It’s Not Your Fault: You Were Never The Problem

Intro and podcast welcome 0:00

In the inner voice. A heartfelt chat with Doctor Fujino were put together or psychologically structured, and what has been discovered is that, we are relational beings and everything that exists, has that option, has that option of existing because they are in relationship with something else. So, and if you wish to just bring it down to, a very sort of numerical level, you'd say that one's genetic background, those things that, one has with them or brings with them at birth, or immediately upon being conceived, a relationship begins with their outside world, whether through feeling or through some sort of perception, until they are born.

And then all five of our sensory paths are open and we begin to relate. And it's through that relational process that we're introducing a powerful new update from the fusion app. Now with flexible subscription plans to fit your journey monthly, quarterly

Doctor Follansbee's theory origins 1:35

or yearly, our new AI driven onboarding customizes your path to feeling better, faster, and enjoy a refreshed experience with stunning 3D interactive videos. Update now empower your inner voice with fusion download today. Welcome to The Inner Voice, a heartfelt chat podcast. I'm your host doctor for Genzyme. I'm a psychotherapist and author and the founder of the International Awareness Integration Institute. Today I will be talking to doctor Roger Follansbee. He has, his degree in philosophy and clinical psychology from the Universidad de Navarra, from Pamplona, Spain.

He has developed structured psychology theory and is the author of It's Not Your Fault book that we're going to be actually talking about. I really loved our conversation from someone who's created a theory to another person who's created the theory, and looking at the concept of how human beings exist in relationships. So I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. And, that the book It's not your fault. It's a blue book on Amazon. So I really, want you to really get into the conversation and see how it relates to you.

And then also be sure to subscribe to this podcast, my YouTube channel, and, connect with me through my website for valentine.com fraud and Z eye and e.com for any of my social media platforms. Share your thoughts with me. I love, love, love, love to hear from you and hear your comments. Now without further ado, here's Doctor Rogers Follansbee. Listen up. If you want to promote your personal growth and self awareness. I found the Fujian app last month and I have been absolutely loving it. I personally have never learned guided meditation, but thanks to this app I now have learned incredible tools for my own stress relief and emotional self awareness.

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What are your copy on Amazon now? I'm so excited to be speaking with you, Doctor Rogers Follansbee. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Wonderful to be here. I know we're going to be talking about your book. It's not your fault. But more than that, I like to really, talk to you about the psychology theory that you've created around structured psychology. And, the main points on the is about how to be related. And I know that you've you've worked, almost 40 years on this, theory. To establish a can you share your path to creating this type of structured psychology theory?

Well, initially, I wasn't destined to create any theory at all. This happened years ago, back in the 70s. Of what? Now it's become in the last century. It sounds bloody awful, but it sounds like a long time ago.

Projection and relational psychology 5:30

And then it wasn't that long ago. But, I was at that time, set up to write a doctor's thesis on projection. And when I did that, it it took me some time to realize that nobody had been able to explain. They could describe, but they couldn't explain what this phenomenon was. And it was a very real phenomena we project all the time. We we, seem to, exterior eyes are, our feelings and our thoughts and our desires and our fears, outside of ourselves. And I just, I just couldn't find a proper academic reason or some kind of support out there that would, correctly explain this phenomena.

And that is what prompted, my need to go all the way back to zero and start from from nothing and try to find a way of explaining this particular human phenomena. And it it turned me into a theorist in the end. Beautiful job. I remember taking the, I took a certification course out of Harvard and the evolution evolutionary psychology I recall when correct me, if, that doesn't fit for you. Was that as a human being, we had to be able to read. Read, let's say read the room. If another, animal showed up in our tribe, or if there was another human being showed up, we kind of had to figure out whether this person or this animal was danger to us or not.

We were going to be safe. So, the reading of the facial or body language of others, was a form of survival. But then they took on another concept, which, you know, the theory of the mind, where at one point we actually do project everything unto others. This is kind of what I recall. And, can you share a little bit about your perspective on projection as you've done all of your research and studies? Well, I think from the very beginning, classical psychology is full of demonstrations and, sort of examples of what we call projection.

And the, the classical view has continued to be classical. It hasn't changed, and it hasn't changed until now, when we're able to truly understand where this all comes from. But yes, all all of those observations have been made. And the way we interpret those things that we relate to and why we interpret them, the way we do, in conventional classical psychology is full of, examples of exactly that. Just what you mentioned. What there is not is an explanation for them. They give us what they call a false or what I call a false explanation by saying, well, well, that's because we project, we see George as being menacing because we're projecting an image that we have inside ourselves to protect ourselves.

We see that George is menacing and we defend ourselves. We defend ourselves from George by knowing, by projecting, in the world outside and in George himself, who is outside of me, the, the, the fears that I have and the concerns that I have. But that doesn't really explain anything that doesn't tell anyone or, any, any interested party why it is that I see George as menacing, for example, or an animal as menacing or a situation as a threat. And that that is why a theory like this was necessary in the first place.

So please share with us, from your perspective, why is it that we do? Well, to answer your question, what would your question specifically be? What, how would you frame that? Well, you, as I went through the concepts of your book, is you really, look at and, we don't exist, and we're kind of in relations. Right? So our existence is based on relations and part of, part of the way that we relate, has to somehow create this, essence of, you know, projection. But tell us, what is it? Because you're saying that projection was one of the key concept of your theory, and the explanation of that was very important.

And I know that you look at it from a relational context. What is it that you're bringing to the world of psychology as far as explanation of how does projection play a role in our relatedness, or how does relatedness create, who we are, our identity and our existence? Or initially the, I guess, the most important, thing I could say. And, and with regard to what your, your question is about is the, the way we're put together or psychologically structured and what has been discovered is that, we are relational beings and everything that exists, has that option, has that option of existing because they are in relationship with something else.

So, and, if you wish to just bring it down to a, a very sort of numerical level, you'd say that one's genetic background, those things that, one has with them or brings with them at birth, or immediately upon being conceived, a relationship begins with their outside world, whether through feeling or through some sort of perception, until they are born. And then all five of our sensory paths are open and we begin to relate. And it's through that relational process that we're able to live at all. And if we understand that, we understand that, nothing can exist alone.

Structure, free will, and choice 12:40

And when we understand that nothing can exist alone, we double down on our understanding of our relational requirement for existence. So if that's true, evidently anything that I relate to is part of me. That is to say, anything you relate to your surroundings, your friends, those that you've had some sort of relational contact some time in your life are very much a part of you. So when you perceive something as being exterior to you and yet very much a part of you, sometimes you can interpret that as you projecting something outside of yourself, when in reality what's happening is you're simply perceiving something that you've already been in relationship with.

It is a necessary process, a life and death option for you to relate to your world. And without that relationship, you simply cannot exist. So as I going back to the sentence you just shared, where if I see you outside of me, I'm perceiving you as an experience that I've already experienced. Share what that means. Well, it isn't as though you had already experienced it when? When you have a new experience, for example, you see something that's new. An object, any object. Let's make the object impersonal and not adamant.

That's the first time you really did that object. So you try to assimilate as best you can with all the knowledge that you have, what this object is, and so on and so forth. But once you've related to the object, that object becomes part of you. Yeah. You're not just one singular genetic force. You are a genetic force in relationship to your outside world. Everything that you've already related to and everything that you relate to now and in the future will become part of who you are. You are. If you cannot be in relationship with something else, you cannot be.

Period. That I totally agree. Yes. Okay. And I do get that even with the latest neuroscience concept that that when we see something new that we have to relate, we, we kind of related in order to recognize that we do related to the past information that we've had, whether it was in information or experience. So any information and experience inside of me has become part of me. As I hear you. It has become part of me. And anything new. In order to recognize it, I have to attach it or make it similar to or recognized by making it familiar because it because of something inside of me has some sort of an experience with something or the information.

So then I project that information to it. Right. So for example, if I take for the first time I see something, you know, like this, I my brain if has never seen a glasses before, then it's going to say, oh is that glass okay then I've known something about a glass. Then I will related to a glass. Or if it's, glasses, that eyeglasses. Then if I've seen it before, I'll say, oh, that's my glasses then that's useful. And anything partly new about it. Then it becomes again part of my information and experience.

And because it became part of me, that information became part of me. Then it will kind of always be the way that I would. These informations adds to, how I expand myself with the relatedness to the world and kind of hearing what you're saying and interpreting it for myself. Did I get that accurate? Yes. All the experiences that you've had are relational experiences. That is to say that who you are as a genetic being has related to some thing or someone, and that experience has been, sort of the end result of you relating as best you can that experience to all the other experiences that you've had.

Now, to say that what you're viewing or experiencing in that case, is reality. That's a stretch that philosophers would have a hard time accepting and so would some psychologists. But what you have done is you've been able to relate to that object as best you can. And the minute you've done that, that object has become part of you. So when you see someone who seems knowledgeable, that knowledge has come from experience. How much experience has that person had? While that person has studied? Or that person has been actively, engaged in relating to the world around them in an academic way?

And so they have learned things and they are more prepared to understand and connect the things that they have related to before with the things that they're relating to now. So yes, absolutely. It's as you grow, you grow more and the more you grow, the more you can grow still. So it's that's all part of our relational beings. So you called your your theory first a relational theory and then you changed it to a structural theory. Can you share what what the structure now, how to structure relate to your theory?

Well, it was I'd say that the structure itself just helps people understand what the theories about. So the first thing we discover about the, the, the theory itself is the way human beings, all of us, connect or exist as best we can. And that requires a relational, experience to take place. So when we talk about structure, the first thing we, we sort of realize is that indeed we are structurally attached to all relations. And, that underlines the need for relationships to take place if anything is to exist at all.

So that's the first part of the structure is to recognize that we are relational beings. The second thing that we discover is that there is a requirement for continuance. That is to say, we find it, vital for us to continue being who we are. That is to say it, it would seem almost philosophically, if required, that we do, because if we didn't, we couldn't exist anyway. So as you can see, there is an innate or, a basic requirement for continuation of our existence at the same time. And that is the second element of the structure.

And the third is that we need as living, breathing human beings, a confirmation of that process, the fact that we are relational beings and that we continue being relational beings with what? With what final destiny or with what objectivity and that objectivity is our relationship with the object world around us. So those three things form the structure. The fact that we are relational, continuing and confirming that happens in every single living thing that exists. And very especially and far more complicatedly that isn't English.

But do you understand what I mean? It, forms the idea of what the human being is, that is the human being, and that is the structure that we all live by. You chose to put the name of your book. It's not your fault. What is that, have to do? How come you chose not your fault? Is it? Because, we're part of the relation relationships that we create and then this give and take, this given or receive, of information and relatedness of an existence is just being formed, without being conscious around it.

Or is it a consciousness around this type of a relationship? Do I, do I only, react in these relationships of how it's coming and I just observe and who I am as a reaction to relationships, although they're part of they become part of me. Or is there a conscious level of, the thought emotions, behaviors that creates these relationships as I own them to be part of me? Well, I think the most important part of understanding why the book is titled It's Not Your Fault, is understanding that all of us behave according to a pre-set structure.

That is to say, we don't really have the option of behaving in any other way. Thinking, constructing, behaving, whatever it is we think or do is always in accordance with the way we are structured. Each one of us is put together now because we all have different genetic backgrounds and we all have different relational environments. We are, each one of us is different. So no matter what we do or think or say or feel, that content will be different content from the content of anyone else. But it is content that is in direct relationship with the way that we are structured.

That is to say, we don't really have the, the, the option if you wish to behave in any other way than the way that the structure demands that we behave. If we react in a certain way to something, it's because of our genetic background and the content of that thing that we're in relationship with. We can only behave that way. We don't have a choice. That is why the title of the book is it's not your fault. You are simply obeying the structure you have the option of choosing what way you would like to behave if you wish, but it is always due to the fact that you are structured in the way you're structured, that you do behave the way you do.

So as the neuroscientist are very confirming about, you don't have free will and you're sharing the same thing. There is no free will that the structure is the structure was a combination, and that structure came through as a combination of the genetic factor, the the environment. You were living. And that created the structure in relationship with all that you was between you and your environment at that moment.

Healing, environment, and practical change 25:00

And since that coding has been done in that structure, then from here on, the basic choices you have are still very basic within the structure. There isn't anything beyond the structure that you are exactly. Your mention of free will, for example, which I think is very helpful and will be helpful for you for your view viewers. No. Of course, when you understand what free will pretends to be or tries to be, I like the word pretends. I like that. Well, there's not a lot of respect, on this side of the room for that particular concept, but it is an interesting one, and it is one that religion has used throughout the centuries, as one of the concepts that they use to understand human beings.

But if you understand, there's there's also, a concept that you should keep in mind when talking about, will, the desire to do something or the fear that 1st May feel about something else. There is always and has to be always a determining factor. That is to say that every choice that we have, we can make only because of the experience, the relational experience that we've had, along with the genetic point of departure that those experiences share with the genetic background that we have. So whatever it is that we choose is, promoted or, stimulated by past experience and genetic properties.

There is no freedom in that. They are predetermined, although you'll find that each individual will have his or her own options for choosing A or B. That's because of the immense complexity of each one of us and our determined, likes and dislikes and fears and happiness. And Lord knows. But they're all decided upon the fact that we are who we are through the relational experiences that we've had. But we always need something that will determine our choices. Well, there's a lot that's happening in my head, but I still want to learn about your, your theory.

Because I do agree, with the concept that, you know, there isn't a very, free reign about whatever. Like, I don't I cannot choose to be a dog right now. That's not like my free will does not allow that. Right. I cannot, will to change my eye color from hazel green to blue. I can get, you know, a synthetic, contact that is blue and pretend that my eyes are blue, but I can't just. Will it that my eyes are going to turn blue. So, yes, I get that. There's also this other piece, which is, That when we have an experience, such as if I was born into, a mother who was depressed or a father who was, you know, an addict.

And I went through my traumas and I was very depressed and, you know, traumatized for many years and all of those. But when there was an experience filled with love, when there was an experience of me going to psychotherapy and experiencing this acceptance, these new experiences, which happened in relationships, definitely in relationships, as the experience came, there was a choice to say yes. Now I choose this peace. I choose to love. I choose to heal. I choose to look at the world from this angle versus the ones that I had.

I chose, you know, to shift in my thought process. So finally, that the kind of like even the, let's say, a chronic chemical depression that was there due to the circumstances change to where I can have, you know, feeling of happiness and bliss more often that, you know, sadness. So the change can happen with the choices, which kind of happen with the experiences that we have in relationships. And then because we have a more pleasurable experience, that works for us, then we can choose the next levels.

So yes, there's predetermined based on what is. But within these experiences that we get, we have those choices, limited choices, but still choices that are in front of us that we move. Is that yep. I understand what you're saying, and I think that one has to make a, find a difference between what choices are and what free choices are. The free, the concept of, of having a free choice is as though you had no determining factors whatsoever, that is to say, nothing that would push you in one direction or the other when you made the choice.

If you want to change your eyes from hazel green to blue. First of all, it'd be interesting to find out what the reason might be that you'd want to do that, but your choice of using, for example, a contact lens that was blue instead of hazel green was determined by all kinds of factors. Perhaps you met someone that you thought was intriguing, that had blue eyes, or that you were fascinated by an actor, a cinema finger that had blue eyes? You could go on and on and on finding the reasons why you wanted in the first place to have blue eyes instead of hazel green.

So there are factors and determining factors that will push you, or leaning towards the choice that you're making of putting in contacts that are blue. That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about free choice. So choices. We have many, many choices. All of us have it. But when someone says that was a bad choice you made, well, perhaps it was according to that person, but they have no idea what determining factors pushed you or me or whoever it may be, to make the choice they made. So accepting and knowing these concepts of factors, which are there, which, you know, they're part of.

But my structure let's say, as I was created and coming into this world and the relations that showed up in front of me, whether I, you know, I determined and created them or they showed up in front of me, which I chose them, and related to them. Then this structure moves me forward. And, what now? Is it more the awareness of it, that awareness that I don't have, you know, I can have compassion toward myself, so I don't fault myself, you know, especially the name of this is not your fault, okay?

I don't fault myself. I don't damn myself. I look at what I do and the awareness and the acceptance and the compassion of what I do. How does that affect my life? How does this theory. It's a psychological theory. How does that, in any format, useful. My my my point is that this is me. That always somehow has to be useful in my life, which is like, okay, from from my structure, from my pre programing. I'm asking you, how is this useful? How do we create this to be useful. Exactly. And that that is something that I think we all value, tremendously is to, pragmatism as best we can, whatever it is that we're spending our time on.

And, is this any good? Was is can I use this to make any sense? So the question is a very good question. And and let me answer it in this way. A an enormous, an incalculable amount of anxiety comes from the lack of knowledge, that is to say, we fear of things. We feel trepidation towards things. We hesitate about things, the choices that we make, places that we want to breach. Simply because we don't understand, we don't know enough to give us those determining factors that are required in making that choice.

And the fact that we are very conscious of of our, foibles. And, shortcomings creates a level of anxiety that is annoying. It's uncomfortable, it's unpleasant. It's fearful. It's it's not something that we embrace. It's something we want to invade. So understanding the way that we are structured psychologically removes a very large proportion of that ignorance. Let's just call it what it is. It's ignorance. It's simply that we don't know the answers to all those questions. But when we do, when we understand the way we are structured and you're structured and our best friends are structured, we can begin to understand why they did what they did, why they behave the way they behave, why they reacted this way or that way, why I feel fear about going to a special meeting or whoever I happen to be in relationship with may be under stress, but why?

Having the answers to those questions relieves tremendously the amount of anxiety that we feel, and understanding that anxiety is what later leads into more serious psychological problems. You'll understand the value of understanding the value of having the knowledge of how we are. Piece together structured, and how it can help you go on in life in a much, a much more pleasant and positive way. Everyone get this book. It's not your fault I, Doctor Rogers. Follansbee. Put an, There's something that shows up for me, which is.

And I'm sure you've worked with this clients. I've worked a lot with clients where? They look, how I have been, how I have structured. But they have a negative slant on it. And it's as if, like, okay, these were the cards that were dealt for me. I was born into the genetics of this type of a family with these type of illnesses, with this type of trauma, with these types of, you know, upbringing. And I'm doomed because obviously the structure is that and I'm doomed. And, And then it's almost because I can only operate from this structure and this is it.

I can understand where it showed up. But some people go like, it's not fair. How come it was me that got this? And, you know, the neighbor got the better one. I didn't have, you know, and then they, they go into this doom and gloom space of depression because it becomes this like hopelessness about the future and the hopelessness of about, you know, anything changing. And, and the depression really sets in from and then, you know, again, not fair. And, and there's nothing that I can make it to be fair, like world is this, my life is this.

And, they just sit with that resentment. How does structural psychology support, that person? Well, that's a, another good question. And I think you've painted that picture quite accurately. I think many of us, feel as though we are in situations that are not fair situations, and we get the short end of the stick. Yeah, we got the short end of the stick. Exactly. And why what, what rules are out there that have made us this way? And, don't I have a choice? Can I say I don't want this anymore? And, well, we find out very quickly that.

No, we don't have a choice. We are who we are at birth and have done our best in making ourselves who we are today and the society that we were born in. But there's one factor that you have to keep in mind, and that is go back once again to Ground Zero and realize how we're structured. Since we're structured relationally, we understand that half of who we are depends on the environment that we are in, the environment that we relate to, the people that form a part of that environment, and the things that form a part of that environment.

And we do have an option. There is an option out there. What if we changed our environment? We know we can't change our parents, our sisters, our brothers, our uncles, our cousins, but we can change the world around us. So we do have some choice. We do have some freedom, and that freedom lives in the object world. That's for us, each one of us. We can change that world. We can go somewhere else, and that won't change who we are genetically, or it won't change the parents that we have. But it does change a substantial amount of the people that we will become, the people that we are in the case that we are at the present time, or where we want to go or what we want to do, and that will change radically what our future looks like.

So there is a there is an element to your theory which is active. It's not just looks at things from, passive place. An acceptance of it is what it is. But there's also this activation. Yes.

Closing remarks and where to find the book 40:50

First, first you got to get the this is it. And then when you're aware, this is it and that it's okay that this is it and it's not your fault. You haven't done anything wrong for this to be. This is it that this is it. And now you can also explore within your environment, within what is what are some of the next choices that you want to make? If this is if what is is not something that you're like. Exactly. You have an option. You have possibilities, you have different futures that you can choose.

And that all depends on where you are and who you relate to and where you relate to those people that you relate to that can all change to can change radically. Change cities, change towns, change countries, rather new language deal with different people, with different ideas and different values that will change you radically and allow you to be the person that you are. Because if you are struggling with your genetic background, that's fix. That's not going anywhere in a certain environment. Evidently that was the wrong environment for you.

You're struggling. Go to a place where you don't have to struggle. Go to a place that will understand who you are and that option you have. You can choose as best as you can. It depends on finances. It depends on all kinds of different factors. But there is a choice. And if you have the option of changing your environment, that object world that surrounds you and makes you who you are, remember your relation to being. Do it. It may. It may be a string. It may be daring. There may be threats out there.

But if your present environment is not one you're getting along with and creating stress and creating doom in your life, change it. One minute or so, is there anything we haven't shared that you really want people to know? Well, I think the most important thing is understanding who we are. And as simple as it may appear that we are a genetic entity that is in relationship with the world around them, that genetic entity is incredibly complex, as is the world around us. And understanding, therefore, that the options that we have in life are tremendous.

There's no end to them. So it is not a bleak, free structure world out there. We have options. And I think that if very everyone understands that the first step is knowing and accepting the way all of us are structured or put together psychologically, we'll understand that there is a beautiful world out there that we can take advantage of, and that is an option that will always have. And I think, going back to the first conversation, that when we accept our structure, then it also allows us to accept other people's structure because that's that also helps with the projection concept, because of understanding that each person comes with their own structure and that whatever their behaving is through that lens, you can still choose to have them in your environment or not, but at least it gives another level of possibly, you know, understanding and a compassion for whomever is which is behaving however they are.

And then yet we get to choose whether we want them in our environment and we want to relate to them or not. Well, I think that, I'm glad you brought that up, and I know you're trying to close down, but, it's, it's fascinating to see that, and to understand that, comprehending others and what others do, the things they do say, the things they say, that's a vital part of all of this at the same time. We can't figure out why Gerry yelled at me, or Sally wouldn't go to the cinema or wouldn't, something that has annoyed us.

Why have they done that? If we understand the way we're structured, that will help us enormously understand all those mysteries out there that we never could figure out before. Beautiful. How could people find you? Yes. Well, the best thing to do is there is a, internet site that you can go to, which is structured psychology.com that that contains everything. There is all the information you need to also interact with what you're reading and the book. I think it would be always a positive thing, to if the book is short, you can read it in an afternoon.

But it does help enormously to understand the person you are and the options you have in life. So Amazon has that book. So if you just go to Amazon and put in, it's not your fault remembering that blue cover, because there are other books that have that same title. It's not your fault with the blue cover, that I think you'll find to be very, very interesting. An enormous help in understanding who you are was a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. So it was a pleasure being here. Thank you very much.

Yes. It was a beautiful, conversation, to look at. I've, I've developed a psychology theory. It's called awareness integration. And it is very relational that we deal with each and every relationship that the person has and kind of look at the, you know, become aware and then integrate whatever you know about it. So, it was a pleasure to have a conversation, from someone who creates a theory to another person's creative theory and look at the specifics of how you've come to that space from where you have come to that space, how is it that you're looking at the world and and the basic structure is in how to intervene and move forward, accepting that and moving forward.

And as I say, you know, my brain always works is how is this useful every day I use this in an every day. And so, yeah, you're, are we all here? No, no, no, we're still on. Oh. That's great. Yeah. Because I was I was just going to say that that, it's a joy to work with someone who has some real interests and understanding who they are and where they're going and why. I think the why part is the most interesting of all. So, read the book and I think, I think it'd be fascinated by it. Absolutely, absolutely.

Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and everyone who's listening and viewing us. Thank you very much. And for all of you who are out there, if you liked what we talked about, share it with everybody else and put your, you know, comments on the YouTube or the, or, any of the social media or the podcast for us. And any message that you have to relate to Doctor Rogers. Follansbee. I will share with him and create an amazing life for yourself and everyone around you. And until next week, Abi, are you a psychotherapist looking to enhance your practice to awareness?

Integration therapy, developed by Doctor Zane, is a comprehensive guide to the principle and techniques of this powerful therapeutic approach. Join the growing community who have elevated their practice and expanded their skills by embracing awareness, integration, therapy and witnessing its life changing impact for you. You can't be on Amazon now.