Mushrooms Are Powerhouses For Supporting Your Immune Function

Mason Bresett, ND

Great. Thanks for having me, Terry. Really appreciate it. So I’m Dr. Mason Bresett. I’m a naturopathic doctor. I have a primary clinic here in Ontario, Canada. And I’m the chief science advisor for Real Mushrooms, which is a medicinal mushroom extract company. I have been using medicinal mushrooms in my clinical practice for many years, in anything from acute immune cases to chronic immune cases to other sorts of primary health care issues that come up when dealing with people in a one-on-one doctor’s office setting. Throughout my studies with Naturopathy Medical School, throughout my clinical experience and rotations, I have basically come to be very interested in not only herbal adaptogens but medicinal and medicinal mushroom adaptogens. And this kind of allowed me to do more research in the world where we are looking into how medicinal mushrooms affect all types of health, whether that be wellness prevention, and then also things like acute and chronic treatment. So I have been diving into the medicinal mushroom research and the traditional context of mushrooms for the last, I would say, almost a decade.

Terry Wahls, MD

Okay, this is lovely. Now, everyone, all of you who are listening. Mushrooms are a vital part of the Wahls Protocol and I did that intentionally because the research is quite striking on an observational basis that the more mushrooms you have in your diet, the lower the rates of anxiety, depression, and cognitive decline. And for that reason, I made mushrooms a big part of my culinary tradition. And now I think the research continues to grow now that scientists are looking at particular molecules in supplement studies for the animal models of neurodegeneration. So let us dive into this. How is it that mushrooms are having this big effect on our mental health and on neurodegeneration?

Mason Bresett, ND

That is a great question. And it can basically start right from the starting point, which is our immune system. And we know that medicinal mushrooms have these compounds in them, and some of them, we note, as active compounds, and some of them are more secondary compounds. So how I like to describe it is that all mushrooms have an affinity to our health and affinity to the immune system, and they also have these secondary characteristics that also help these systems in our body. Some of the major compounds that are in medicinal mushrooms and functional mushrooms are things known as polysaccharides. And these specific active compounds have an array of activity within the immune system, and they also have actions on different systems in the body. 

For example, they can work with immune modulation, meaning they can sort of bring balance to your immune system depending on the context. They can support the gut and microbiome of individuals taking them. They work on the two to three systems of the immune system. We have the innate immune system, the adaptive immune system, and then this new concept known as trained immunity, which is like this memory within the innate system. And looking at how these mushrooms help is as amazing because they are accessible to pretty much everybody that goes to a farmer’s market. Anybody that goes into their local supermarket, they can be used as a culinary medicine, but also in specific forms of extracts in the health and wellness world.

Terry Wahls, MD

For everyone who is listening, the term innate immune system means that part of the immune system that protects me from infections during the first two weeks of that infection, it is exposure. And then as my body’s getting used to that exposure, I can start making antibodies to protect me and that will kick in at about two weeks. That is the adaptive immune system. So both are very helpful to us. Now, when we talk about the mushrooms, we do not think about these specific molecules or compounds that might be having some of this effect.

Mason Bresett, ND

Yeah, there are quite a few that we are more interested in within the neuroimmune neurological world. The beta-glucans, which are those main polysaccharides in mushrooms, are of interest. There are different secondary compounds like cordycepin which is in the mushroom cordyceps. And then there are other compounds that are relevant when dealing with oxidative stress, also known as inflammation. These are things like triterpenes, ergot, thiamine, and also there is a big class of compounds that we are really interested in when looking at the brain or any kind of nervous system disorder or neuroimmune disorder, and that is these things called terpenoids. They are mostly found in a few special mushrooms that we’ll talk about, and specifically one of them being lion’s mane. Mushrooms also have different phenols and flavonoids, just like herbs and other antioxidants, rich plants. So they also have those.

Terry Wahls, MD

Do you have some favorite mushrooms that you like to recommend? I have a few, so we can sort of compare. Let us see, what are the ones that you want.

Mason Bresett, ND

Do you want to go first or me?

Terry Wahls, MD

I think you should go first. You are more of the mushroom expert than me.

Mason Bresett, ND

Okay. When looking at mushrooms in this arena, I like lion’s mane, oyster mushroom, reishi mushroom, and then usually a blend looking at including some other mushrooms like chaga, turkey tail, shiitake, and maitake. So those are the big ones that we see or the ones that I like when working in this world of the nervous system, the neuroimmune world. And we know that different mushrooms have a lot of the similar characteristics like I named and noted, but they also have their own unique personalities. So those are the top ones that I like when looking into this area of supporting neurological health.

Terry Wahls, MD

Well, I think there is a lot of overlap. So personally, I like having a lot of lion’s mane every day. I also think it tastes delicious. So I will go pick some lion’s mane up and I’d enjoy that as well. I like reishi, I think that is really helpful for calming. I am way overly activated. It is hard for me to calm down, calm my mind so I can sleep at night. Reishi has been super helpful for that. I like turkey tail a lot and I have many patients with MS who are worried about the risk of secondary cancers because of the disease-modifying drug treatments that many of us have taken in the past or are taking currently. So I certainly encourage a lion’s mane more than that. Maitake is very nice, I like Chaga as well. And like you, I like to see a blend of mushrooms. I have a blend of mushrooms and I get a bag of turkey tail and I blend those two extracts and I take a heaping teaspoon of that mushroom extract every day when I’m making my smoothie that I have every evening.

Mason Bresett, ND

Sounds like a great smoothie and packed full of great immune-modifying nutrients and compounds.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yeah. I think it is my goal for everyone to have at least 200 different plant species that we are having every year. And I was shocked when I learned that mushrooms are their own separate kingdom, that mushrooms are not part of the plant kingdom. I was totally shocked by that. I suppose you are totally aware of that, Mason, correct?

Mason Bresett, ND

Yeah, but it still baffles my mind as well, Terry. Just the intricate nature of the different genetics from plants and also humans versus mushrooms is quite remarkable. And I think within that there is some great physiological evidence that can suggest that they can help us in different ways than those other plants, herbs, and nutrients.

Terry Wahls, MD

Let us talk about that ergothioneine and what is special about that molecule for brains. So then we could go a little bit further. Does it have special utility for people with MS and neuroimmune?

Mason Bresett, ND

Yeah. So ergothioneine for those who do not know what that is, it is a sulfur containing amino acid that is found only in a few foods, and mushrooms are being one of the top ones. And when looking into this research, I have learned a lot from a few key researchers. Hallowell, he is out in Singapore, and Dr. Bob Beelman. And when we look into the Ergothioneine research, we can see that it is this adaptive antioxidant, and it is in a similar class to the more commonly known antioxidant, known as glutathione. And the structure just differs a little bit based on the chemical nature of them. So what is interesting about Ergothioneine is that the body systems that we see it show up in the most, have the most oxidative stress or inflammation. So when looking at where the body uses up the glutathione or sorry Ergothioneine, it’s in these areas that have a high turnover of stress. And these are areas like the eye, like the red blood cell, like our immune cells, and also our brain. So this becomes really relevant when looking into neurological disorders because of some of the interesting clinical and preclinical studies that have been done. 

And what the summary is is basically as we age, our ergothioneine seems to drop. And I would argue that also or not argue, but I would add that if we have any kind of disorder or medical condition that creates more turnover or inflammation, our levels are going to drop. So when looking at Ergothioneine, we see that around the age of around 55, 60, those levels began to drop. And there has not been a lot of studies done on some of these medical conditions. But when we look into Ergothioneine we know that certain parts of the world eat more or they have more in their diet, meaning they are eating more mushrooms, they are intaking more Ergothioneine. And by studying those populations, we can see that when you can increase your lifespan by almost three years by looking at the data and then two, you can decrease your risk of some of these neurodegenerative diseases. And these are based on these biomarker studies that look into how ergothioneine shows up in our health. 

And some of this becomes relevant when looking at neuroimmune cases because of the amount of inflammation that can happen, the amount of turnover happening at a cellular level in the brain or in the nervous system. So it’s an interesting compound that, again, it has been studied a lot in animals, a lot in cell studies, a lot in clinical trials, preclinical studies, sorry. And looking at the future of our society, I think it is very bright. Also, anything to do with cognitive decline or lowered energy levels that comes with a chronic illness or comes with a neuroimmune problem. I think Ergothioneine is relevant.

Terry Wahls, MD

As I’m listening to you, I’m thinking MS and then all of those autoimmune conditions with neurologic and psychiatric symptoms. And then I’m also thinking about my aunts. I have three aunts, all of whom had age-related macular degeneration and went blind and developed cognitive issues. And I’m thinking that the retina probably would have been helped by that, Ergothioneine.  Well, what do you think? Would that be probably true?

Mason Bresett, ND

I think so. There is not a ton of direct studies with the eye right now. But, we know that the retina and the brain, they are derived from the same embryological tissue. So I think that, yeah, if there is that high turnover at that retina level, just like at the red blood cell level, some buffer there or some resistance there. It would definitely would have been helpful and is helpful.

Terry Wahls, MD

So if we assume that mushroom forms are helpful as an immune modulator if someone is having more relapses, more autoimmune activity leading to more symptoms, is this a reason to increase my mushroom intake? What do you think?

Mason Bresett, ND

Yeah, it is always case-dependent when looking at autoimmunity and the particular person suffering with that. And I think more times than not, it is relevant. Due to the amino-modulating nature of medicinal mushrooms. There are times when if someone is in an inflammatory flare or something’s not going right with their body at the moment, then mushrooms might impact people negatively. And that is a reality. But we do know that overall when looking at some of the mechanisms, some of the clinical use of mushrooms, I really think that reishi and cordyceps are ones to lean into more just based on the immunology and how that interacts with our immune system. But we do know that mushrooms are multifaceted and they can support people in different ways. And if you zoom out from that more immunological lens, you can see that they are doing different things. They’re anti-inflammatory, they’re redox regulating. They can support the gut biome which has these downstream and upstream effects on autoimmune conditions. And we do know that some people do trend towards one taping of the immune system. So if somebody is in that zone, we can either bring them back to the middle or we can use medicinal mushrooms to help with that immune balancing protocol.

Terry Wahls, MD

So we could think about the mushrooms as a wellness support for the autoimmune and M.S. patient. I would not use mushrooms in place of taking a disease, or modifying drug treatment, but can certainly be a support. And I think I’m hearing you say that if there is a flare, You would not be telling me to avoid mushrooms, that it would be okay to have mushrooms with my steak or mushrooms added to whatever casserole or dish that I’m eating. That they certainly would be fine to eat along with my meals.

Mason Bresett, ND

Absolutely. Yes, definitely. Those culinary mushrooms are okay to take when in that scenario, with multiple sclerosis patients, autoimmune patients are totally safe to be eating at that time and if not probably supportive. What we need to consider is also that low doses of a few culinary mushrooms or in a blend seem to do quite well, especially with my patients when having an autoimmune condition or MS And then it is just recommended to get more specific advice when using some of the higher extract mushrooms, perhaps during a flare.

Terry Wahls, MD

Everyone who is listening, I want you to know that I’m encouraging all of my patients to include medicinal mushrooms as part of their wellness support. As we work together, I like them to have lion’s mane. I would like them to have a blend of mushrooms. And I think it is okay to go through a variety of blends. I like having diversity and I would say diversity in mushrooms are okay. And so I will go through a variety of these blends, but I’m always taking my lion’s mane. I can not say that I ever go without it. Maybe when I’m traveling, I do not take it with me. But otherwise, I’m always including lion’s mane in that self-care wellness mushroom cocktail that I enjoy. Do you have any thoughts about anxiety and depression? That is a huge factor for people with MS in their immune conditions. Anxiety and depression are our diagnosis in about a third of those patients and another third will have anxiety and depressive symptoms, even if they don’t meet diagnostic criteria. Is there a role for mushrooms for those issues?

Mason Bresett, ND

Yes. When dealing with a chronic illness and having the mood-impacting symptoms, mushrooms can absolutely be something to lean into and use every day. I believe the two that I use the most often in this scenario are reishi and lion’s mane. But again, even eating mushrooms on a regular basis is going to decrease your depression. And there are studies to actually show this, and it is a dose-dependent curve, meaning the more that you eat up until a certain limit, obviously the less amount of anxiety and depression that you will have, specifically depression shown in some of these longer trials that have been done. Reishi specifically has more of a calming nature, so it can actually have an anti-anxiety effect. And there are certain compounds in Reishi that help this move along, those are the triterpenes. Lion’s mane also can be implicated here because of the different compounds that can help support mood. And there is different research on different modes and models of depression that show that if people are having mood symptoms, that perhaps the compounds in mushrooms that help the neurological system could help this. And when looking at mood, we also have to look at the just general nutrient and vitamin and medicinal effects that eating mushrooms can have from a mental health perspective when going through having symptoms such as what you mentioned there, Terry.

Terry Wahls, MD

And one more area of question, how about nutritional yeast or brewer’s yeast? So any benefit there, is that a useful food for people to consider?

Mason Bresett, ND

That is an interesting one. I do not prescribe it a lot or do a lot with it. I think that different yeasts have different therapeutic and medicinal values. I do not know the long-term benefits of that with MS. patients or with neuroimmune patients. I do not think it is a bad idea for some people that tolerate it, but I think for others it can implicate negative side effects for them.

Terry Wahls, MD

If you are going to try nutritional yeast, do you have any adverse reactions to it? One of the things that I think makes nutritional yeast attractive is that it has to have a rich, cheesy, like flavor. And if I asked you to give up dairy for many people that is really hard. So that’s a great recipe where you grind up a little walnuts, English walnuts, and blend it with nutritional yeast and sea salt to make a parmesan-like spread. That is delicious. And it’s my family’s option as a cheese alternative because for me, dairy will trigger severe exacerbations of my trigeminal neuralgia. So it has been a very helpful culinary treat for us.

Mason Bresett, ND

Yeah, that is a great adjunct or dairy alternative for sure, for that flavor profile.

Terry Wahls, MD

Yeah, it has a little umami flavor, so that can be very nice. But again, for some people, it can cause some headache issues. So try a small dose, see how it works for you. If it does, it can add a nice flavor for you. Mason, what is the one thing you want everyone to have taken from our conversation today?

Mason Bresett, ND

I think whether you are an MS. patient or someone suffering from a chronic immune disorder that mushrooms can be helpful in your program, in your plan, in your life. And mushrooms are a food source, so it makes them very safe compared to a lot of these other therapeutics we use. So when working with mushrooms, there are so many ways to do it. You could be walking in the woods and exploring mushrooms, growing in your local area. You could be taking a specific mushroom extract with your smoothie or your coffee, or you could be using more specific doses, working with your practitioner to implicate tough and chronic health conditions that are impacting your quality of life. Mushrooms, although we may be putting out the fact that they can do everything, there are limits to them. They are not going to fix every problem. So I want people to know that they are a helpful ally to introduce into your lifestyle, to get positive change with your health. Looking through the research, Lion’s Mane, a five-defenders blend or a mixture of mushrooms can be helpful. And do not forget about the wild mushrooms as they have some of the highest amounts of Ergothioneine as well. I also like oyster mushrooms. I love all mushrooms, but oyster mushroom is the mushroom that has the highest amount of Ergothioneine and that is readily available at most grocery stores, most supermarkets these days.

Terry Wahls, MD

Okay. Now, for all of you, that just get fired up and you want to go out for wild mushrooms, be sure you take an expert with you who can safely identify those mushrooms because there are some mushrooms that we can not metabolize and can make you very ill and actually kill you. However, finding someone to take you out and to learn wild mushroom in that also can be so much fun. Now, Mason, this has been wonderful. I could talk for hours with you. Where do people go to find you and to follow you?

Mason Bresett, ND

You can find me at www.realmushrooms.com and that is where you’ll find the information about some of the new projects we are coming up with and some of the research projects that we are doing right now. We have got a few cancer trials that we’re going to be entering into using medicinal mushrooms. And also my personal information is www.thehealthcreationlab.com. If you want to learn more about my clinic and how I use mushrooms on an everyday basis with patients.

Terry Wahls, MD

Okay, that was fast. So Real Mushrooms, people remember that one, but the longer one just for you. Can you repeat that one more time?

Mason Bresett, ND

Sure. My clinic information is thehealthcreationlab.com.  And that is where you can learn more about me and my clinical approach with patients.

Terry Wahls, MD

Okay, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Mason.

Mason Bresett, ND

Thanks for having me.