Mold’s Hidden Impact: The Gut, Liver, And Gallbladder Connection

Introduction to Mold and Liver Damage 0:00

This is the weird part about mold. So it's so good at shutting down bio flow and shutting down liver efficiency. It is immune suppressive and it's highly inflammatory to the liver. Really everybody has the potential for liver damage from mycotoxins because they increase those inflammatory cytokines for sure. And you get this chronic inflammatory response and you can easily get like fibrosis, necrosis. You can get cysts in the liver. This is Dr. Talks. Welcome to Mold Microtoxin and Chronic Illness Summit.

I'm your host, Dr. Anne Shiffey. And next we get to speak with Sinclair Canale. She is a certified clinical nutritionist and she's the co-founder of Detox Rejuvenation. I'm so excited to share her information with you as she is such an expert in the important parts of detoxification to really help you heal. Thank you so much for joining me. I know you've got a lot on your plate right now. Oh, I'm thrilled to be here. You know that. I love you. I love this topic. I love this audience. This is just such a joy and a passion for me.

I'm having this little debate whether we start out with how you got to be an expert in detoxifying or whether we start out with what's going on now. And I think I kind of want to start with what's going on now.

Storm Damage and Immediate Mold Response 1:22

So you live on the west coast and you just got hit by a hurricane. So let's talk about You've been totally through the mold issue, recovered, and now you are dealing with water damage. So what's going through your mind? How are you approaching this? Yeah, so there's a lot. This is probably the... It's making me nervous hearing about it, honestly. We're going to be okay. Well, what I love is you're being so proactive. Yeah, when you know what to do, it's not as scary, you know? And this is, I realized, our fifth house in my lifetime that I know for sure where mold has been a contributing factor and, you know, that it's definitely present and it's absolutely affecting our health.

So the hurricane happened just days ago and it was, you know, really downgraded to a tropical storm by the time I got here. And this is a brand new home and it certainly reveals with that amount of water where the imperfections are, shall we say. Kind of like a cardiac stress test, right? We put people on the treadmill and watch their EKG to see if there's anything going on. So same kind of thing with these heavy duty storms. If you look closely, you can find out where the defects are. Yeah, exactly.

You know, I think one of the biggest issues about mold is actually learning to take it seriously enough. And because mold illness can come on so slowly for people, it's very difficult to recognize in yourself or even in someone else that you're living with. And of course, one of the most painful things about mold illness is that Five people can be living on the same, like a whole family, similar genes, can be living in the same building. And all five have different mold presentation symptoms, but because they don't look the same.

I've never seen the same scenario in family members ever. It's always a different collection of symptoms every single time. Yes, yes. And so what they don't realize is not only the wide range of symptoms that mold and mycotoxic illness can present, but you don't have to have all of them. You could have very, very different profiles. So I think the biggest, the most damaging thing about it is how long it takes people to take it seriously. And then by then how entrenched it is in your home and also in your body.

So everything becomes about, oh my gosh, trying to find the energy and the creativity to problem solve this on the outside as well as the inside. And how do you heal without crashing once it's already set up shop? Your immune system's already been compromised. Your mitochondria are fully in cell danger response mode, so you're under producing energy. It's compromised your liver and your bile flow. It's elbowed other helpful organisms out of the way in the bodies. The microbiome has definitely shifted, right?

Mold's job is to snack on our tissues, to break them down. They decompose things. That's what mold's purpose on the planet is. problem on the planet if we didn't have them, we need them to decompose, but we just don't want them in our bodies to be decomposing other than beneficial things that they can do. So, all right, so you've got this 18-month-old house. So a few days ago, we had the storm or the hurricane. And so we have molds. I'm going to show this on social media. I have molds just explode at the front door and down a seam of one wall.

So you can visibly see it. But you didn't have to go looking for it. It just showed up within a few days. Yeah. And so we have already lived in a home from this builder. And we had something similar happen last year that was catastrophic. We had crazy rains last year.

Sinclair Canaleu2019s Mold Illness Recovery Story 5:11

It was like a three-story leak. of just like water pouring down because something about the way they finished the siding was incorrect. So it's a little bit of Groundhog Day. But the good news is we're jumping in. We're taking action. We're involving the builder. We're involving mold mitigation specialists. I have my independent tests because I want to back this up with documentation. It's right there for everybody to see. I'm looking at it right now. And I'm really proactive. Michael and I have a lot of additional air filtration in the house right now.

And we use high-tech air reactors in addition to support and breakdown mold spores. And we're doing a ton of mitochondria support, liver support, immune support. going after it, you know, hardcore with an internal protocol just to keep us really high functioning while we solve this. And the funny thing is I'm looking at beautiful fog right off of the ocean and looking right now. So I know that the conditions outside are not ideal for this to dry out. So additional steps are going to be needed. So there's a part of me that wants to just swoop in and remove you from the house until you're let's fix.

So I know those are big decisions and a lot of times you don't have options to do that. And, and hope, you know, you've figured your body out in such a way that hopefully that the cell danger response isn't going to get ramped up and that your detox pathways keep zipping things out. So I love your confidence. Well, we'll see, you know. Yeah. We'll go get a hotel room and... Yes. Yeah. Hopefully I can mold it. So I would say it makes me, the fact that there's such a serious problem with one of the scenes, it makes me suspect all the scenes.

That's right. So part of what we're doing is doing little, opening up little sections of drywall throughout the house to test. Because I think what most people don't realize is if you can see some molds, that means there's a lot more, let's say cockroaches. Yeah. And I mean, we have in some ways very similar, you know, audiences and we've supported like whole families coming through our practice for years at a time that just refuse to believe that they were living in mold because they were living in a brand new home.

You know, I think it's especially places where they don't have to build for snow. I think they get away with a lot more in the building process. And I think, yeah, so new homes a lot of times are worse because the art of building, you know, the craftsmanship has gone away. And then, you know, pretty much recommend anybody who's building a new house, get an independent inspector. They have to be inspected usually for the city, right? Yeah. But then get an extra set of eyes because they always find something major.

Yeah. I think what everybody needs to remember is that this is a process and that you can't skip steps. And it's external problem-solving mitigation just as much as it is internal problem-solving and healing and detoxing from the mold itself and also repairing the damage that the mold has created internally. You gotta have the stamina and the energy for this and the mental clarity, and that can be sometimes the hardest thing when you mold issues, right? And so it's really one minute at a time, one hour at a time, a day at a time, and looking beyond a day a lot of times is just overwhelming.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm so happy that you're on this right away. One day at a time. So I'd love if you'd share a little bit about how you have such a compelling story, how you became such an expert in this area. Yeah, I mean, the short answer is the hard way. Kinesthetic learner, you had to learn on your body rather than reading it in books. But really, really the hard way, like you found the L, like thought you were dying. You probably were dying. Actually, yeah, I think they were. I wrote my goodbye letters to my family many times.

And for me, it was absolutely a spiritual journey of deciding whether or not to stay and fight. You know, I don't mind saying that to you. And I think it's important that we gently have these deep conversations because for one, I want people to know in the audience that it's okay to have those feelings. And then it makes sense, given the fact that you've been poisoned, your body is having a perfectly logical response to being poisoned. And with that can come very deep, very heavy feelings of depression, anxiety, losing your sense of self, and even a deeper issue of disconnection to all that is, the energy that is larger than you.

If you consider yourself atheist, you might call that energy that's larger than you nature. because we are a part of nature. Or if you're deeply spiritual, you might call it the universe or the quantum or source. Or if you're religious, you might call it God or whatever your favorite word for God is. But I think we are hardwired to be a part of something larger than ourselves. And one of the most difficult things about being poisoned with mold is that it's hard to feel those feelings of connection.

And it's much easier to feel this emotional set point of anxiety and depression and, you know, so intense. You really lose your sense of who you are. So I was in mental health first and so was Michael. And when we met, we both thought we were, you know, living our best lives, but we had actually both struggled with health throughout childhood and all that. It's just been normalized. We'd actually both already been exposed to mold. We just hadn't realized it. And I had already had a car for years that the seal was broken on the passenger door behind me.

And because I lived in Portland, Oregon, it rained a lot. And in Portland, there's very few garages. So you're parking outside most of the time, wherever you are. And so it would just, you know, fill up with water and I just, it was musty and I would kind of spray it with something, you know? And so I inhaled that for, for years before I got out of the car. And then when we moved in together, there was definitely mold in the basement. And, you know, we were in our honeymoon period, and that's when I crashed.

I was, you know, helping health and wellness entrepreneurs. I was running a busy practice, and I ended up in the hospital with what we thought was a heart attack, which, as we know, being tachycardic is such a common sign of mold poisoning, and it's so often misunderstood. And I thought I was dying. And I remember the hospitalist being excited. to admit me. And when they started running tests and things, it was like, oh, we've got a live one here. And I remember that. That's so strong. That is a very strange response to what I am going through.

OK. And I also remember scan after scan, test after test, them completely losing interest in me because nothing was obvious. There was no surgery to do. I didn't need something immediate and acute. I didn't make any sense to them. And so, you know, as the hours and days went by, I realized I was not going to get any help there. And I had checked myself out and I thought, well, I didn't even check myself out. I just walked out in my hospital account. Michael helped me out in the fucking line and I thought I was going home today.

So I wish I could say that there was like some beautiful one moment where everything changed. But I think the truth is for so many of us, that's not really the case. There are a lot of little moments that lead you to the next step and the next trial and error. And it took me eight years from there. You are persistent. That's part of why I love you. Let me die. I'm deeply, deeply loved. So I'm very, yeah, but yes, I am very stubborn. And I, you know, my impression of you and from how, you know, being around you is that it seems like you're more vibrant and feel the best you've, you know, just, you would never guess that you'd been so sick.

Yeah, I couldn't stand for more than a couple of minutes at a time. I couldn't open my hands because I had, they thought it was RA and then they was like, well, maybe it's just really bad fibromyalgia. I had to tape my fingers with popsicle sticks at night, hold them under my pillow so that I didn't wake up like this in the morning. It would take me, if I did, it would take me like eight hours to be able to unfold my hands throughout the day. And so I would drive to work with my elbows on the steering wheel instead of my hands.

I can't even believe you went to work. I know, right? Well, To do something. Yeah. I was too sick to help people anymore. So we both were. So we had to shut down our practices. And I went into product design because it was something I could do very well. And I would lay on my design table and point, move that line up, change that color a little bit. And we would do hundreds and hundreds of skews that way. Oh, wow. I know. You're so resourceful. All right. So why do you think the most important things were in you getting well?

You know, there's so many pieces to this. One of the pieces is understanding your total toxin burden because your body has been impacted in its ability to excrete the way it really wants to when you've been poisoned with mold. And so there's a little bit of just like basic math with this. Don't take in more toxins every day than your body can get out. Period. End of story. And that can feel daunting when you've been living an American lifestyle where we've really normalized really toxic hair products.

You know, I was using dry shampoo where the top ingredient was aluminum because I couldn't really wash my hair. I didn't have the energy. I didn't have the hand dexterity. So I would just kind of like puff the stuff on and then kind of go like this, you know, and so I was dumping aluminum on my brain and also patrolling him. So there's a little bit of like common sense here like, hey, maybe we don't poison ourselves while we're trying to fix being poisoned. And so it's just one choice at a time, guys.

Prioritize clean air, clean water, clean food. And clean food looks like really, really simple whole foods. Don't buy into like the crazy superfood diets where they're like, we should put 70 ingredients in this vegan bowl and it's all raw and it's going to cost your body so much energy to break all the stuff down. please go for ease with digestion because mold is so good, as we know, at disrupting digestion. So we got to be really practical. If your body's already on the back foot, how do we get nutrients in that are really gentle on the body?

Your body can actually absorb them, and that can be highly bio-individual. I'm sure Dr. Anne has lots of great advice for you on that, but loving what you're saying. I think simple is better, easy to digest, mostly cooked. Yes. Not going to be necessarily, depending on how advanced your food sensitivities are in your reactions, because mold is so good at, yes, creating licky guts, increased you know, intestinal inflammatory responses, disrupting the immune system. You could have really dysregulated relationships to food as you work your way through mold, and that is not uncommon.

In fact, that's highly common. Like, I was down to three foods for a while. Which three? Oh, it was not good. It doesn't even make sense. So I don't even want any way to get ideas about it. It's not a good idea. One was high in sulfur, but I couldn't tolerate other sulfur foods. It was very weird. Okay. So you just, you had all the things, probably the histamines, oxalates, the gluten, the dairy, the everything. Yeah. And, you know, but my mast cell, you know, issues did not look like what we understood textbook mast cell to be.

you know, until even recently. So I would look at Michael go, oh, he's the histamine guy. He's the messed up guy, not me. Cause he would have huge skin flares if he ate the wrong thing and like the histamine like overwhelm rages and like all that stuff. And that wasn't me. I just got, I called them the weepies.

How Mold Impacts Detox, Liver, and Bile Flow 17:08

I got the weepies really bad. So I know it's messy. I would do like, Oh, just a little bit of ozone therapy at home. And then I would just like, Oh my God, I would dump just tears about how sad the world was for the next two hours. It was just like, Oh, honey, but and then I'll go do a coffee and I'm like, and then it's so sweet. And we just have to take a step at a time. So just to finish that thought, many people are still encouraging people with mold illness to eat the rainbow. And I absolutely hate that because there's so many irritants, lectins, oxalate histamines that you may temporarily need to take a conscious pause from.

and just really focus on very, very basic nutrition. So I think those are two of the first steps. Less poison in every day than what you can get out. So really simplifying your lifestyle and your exposures. And really clean, very simple food that may be highly bio-individual to you for a time. And sometimes you do just have to start with two or three foods and then gradually add them in. You do. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, your body's brilliant. It never forgets how to heal. It absolutely knows how to repair itself.

So the question is, you know, what would your body like at this stage of healing? Because we're never going to outsmart the body, guys. We want to work with it instead of trying to suppress the symptoms or override the body. The body has its own strategies for identifying the issues and for excreting them, so we want to work with those, support the hemorrhoids, really understand. I love how you're making this way because it really is kind of like that and it's changing. As we're healing, the body wants different things, so really staying in tune.

not staying stuck. Okay, I really can only eat these three things. It's like listening in. I think I want to try some blueberries today or whatever it is. And being with the flow of the body's brilliance of being able to heal itself. So I love how you're describing this. Yeah, I think this is like really just common sense stuff that we forget to emphasize as practitioners because everybody wants to talk about like the HLA DR gene and like the NRFT pathways. And it's like, well, okay, but what are you going to do about it?

You know, we know everybody's super brain foggy because of the mold. So let's just like stay very, very cool. Everything works better when you lay a solid foundation. And so I'm so pleased that you're really focusing on that. Like, let's get a good foundation going here so that as we're building some of these more, you know, sciency alternatives to layering in, they land better. Yeah, that's so beautifully said, I think. Yeah, it's a great point. So it's like, you know, one of the things that really changed my life and my health trajectory was finally realizing how stuck my liver was because of the mold poisoning.

And also that because my immune system had been so suppressed for so long, I definitely did have a parasite issue. And I really wanted to be in denial about that. I was like, Michael's a parasite guy, not me. You know? So those were two really important chapters for me to deal with. There are really interesting collaborations between the two of you. It's a very kermic thing. He charges in first. He's like, I think this is a problem for both of us. And I'm like, nah, that sounds like a problem for you.

And he finally gets me to, you know, every chapter along the way gets me to do the research for myself. And it's very true, but he's, he and I are great examples of two ends of the spectrum for mold illness. So I was extremely fragile. The wind could blow wrong and I would crash. You know, we had a wonderful client, she called herself a Ferrari, you know, where the wind blows wrong and she breaks down, you know, and that was her body. That was her metaphor for what would happen to her after mold illness.

And that was definitely me at that end of the spectrum. And Michael was more like the guy who was, yes, very easily overloaded with like the mast cell, the histamine dysregulation, he had crazy parasites. Oh my God, just stuff for the textbooks. And, but at the same time, he had a really high capacity to heal. So he would learn about a new tool. And if the dose was two pills, he'd go, I wonder what this does and take the whole body, the bottle, you know, and he would just, he was willing to have short-term discomfort in order to get a clear signal from his body.

Is this helping me or is it hurting me? Is it relevant or is it not? Because he just had to problem solve and get to the end of it. Whereas I had to dip my toe in. Otherwise, the world was ending, you know. So that's how we designed all of our protocols was those two ends of the spectrum. That's beautiful. So people can identify where they are within that spectrum. Yeah. And it's fun to see our students now say like, I'm more of a Michael or I'm more of a Sinclair. There's no shame in it. Everybody gets to heal in their own way.

So realized you had parasites, got rid of those, knew your liver needed some help and that your immune system needed support. Yeah, you know, this is the weird part about mold. So it's so good at shutting down bioflow and shutting down liver efficiency. And yes, it is immune suppressive. It's highly inflammatory to the liver. So, you know, there's, yes, there's the HLA-DR gene, which can, you know, affect 25% of the population. Really everybody has the potential for liver damage from mycotoxins because they increase those inflammatory cytokines for sure.

And you get this chronic inflammatory response and you can easily get like fibrosis, necrosis, you can get cysts in the liver. But really like the most common presentation that we see is your liver labs look fine. Your liver has to be in pretty bad shape to show up on the labs that we have currently for liver. Like you've got to be practically, you know, in failure. Yes, thank you for saying that. Why does nobody still know this? So there is one marker, a GGT, that's a little bit more sensitive.

So sometimes that'll be an earlier indicator than the ALT AST. Right. Right. Yes. Thank you. Yes. And now we have it on recording for the summit. Good. Because I'm just shocked at who doesn't know that. Supposedly, you know, mycotoxin experts. Well, and it's the same thing with the kidneys. Like, we measure kidney function, but it's like, you know, flying over in an airplane and trying to figure out what's going on with the leaves on the tree. Like, we don't really have great kidney function, cystatin C is a little more sensitive, but it's still pretty end-stage damage.

Like, we just can tell you you're, you know, failing, but we can't tell, is this really optimal? Right. I think it's a beautiful way to describe that. It's a great analogy. So the problem is your practitioner, whether they're allopathic or holistic, will look at that and go, oh, your liver's really not fine. That's good news. Meanwhile, you could actually be having serious compromised function in those 2000 miles of bile ducts in your liver. And your liver is a big guy, like it's a beast. It is your master regenerative organ.

It's the largest traditional organ. The interstitium is larger, which is throughout the body now, but that's what we classify as the largest organ now. You have 13% of your body's total blood volume going through the liver at any given time. And this is just one of like, yes, it's cleaning out your blood and yes, it's helping to break down toxins into smaller metabolites and then reconstituting them for excretion through bile or through the kidney. But the truth is the liver has 500 jobs in the body.

It's often performing over 200 of those at one time. It was a busy, busy Harlow worker for you. And a lot of those jobs determine how much are you able to absorb of your proteins effectively and can you use them and break them down efficiently? How are you absorbing your sugars? How good are you at emulsifying your fats? That's from good bile flow. So can you break down things and absorb things like your vitamins A, D, E, K, which is why So many people with mold illness have liver dysfunction and then that shows up over time as osteoporosis because you're not getting fat-soluble vitamins for strong, healthy bones and your ability to absorb your calcium through your food has been compromised due to bio flow.

Remember, bio for everybody who skipped ninth grade science is what your liver makes. It's kind of like your liquid gold detergent in the body. Okay, you described that. Liquid gold detergent. Oh, that's beautiful. It's expensive to make. Your body wants to reuse it. It wants to melt it down and reuse it over and over again, hence the liquid gold. But it's using components of your cholesterol and amino acids, pairing those together to make these bile salts. And then those, those are actually solid.

And those are suspended in liquid to make bile in very delicate chemistry. What can make that go wrong? Almost anything. A molecule from your mother-in-law's dryer sheets. You don't even like the smell, but you don't want to offend her. Or the Glade plugin, you know, in your Uber drivers. you know, on their vents because they think that they're... Can we just pause there? Like, I think those are more toxic than about anything else we bring into our homes. So for our audience today, if you have those, please just go unplug them and throw them away.

Yes. Thanks. So thank you for bringing that up. That's one of the biggest things. Say Dr. Anne and Sinclair told you, do not have those in your house. Make us the bad guys. Tell everybody you know. Because they're just trying to make money off of you guys. They have no interest or care in what your health picture looks like. In fact, if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, look at who owns those companies and what interests they have in big pharma and how much they'll benefit from you as a customer later because you can't became chronically ill from being poisoned by those.

Sorry. Yeah, that's a huge rabbit hole. Thank you. But it's so it's the number of people that have those just still kind of shocks me that the word is not getting out about them. Yeah. Yeah. And just because luckily for some of you, and I do say this very deliberately, you have a visceral, like a noticeable reaction to those. And I know it feels very uncomfortable, like even unlivable to be so aware of what's around you. But it is so much better to be that way and to know, to have your body be able to give you that signal that you're in an unsafe environment than it is to not get that signal and get the poison anyway and have to deal with the damage later.

So I do say that very deliberately. You are very lucky if you are sensitive. And I came to that the hard way. So anyway, it can easily happen that you come across different environmental toxicants throughout the day that are dropping your bile salts out of liquid

Supporting Drainage, Binders, and Liver Recovery 28:28

form and slowing that down, which means those 2,000 miles of bile ducts in your biliary tree. This is your big boy liver, it's triangle, and you have this biliary tree. The bile is supposed to be formed and then it's intricately involved in, you know, absorbing things from the red blood cells and then draining down the biliary tree and then going down into the little catcher's mitt, which is your gallbladder, if you soak that one. And then your gallbladder is going to actually modify that pH of your bile.

It's going to condense it and it's going to match the pH to the needs of the small intestine based on what's generally coming out of the stomach, which is the bolus of food and that stomach and the side. And, you know, your bile, your gallbladder can actually do much more than that. We know now that it can modify your bile to be even more anti-cancer, for example, and depending on the environment of your digestive system and what is needed. So it's magnificent, this process, but you can't see it on labs.

So assume, or on normal labs, let's just put it that way, assume that if you've been poisoned by mold, your liver function has been compromised. and that you could really do with some general liver support, but you don't want to skip right to, like, whomping your liver over the head with, like, a lot of glutathione IVs and nothing else. You might have a short-term, oh, I feel a little better, and then a big crash because glutathione is a mobilizer, and it should never be used by itself, you know, without the context of a larger protocol because it's not a great binder.

Yes, you need it for every stage of liver detoxification, But it's actually better to think about this systemically and make sure that we're supporting drainage first. So is, I like to say, is the exit, you know, from the liver, you know, out the body, is there a clear exit or is there some stuff in the way? And if you have a buildup of material on the colon, like most of us do, most Americans have five to 20 pounds of cake feces in their colon. Yum. That's good. That's true. And most people who have mold poisoning have compromised gut motility.

in part due to compromised bile flow. And then so you already have a fermentation situation in the gut. So we have to consider that what's between the liver and the exits before we start asking the liver to dump stuff. So we want to ease into this systemically, you know, and really consider the layers of support you need to be successful. So what are your favorite things to support the liver and the bile? I like to use bowel builders and bowel movers and as well as like global liver support. So if you're not pooping every day, you are not allowed to push detox.

I'm sorry. It's time to work on that first. It's okay. There's lots of non-habit-forming supports out there. You know, everybody has their favorites. What are yours? One way to do a good, deep clean up that's a little short term is to use ozonated magnesium by like OxyPowder by Global Healing Center. Okay. You guys, this is not supposed to make like Bristol four beautiful bananas in the toilet. This is supposed to empower your body. It will draw water into the colon. It's very gentle and just help empower the body to get rid of those like weird packets of stuff that at one point or another, your colon was simply not in a position to release.

efficiently, and then they just built up. So, ozonated magnesium, especially oxy-cowder from Global Healing Center, is a great way to flush it out. You will see strange things in the toilet, strange smells, strange textures, strange colors, and that's great. That's a win. And you want to go somewhere between like, yes, I'm having a full release in the morning, between that and disaster pants. Disaster pants is too far. You're going to need to modulate your dose down. Well, and it can change, like once you really get detoxed and get flowing, you still may use the oxy powder some, but not at the same rate.

So it is kind of a constant learning curve. Yeah, that's so beautifully said. But it's highly likely that it'll be helpful for really that downstream pathway. I love that solution. Yeah, absolutely. And so yeah, for an overloaded liver, you want to consider like, what would really help? What would relieve some of the stagnation without asking you to move too fast? And a great way to do that is to provide components that are expensive to come by for the body so that it can more easily make fresh bile and let go of old stuff.

And that will just help support that process in a systemic way. So phosphatidylcholine is great. I just think everybody should be taking it preventively at least a few days a week because it really helps with so many things. But yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because it's one of my favorites too. Oh, great. So, and that's, I like the micellized PC, that's great, but there are other forms on the market and it's a major component of bile. So yay, let's do that. I also like bile builders like Tedka, which is also the king of bitters.

So I do like Cellcore's advanced Tedka more than body bios. It's, I find it to be more effective. It's got those, it's got NAC as a driver in it. which is very useful for some people that's going to be too strong to start on, especially for severe, you know, mold illness where your drainage is like very, very low functioning. So you could start out with the body bio or you can just start out with a really low dose of the advanced toolkit. What else do I like? I do like bitters if you could tolerate them.

Bitters are not the best place for everybody to start with. If you have like a real histamine intolerance, most of those foods are going to activate that. But again, what we've lost... It's interesting, though, because it's so person-to-person dependent. Like, my body, like, I can go on that histamine spectrum, too, and my body just loves bitters. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. Isn't that weird? I've seen that so many times, yes. So it's worth a try. And if you try it and you have, get tipped over with the histamines, you know, within 24 hours, you should be maybe 48 hours kind of back to your moves line.

But it's worth a try because for some of us, it's amazing. Yeah, exactly. And what we're doing is we're letting the body know, if you take those 20 minutes before a meal, we're letting the body know, hey, it's time to get the gastric juices flowing. Like, this is stuff that you should be, if we were cooking traditionally, the brain and your olfactory sense would have lots of time to tell the body, hey, we're going to be digesting soon. Get ready. But we are so quick with the way we prepare meals now, or we may be sitting down to somebody else's table or getting a takeout or something.

That may not be the case, especially when we're not well. We're not doing a lot of meal preps. It helps the body get ready and let you know you're gonna need some bile flow. And that is so beautiful. Like so many times I hear practitioners of all stripes tell people, oh, your gallbladder is impacted. We could tell because you're not handling fats well because you have nausea and GERD and you have some of the liver signs of dark circles under the eyes, these proliferation of skin issues. Like they can see that they're good at actually drawing that association, but then what they say to do about it is terrible.

So like, oh, you have eczema or psoriasis or dermatitis or any of these other rashes. You are histamine sensitive. You're irritable. You're quick to overwhelm brain foggy. You're waking up at 3 a.m. Yeah, that all sounds like the liver. But then they tell you because your gallbladder pings when you eat high fat foods, you should eat a low fat diet. And the problem with that is you're not asking the gallbladder to release. It needs a workout. You have to use that muscle in order to get things. That's such a great analogy.

Yeah. If you never ask it to deal with that, it's just going to not even prioritize that function at all. So how do you, yeah, how do you... Right. And I always thought I was just like a very delicate person. And yeah, obviously that's true. But you know, I was like, oh, I can't handle fats. I prefer to eat very light. But the truth is my gallbladder was so impacted that I could not tolerate any fats without feeling instantly nauseous. That's a very common thing where the bile's trying to move. and you get that nausea or you get that pinging, that's the gallbladder talking.

So you can start with really low doses of high quality fats and you got to play a really clean game. No rancid oils if you have liver and gallbladder issues. If you've been impacted by mold, your days of crappy fats are done. What are your favorites? I really like the animal-based healing fats. I don't say this lately because I spent most of my life as a vegetarian. So, but clinically it's undeniable. I have an ethical responsibility to tell you guys, you know, so you, I know you don't want to hear it.

Those of you who are vegan, vegetarian in the audience, I totally understand why, but you will heal faster if you have animal products and animal fats. You see this over and over and over again. It's so much easier for people to heal if they're getting animal fats and animal protein. Especially for liver issues, especially for mold illness for so many reasons. So tallow is deeply healing, deeply healing. Can you explain what tallow is? Because people may not know what it is. Yeah, so tallow is animal fat.

And so it's usually beef tallow. And so this is like a fat that you can actually get in a jar, just like butter or ghee or coconut oil you can scoop some out and you would actually use that to saute your vegetables or you know you could put that and you could drizzle it on like your sweet potato you can cook meat with it and You could start with just small amounts. You can also apply telotopically and that's a really great way to get small amounts of it in. And that's what I had to do for a period of time because my skin was so compromised and it's so healing for the skin and it's very cost-effective.

You do want to have grass-fed, grass-finished though. Like with animal products, quality really counts. I like your females. Yeah. So tallow is a great food, a fat to cook in. And anytime you bring in healing fats to the body, it's going to ask the liver and gallbladder to work, which is good. You just want to do a dose that you are capable of handling. It's like, what, what weights are you working with? Like how much can you lift right now? and there's no wrong number, you just want to respect what the body can do right now, and you'll work up from there.

And then another good one is ghee, because even people who are very dairy sensitive can tolerate ghee. I'm a little iffy on that one. I wouldn't put that one in right away just because it can be so inflammatory for so many people. Yeah, that's true. I did not enjoy ghee in the beginning. For some people, it's a lifesaver if they're underweight and due to mold illness, and it's like one of the few things that they can tolerate. So, you know, to each their own, you're going to have to experiment.

Deep Liver Cleanup and Final Takeaways 39:28

And then you can look at the butters. The issue with so many people with mold illness is that you can become very sensitive to dairy. So if you're in that spectrum, one thing to try as an experiment with is goat butter versus cow butter. Obviously, the cow products are going to be the hardest on the body. One of the things that is useful for vegans is coconut oil, but it does have its limitations. And then we've really like deified it and it is a beautiful, beautiful food. But we just want to be aware that it doesn't solve all problems.

And the amount may matter a lot. And you also have to consider your sourcing, just like anything else. What other ones did I miss? And help me remember rancid fats versus failing fats. Actually, you did great. I like, I do think some of the avocado oils are high enough quality that I think people do fine with them. But I think you did. You got all the big ones. The big ones. Yeah. Yeah. Easy to get in high quality that most people will tolerate. Yeah, so what I want everybody to take away from this is that this is very doable to ease into this, although at a certain point you may need to do deeper liver work.

And that is really what we're working towards is preparing the liver, preparing the body and all of the among trees, all of your drainage pathways. to get ready for a deeper release of what has stacked up. So for mold is highly estrogenic in nature. And what we know from what we know now is that the liver and gallbladder can both produce stones and get stuck with them for quite some time. And it doesn't have to be like, they don't have to be so minerally dense that they show up on scans. In fact, mine never did.

And I never did the I never drank the olive oil because I thought it was, or at least for most of my healing journey, because I thought I was too sensitive to do that kind of you know, liver flesh that has been popularized by Hilda Clark and Andreas Moritz. They have a beautiful body of work, both of them. And we're really in so many ways standing on their shoulders today. But for so many of us, that's not the right move when we're working on liver support. So I had to figure out other ways to offload those and use stone breaker herbs and do suppositories and coffee enemas and different drainage supports and just the right stack where I would pulse a release and I would get stones out in the toilet every time.

And if I didn't do the stack right, I didn't get them out. But I got out over 15,000 stones from the liver and bladder over a period of six months. And I thought for sure I didn't have any because they didn't shop on the scans. And they weren't very dense. They were just cholesterol-based, you know, with some bile, some toxic sludge in the middle. And they would float on the top of the toilet. So they're less dense than water, heavily oil-based because remember cholesterol. And in that way, I absolutely saw finally a full recovery from what I would consider my mold illness.

So no wonder you couldn't detoxify, because you didn't have your bile salts flowing. They were all sludged up. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's just very basic, guys. My biliary tree was just chock full of those. And mold is a great reason for your liver to create cholesterol-based stones, so as high levels of estrogen. mold is highly estrogenic, so that's yet another compounding factor. And the good news is this is all fixable and at a rate that you can tolerate it. You can just start with the right amount of drainage support for you right now, a little bit of mitochondrial support, the right binders on board for you, and then start building bile and adding those elements in.

But you may, if you're like me, at some point need to do a deeper clean-up. I think this is a perfect time to let people know where to find you. I know you have some really great online programs that people will want to tap into when they hear your story and your wisdom on this. Yeah, we've taken over 10,000 people through these liver protocols and it's just absolutely my joy. Amazing. Listen, Clara, you've helped so many people. Yeah, it's so my joy when people come in, brain foggy, irritable, overwhelmed.

and afraid of their bodies, and you don't have to be afraid of your body, guys. So we talk about the liver on Instagram. You can come hang out with us there, Detox Rejuvenation. We also, I'm the host of your Health Reset podcast, and you can find us at detoxrejuvenation.com. There's lots of fun liver support tools. along the way. And I just say, just get excited about understanding your body. This is not the problem. This is your greatest friend. This is your sacred vessel. This is your way into this plane of existence, you know, as an eternal being.

If that resonates with you, it does for me. Me too. Yeah, so let's get curious and let's love it, even on the days that are hard. And find the silver and platinum linings, because I'm sure you've changed the trajectory of your health. for residing at some longevity for many decades to come. Yeah, that's the hope, right? So it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to take the next step. Thank you so much for... Thank you so much. It's just a joy to do. Really, really beautiful information. I know it's going to help a lot of people too.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being an advocate in this space. I hope everybody's just soaking up this time with you because you're just so magical. So thank you, Sinclair. I'll see you soon. Thank you so much. Thank you for tuning into Dr. Talks. We hope today's episode has enlightened and inspired you on your path to optimal health. Each day is a new opportunity to make choices that empower your well-being. For more insights and strategies, subscribe to our podcast and visit our website, www.DrTalks.com.

Stay connected, stay healthy, and join us next time on Doctor Talks, real talks from real doctors on the issues that matter to you most.