Mushroom & Herb Synergy: Brain, Gut, and Immune Support with Tom Dadant

Intro to Vitality Radio and Host Defense 0:00

One of the reasons that we grow our mushrooms the way we do is we're growing them on organic brown rice. And it's, you know, for those people, it says, oh, brown, rice, arsenic, no, non-detectable. So don't worry about the arsenate content of brown. It's non detectable, we are growing those mushroom species here as they digest. the rice that we're growing it on, that rice becomes now a prebiotic. It's actually feeding the entire microbiome, not just the spore-forming bacteria that you've got. So the whole product is a probiotic as well as a postbiotic because the mushrooms are also having that post biotic activity as Welcome to Vitality Radio, the podcast that helps you make sense of natural supplements and thrive without pharma drugs.

I'm Jared St. Clair. Hello and welcome to Vitality Radio, the podcast that helps you master natural supplements, enhance your emotional vitality and thrive without the use of pharma drugs. I am really excited for today's show for a couple of reasons. The topic is always interesting. We're going to talk about medicinal mushrooms and some very specific combinations that have been used for some excellent results by a company that most people listening to this show probably at least have heard of, Host Defense.

The Biggest Name in Mushrooms started by the guy with the biggest name in mushrooms, Paul Stamets. But I'm really excited because I get to interview someone who I've known about for years, who, I don't even know how many dozens and dozens of trade shows over the years. He's been doing this for 40 plus years as have I. And really, excited to have Tom Dedant on the show from Host Defense. Tom, welcome to Vitality Radio. Thank you so much. It's like finally, right? Well, you know, I've only done like 1700 of these episodes.

So, it's good to finally have you on one. There we go. I'm happy to have. Let's talk. You've been with Host Defense for close to a decade, is that what you said? Close to decade. It's like into my ninth year now. Okay. All right. And so you're pretty well steeped in it. Prior to that you were with Planetary Herbal, one of my favorite herb companies that we've had at our store Vitality for I don't know, 30 years probably now. Yeah. And so, and of course we've had host defense forever as well. So you've been around the block with herbs and mushrooms quite a bit.

I'm curious with what's happened with host offense and I dunno what the timeline is exactly, but what we're going to talk about today, the first thing I want to I don't know, probably the most well-known product that Host Defense makes, the Stamets 7, we'll talk about that. But then we're going to talk some products that are not just mushrooms, but also have some herbs or in one case probiotics. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on herbs and mushrooms generally, because to me, they pair so beautifully, But they work so differently that there's this amazing synergy that can happen.

Exactly. And, you know, and that's still, to go back to stem at seven, which we'll cover again, but when we had an independent research firm in Japan call us and say, we'd like to look at that formula, We're not used to putting that many mushrooms together in one place. We love mushrooms. When they checked it out, they found out that there was a synergy using those seven mushrooms at the same time together that was greater,

Why Mushrooms and Herbs Work Well Together 3:34

almost four times greater than when you used each one of the individual mushrooms, at a different time during the same amount, same everything. But when you put them together, you know, the old saying, The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah, that's what we got. So interesting. I wasn't aware of that. That's cool. Basically with, with mushrooms and herbs, they've been getting, you know, since probably before any kind of written history, literally. And one of the things with Host Defense that we did, you, know back, I think it was almost about when I joined back about 2017, 2016 or 15, we, did what we called our Michael Botanicals line.

That was a sub line for Host defense for originally we were just mushrooms. And, you know, so single mushrooms, two mushrooms three mushrooms seven mushrooms all 17 mushrooms. But, but we realized people back then people they still had that I don't want to eat a mushroom because I didn't wanna die or I. Don't. Want to get high. So I'm going to stay away from mushrooms and basically we decided, look, we've been educating people as an industry on herbs for decades now. Let's put some herbs together with the mushrooms that they're going to recognize the herbs, and maybe they'll make the leap of thinking, okay, if that herb is good for this, you know, like, let's take Ginkgo, for instance.

We started what we call the mycobotanical line. That was herbs and mushrooms. And Brain is our best-selling mycopotentical product. And there's Ginkgo in there. And when people see the Gingko, they were making the jump, the saying, OK, lion's mane. Oh, that's probably good for the brain. Because this was before that was all known. So we segue quite a ways. But you can see in the products we're going to talk about, there are herbs and mushrooms. that work hand in hand really wonderfully. Because like you said, in many cases, I mean, we've come a long way with mushroom education, right?

I think almost everybody knows what lion's mane is at the very least now, but that wasn't the case 10 years ago, or even less than that, that leap from ginkgo to lion main makes a lot of sense to me. That's that very interesting. So then let's talk about the Stamets 7 really quickly because I have always found it very interesting. The combination of the seven mushrooms that are in there, because if you're going to talk about kind of, the greatest hits of medicinal mushrooms, you always going. You're gonna have cordyceps.

But not maybe Royal sun Blasai or Blase. or Massima. So talk about why Paul decided to throw a couple of sort of outsiders in the mix, I guess. Besides just being the way he is, each one of the mushrooms that's in stomach seven supports a different organ system in body, which makes it fascinating because on the label it says daily immune support. Okay, and that compared to our my community with this all 17 of the mushrooms we cultivate, which says comprehensive immune support. So it can get a little confusing, but STAMAT-7 was meant to be the daily multi-mushroom formula, so that you're getting all of these seven mushrooms, each one of them supporting a different organ system in the body.

And so let's take a mushroom like Mesima. Besides being really great as an immune, you know, supporting mushroom, it actually has a real good support for bone density. It helps the body to balance osteoclasts and osteoblast, which is how your bones are repairing themselves. You know? So at the end of the day, if you're getting even a healthier bone structure. Very interesting. I love that. And, and, I've always called it the multi mushroom like the multivitamins of mushrooms. Exactly right. Yeah.

Yeah. And, and so that makes sense, but that, I didn't know that about Mesema. That's very interesting. and then also, well, let's, do this really quick for people that are a little less well versed in mushrooms. The thing that I think confuses a lot of people is that maybe the most universally known aspect of mushroom health is immune support, right? You said the seventh product is a immune. We use the word modulation. which is balancing. And that's really what they're doing more than anything is they have the ability to balance immune function that, you know, support that balance as opposed to pushing it.

Stamets 7 and Mushroom Synergy 7:50

Right. But then if someone is looking for the, I mean, regardless of which mushroom you're getting, this is how I explain it to people. Tell me if I'm doing it right. Regardless of what mushroom are you getting. Let's just say it's lion's mane because that is the king of all mushrooms, right? King of the jungle and the King mushroom. That would be a smart mushroom to pick. Yeah, exactly. So lion's mane, everybody's taking it for their brain, for prevention of, you know, issues like dementia and things like that, or just general cognitive function, all the things that lion main does.

But you're still getting this really cool side benefit of two things, that I always talk about with mushrooms. One is you are getting, this amazing prebiotic fiber that comes in the mushroom itself. And then you're also getting immune support, regardless of the mushroom. Now, some are better for immune than others, but lion's mane still supports immune modulation. Am I accurate on that? Absolutely. One of things that we know is that lion main supports the barrier tissue of intestinal tract. And so, you know, we always talk about the gut-brain connection.

Lion's mane has a very, not only with the nerve regenerative aspect of the mushroom itself, but with that fact that it's protecting the barrier system on the intestinal tract so that we're getting proper gut brain connection and communication. which makes it really interesting because, you know, that's giving you a protection of the place where you've got 70% of your immune system resides in your intestinal tract. You definitely want that to be healthy. And like you pointed out, not only do you have the fiber in the mushroom mycelium itself, which, people will say, oh, with myelium, there's hardly anything there, but It's all bioactive, it's immune active, its all biologically active within the body.

And when it permeates the brown rice that we grow it on, we get secondary metabolites, fermentation metabolite, which is how the mushroom is digesting the rice by fermenting it. Fermented foods have always been used by humanity for thousands of years. Right. For all time, everything we're having to do with health, but especially gut health. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, and of course we know now that there's a term leaky gut that people didn't know what the heck that was 10 years ago either.

And now we talk about it all the time as being, you know, kind of this rampant issue that we deal with in American society because of processed foods and antibiotics and all that. It's very imbalances and so on. Yeah, so if we can work on that aspect of it, then obviously we're doing some good. So then Stamets 7 basically in a nutshell is it's a multi mushroom that works better together than any of the individual mushrooms. That's what the research showed is that by combining these mushrooms, they actually have a synergistic effect.

That team, if you will, we'll call it a mushroom team. that team is excellent at enhancing and supporting proper immune function as well as supporting different organ systems in the body. It's like you've got a basketball team or football team everybody's got their specialty. Sure. Yeah. Well, I think that's, great. And I also think it's a good place for people that are kind of dipping their toes into mushrooms and say, well, where should I start with this? You get this nice broad range of benefit.

You're still getting the lion's mane that everybody's talking about and you're getting it in a more synergistic way. but you're also getting these other great mushrooms. So now, and the Stamis 7 for people listening comes in a powder form. If you are interested in that, it also comes and capsules. It's a fantastic product and consistently one of the ones that just always moves off the shelf. People love the product once they try it. Yeah, the people that I've recommended it to Jared, they basically, come back and they keep using it Yes.

And we see that a lot with that formula for sure. Now, a few years ago, and you'll be able to tell me probably when, but you introduced this series of powders that are combinations like we talked about where they've got herbs and they got mushrooms. One of them, the microbiome formula also has spore probiotics, which I'm a huge fan of. I got really excited about these because of exactly what we talked about initially. Herbs and mushrooms are not the same thing. They're not reacting the way inside the body, but they have this beautiful synergy when combined correctly.

It's a toss up for me. I really struggle with this one. Which one of these is my favorite? I think it's the brain and body. But microbiome is really, really close. Let's start with brain body if we can because I love this product for a variety of reasons.

Brain and Body Mycobotanical Formula 12:18

One of the things I like about it is that it's kind of this golden milk thing, as far as how it mixes up and how tastes. It's a really pleasant one to use, and it just loaded with good stuff. Talk to us about this formula. Okay, so we'll start off with the mushrooms. Obviously, this is part of what we call our mycobotanical line, which is a combination of herbs and mushrooms together. The herbs that we picked are for a specific purpose. They have an actual activity within the body as far as supporting organ systems and so on.

And then basically we understand that they also support mobility. which is, that's why we call it brain and body. We've got lion's vein as one of the mushrooms, we've ratio as another one the of mushrooms. Both of them are not only supporting optimal neurological function within the brain, memory, things like that, but they also support whole body health and wellness. Now ratio especially, because it's an adaptogenic mushroom, is helping the body to balance cortisol levels in a normal range. which is really, really what you want if you've got joint issues, if got mobility issues.

When we first introduced this, we introduced it in Expo West, the biggest trade show in the industry. It's in a huge building for people who've never been there and it's all concrete floors. You walk for three days on concrete floor by the time you're done, your knees, you ankles, everything is hurting. And we were passing out free samples of this as a liquid because it is, it like you mentioned, its like a golden milk. If you are a chai fanatic, if you like chay, You'll like this because its got a very recognizable flavor.

And people kept coming back going, I don't know what it is, but I feel so much better. My knees don' hurt, my hips don''t hurt. Give me some more of that stuff. Yeah, it's a really great idea because, you know, golden milk has a tradition of use that goes thousands of years back, obviously. And I love that. We've got the turmeric in there, we've the ginger, the cinnamon, a little bit of black pepper, and that's whole blackpepper. That's not the biopory and it''s like the whole full spectrum black peppers.

Gotcha. And then, you know, two of the most powerhouse or mushrooms you can get, Lion's Mane and Raishi as well. So this formula, one of things that I love about this and why I call it one my favorites is it does have that full 1,500 milligrams of Lion' Maine in there, which is what you would get if you were just taking Lion Main on its own. But then you get all the added goodness. This is one the reasons why these powders make sense because, this is probably what, a six or seven capsule formula if it was in capsules, but it's just a single scoop.

Uh, that you get to throw into, you know, the milk of your choice or water or your smoothie or kind of wherever you want to put it. And I'm telling you, it's really good in coconut milk. I really, really like it that way. So very cool formula for both brain and body and of course also gut and immune because they're all gutting immune. Let's talk about the microbiome one, because again, that's the other one that sort of a toss up for me. This formula, we talked about, you know, leaky gut being such a big issue.

So on the Microbiome Formula, We talked About Leaky Gut Being a Big Issue. We hear a lot about everything from SIBO to IBS and all the Other issues that people are having with their gut health nowadays. It's a big problem. And of course we always talk about probiotics when it comes to gut health. That's kind of, you know, the number one thing that people talk. Probiotics, prebiotic, now postbiotics are getting a lot of publicity. and this does have my three favorite probiotic in it, bacillus coagulans, subtilis and clausii.

So I love that aspect, but probiotcs can't do the whole job, right? We need more support in the gut. so talk to us about the herbs that are in this and why they're in there. Okay. Two, from a Western point of view, because as you know, I've been an herbalist for 45 years. So just to make it really simple, From a western point-of-view, both of these herbs are what are called Demulsant. Demulsan is, think of them as making things slipperier, making thing more moist. And a lot of times the problem they have is they're constipated because they don't drink enough water.

They don' get enough fluid in their diet. they dont' enough fiber in there diet that's going to create that smooth move that you want as far as elimination is concerned. And when you put burdock root and you've put marshmallow root, both of those are really insanely good demulsants. Their helping the intestinal tract, the lining, because it's a mucosal lining. You want it to stay lubricated. They help that. And at the same time, the burdock root is known to be able to help the liver with the livers functionality.

Then that's all about working on our digestion and our throughput, creation of bile and so on. So those two herbs work hand in hand with mushrooms and with probiotics. Now, like you said, you want prebiotic. One of the reasons that we grow our mushrooms the way we do is we're growing them on organic brown rice. And for those people, brown rice, arsenic, no, it's non-detectable. So don't worry about the arsenate content of browned rice. It's nondetectible. We're growing those mushroom species here.

As they digest, the rice that we're going on, that rice becomes now a prebiotic. it is actually feeding the entire microbiome, not just the spore-forming bacteria that you've got. The whole product is a as well as a probiotic, as will as postbiotic because the mushrooms are also having that post biotic activity aswell. Yeah, it's a simple formula. There's not a bunch of ingredients in there, but it is a really well thought out formula when I first saw it, I was so excited. The first question for me when Denise, who's my local rep that brings these products in to show me, she came in and she's showing me these.

And the first questions I had in my head was, okay, what do they have in here for probiotics? And I saw the three spores that are my three superhero spore and I thought, oh, this is great. I love that the marshmallow and burdock are in their because You know, you talk about herbalism and traditionally there aren't a lot of herbs that have a whole lot more traditional use than these two herbs. These are great, but they're not that used nowadays, right? We hear about Osterwaganda and turmeric and so many of these herbs now that has taken precedent over some of the more, I don't know old school herbs in European medicine and that kind of thing.

I love marshmallow and burdock, especially for people that are dealing with you know, more chronic, just upset in the stomach. They're so soothing and calming. Absolutely. And, you, know the thing is, is that right now in our industry, we've got people, brain function is really important, energy is important.

Microbiome Formula for Gut Support 18:58

Stress is very important What it does is it's like you throw the baby out with the bath water. The gut is absolutely the key to making sure that all of that stays within balance. And if you lose that balance, then you're struggling. When you look at the mushrooms, you've got turkey tail, lion's mane, and reishi. Awesome, awesome combination. Yeah. It's, it's a cool formula. I think both of these, like I say, they're, one A and one B for me in your line. And I love both products. The brain and body is the one that I always go back to.

Yeah, I am worried about my brain. But also in addition to that, I just love golden milk. So it's a really pleasant one to use. And I love that product. Now, the last one we're going to talk about is your Michael Bectanicals Immune, which kind of brings us back a little bit to a multi-mushroom thing, a bit more than the other ones. I think we have what, five mushrooms in this formula, if I'm counting right. and then you've got a handful of herbs and some whole food, firola cherry, Which is going give you a great dose of vitamin C.

Talk to us about the herbs that are in the formula. Then we'll get into the mushrooms. Well, you know, the very fascinating thing about this formula is that with the formulators that we have in the company, They're all, they've had wonderful herbal experience, so they're herbalists. They understand how things can combine and work effectively. And it's not like, well, okay, I'm a Western herbalist, and I don't know anything about Chinese herbalism, or I know nothing about Ayurvedic herbal. Three of the mushrooms, not mushrooms but herbs that are in this formula are stragglers, which is a major Chinese adaptogenic organ system protective, immune protective mushroom or herb, then you've got a goji berry and schizandra berry.

Now gojiberi and Schizander berry are two of the superior tonics in Chinese medicine. So when they talk about a tonic, they're talking about it, talking a rejuvenative. They're literally re-juvinating your body and part of that rejubilation is to make sure your immune system is up to standard where it needs to be. So you've got those, there are three major tonic Chinese herbs that are in the formula. Sorry. Didn't mean to jump in there. Yeah. I love, I loved this one too. And, and it's, actually, this is the only one of the three I haven't actually personally tried.

So I'm going to have to take one home and give it a shot, but I am curious because it is a powder. What's the flavor like on that one? Okay, so it has almost a smoky sort of a citrusy flavor. So it blends really well with juice. I like it with apple juice, it actually augments the flavor of apple and vice versa, gives that a little bit more of the sweet aspect to it. But you notice the mushrooms in there are very, very different because they're not the mushroom that we ordinarily would have, you know, that people would be used to seeing in our line.

You've got agaricon and turkey tail. Now, agericcon and Turkey tail are two of the strongest mushrooms that cultivate, right? That's the thing that makes this formula kind of unique. I want you to expound on a couple of things for me on this one. Agaricon is a mushroom that I think people need to know a lot more about. You say it's one of the strongest mushrooms. I Think it is probably one less well-known mushroom. We rarely have people coming in asking for it. So talk to us about it briefly. So a gherkin was actually known thousands of years ago.

Hippocrates wrote about it. Avicenna, who was a Persian physician, very, Very famous at the time. They both use it, it used to be found all over the planet. It's an old growth mushroom. So as old growth forests have disappeared and all over the globe, it's gone back to a point where it was very hard to find. Paul's mycology teacher told him it took me 40 years of looking before I found my first agaricon on a tree. And Paul went out on his first, on the boat up a river looking at the, and the first outing out, he spots one up in a trees.

So it kind of like his totem. It's like a mushroom that he loves. And they always take a giant agaricon, they can live to be about 80 years old. They look like an upside down stack of pancakes coming off the tree, and they're very specific about what trees they want to grow on. So, you know, dwindling forests, all of that other thing makes them really scarce. But they were highly revered by the Pacific Northwestern Native American tribes. were used to protect the shamanic hut, if you will. When the Shaman passed away, they put the Agarikon mushrooms out by his grave site to project his gravesite.

I mean, there's some really rich history with those mushrooms. That's very cool. And then another one that I think doesn't get nearly enough love is chaga. You've got chagas in there. Chaga is also in the Stamets 7. I love chagar. Talk to us about that one. Okay, so the biggest misconception with changa is that what, you know, because chagna looks like a big chunk of coal that's growing out of the side of a birch tree or a beech tree, alder like that. Literally, people for years thought, okay, that's the fruiting body of the mushroom, because that the way a lot of other hard-bodied mushrooms come out

Immune Formula and Unique Mushrooms 24:58

of trees, it's their fruting body. But the chaga that is coming out the tree is actually mycelium, cause it is a parasitic mushroom. So it trying to get to the heart, trying it to center of tree. It's gotta go through ring after ring, after, ring. So during a very dry season, the rings are very tight and very dense. It is hard to get through. But the mushroom is growing at the same time. That mycelium has to go someplace, so it pops out of the bark. Now it's outside, it is exposed to solar radiation because it likes to grow way up in the northern realms.

What does it do? It creates melanin. What do we create when we're out exposed to the sun? We create melanin to protect our skin. Literally, this helium is creating melanine to The solar radiation, as it's sitting outside the tree, they call it a conch, or sometimes like a piece of charcoal. It's what it looks like. And that's the mushroom protecting itself. So it has an affinity, which is fascinating, for the epithelial cells of the body. Now the Epithelia cells line, that first layer underneath your skin, that is the inside of the body from the outside world.

It's the same layer, single cell thick, which I think is fascinating, that lines your lungs, lines, your digestive tract and lines. Your skin all protective and they're like what they call barrier tissues. They're all different tissues, so Chaga has an affinity for protecting and supporting those tissues in the. Which is why you'll find it a lot of our formulas. Yeah, I love Chaga. Some of what you said I either didn't know or didn' remember. That's fascinating, the parasitic nature of it. But what I have known about Chagas and what fascinates me the most is that barrier protection.

I recommended a lot, again, when we go back to gut health. Big, big thing because of the issues that we're dealing with in America with leaky gut and all that kind of stuff. Chagar is just a really, really cool mushroom. A lot more love. Yeah, and Jared, the same thing applies to respiratory. That's why we have it in our breathe formula, which is chaga and cordyceps and reishi, because it's protecting the lining. It's supporting the lighting of the respiratory tract. That's awesome. And that's good to know because I don't usually think of, of Chaga there.

So that, that great. I, I often think, you know, cordyceps when we're talking about respiratory for other reasons, obviously. and of course, You know you and I think we could probably talk about this for the rest of the week, but you. actually on vacation right now yourself. And I need to wrap up because I got to run and open a store. But this has been a great conversation. I really am so happy to have had you on finally. It's been forever that I, like I said, I've known you, met you multiple times at shows, but we've never actually had the chance to sit down and talk.

After 40 years, it is about time. About time. Yeah. I was actually listening to a YouTube video on the way in and the last thing he said was it's about time and I thought, okay, well that's fitting for what we're doing today. So anyway, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for the information. We have these three amazing combinations that are all under the Mycobotanicals. The microbiome, the immune, and the brain and body, those will all be linked in the show description. Of course the Stamets 7, you know, classic formula.

As you said, Stamat 7 is my daily go-to. It's in my morning beverage. I put it in oatmeal. That's the nice thing about the powders, Jerry. Just a quick touch on that. They're the most economical way to buy our mushrooms. and they are the easiest to use because you're not swallowing handfuls of capsules. You can put it in a smoothie. I put in on oatmeal. It's already been heated. Yeah, and for me, it's got to be the same for you. People that have been in this industry forever, we like to take supplements, right?

We have a cabinet that looks a lot like- And it goes with the territory. A lot, like my store. So the less pills I have to swallow, the better. When I take mushrooms, It's always a tincture or a powder. I don't ever swallow mushroom capsules because I've take other things in capsule. No more room for capsuls. Exactly, exactly. All right, my friend. Well, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. We'll have to do this again, talking on some other. It's an honor. Anytime. Any time. Alright.

Thank you. So much. And for everybody listening, I hope this was another helpful mushroom episode for you, we've been bringing these to you from time to time Enhance your education on medicinal mushrooms because they are such a powerhouse that you definitely need in your arsenal. If you have questions, call us 801-292-6662 or visit one of our two stores with the Bountiful or South Ogden. We've got you there. And of course on our website as well, vitalitynutrition.com. Until next time, my name is Jared St.

Clair and this has been Vitality Radio. Thanks for listening to the Vitality Radio Podcast. If this episode helped you, follow the show, share it with someone and explore trusted education and resources at vitalitynutrition.com. See you next time. Hello, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Vitality Radio. Just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast has not been evaluated by the FDA. Thank you.