Improve Insulin Sensitivity With Plant Power

Robby Barbaro, MPH

It’s so great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I just appreciate the work you’re doing and the impact you’re having. It’s great to be part of your summit.

Beverly Yates, ND

Thank you so much. Would you give us a thumbnail overview of your wonderful background? You have a lot of interesting things that are true about what you bring to this work. I want to make sure that people know what a wonderful expert you are.

Robby Barbaro, MPH

Thank you so much. I appreciate the kind words. You’re focusing on reversing Type 2 diabetes here, and I’m living with Type 1, but the work that Cyrus and I do at Mass and Diabetes is connecting all the various forms of diabetes through the lens of insulin resistance and maximizing insulin sensitivity. As a person living with Type 1 diabetes, I and all the others out there living with insulin-dependent diabetes were all great test subjects for what lifestyle choices can make insulin work more efficiently or less efficiently. I get to see that in my daily life. I was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes on January 26th, 2000. It’s been over 24 years now that I’ve been living with Type 1, and I’ve been following the low-fat, plant-based whole-food diet that we teach at Mass and Diabetes for over 18 years. In that time, I’ve had a wonderful wealth of experience being able to test different foods, different combinations, different activities, and all the nuances of diabetes management to see what lifestyle choices maximize insulin sensitivity. I tried a ketogenic plant-based diet before switching to a low-fat plant-based diet. When I made that change, I saw my insulin sensitivity improve by 900%. I want to be clear: we are not here to say anything negative about low-carb diets. Whose low-carb folks are doing it? There’s a lot of good research out there about how low-carb diets are not the same, and low-carb diets where you incorporate more plant material and more fiber have far better outcomes than low-carb diets that are eating foods, more like processed meats and processed foods. No diet is a dietary category; it can just be that you have a blanket statement saying,  this is good, this is bad. But what we teach is very, very clear. The one thing I again say, good or bad, which is scientifically true, is that there is one way to make insulin work the most efficiently. Through my personal experience and through Cyrus’s personal experience and the work we do, we are showing that it’s low-fat plant-based nutrition, moving your body, and then doing all the things that everybody agrees on. 

It’s the sleep; it’s reducing your stress. Everyone agrees with walking. Everybody agrees with adding more fiber; there’s so much agreement. But then there’s just not that overarching disagreement when it comes to, like, what carbohydrates can I eat? How much can I spend? I’m sure we’re going to talk about that today. But my personal experience is living with Type 1, using insulin, and using a physiologically normal amount of insulin. If you’re living with Type 1, your goal is simply to inject what your pancreas would have normally secreted. If you’re living with any form of insulin-dependent diabetes—any situation where your pancreas is compromised and not producing enough of its insulin—then,  in that case, your goal is simply to inject what your pancreas would have normally secreted. That’s the goal. I’m eating well over 700 grams of total carbohydrates per day, and I’m injecting somewhere between 20 and 30 units of insulin per day, depending on my activity. I’m also an Ironman triathlete, so I did three Ironmans in 2023, and I’ll be doing a couple more in 2024. Moving my body is something that my dietary choices have given me the energy to do, and I want that for everybody else as well. But I use a physiologically normal amount of insulin. I wear a continuous glucose monitor. This shows how well my blood glucose control has improved over 24 hours. A1C was historically the best tool for indicating our overall level of blood glucose control over a given period. Now, with this new technology, time in range has surpassed A1C as the most accurate tool to indicate somebody’s blood glucose control. Because when you look at a CGM, you can see the percentage of the time that somebody spent below the target range, which for the diabetes consensus is for Type 1 diabetes to be between 70 and 180, a minimum of 70% of the time. That’s the goal. what that means, and they want to minimize the lows. No more than 4% in the low category.

You could have a great A1C with a lot of lows and a lot of highs on this huge rollercoaster. That’s not a true indicator of an intelligent way to manage diabetes. That’s why it’s not safe. The time and range. You can’t hide; you can’t get any fake numbers there like it’s just telling you the full story. My time and rate are consistently above 85%, and my percentage of lows is 4% or lower over any given 90-day period of time. I’m doing something that is very counterintuitive. Most people think this is the smart thing to do for diabetes. I’m eating a lot of fruit and a lot of carbohydrates, but I’m using a healthy normal because a lot of people have shockingly low amounts of insulin and exhibit excellent blood glucose control. My blood work across the board is healthy. I’m 35 years old, so you can probably expect some good numbers at this point. But my cholesterol, my triglycerides, all that stuff is perfectly within range. There’s no indication that things going well. I’m also proud to say that in over 24 years of living with Type 1 diabetes, I’ve never been hospitalized. I’ve never had any incidents like that. I just feel confident about my control. But more importantly, we can transmit this information to our clients, to the people who sign up for massive diabetes, and to the program. It’s not just me. It’s not just me improving my instant sensitivity. It’s not just Cyrus. We’re using a very small amount of beans and a large amount of carbohydrates because we’re using the scientific principles of becoming more insulin-sensitive.

Beverly Yates, ND

 I think this is a topic that does not get talked about. Enough people spend a fair amount of energy on insulin resistance, but we want to focus on, instead of the symptom, the thing we’re trying to avoid, the thing that we want, which is insulin sensitivity. Thank you for that intro, because I think it sets the frame beautifully. As we go to dispel the myths, there are many when it comes to plant-based approaches, and some of these myths are persistent. I am surprised that in this era, it’s still a big deal. In talking with you about this, looking at your information, and just thinking about what would most serve this audience in the kinds of questions and comments I get, social media people who replied to the email list that I have, etc., persistently, I see that there is confusion around plant-based protein. Whether or not people can get enough protein in general, do they have to combine, let’s say, lentils with rice, for instance, or get a complete protein? I have more questions about protein. I’m going to ask for some more stuff about body composition. But let’s start with that plant-based protein. Can adult human get their needs met—or rather, get their needs met—with a plant-based approach for an adequate, healthy amount of protein throughout their age span?

Robby Barbaro, MPH

This is a great question. It’s mind-boggling how much confusion has been generated about this topic. The funny part about it is that there’s so much confusion and so much argument about a macronutrient for which we don’t experience problems as a society. We don’t have people who are being diagnosed with some element of protein deficiency. Kwashiorkor is when you are not eating enough calories. I think in food, but at large, this is a truly non-issue. Yet everybody is confused and chasing protein and concerned about protein, whereas the one thing we do have is that we have obesity going on, ravaging our country, and people don’t think twice about how much fat they’re consuming. This is very strange. But the simple answer is that on a low-fat, plant-based, whole-food diet, you can eat. You can hit all of your protein targets. To be clear, your protein targets could be all over the place. Even in the plant-based world, you could decide, I want to be an athlete; I want to be a bodybuilder. I’m going to like to increase my protein intake.  no, I’m going to go on a low-protein diet because I heard that it helps me increase my instant sensitivity, and there’s a lot of research indicating that is the case. Too much protein can increase your blood glucose for four to six hours after a meal. People don’t see it in the immediate short term, but it does end up raising their blood glucose later on. Having large amounts of protein and consuming too much protein makes it more difficult to consume high-carbohydrate foods at subsequent meals. That spike is happening later. That spike is leading to a little bit of insulin resistance, which then makes it more difficult to eat carbohydrate foods at any given meal because then you will see that’s that spike immediately. But when you’re doing that, you add a bunch of protein to a meal and you’re trying to keep it low-carb, and you’re still going to see a delayed spike. That’s a big thing that happens with protein and blood glucose control. It’s all very, very short-term-focused. What you see on social media is: 

And what you see is a lot of people getting these continuous glucose monitors and all these devices who don’t even have diabetes. You have this whole group talking about: What do I have to do to make sure my blood glucose is as flat as possible after I eat a meal? That’s their goal. They see if even see, a little blip, and it goes up to, like, 140, 130, 150. People are just very scared, that’s all. I have the spike in that food, which is bad for me, and they’re missing the point that a blood glucose elevation is normal. It should come back down to three hours after the meal. But this ebb and flow is part of human physiology. It’s normal; it’s healthy. What’s happening is that people are chasing these very short-term results, like, I’m going to add more fat and more protein to my meal to try and flatten out that curve. It does work. They will see that result, and that’s what makes diabetes so confusing in a lot of cases. Blood glucose is so confusing because it does work in the short term. But like I just said, the more you do that, the more you’re increasing your protein intake at a meal, and the less you can eat the carbohydrate-rich foods at other meals. That’s what’s happening. You’re trading a short-term result and losing the bigger picture, the long-term situation of being able to genuinely be insulin sensitive. If anybody wanted to test this, they could do an oral glucose tolerance test, and you could see what’s going on. A lot of times in the low-carb world, you’ll hear people advocating for a super, super low-carb diet. Yes, if you keep that carbohydrate super low and you don’t venture into eating some blueberries, some potatoes, some beans, and stuff, then you can keep that flat. But the moment you do have a glucose challenge, whether that is trying to eat a banana or mango or just going to get an official oral glucose tolerance test, that person would technically be diagnosed as living with either prediabetes or Type 2 diabetes.

Then, of course, the response is, that’s just physiological insulin resistance. They’re like, if we just change our diet, we can go to the test and get a different result. We’re saying, Yes, you’re right. Why not always live in an insulin-resistant state? Why live in a state of physiologic wants and resistance? We don’t suggest that especially when it comes to a long-term society. Can you get all your amino acids? Can you reach your protein targets? Even if you ate just fruit and greens, if that’s all you ate, fruit and greens, which are foods that people don’t associate with being high in protein, that fruit, and greens, although I should say even a thing like lettuce or something, is pretty high in fat and pretty high in protein, but it’s so low in calories that nobody thinks of lettuce or even kale as being high in protein. They don’t eat enough of it to get a significant volume of protein. Anyways, even if you ate those foods, you are still going to land somewhere around 67% of calories coming from protein, which would be on the very low end of what most people are looking for. But based on the tests that were run to figure out how much protein humans need, that would suffice. You’d be just fine. Now, when you start adding in other protein-rich foods, such as beans, you start adding in grains. By adding in some of these more commonly known plant-based protein-rich foods, you can easily start increasing your percentage of calories for protein up to 10, 15, or 20 if you want to. We recommend people use software called Chronometer.

It’s a nutrition log and software. You get it for free. You can use my fitness pals; there are plenty of them out there. But if you have this concern, I highly recommend you just handle it through your objective data entry and just put in a bunch of meals, put in a bunch of sample meals, put them in the software, and he doesn’t need this, me, or that, or just try it and do it, and then just log your food as you’re doing it and see, I got every single amino acid. I reach my overall protein requirements, and wow, plants do have enough protein. If I wanted to tweak it a little more, I could add this. so it’s a non-issue. The short answer to your question is yes.

Beverly Yates, ND

That’s a great tour through the land of the myths around this. It’s been interesting to just watch the nutrition wars that unfold and the confusion that goes with it, and people start arguing about, whether is this the best form, etc. What’s so interesting, Robby? I would love to get your thoughts on this. I don’t hear people talking about what should be obvious, which is individual responses. Some people have more of a response and get more benefits from filling in the blanks in the big macro category of nutrition. Whether that’s going to be protein is going to be carbohydrates, especially the complex resistance, starch, slow-burning kind, or healthy kinds of fats. Some people get more, and some people do better with less. I mean, we’re not identical. What is the struggle that goes on with this? Because it goes across all aspects of health. Certainly, when we’re talking about diabetes, this confusion is that poor people often will start or persist in eating nutrition that is not kind to them. They’re not getting their health results,?

Robby Barbaro, MPH

It’s so true. I just looked up yesterday on Google to see how many people are living on the planet right now. Google told me there were 8.1 billion people. I always like to say that even if everybody decided to eat a plant-centered diet, there would still be 8.1 billion different ways to follow a plant-based diet. Now, not everybody wants to, and not everybody is going to, but let’s just pretend they did. There are so many nuanced differences and so many ways to adjust a program within the parameters of seeking to maximize your internal sensitivity. Even within those parameters, there’s an infinite number of ways to do things differently and gather the data. The mass and diabetes method is something we wrote about in detail in our book, and it has four components. There’s low-fat, plant-based health, food nutrition, intermittent fasting, daily movement, and then there are decision trees. Number four, that’s decisions, which are very important. That is our version of a diabetes logbook, where you write down the activities you’re doing throughout the day, the foods you’re eating, the medications you’re using, and the activities that you are doing, like physical activity and exercise. You’re putting it all on a sheet and seeing it all happen in chronological order, and you’re going to be able to connect the dots and observe which choices make me more insulin sensitive, and I see insulin sensitive. That is your opportunity to observe how certain foods and certain macronutrient ratios are working for you and helping you achieve your goals. that’s a big part of our program.

Beverly Yates, ND

Now, that makes sense to me because then people can dial in what’s true for them. I have another friend, a speaker at a prior summit, who recommended that App, cronometer. It’s spelled CRONOMETER, not CHRONOMETER. Because I looked it up at first, I couldn’t find it. People sometimes like to check these things out, so make sure you have the right spelling for that app. Her advice, and I’m hearing you say the same thing too, is to be curious and find out what works for your health. Enter the information and look at it objectively. Be clear about what your goals are, and then see if what you’re doing is working. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all when it comes to human nutrition, and I think people want that. They want that list. They want that checklist. If I eat this 100% of the time, regardless of whether or not I’m male or female in my pregnancy, am I an athlete, am I breastfeeding, am I recovering from major surgery, etc.? They just want something that’s going to fit at all moments in life, and it’s just not true folks. 

Robby Barbaro, MPH

There are going to be nuances and details are 100%.

Beverly Yates, ND

Robby. As we continue our conversation, I’d love to know more about what your experience has been with Fruit. Many people with Type 2 diabetes pre-diabetes are terrified of fruit and buy fruit. Friends, I’m not talking about peaches and heavy killing, sir. No, I mean, honest-to-goodness, actual fruit. Robby, take it away.

Robby Barbaro, MPH

This is a great question. I understand why people are concerned, scared, and frustrated because they have likely tried eating fruit, and then they tested their finger on a bug glucose meter and saw 200, 300, or they saw it on their CGM, and they’re just scratching their heads, saying, I love fruit; I want to have fruit. It’s something I’ve enjoyed in the past. The data just shows me that it just doesn’t work for me. I’m just going to 90 Fruit, and that’s unfortunate; that’s frustrating. That’s where we go back to understanding that it’s not the fruit’s fault that you had that high blood glucose reading. It’s not the banana, it’s not the mango, it’s not the whole peach, and it’s not the tangerine. It’s the fact that you are living in a state of insulin resistance. Your body is at that point. It’s a warning sign. It’s a beautiful blessing. Warning sign for you to see that. I can’t eat a banana without seeing a bug because people who go above 200 are reading above 200. If that’s the case, that’s a warning sign that you are living with insulin resistance, and you can decide to make changes so you can enjoy the fruit.

When you look at research on large groups of people over an extended period, the more whole fruit you consume, the more intense you become. The lower the rates of diabetes, the lower the complications if you’re increasing your fruit consumption. We know that from epidemiological research. The key point here is that whole fruit is different from fruit juice. Whole fruit: the sugar found in that whole fruit is different from the sugar found in some candy bars or some beverages, like high fructose corn syrup found in sodas and stuff like that. They’re completely different. Again, something happens when it comes to research on fructose. Fructose, based on research, has terrible outcomes. When you’re eating it in the form of pastries, high-fructose corn syrup, and stuff like that, the fructose that’s found in a whole banana or a whole mango comes in a package. That package includes vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, phytochemicals, fiber, and water—lots of fiber, lots of water. That’s a difference. If you want to be able to enjoy fruit and see that you have excellent blood glucose readings after a meal that includes fruit or a snack that includes fruit, the key is to understand how much dietary fat you are consuming and how much-saturated fat you are consuming. Those are the two biggest culprits when it comes to not allowing people to eat fruit because they are insulin-resistant. At Mass and Diabetes, we teach people to keep their fat intake under 15% of total calories. Another way to look at that would be to not go over 30 grams per day. That’ll work for most people.

The only way to figure that out is through food logging software. You’re not going to be able to calculate and know how much you’re consuming without the software because every whole food contains fat. Not only does every whole food contain fat, but it also contains essential fatty acids in small quantities, and they’re added up throughout the day. You can reach a significant amount of your essential fatty acid intake. We recommend some ground-up flaxseeds and ground-up chia seeds to ensure that you meet your essential fatty acid requirements, especially on the omega-3 side. It comes down to decreasing your fat intake. When you start to add fruit back into your lifestyle as you’re becoming more insulin-sensitive, don’t expect this change to happen overnight.  You’re going to make sure to take some time to decrease your fat intake, slowly increase your carbohydrate intake, and make sure that you’re having whole fruit, moving your body, and eating at a reasonable pace. I don’t care if you’re insulin sensitive or not; you could be super insulin sensitive, but if you try and eat two mangoes in like two minutes, that’s a lot for anybody’s body to handle.

Enjoy the fruit. Take your time and mix it with greens and non-starchy vegetables. That’s a huge tip that we work with, with our clients, especially when you’re working your way out of an insulin resistance state that that element of greens in non-starchy vegetables can help stabilize your blood glucose and you still get to enjoy those amazing fruits, and the same thing when it comes to, let’s say, fruit like grapes. When you look at the glycemic index, there’s only one or two fruits that are even on the very cusp of high, like the right between medium and high. It’s like watermelon, I think pineapple, and maybe another I can’t remember exactly, but even grapes, like if you put grapes in a salad, so you get some spinach, some arugula, some grapes, some mangoes, some scallions, and maybe throw some chickpeas on there if you want to, or if it’s just a fruit salad. For me, I would eat this. An actual salad. I read grapes, spinach, arugula, mango, white onion, scallion, some blueberries, some strawberries, and some tomatoes. I’d say I had nine ingredients in that salad, so it’s a pretty good mixture. so the grapes in the context of that entire meal are not. That’s a beautiful salad with a lot of other ingredients.

The issue with the glycemic index is that, first off, we don’t usually eat foods individually. When you combine the foods, it changes how your blood glucose is going to interact. I want people to know if there are certain foods that you love. I just miss having those foods. We like teaching people how to get them back into their lives. putting grapes in a salad is something we love to have people do. There are so many varieties of grapes. I just love them, and I hope people don’t remove them from their diets because they’re insulin-resistant.

Beverly Yates, ND

I think that the points you make here are so helpful because you’re laying them out and making them specific, and we’re meeting people where they’re at. Often, it’s an issue of not only necessarily missing a taste or even cravings, but it could also be an issue where maybe there’s a cultural relationship to that food, a familial, or even a social-emotional relationship to that food. It could be that it’s about portions. One of the things I’ve noticed with highly refined, ultra-processed foods is that portion control is usually strong right out the window. Bill, too, is designed to be overconsumed. It’s a disaster. But when you’re eating something, that’s whole food—real, actual food—no chemicals. It’s food nutrient-dense. It’s got all of the goodness in it. People don’t overeat. They also don’t crave. Part of that balance, that relationship, that I think happens with fruit is that some of us, particularly as kids, maybe we’re used to eating fruit in a can with some syrup or whatever, which was not fruit. our relationship with it has been so skewed. If we’re going to reclaim a healthy relationship with food and healthy blood sugar, we have to be able to enjoy all of nature’s bounty. we need to have fruit—actual fruit, like I like to say, with fruit, with the skin on. like no peaches or things that are peeled from their skin. The actual peach, 

Robby Barbaro, MPH

I love that. I love what you’re saying 100%. 

Beverly Yates, ND

We’ve been set up to fail, and we’ve got to reclaim what I feel is everyone’s birthright, which is to be healthy. But we have to be smart. We have to be savvy consumers because there’s a massive amount of marketing and wild chemicals added to these other foods.  If you look at the labels, I remember as a kid, food used to say things like it had, let’s say, flour and it had oil. It’s butter or something like that. It was completely pronounceable. You understood what the oil was. It had salt; it had sugar, and that’s all right. It had, like, four or five ingredients. Now there are 20 ingredients. It’s all chemicals—lots of hyphens and dashes. You’re like, What in the hell is that? It’s a mess. Maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that there’s been such a rise in the incidence of Type 2 diabetes pre-diabetes happening at younger and younger ages. We’re also seeing an increase in Type 1 and much older ages. It’s just been crazy to watch this.

Robby Barbaro, MPH

It’s so true. We are seeing these increases, and it’s sad. There are things we can do. You’re exactly right. These ingredients, which we can’t understand or pronounce, are unnecessary. There are options for wildly delicious meals that can be prepared fast and easily. 2024 is one of the greatest times to be alive and to be doing a plant-based diet conveniently. We are not against canned and packaged foods. It’s about what’s in those cans. You can just get clean, simple, and beautiful beans and chickpeas in a can. You can get pre-cleaned arugula in a bag. You can get pre-cooked greens that come in a bag that you just have to heat up. There are so many amazing convenience items to make it happen. But these are whole-natural foods prepared in a way to accommodates your lifestyle; put the right combinations and sauces on top, and you can succeed, and it can be wholesome, delicious, and natural.

Beverly Yates, ND

It can look beautiful, too. Can have a feel for your eye as well as your tongue. I agree. I always say, when eating, please don’t suffer. Let’s make sure our food is flavorful and rich and is going to affirm our lives. Our health span equals our lifespan, and that causes us to die early and horribly. Now, just thinking about where our conversation will need to go before we wrap up, another thing that comes up is where people go I’m all in. I want to follow a plant-based diet. I understand the benefits of my blood sugar control. that if I want good glycemic regulation, I need to have something like a bridge strategy. How do I get started? If someone wants to get started with eating a low-fat diet, if their blood sugar begins to spike when they eat high-carb foods, let’s say fruits, what is the pace? Because people get scared, as you talk about, if they start to see these spikes that are natural, physiologic things, but they don’t know how to interpret that data.

Robby Barbaro, MPH

I love this question. It’s something I talk about all the time, and I do a lot of live webinars, and I have a section where I call it mastering the transition. This is exactly what you’re asking. Number one is to realize that you are going through a transition.   You are making lifestyle changes to solve a problem once and for all if you’re going to solve this problem permanently. so there are some bumps along the way. Don’t get too stressed when you see a little bit of a higher reading. Know that this is just a transition phase. That’s number one. Understand that. Number two is that we help people make changes slowly and steadily. We think if you make too many lifestyle changes at once, it becomes overwhelming. It doesn’t even last. Our book and our coaching program are all designed to change one meal at a time. As you’re changing these meals, we are having you incorporate a significant amount of greens and non-starchy vegetables into every single meal. We are encouraging people to incorporate more walking—as much walking as you can do if you’re living with diabetes.

The ideal time to walk is after a meal. That would be the best it could be. It does not need to be rigorous. It could be just a couple of minutes. It could be up and down the stairs in your house. It could be a loop around your house. Something is better than nothing. We’re eating, and we’re making changes. Slowly, we’re adding green and non-starchy vegetables. We’re walking. Again, you’re trying to eat at a reasonable pace. If you do these things and consistently keep your fat intake low, that is the most important part. If you can avoid the blips of, one day I went, and I just couldn’t help myself. I had to go have an entire bag of nuts, and I had two avocados like that. That blip is right there. You’re going to have some consequences for several days after, at least. if we can consistently keep the diet low in fat, under 15% of total calories—we are going to consistently see our insulin sensitivity increasing, and we’re going to soon enough get that experience of, I just ate a whole mango. I loved every bite. It was juicy and delicious, and my blood glucose profile was natural and normal, and I feel good about it. It just takes a little bit of time. It could take days; it could take weeks, but you will get there slowly and steadily. That’s what wins the race.

Beverly Yates, ND

I love the message here, Robby; that was great. friends, wine, and back, if you need to rehearse that slow and steady wins the race. You didn’t get into trouble overnight, and you’re not going to get out overnight. You can get out quickly. then, over weeks and months, doable. That’s not crazy at all. On the other side of it, to expect that within 24 hours all problems will be solved is not realistic.

Robby Barbaro, MPH

Well said.

Beverly Yates, ND

Robby, are there any final words you’d like to share with us before we end our interview?

Robby Barbaro, MPH

I just want to encourage people to take action, whatever it is. Don’t overwork yourself. There’s a lot of information, and a lot of people are saying different things. Just pick what resonates with you and start taking action. You will never regret that day when you move your body and eat that healthy salad. Start making steps in the right direction, and know that it will pay off in the long term. Have a lot of compassion and self-love along the journey, and you will achieve your goals.

Beverly Yates, ND

Fantastic. Thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest here at the Reversing Type 2 Diabetes Summit. Friends, please be kind to yourself. Remember, you’re with yourself 24/7. Learn to be your best friend and your best advocate. If you get discouraged, if you get off track, or if life is unkind, that’s when things happen. Just pick yourself back up, get your community around you, and join us on this journey. We can turn these trends around, but we’re going to need to be mindful of them. Thank you, everyone, for your time and attention.