as you can possibly feel and working with your mind again, super important. So yes, it’s been a relationship for 2.5 years. I very often think it’s very strange. I’ve never met you in person because like you’re one of my favorite people on the planet, but I drop off for six months and then I’ll come back on because something, you know, something’s not right, Like the neck pain example. So no, no, this is not like a talk therapy where we really don’t have any first aid conversations other than these podcasts that I drag you on to do, I’m like, let’s do another one. But you’re right, it it can be fast and effective and you can use it. Prn you can use it when, when you want to use it. So very, very good point of that. And so lastly, where do we find more information about you?

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

Yeah, yeah. So if you’re interested in learning more, I do recommend going to my website and that is MindRemapforhealth.com. So mindRemapforhealth.com. And then you also mentioned the podcast which you can find on your favorite podcast player and that is flourished with neural retraining. Lots lots and lots of episodes there, you can hear Dr. Kelly. And I talk about this in another podcast episode there, so you know, and you can hear Melissa’s story as well. She was episode 49 Melissa and her thyroid improvements. So yeah,

Dr. Kelly Halderman

Great. And then one last point is that in between sessions there’s an option for people who have been initiated to the map, which I was just telling you before we started recording is that you can listen to these sessions on your own for free if you’ve already been again initiated and those are extremely powerful yesterday. Like I listened to two of them and had a really, really great results with those for free. So, you know, if, you know cost is something we’re always, you know, we have a lot of things that were shelling money out for. But some of those in between sessions with the map method can be, can be great, and again, absolutely free. So Madeleine thank you so much for your time today, your expertise for what you’re doing. I hope that this map method grows and grows because of the positivity that I’ve seen and what you’re doing for people and their health is just extraordinary. So, thank you so much for your time today.

Madeleine Lowry, NTP

I appreciate being here. Dr. Kelly.

Dr. Kelly Halderman

All right, take care.