Full Transcript Opening and the urge to tell his story 0:00 Welcome to the Wellness [music] on Tap 0:01 podcast with your host, Dr. Debs 0:04 Eastwood. 0:06 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you've got a 0:08 story. 0:09 >> Yeah. 0:11 I [laughter] don't know why. I 0:13 [clears throat] I don't mind saying it 0:14 as much now, but I've got my mates who 0:16 are like, "You need to tell your story." 0:17 And I'm like, "I don't want to tell my 0:18 story." "No, you need to tell your 0:19 story." And I'm like, "I don't want to. 0:21 Just leave me alone." [laughter] 0:24 Well, 0:24 >> I'm glad that you want to tell it being 0:25 as you're sitting here opposite me 0:26 today. That would be weird. I see that 0:28 it is a yeah it's a real positive and I 0:31 think that comes from um and and I know 0:34 it but I feel 0:36 this is why my research areas shame so I 0:39 still there's still aspects of me where 0:40 I still don't feel I'm good enough 0:42 >> you still got healing to do we all 0:44 >> massive oh yeah 0:46 >> we're all on a journey aren't we all at 0:47 different stages 0:49 >> I think that's what we talk about at the 0:50 work what we do cuz everyone who 0:52 presents there has got a level of trauma 0:54 it's just what levels of trauma and 0:56 what's caused them levels of trauma. 0:59 >> Yeah. 0:59 >> And then what pathways we can try and 1:01 open up 1:02 >> 100%. So where did all of this start 1:04 then? 1:05 >> So you just said you were born in 1:07 Manchester. So 1:08 >> Oh, were you recording? 1:09 >> So we've got 1:10 >> Oh, sorry. 1:11 >> No, no, no. This is the way we like to 1:12 do it. We just brilliant. We just roll. 1:15 >> Um 1:15 >> so little Paul in Manchester that is 1:18 obviously where it started. 1:19 >> Yeah. I was born at St. Mary's, so I 1:21 think I lived this is quite strange. My 1:24 um my mom's got alcohol dementia. Um, 1:28 and we were sat in the Gen Monastery the 1:31 other day, me and my partner Danielle 1:34 and and my mom and um 1:38 my mom started to tell my birth dates 1:40 and that my dad suspected that I wasn't 1:42 his and she gave the mom different date 1:44 and I was like this is not the time to 1:46 tell me that my dad's not my dad 1:48 [laughter] but I'm the spit of my dad 1:50 and it was like 1:51 >> and she was just forgetting dates. 1:53 >> So [clears throat] I was born in Gen. I 1:56 was [snorts] I was born in St. Mary's um 1:59 Manchester Royal Infirmary. Um 2:02 and then I went to Gorton. I think we 2:05 lived there for a bit with my grandma. 2:09 Excuse me. Um 2:12 and then we moved to Romley in 2:14 Stockport, South Manchester. 2:17 Um 2:19 my sister never grew up with me. Um my 2:22 mom um went away, bless her, on a 2:25 holiday and and came back with my 2:27 sister. Um yeah. 2:29 >> Oh. 2:30 >> Uh and my dad was my dad had a lot of 2:33 trauma. This is where I understand my 2:35 dad cuz he's done there was he was quite 2:38 violent and and quite toxic environment 2:41 to grow up as a child. But I understand 2:44 now through being able to see that sort 2:46 of um he broke up his first um his 2:50 marriage. He had his 2:54 his ex-wife and her partner wanted to 2:57 immigrate. So he had to sign my brother 2:59 over to him. Um 3:03 >> yeah, that's 3:04 >> and yeah, and then he was he was a 3:06 drinker from that day forward really. Um 3:09 he worked he was an engineer. 3:11 [clears throat] Um 3:13 and mom had so them two saw met each 3:16 other when they were younger had a had a 3:18 relationship 3:21 departed ways. Mom went on holiday came 3:24 back with my sister. 3:25 >> So dad 3:26 >> was your mom pregnant when before she 3:29 went away on holiday and came back with 3:30 a baby. No, no. Um, my sister's dad is 3:34 uh was a Spanish Spanish man from Lorett 3:37 Demar. 3:39 >> Okay. 3:39 >> Yeah. She used to carry his letters 3:41 around cuz he kept him Yeah. My dad 3:43 ripped him up though and she lost touch 3:45 blast. It's quite a sad story. 3:47 >> Yeah. 3:48 >> And my grandparents, my nana and 3:50 granddad, beautiful people. Um, they 3:54 wouldn't let because my mom and dad 3:56 started to get back to together. 3:59 They wouldn't let my dad and uh take 4:02 care of of Lisa. So that was another 4:06 trauma for him. 4:08 >> Yeah. There's layers upon layers there 4:09 straight away, isn't there? How many
Manchester childhood and family trauma 4:11 years is there between you and your 4:12 sister? 4:12 >> Five years. 4:13 >> Five years. Okay. 4:15 >> So there was that's a lot of 4:17 >> I actually live in her house at the 4:19 moment because I'm currently homeless. 4:21 >> Okay. Wow. 4:22 >> I know. And I work in a homeless 4:24 resource center, but I can't get enough 4:26 points to to rehouse her. 4:29 But I'll come to that bit of the story. 4:31 >> We'll get to that. So, we layers upon 4:33 layers. Yeah. They took my my sister and 4:35 brought her up, which in hindsight was 4:37 was good because she didn't witness the 4:40 stuff that I did. 4:41 >> Yeah. 4:42 >> So, you were left with your violent 4:44 father then? 4:45 >> Yeah. He was he was really loving. I 4:47 don't want to portray him in that 4:49 because I've said it before, but he was 4:51 Yeah, he was his temper was just 4:53 >> Okay. 4:54 >> So, I grew up watching my batter my mom. 4:57 So, yeah. 4:59 Um because I'm tired. I'm really I'm 5:01 feeling like really emotional. So 5:03 [laughter] 5:04 um 5:04 >> we've had lots of tears on here and if 5:07 that happens 5:08 >> I'm not I'm not afraid of that. It's 5:10 that's I like to feel 5:12 >> not in a not in a morbid [laughter] way 5:14 as I used to when I used to drink. I 5:16 used to 5:18 wallow in um like hello darkness my old 5:22 friend. They used to like used to just 5:24 fuel depression. 5:27 adding adding a depressant on top of 5:29 depression. Yeah. 5:30 >> Yeah. Bless. Yeah. But folk do, don't 5:33 they? It's the mo one of the most 5:35 accessible. 5:36 >> Yeah. It's just because it's so socially 5:38 accepted. You know, my colleague was 5:40 saying yesterday I was talking about cuz 5:43 my eldest is quite both my children have 5:47 I've always kept that open space for 5:49 them to to tell me if they're going to 5:51 use substances. They'll never close that 5:53 down because if I close it down, it's 5:54 going to repress them and then they're 5:55 going to do it secretly and then I can't 5:57 >> Yeah, you can't help there, can you? You 5:58 can't support any any sort of power in 6:00 that then. Um, and it's there's a 6:03 massive difference from when I was a 6:06 teenager taking magic mushrooms and X Y 6:09 and Zed. Mine was a bit exploratory and 6:11 bit, wow, what's this? Looking back now, 6:14 it was I was escaping very early on 6:17 taking substances. Um but Ollie was like 6:21 um he said to me 6:24 sad he's he's one of his best mates 6:27 passed away he's only 18 6:30 >> I know he ODed 6:32 >> but this lad had reached out to Oie and 6:34 he'd reached out to me um and this what 6:36 really broke Ollie is because he felt 6:38 like he couldn't save him um 6:42 >> but he'd only open up in them spaces 6:44 where he was in it so then trying to 6:46 engage that Um, and I spoke to my boss 6:49 about that and she was like, you know, 6:50 this poor you, they have to be, but it 6:53 still doesn't make you not feel that. 6:55 >> No, exactly. We're human, aren't we? 6:58 Yeah. If you're close to somebody, you 6:59 want to 7:00 >> you want to help them and you take it 7:01 personally if you can't, can you? Well, 7:02 I do. I would. 7:04 >> Yeah. And Ollie was really 7:08 like really reflecting negatively that 7:11 he should have done more. And I was 7:12 like, Ollie, come on, man. 7:13 >> Oh, bless him. 7:14 >> And um I said, you did everything. If he 7:16 would have asked you to do it, would you 7:17 have done it? He went, "Yeah." I said, 7:18 "Did you ask me to?" He went, "Yeah." I 7:20 went, "You you tried." 7:23 But [clears throat] the difference when 7:25 I was I was saying it because my 7:27 colleague was judging me going like as I 7:29 said, Oliver did some magic mushrooms in 7:33 Thailand and it's not it was it's 7:34 monitored and it's categorized, 7:37 but he I'll give you an instance. 7:41 his friend died and he still understands 7:44 his reflectivity that he's got stuff to 7:46 deal with around his he was in a quite a 7:49 longterm partnership a relationship from 7:51 such a young age. So he said to me, 7:53 "Dad, I'm going to go walking on take 7:55 Loki out, which is our dog. I'm going to 7:57 take him take some magic mushrooms and 7:59 and just contemplate and meditate around 8:02 >> the death of Kyle and and he's split up 8:06 with what went on in that relationship." 8:08 and and and I said that is I think for 8:12 him to manifest that and and use that as 8:15 substance to enlarge his consciousness 8:18 is is a positive cuz I never did that. I 8:21 never had that ability to be aware of 8:25 reflection and navigate my emotions and 8:27 my vulnerabilities and I'm like this 8:29 lad's 19 you know this is beautiful. 8:32 >> Yeah. 8:33 >> So when she said it I went all right so 8:35 you're all right with I'll call you. 8:36 Yeah. All right. Um, just give we have 8:40 tit for t. We're very close. We just we 8:42 we've been working together for a but 8:44 it's that judgmentalness around 8:46 >> Yeah. 8:47 >> No, it's not helpful, is it? Judging 8:49 >> people like 8:51 >> cuz [snorts] I agree with what you've 8:52 just said. I mean, that sounds to me as 8:54 though a young man is being really 8:56 responsible. He's wanting to explore. 8:58 He's using 9:00 a substance. Whatever anybody may feel 9:03 about that, I don't care. He's using a 9:06 substance 9:08 >> to help him emotionally. 9:10 >> Yeah. To help him navigate a space of 9:12 >> Yeah. to deal with a traumatic act in 9:15 his life. He's not doing it 9:17 >> He's not doing it for the way most 9:18 people might do to escape for fun to get 9:21 a be with a crowd, etc., etc. There's 9:24 none of that attached to it at all by 9:26 the sounds of things. 9:27 >> Well, it's the opposite escaping. I 9:28 mean, he's going into it. 9:30 >> He's having a look and exploring that 9:32 and and that blows me away. That's why 9:34 I'm like, "Yeah, 9:35 >> that's wonderful." 9:36 >> Um, 9:37 >> so for you then, 9:40 you're a young bloke 9:43 [snorts] in Stockport growing up 9:47 with a very loving but badtempered dad. 9:51 >> Yeah. 9:51 >> And you're seeing what's, you know, your 9:54 and you're experiencing 9:57 living within that environment, which 9:59 can't have been easy a lot of the time. 10:01 >> Oh, no. It was um [snorts] 10:04 so I I grew up watching films with me 10:06 dad cuz he was a big drinker. I've got a 10:09 really early recolorations where we had 10:12 like a flight of stairs and then the 10:13 back door went out and a step into the 10:15 garden. So I I remember him 10:17 [clears throat] coming in not being able 10:19 to stand being violently sick and me 10:20 rubbing his back as a young kid to help 10:23 him be sick. Um 10:25 >> and then 10:27 >> there's load there's so much stuff. So 10:30 my mom was working like three four 10:32 cleaning jobs like to make ends meet and 10:35 I think she got she got caught once cuz 10:37 she was working in a in a chip shop and 10:40 um so the person came around to to the 10:43 house and he said I've heard you've been 10:45 working in a chip shop and she was like 10:46 no I've not been working in a chip shop 10:48 and he said well that's funny you 10:49 because you served me last night. 10:51 >> Oh [laughter] 10:52 oh oh 10:54 red-handed. So it she would she was just 10:58 trying to cope with what was being 11:01 dealt. She was constantly. So we had 11:03 this lone shark who used to come around 11:05 and he was lovely like Malcolm. 11:08 Um 11:08 >> that's not two words I thought I'd hear 11:10 together. 11:10 >> And he was he was lovely cuz he was and 11:13 that was this was back in the day. So 11:14 and he was a gay man. So he he like he 11:17 used to get jumped all the time cuz 11:19 people knew that he was and but the the 11:22 interest rates were just it just kept 11:24 people in that debt in order. So so I 11:26 used to I grew up hiding behind seties 11:29 you know when we saw him walking don't 11:30 answer the door don't answer the door 11:33 >> you know. 11:33 >> So you've got layer upon layer upon 11:35 layer of trauma as a kid. 11:37 >> Yeah. And then seeing the violence that 11:39 was 11:41 >> So what what behaviors did that manifest 11:43 in you? It's gave me a massive sense of 11:46 powerlessness. No, no control cuz I want 11:50 a protector but I can't 11:52 >> cuz when I tried I I got the same. Um 11:58 and it's sad because if you met him 12:01 you'd really like him. Um [snorts] he 12:04 just did his own stuff. 12:05 >> Yeah. 12:05 >> That's where my forgiveness comes. 12:07 >> Yeah. I understand that he was imperfect 12:09 and he he wasn't an he didn't do that on 12:13 wasn't like a narcissist like knows that 12:16 behavior and then implements it on 12:18 purpose. He was just lost. Um didn't 12:22 know how to deal with life. Found his 12:24 comfort in alcohol 12:26 >> cuz when he went to the pub, he was like 12:27 the joy. Not towards the end cuz he died 12:30 from alcoholism. It was it's wrote down 12:33 as um a brain hemorrhage, but he had 12:37 pancitis for like 12 years. Yeah. 12:40 >> You know, his stomach was massive. 12:42 >> So, it may well have been the brain 12:43 hemorrhage that actually 12:45 >> Yeah. It was an accumulation of the poor 12:47 health, physical poor health. It wasn't 12:50 just So, it was smoking, not eating 12:52 healthy, not drinking, no exercise. It 12:54 was all of it. 12:55 >> But he drank cider, so he it rotted him. 12:59 Um, 13:01 >> yeah. Rough. 13:01 >> Um, so growing up in that, 13:05 >> I don't I don't remember having any 13:06 wallpaper. I think I had some wallpaper 13:08 on one wall. I had a wardrobe. It didn't 13:10 have any hangers in it. Um, 13:14 carpets. So, I grew up with like my mom 13:16 used to smoke and instead of putting the 13:19 cigarettes out, she would stand them up 13:22 [snorts] 13:23 and, you know, so they burn out. 13:25 >> So, I've got images now. I can I can see 13:27 it. I can smell it. I can 13:28 [clears throat] see the 13:30 >> the top of the banister on the top of 13:31 the stairs where she would put 13:34 cigarettes while she's ironing um along 13:37 the side and and the cigarette would 13:39 then burn. 13:40 >> So there's them marks. 13:41 >> So you had your brown marks on top of 13:43 the rail. Um [clears throat] 13:46 I think what hit me the other day was I 13:48 I realized this to me partner and she 13:51 was like, "Oh my Oh." And um I was never 13:54 read to 13:56 um never 13:58 >> never 13:58 >> and that will come into later on in the 14:00 story. But 14:02 >> mom couldn't read. 14:03 >> Your mom couldn't read. 14:04 >> No, not really. 14:05 >> Which 14:06 >> she was literate so I can't. And that's 14:08 another forgiveness when I started to 14:11 cuz I was angry at my mom and dad for 14:14 quite a long time. Um but then I sort of 14:18 it was when I this is why I was 14:20 fascinated with certain principles 14:22 within that 12 steps even though I'm not 14:25 massive there these negative elements to 14:27 certain things and these positives and 14:29 that's what sent me on my pathway 14:30 because there was a certain 14:33 there was a shift in me which allowed me 14:35 to go from perception to perspective and 14:38 it was allowed me to see other people's 14:41 rather than my own perception had to it 14:43 gave me a better angle and Then I 14:45 started to see 14:47 how was she going to teach me how to 14:49 read when she can't read. 14:50 >> Yeah. 14:51 >> She can't 14:52 >> She did the best with what she had, 14:53 didn't she? By the sounds of things. 14:54 >> Transmit something she hasn't got. Can't 14:56 she can't pass some on. 14:57 >> No. She's working three jobs and still
School struggles, learning difficulties, and early escapes 15:00 looking after the house. She was trying 15:01 her best, wasn't she? 15:02 >> And balancing. 15:04 >> Yeah. 15:05 >> Yeah. So 15:07 when you became a teenager, did that you 15:10 know you 15:11 >> school was 15:13 school [clears throat] was really um 15:15 traumatic for me because I I think I 15:18 would have been diagnosed with ADHD at 15:20 that 15:22 classrooms 15:23 inability to read concentration is it's 15:28 quite strange because I've started to 15:30 since I've finished the PhD and having 15:32 that like massive pressure whil working, 15:36 being a parent, looking after mom and 15:37 all that X, Y, and Zed. Um, I've 15:40 [clears throat] started to realize that 15:42 I'm I'm very heightened to certain 15:44 stimulus. Um, especially noise, tapping. 15:49 Oh, and I knew it was there present 15:51 because I struggled with it through 15:52 union and distraction. 15:55 Um, I knew it was when I did my GSE 15:58 because because I got a PLP. I got a 16:01 learning difficulty. They put me in they 16:03 said, "Would you like a private room?" 16:04 And they took me out this very quiet 100 16:06 people in a hall to put me into a room 16:09 full of 10 people typing. 16:12 >> Oh, clack clack clack clack clack. 16:16 >> Yeah, it was horrendous. So I started to 16:18 become aware of that more. Um I'm sorry 16:21 I diverted from the question. It was 16:22 around home life. 16:24 >> Yeah, it was just exploring you as a 16:26 teenager and how you let off steam. 16:29 >> Well, my let off steam I started using 16:31 substances quite early on. I was I'm I'm 16:33 very I was very sporty. I'm very active. 16:36 I would find things. So I did 16:39 gymnastics. I don't know why they ever 16:40 got rid of the baggers, the British 16:42 Gymnastics Association 16:44 >> in primary schools cuz that just 16:46 conditioned me as a as a child. My 16:48 balance. Oh, I loved it being bodily 16:53 >> energetic exercise. 16:55 Um, so after doing baggers and I loved 16:58 dancing in primary school, so I was like 17:01 the lead country dancer, which took us 17:04 out. Yeah. Uh, and I sang in a choir. I 17:07 was like I was solo. I sang in like most 17:09 churches in in Stockport. And um, 17:14 >> so I was very active in that. And it's 17:17 quite Mrs. Comey. Oh, bless her. so she 17:20 would know. 17:22 Um, 17:25 >> bless you, darling. Taking you back to 17:28 troubled times. 17:29 >> It's all right. It's just, um, 17:33 I so had to go in primary school with 17:35 like black eyes. 17:38 So, she was like, uh, 17:43 she knew. I think a lot of teachers 17:45 knew. I really do. Um, but Mrs. comes to 17:48 you. She's a dinner lady, so she used to 17:50 save me food. [snorts] 17:53 She used to shout me, "Come over, 17:55 >> come over. Got you some after lunch and 17:57 stuff like that." She was lovely. Still 18:00 see a lad now. Um, still say hello. Um, 18:04 but it's that I think I always wanted to 18:07 I always had dreams of like reading. I 18:10 wanted to go to see artwork and I wanted 18:12 to go to the theater and stuff like but 18:15 um 18:16 >> but the circumstances you were growing 18:18 up in 18:18 >> Yeah. 18:19 >> weren't allowing that to happen. 18:21 >> No, they just the opportunity weren't 18:22 there. 18:23 >> Yeah. 18:24 >> Um 18:24 >> so you started you said [clears throat] 18:26 you started substances. 18:28 >> Well, but just going back to that the 18:30 film was a really it really it was a 18:32 medium. It took me somewhere to like 18:34 fantasy. It really took me out. So I 18:37 think that was my first escape. 18:39 >> Okay. Okay. It was like 18:40 >> that's why 18:41 >> through film and and and through art um 18:44 [snorts] in terms of 18:46 >> films on TV or so I used to and this is 18:50 why Norway is on my uh to-do list quite 18:53 early. I was going to go in lockdown cuz 18:54 there's a research associate 18:57 [clears throat] who said come over and 18:58 I'll take you on the I pronounce it 19:00 wrong the fjords. 19:02 >> Yeah. Um and he said, "We'll go on a 19:04 kayaking and I'll take you." Cuz I still 19:06 remember being up my cuz every Sunday we 19:08 would go to my nana and granddad's home 19:10 and all the family would have dinner 19:12 there and we'd all lie down, me and my 19:14 sister, it would lie on the the the rug 19:17 in front of the fire and everyone had 19:20 Sunday dinner. Top button would come 19:22 undone and everyone relaxes and I 19:25 remember watching the Vikings. Do you 19:28 remember all that with um Tony? 19:32 >> It's Kurt Douglas and Tony. He's 19:34 >> I'm rubbish with names and things like 19:36 that. 19:37 >> There's a there's a beginning in that 19:38 that film and uh it's got a very it's 19:44 and the waterfalls coming down. So 19:45 that's always been that's always like 19:47 takes me somewhere. 19:49 >> Wonderful. 19:49 >> So that was a one escape sort of thing. 19:51 and obviously 19:53 >> playing out and 19:54 >> and I lived near some sort of uh a 19:57 quarry 19:59 >> so I'd be I'd be ever out there. I would 20:01 be [clears throat] Yeah. Forever sort of 20:04 seeking never at home. 20:05 >> So I mean there people have 20:06 >> home wasn't a safe space. 20:08 >> No. No. I mean people of our sort of age 20:11 used to play in building sites and 20:13 quaries and in the woods and things like 20:15 that which kids nowadays 20:17 >> don't seem to, do they? 20:19 >> It was like a BMX track up there. It's 20:20 great. Yeah. 20:21 >> Um, 20:23 so yeah, and then 20:25 substance cuz I grew up around alcohol. 20:27 I grew up in a pub. So I was a very good 20:29 pool player. So I grew up being in them 20:32 environment. It wasn't anything. 20:34 >> So it was normal 20:35 >> normal for me 20:36 >> to have a drink. 20:36 >> Yeah. It was like the other kids never 20:39 really spoke about that. Um, 20:43 and then I first I first experimented on 20:46 deodorant 20:48 >> to spray 20:49 >> putting it in a plastic bag. Yeah. And 20:50 then hailing it. 20:52 >> I know. Used to go home with like white 20:53 rings around me 20:55 >> about 11 something. 20:57 >> Oh my goodness. 20:58 >> Yeah. And then gas. 21:01 >> Yeah. 21:01 >> That really takes you uh it takes you 21:04 somewhere. 21:05 >> And these were all your different roots 21:07 of 21:07 >> just Yeah. And then it was 21:09 >> being present in that environment. 21:11 >> Cannabis. cannabis took me and then um 21:15 and then that progressed into I think 21:17 mushrooms came around and 21:20 and then amphetamine but that was only 21:23 slight there cuz a lot of lads who were 21:24 using amphetamine were um there's like 21:26 older drug dealers who live close by and 21:29 they would they would take quite a big 21:31 amount to to work out. So they obviously 21:34 inject the gear instead and then they 21:38 have some wiz to uh to help pump iron. 21:42 Um 21:42 >> Wow. Wow. Wow. 21:44 >> So I had a little bit someone gave me 21:45 about an ounce to look after one said 21:47 store that in your house will and I at 21:49 it all. I was up for like 3 days. 21:51 [laughter] 21:53 >> I shouldn't laugh. 21:54 >> I think I think that's when I realized I 21:55 wasn't a very good drug dealer. 21:57 [laughter] 21:58 >> Thank goodness. 21:59 >> I just at everything. um escapism again 22:02 in it. What was I doing? Um 22:05 >> yeah. And did that take you through your 22:06 20ies? 22:08 >> That progressed. It was quite sad cuz 22:10 there was a lot of us who did quite a 22:12 lot of experimenting and we did quite a 22:14 lot um on the level of like Ollie's mate 22:17 Kyle. Bless him. Um 22:20 [snorts] but we were like so we do 22:24 concoctions but I'd also play football 22:25 so I was good at football. I got banned 22:28 from rugby at M Paul because um for 22:32 fighting and taking a chair leg on when 22:35 I got sent off. So I ran after he was 22:38 about 6'2 and I was obviously I'm quite 22:40 small. So imagine in secondary school 22:43 and lucky enough another teacher in 22:45 there, Mr. Jackson like saw that I 22:49 needed something. He ever played 22:50 football? And I was like no. and he took 22:53 me into under his under his wing and he 22:55 allowed me to play football which was I 22:57 was banned from everything. It's like 22:59 things in school where I was I remember 23:03 that I'd never been away, you know, 23:05 never been abroad, didn't have them 23:07 opportunities. And then I remember a 23:09 teacher coming in the class and saying, 23:13 "Who would like to go on a trip to 23:14 Germany?" And I was like, "Oh." My hand 23:17 was straight up and she put and everyone 23:19 put their hands up and she went, "You 23:21 can't go anywhere." 23:23 And uh put your hand down. 23:25 >> Whoa. 23:26 >> Yeah. And then she wondered why I locked 23:28 her in the cupboard. And now, 23:31 >> wow. 23:32 >> I had a psychologist quite early on in 23:34 in school as well. I was on report like 23:36 for and I think the the school did the 23:40 best cuz it kept me on report for like 5 23:42 years. And back then you would either go 23:44 to Tatch the Ledge or Tatch the Lodge. 23:47 >> It was like the troubled kids schools as 23:50 we might call them. 23:51 >> And um and I had [clears throat] that 23:52 and they brought a therapist in, Mrs. 23:54 McCall. It's weird how you and she took 23:57 me down these steps in some sort of 23:58 meditation stuff and to a beach and it 24:00 was yeah she was good. 24:03 >> Um 24:04 >> so school wasn't your best place then 24:06 was it? You didn't get let's say the 24:09 full benefit from the education that was 24:11 offered to you? 24:12 >> No because like Mr. Davidson. He was my 24:14 foam tutor. I knew when I went to Maple 24:16 cuz you get picked out in a in a 24:19 classroom. I I saw this big 6'4 24:23 meter Jordy crooked teeth. I knew he was 24:28 going to be my [laughter] teacher and he 24:30 was. But do you know what? He was he was 24:32 actually he was absolutely lovely. 24:34 >> Good. 24:34 >> He was um he was a gentle giant but he 24:37 was also a geography teacher. He's peed 24:39 but geography teacher. Okay. And he 24:40 called me Devon for like three four 24:42 years until I realized 24:45 >> next next to my second name I was 24:46 [laughter] like 24:49 >> I thought 24:50 >> so he'd given you a nickname [snorts] a 24:51 sign of you know there affection isn't 24:54 it? 24:54 >> Well he'd whistle he go used to whistle 24:57 through his teeth so and he [snorts] go 24:58 I can't do that. 24:59 >> He'd go Devon you had too much orange 25:01 juice again. 25:03 >> So he knew 25:04 >> you know what I mean? I didn't know what 25:05 he 25:06 >> Yeah, 25:07 >> they knew my behavior was like really 25:10 It's quite sad because 25:13 I remember getting told to get out of 25:15 the class in Cornwall. You're going to 25:17 have to leave. Um you're going into and 25:20 this is what it was nicknamed then. It's 25:22 quite bad. It's Remy. You're going into 25:24 remedial. And I remember it now 106. I 25:28 know exact I can picture where it is. 25:30 >> Yeah. Um, and I remember questioning, 25:33 why am I being taken out of here? And he 25:35 went, well, there's 32 kids in here, 25:37 >> and it's 33 kids in here. If I can take 25:40 you out, I can teach 32. 25:42 >> Right. It sounds as to me as though you 25:45 had like the desire to learn, but 25:47 because of everything that was going on 25:49 for you, you just couldn't. Is that 25:50 fair? 25:51 >> Yeah. Um, I didn't have the capability 25:53 of processing. I didn't Yeah. I think I 25:56 think looking well history's proven it 25:58 to be different but um 26:00 >> but that's changed considerably to where 26:02 you are now hasn't it? So let's get 26:04 through 26:05 >> well just going back to that Mrs. 26:06 English was she that 106 was really a 26:10 really good space for me. She had she 26:13 was the oldest teacher in the and she 26:15 just had such a calming demeanor about 26:19 her. It was and there was four of us in 26:21 there and none of us acted out for her. 26:24 >> Wow. none of us 26:26 her teaching style was just and I got 26:29 and I understood that like you know you 26:32 get one kid who's disrupting and you're 26:34 trying to teach I understood that um 26:37 later on in life not at the time 26:41 >> so yeah I always wanted to to read and 26:44 stuff like that so 26:45 >> so what did you do after school then so 26:48 >> oh excuse me 26:49 >> that's quite all right so you you were 26:51 put down into the remedial classes but 26:53 you did sit your GCS sees. 26:55 >> Uh, no, 26:56 >> no, 26:56 >> I missed quite a few and I remember it 26:59 was um, 27:01 >> oh god, what is it? It's um, I can't 27:04 think of the term where you have A, B, 27:05 C, or D. Um, 27:07 >> oh, your grades. 27:08 >> Well, you know, you have questions, 27:10 multiple choice questions, but you just 27:11 have to like and I remember sat in and I 27:14 was just coloring them in because they 27:15 were literally listed A, B, C, or E. A, 27:18 B, C, or E. And I remember just coloring 27:20 patterns because I couldn't read the 27:22 bloody question. 27:24 ah 27:25 >> mostly. 27:25 >> So it was a pointless exercise for you 27:28 really then wasn't it? 27:29 >> So mine was always memory of the words. 27:31 >> Yeah. 27:32 >> Not the pronunciation. 27:34 >> Um so it was very difficult for me to 27:39 >> if I don't comprehend a sentence I'm 27:41 never going to be able to answer, am I? 27:43 >> No. No. Of course you're not. No, no, 27:44 no, no. And that's a big criticism of 27:48 the education system as well, isn't it? 27:50 >> Yeah. Wow. 27:51 >> I know it's very dididactic and I mean 27:53 it's slightly different now maybe. I 27:56 don't know. Let's not go there. That's 27:57 too big a topic. That's a big rabbit. 27:59 >> I don't think you get talked critically 28:00 at think until you do like an MSE or a 28:02 mast's level or something. So 28:04 >> So you left school without 28:06 qualifications. 28:08 >> Yeah. And what happened then? 28:10 >> Well, I went into 28:12 um physical labor cuz I was good. I was 28:15 I was good at football. I was good at um 28:18 exercise. I was healthy. Um, so I went
Substance use, addiction, and relationship breakdown 28:21 into I worked for Adidas 28:24 >> when I was 16. That's when I realized 28:26 what a UB4 what UB40 stood for the band 28:29 >> cuz a UB40 is when you get put on the 28:32 doll. 28:32 >> Yeah. 28:32 >> And I never knew [laughter] that 28:34 >> until I got a UB4 cuz I love UB40 at the 28:36 time. Um, yeah, I got maybe done there 28:40 and then I worked there with my sister 28:42 and then I went washing hair for my 28:45 auntie. So she said, "You want a job?" 28:47 And I went, "What doing?" She was like 28:49 washing hair in the old days. I was 28:51 like, "All right, cool." And then while 28:54 I was doing that, she said, "Um, do you 28:56 want to go to college?" And I went, "Do 28:57 I get a day off?" And she went, "Yeah, 28:58 all right. I'll go college." [laughter] 29:01 And then I was like, so I went like 29:03 Pierre, was it Pierre Ging? Yeah. In 29:07 Manchester. And I taught I learned how 29:09 to It was quite interesting because I It 29:12 was like I wanted to There was 29:14 insecurities then because I didn't know 29:15 how to speak to to girls. So I used to I 29:18 used to look into magazines and like so 29:20 I could talk to girls about their hair 29:22 or something like that. 29:23 >> Um 29:25 >> so you stud them down as well very 29:27 quickly. [laughter] 29:30 >> So you were studying a hairdressing type 29:32 thing at college where you 29:33 >> qualified as a hairdresser. Yeah. 29:35 >> Yeah. 29:35 >> Purple rinses, blue rinses, anything. 29:37 >> And was that a better thing to do 29:39 because a lot of it was practical? 29:42 >> I don't I didn't like hairdressing. 29:44 [laughter] 29:45 I I only I only went to college because 29:46 I got a day off. 29:48 >> Yeah, fair dos. But just the learning 29:50 experience, did you think you learn more 29:51 because it was more practical? 29:53 >> Oh, definitely. I think um my career now 29:56 is practice based. It really is. Um 29:58 >> I like the interaction. Um 30:01 >> I think it was just basically that I had 30:04 no desire to open my own shop and 30:07 continue perming hair and stuff. Um I 30:09 always wanted something. 30:11 I always I did I it's quite strange 30:13 because I I always saw saw through 30:16 materialism. 30:18 I used to always like when people used 30:21 like that don't make you a better person 30:23 just cuz you're wearing a 30:25 >> lacrosse things or I remember having 30:27 them arguments quite early on. Um so I 30:31 think I've always been seeking me. I 30:33 think I've always been I've always had a 30:35 a deeper sense like Ollie's very 30:39 >> I wasn't like him at 8 19 but I was very 30:41 inquisitive. 30:42 >> Yeah. 30:43 >> Questioning everything. Um 30:45 [clears throat] 30:46 >> so you didn't stick it out at your 30:47 aunties? 30:48 >> No. It was quite sad because my granddad 30:50 died and um I don't really like saying 30:52 this um if my auntie ever hears it but 30:55 my grand I was really close to my 30:57 grandad cuz my mom used to go there um 31:00 all the time. We used to go every 31:02 Sunday. know I I spent that's why I was 31:04 really close to my sister. I spent most 31:06 of my my time there. Um and when he 31:09 died, they left me at the shop. 31:12 I know. And it was uh 31:16 >> and I get it though. I understand that 31:17 as well. That's where the healing comes. 31:20 Um I know I know why she just ran off. 31:23 Her dad was dead. You know, she didn't 31:25 think of me in that sense. So I don't 31:27 ever hold anything against her on that. 31:29 But that feeling of like 31:32 >> I remember when my granddad died also on 31:34 my mom's side. Um 31:38 and we used to go there quite a lot as 31:40 well and I loved them both dearly. Manor 31:42 and granddad. Um and I was told that I 31:46 was too young to go to the funeral 31:50 and I was early early teens. I was 31:53 definitely at secondary school. Can't 31:54 remember exactly how old I was but you 31:56 know definitely at secondary school. 31:59 And I turned up for school that morning. 32:00 I thought, I'm not staying here. And so 32:02 I wagged it. I took the day off. I was 32:04 just so upset. 32:05 >> Yeah. 32:06 >> So I I have some appreciation of that. 32:09 So what after that then? That's 32:11 obviously a pivotal moment for you, your 32:12 granddad passing. 32:14 >> Um cuz well, he was like 32:17 the [clears throat] significant people 32:18 who've been in my life and uh it's quite 32:21 sad because they've all gone. Mhm. 32:24 >> Um 32:25 so that sense of caregiver, he was a 32:28 caregiver. Um he was safe space for me. 32:31 >> Yeah. 32:32 >> Uh loved him. Like so I he would take me 32:35 he sort of like this is what I say about 32:37 my sister experiencing a really nice 32:39 thing because 32:40 >> he would let me go in his shed where he 32:41 had tools and just go in and cut some 32:43 wood or he he'd take me in the 32:45 greenhouse and show me that he's he's 32:46 growing tomatoes and stuff like that. 32:49 Real different. My nana was just 32:50 stunning as a as a person, you know, our 32:54 family because we're all quite um big 32:58 [clears throat] in a in a certain sense, 32:59 but I noticed that love was shown 33:02 through food and because my nana is 33:05 Italian, they were Italian immigrants in 33:08 Manchester in Little Italy in Ankos, 33:10 which was like probably one of the most 33:12 deprived areas in the 30s and stuff. 33:15 >> [clears throat] 33:15 >> Um, I know there's a lot of 33:16 discrimination against the Irish, but 33:18 the um the Italians got it as well. Um, 33:22 >> and it's quite sad because, 33:25 um, well, 33:27 my when I had my second lad with my 33:31 exartner, Leanne, um, we I always said, 33:34 "You can you carried baby, you can have 33:36 the the first name, and and I'll get the 33:40 second name." And and she didn't like 33:41 the second name. And I was like, I want 33:43 him to be called Carlo cuz that's my 33:45 great greatgrandfather who was an 33:47 immigrant into Scotland but was never 33:49 nationalized. 33:51 He then because Mussolini changed sides, 33:55 they all got arrested 33:58 and put in turn. Um, and then he was 34:02 escorted by his son 34:05 who was in the fire service, I think, if 34:07 I get it, but he was born. So, he was 34:10 nationalized, 34:11 >> right? And I think it I don't know the 34:14 numbers but a large amount about 500 34:16 Italian 700 Germans all got put on a 34:18 boat called the Andor Star which there 34:21 was lots of controversy over this 34:22 because it was painted battleship gray I 34:24 think and stuff like that and it got 34:26 sunk to go around and they all died. 34:29 >> Wow. I know. 34:30 >> But when me nana told me the name I 34:35 didn't know she had early onset 34:36 dementia. Right. So it turns out that it 34:39 it would maybe not be his name. So I had 34:42 to go and tell Leanne that I'd actually 34:44 [laughter] called 34:46 which she didn't want in the first 34:47 place. So um it's just 34:50 >> what a story behind that as well. 34:51 >> I know I've totally go off. You have to 34:54 pull me back please because I'm 34:55 >> I will do that my darling. Do not you 34:57 worry cuz I want to move forward. 35:00 >> Okay. 35:00 >> Thank you for prompting me to prompt 35:02 you. Um, I want to move forward to where 35:07 things started to really change for you. 35:09 >> I think it was the deaths really. 35:12 >> Do you think it was just after your 35:13 granddad or 35:15 >> there was a lot because of because of 35:18 a lot of substances. We took a lot of 35:20 substances. There was a massive amount 35:21 of mental health happening to all of us. 35:23 And when I was about 19, my 35:28 um 35:30 the paranoia in them was horrendous with 35:33 us all. And my closest my best mate 35:36 tried to take his own life. So he took 35:38 like 50 on trips and like yeah a massive 35:42 amount. And uh 35:44 he survived, but sadly he's um 35:48 >> he's he's still suffering today on that. 35:50 And I still see him. It breaks me out 35:51 every time I see him. And um he's still 35:54 there and he's that person but part of 35:56 him went in that. 35:57 >> So after that we all split. Um and I 36:01 went into 36:03 um it was quite clear as well cuz at the 36:06 time rave scenes came about. Um, so 36:09 ecstasy was around and it was like a 36:12 quite clear split between groups and 36:14 demographics of these groups like so a 36:16 lot of people would either go to heroin 36:18 and crack cocaine after the clubs or 36:20 after this 36:22 these sort of this um era or you'd go 36:27 into drinking and cocaine. and I went 36:29 into drinking. 36:31 Um, and I went into into the building 36:34 trade. So, I I went working for uh a 36:38 shop fitting company. 36:40 >> Okay. 36:40 >> Um, cuz I was good with my hands. Just 36:42 >> sounds like a potentially quite 36:44 dangerous mix there though. Building 36:46 trade. I'm thinking like, you know, 36:48 heights and power tools and drinking. 36:52 >> Oh, yeah. 36:53 >> They don't sound like the best 36:54 combination. 36:55 >> Oh, one of the lads who there is a great 36:57 shot fitter. He he was he would have a 36:59 half a whiskey mixed in milk every 37:02 morning and drink it and he'd suck 37:05 cloves of garlic 37:06 >> and ride a motorbike. [laughter] 37:10 >> Criy. So did this was this sort of like 37:15 >> a period of your life that was going to 37:18 come to a head at some point and you 37:19 were going to crash? 37:20 >> I No, I think that was like the start of 37:22 the wor It was like the worst. It 37:26 started off quite bad. I thought I found 37:29 a solution by drinking because when I 37:32 had a drink, it took away all that 37:34 paranoia, took away all that anxiety. 37:38 [clears throat] The real temporary 37:39 solution. 37:40 >> Yeah. Dutch courage, it was that bump. 37:43 >> And in like literature like 12step 37:46 philosophy and that sort of stuff, they 37:47 say that when it's quite common that I I 37:49 had arrived, you know, and it's that I'm 37:53 all right. 37:54 Um, 37:56 so [snorts] that became that. But 37:59 I [clears throat] remember my dad saying 38:00 to me quite early on, "You and drink 38:02 don't go, Paul." 38:04 Cuz I would act out, 38:06 >> right? 38:07 >> Uh, yeah. It was like everyone used to 38:10 say, "You can't handle your drink cuz 38:11 you're only little." And I was like, 38:12 "Oh, yeah, it must be that." 38:14 >> And it wasn't. It was just that once you 38:17 been through what? Well, yeah. Once I 38:19 started though, it was like that. I 38:20 couldn't get enough of that. 38:22 >> Chasing That was your addiction was it 38:24 then? 38:25 >> It started into that then. Yeah. And 38:27 then that became problematic in itself 38:29 because I would act out, I would fight, 38:32 I would say things. I wouldn't get up 38:33 for work. Um, 38:36 so then I started using cocaine to level 38:39 the drink. 38:40 >> Oh wow. 38:41 >> Cuz it puts you on an even keel. So you 38:43 can drink but you you're not 38:46 totally out of control um into blackout. 38:49 >> And that's an expensive combination, 38:52 isn't it? Well, I'd met I'd met Leanne 38:54 though um when she I was 22 or 21 and 38:59 she was Yeah, I was 22, she was 17. So, 39:02 it was like 5 years. And I thought she 39:05 would help me because she was she didn't 39:09 drink, she didn't take drugs. 39:12 She showed me love, comfort straight 39:14 away. Um and I thought that was like, 39:19 yeah, it gave me a sense. I don't I like 39:21 when I say I think at that time I don't 39:23 know what what I actually think at that 39:24 time. You can speculate that. 39:26 >> Yeah, absolutely. 39:27 >> Um but yeah, that gave me a different a 39:30 different sort of state of hope to what 39:33 had been my life. 39:36 [clears throat] 39:36 >> Um and then that 39:39 it didn't last long because my drinking 39:41 became problematic. 39:43 >> Yeah. Um and then we decided to have 39:46 children to 39:50 I would promise that I would change 39:51 after we had this responsibility. Um 39:57 and looking back having children just 39:59 compounded my inability to live really 40:03 which I was already struggling with 40:04 anyway. 40:05 >> Impossed well that was about 22 so it 40:09 carried on. It carried on for another 10 40:12 years. Okay. 40:13 >> Just getting worse and because and then 40:16 towards when she when we had 40:20 Oliver. So it must have been 40:23 um Ollie was Yeah. when she was pregnant 40:26 with Oliver 40:28 and the year before I'd started to 40:30 someone had showed me how to wash 40:32 cocaine to crack. 40:34 >> Okay. 40:35 >> Yeah. So then I was off on the crack and 40:38 that's a different beast. 40:41 That's like 40:42 >> I've seen things on television about how 40:45 dangerous it is. 40:46 >> Yeah. The alcohol's like cuz alcohol 40:50 lean used to always say it was I was 40:52 there was a predictable unpredictability 40:55 of how I would be. You just you did not 40:59 know. And then once I cuz I had I used 41:02 to have these fears of like waking up 41:04 cuz I was a morning drinker and my mom 41:06 was in it with me. So my mom was my 41:08 drinking partner. 41:09 >> Oh wow. 41:10 Kushid. So when I going back 2002, my 41:14 dad died through that and that was a 41:17 massive 41:19 >> um massive thing cuz I'd lost 41:22 >> Yeah. 41:23 >> my role model um and I'd lost my older 41:26 role model in my grandad. 41:30 >> Also goes back to my grandma before that 41:32 losing her was another significant. But 41:34 um so I used to it got to the point 41:37 where I first started daily drinking in 41:40 L in 41:43 oh god what's it called in angles can't 41:46 >> what's 41:46 >> oh the bridge 41:48 >> what's it yeah but what's that area 41:50 called it's uh we did the university I 41:52 was working there doing the university 41:53 ripping the floors up and putting new 41:54 floors down 41:56 >> and that was the first time I started 41:58 because you're in that building trade 42:00 the drinking was a very cultural thing 42:02 so I used to play for the pill team on a 42:04 on a Monday night. I did some on a all 42:06 involved alcohol. 42:08 >> So when we used to do that and you drink 42:10 every night when you're when you're 42:11 working away in digs, but then I'd 42:14 started in the afternoon and that's when 42:16 I started to notice along that with then 42:20 obviously smoking crack towards the end 42:24 was uh was and and obviously smoking 42:27 heroin. So 42:28 >> were the hard drugs, the cracking, the 42:31 heroin, what eventually became your 42:32 undoing and took you 42:34 >> alcohol. 42:35 >> So it was that that took you into 42:37 >> My one go to was alcohol always. 42:40 >> So when did you get to the point where 42:43 you were like, "This has to stop. I'm 42:45 going to go into recovery. I'm going to 42:47 do the 12 steps." When did that come? 42:49 >> I think I I was I was searching to 42:51 change constant. I'd get in psychosis 42:54 and write on the wall what I wanted to 42:56 do. Like marry, learn how to read, learn 43:01 well, it wasn't that. It was learn how 43:02 to spell cuz when I got my mom out of 43:05 that house, me and my friend went 43:06 around, it was still on the wall. 43:08 >> Wow. 43:08 >> Learn kung fu. It was like bit psychos, 43:11 but there was a lot of truth in that. 43:13 Um, 43:14 learn how to dance, sing, stuff like 43:16 that. Um, 43:18 so it got it got quite when the when the 43:21 crack had a hole for a few years. That 43:23 was the worst time. Crack will take you 43:25 there quicker than alcohol will. I I 43:28 believe it took me to a a lower point 43:30 very quickly because it hits you 43:32 financially. The deceit around that. 43:34 >> Yeah. 43:35 >> You know, it's like so I used to play 43:37 for a quite decent football. So I used 43:39 to train on a on a Thursday night. the 43:41 drinking had progressed, but I could 43:43 train at a level by drinking some shorts 43:46 and or quarter bottle of vodka or 43:48 whiskey or whatever I could get in. And 43:49 the lads who were training at like 43:51 semi-pros, they'd be like, "You stink of 43:54 real, man." And I'm like, "Nah, nice. 43:55 It's from the night before." You know, 43:57 I'd have to lie. So, I was constantly 44:00 living in a lie 44:01 >> of deceit. 44:03 And that is just so trying to get out of 44:07 it but not know how to get out of that 44:09 >> just perpetuates you using that to 44:12 escape that feeling. So it's such a 44:14 vicious cycle of 44:16 >> Was there a significant event that 44:18 occurred? 44:19 >> Well, I got 44:19 >> it drew the line in the sand. 44:21 >> Yeah. Being really honest, didn't I? As 44:23 well. Well, I got there were big things 44:26 what happened. So, I got done for drink 44:28 driving and uh cuz I'd tell myself that 44:31 I was going out, but subconsciously I 44:34 knew what I was doing. It was on in 44:36 there. 44:37 >> I had an argument with Leanne. I said, 44:39 "I'm going to my mom's cuz my mom was." 44:41 So, I used to I used to ring my mom cuz 44:44 my mom was drinking and I'd say, "Me and 44:47 Lyanna are coming up at 2:00." And she'd 44:49 go, "What in about 2:00?" And I'd say, 44:51 "Come in at 2:00." She'd go, "Oh, right. 44:54 I'll put your two double large whiskies 44:56 behind the toilet downstairs. 44:59 So, she was in it with me. 45:00 >> Rouses, 45:03 >> you know, she was in it. She was in that 45:05 deceit. Um, 45:08 >> and I think cuz I went had an argument 45:11 with Leanne. Couldn't handle that life. 45:14 Went towards my mom's. Went in a pub in 45:16 the morning, knocked on at 9:00, got in. 45:19 And lucky enough, someone rang the 45:20 police when I left cuz I don't remember 45:22 leaving. And I don't remember having a 45:24 fight. I got in the van. I started to be 45:27 sick cuz my work's van 45:30 uh conked out, went unconscious. The 45:34 reason why I know all this is it's in 45:35 the police report. 45:36 >> Okay. Yeah. 45:38 >> Then I turned the van on to drive to my 45:40 mom's which is about 500 yards up the 45:42 road 45:44 >> and then the police tried to stop me. 45:47 >> Um and I got NFA with it. No further 45:50 action because they watched me. They got 45:53 they got a phone call. They watched me 45:55 then get in a van then be sick then wait 45:58 until I wake up before the they should 46:01 have intervened as soon as that I walked 46:03 to that soon as I had them keys in my 46:05 hand. 46:05 >> Yeah. 46:06 >> You know cuz it was a police chase. 46:08 >> Wow. 46:09 >> And I sort of come to my senses within 46:11 this chase and I was like what am I 46:13 doing? 46:14 >> Right. 46:14 >> I thought what am I doing? 46:15 >> Bit of a Eureka moment. 46:17 >> Whoa. What am I doing? And because I'd 46:20 went up, I drove at a policeman. Um 46:24 uh and then as the other policeman come 46:27 around the corner, I was like, "I'm 46:29 sorry, mate. I've just I don't know what 46:30 I'm doing. Um I've just come to my 46:32 senses." And he went, "Wow, mate. You" 46:34 And the first policeman was like, "Wow, 46:36 mate. You didn't have take off there." 46:37 He was like, 46:39 >> he was dead. The other one just battered 46:40 me 46:41 >> rightly so cuz then could have killed 46:43 him. Um 46:46 that didn't even change me. 46:49 cuz I couldn't I want I wanted I wanted 46:53 but I didn't know how to get it out. Um 46:56 >> the turning point was 47:00 I' I'd have an argument I'd escape. 47:02 Leanne had find me. So I've had Leanne 47:05 knocking on the crack house. We're 6 47:08 months pregnant with me mom on crutches 47:11 with me van parked outside. And I'm 47:12 telling the guy, tell him not, hey, 47:15 that's the level of it where it destroys 47:17 sort of families. Um, and I'm not proud 47:20 of that. Um, 47:24 but it was not it was a I can't remember 47:26 when it was, but I was lay on the floor 47:28 and Lyanna had found me in my mom's 47:30 unconscious and um my mom was like 47:33 shugging me going, "You've got to get up 47:35 for work." Cuz they propped me up. They 47:37 would save me. um I needed to fall. Um 47:41 but they would keep me in work by 47:43 getting me up. Um and I remember 47:47 feeling shameful not to acknowledge open 47:50 my eyes because I know I'm in trouble 47:54 and I'm feeling pretty horrible in that 47:57 sense. I remember Leanne saying, "You 48:00 can't blame me. Don't have a going, 48:01 Barbara. 48:10 >> [snorts] 48:11 >> So much pain, darling. 48:14 And 48:14 >> it was it was loving cuz she said uh 48:18 he's not doing
Turning point and first steps into recovery 48:21 she said he's not doing this on purpose. 48:26 She said he's not well. 48:29 So it was Leanne that realized and 48:33 [snorts] 48:33 >> Yeah. 48:36 And then she went to [snorts] and then I 48:39 promise again I'm going to try and 48:40 change. I'll go go to drug and alcohol 48:43 services. I went to drug and alcohol 48:45 services. 48:47 Um and they told me to drink. 48:52 >> I've heard that coming off cold turkey 48:53 is not a good idea. 48:54 >> I know it's a drink down. It's to it's 48:56 to stop you having seizures if you level 48:59 and I get it. But that was a green light 49:02 to me. 49:03 >> Yeah. That was a that was a a thing of 49:07 uh and I can remember going outside and 49:09 saying Leanne I've got a drink and she 49:10 was like tell them to [ __ ] off 49:14 you can't drink. She knew 49:17 >> and I think I had I there was another 49:20 instance because I was seeking 49:21 treatment. I knew at that stage I said 49:24 Leanne I need I need to be taken out of 49:26 society. I can't be trusted cuz I would 49:29 give her control of the bank card. I 49:31 give her the money and 10 minutes later 49:33 when I meet itching for a drink or 49:35 something and then having a go at her 49:37 >> saying she's controlling or do you know 49:40 um and I remember getting I got arrested 49:44 for something um having a fight with a 49:46 police officer again uh a taxi and then 49:50 and someone saying to me um right we're 49:52 going to test you for okay and I was 49:54 like I've not cocaine any drugs and it 49:56 came up positive so they sent me to an 49:57 assessment rehab which later on in I've 50:01 started to work for 50:04 a turn. 50:04 >> Yeah. At that point though, it was like 50:07 >> I remember he put a healthy boundary in 50:09 I don't I said it to him one day um cuz 50:12 I went in and I went all right mate and 50:13 he went just let's get one thing 50:15 straight. I'm not your mate. And at that 50:17 point my door you know at that moment I 50:19 was open as a possibility and because it 50:23 was that I you mate that rejection bump 50:26 my wall come up again then. And then I 50:29 was like, "Fuck you then." 50:31 >> And off I went. Um, and I think it was 50:38 the darkness in my mind was the it was 50:42 it was my friend the turning point. I'm 50:43 starting to it was Johnny Schulz shorts 50:47 me. And he said, uh, it was after I'd 50:49 been on a bender and I'd got back in 50:51 work and I was feeling low and he was 50:53 like, it was very strange that day cuz I 50:55 was in this warehouse and I could it I 50:57 felt like the walls were coming in on me 50:59 like very much like a like a vibration. 51:03 And I remember him saying, "What is it? 51:05 What's your issue, Paul?" He said, 51:07 "You've got you've got somebody who 51:09 loves you. You've got a young boy. 51:12 You've got all your family adore you. 51:15 You're good at work. 51:17 And that was the moment when I just I 51:19 just I think I admit that I don't know. 51:23 >> I really don't know. 51:25 I was confused and I was I was done. And 51:28 that was my turning point. That 51:30 admittance that I uh I didn't know. 51:35 >> So now 51:37 >> Yeah. 51:39 >> I [snorts] first when I got to know you 51:41 was just Paul the Wellspring. 51:44 >> Oh yeah. 51:45 And 51:47 that was how I knew you but nothing else 51:49 for a while. Tell me about the 51:51 wellspring. 51:53 >> Right. I think the journey has to carry 51:54 on to why I'm there really. 51:57 >> Okay. 51:58 >> Yeah. So from so from that point there I 52:01 rang Alco anonymous and 52:04 this woman spoke to me in a way that I'd 52:06 never been spoken to ever. She 52:11 she knew exactly 52:14 or she expressed exactly how I felt in 52:18 her own experience 52:20 and her thought patterns and her 52:22 behavior and I just thought [ __ ] she 52:26 knows some there's some here. Um and 52:30 then a gentleman picked me up, Peter. He 52:32 he came around from the phone line. 52:34 Someone came around and took me to my 52:35 first meeting and he was just another 52:38 really lovely guy. Reminds me very much 52:40 of [snorts] the Mr. English in the 106 52:43 remedial. Um and he spoke about fear of 52:47 the boogeyman and fear and um and that 52:50 was the turning point. Um lucky enough, 52:53 they asked someone to take me through 52:55 the 12 steps. They took me through the 52:56 12 steps. Um, 53:00 and that's where I really got interested 53:02 in the 12 steps. I weren't too 53:03 interested in the social aspects of the 53:05 meetings and stuff like I really there 53:07 was something deeper and that's what 53:09 shifted me allowed me cuz I like to 53:12 start there really because that's 53:16 my perspective but shifted my perception 53:18 of people and understanding of why that 53:21 that they were all imperfect. 53:24 They didn't like do it on purpose. They 53:26 weren't horrible. 53:28 They weren't um cruel. 53:32 >> They just had their own imperfections. 53:34 >> Yeah. 53:35 >> And that that sent me on a way then to 53:38 just going myself. 53:41 That sent me on a pathway to wanting to 53:45 to learn to read. Well, wanted to go to 53:48 college. I wanted to do psychology 53:49 straight away. So, I jumped in, signed 53:52 up. I was working full-time. Harrison 53:55 was born. Ollie Harrison was one, Oliver 53:58 was three when I got sober and off 54:00 substances. 54:00 >> Congratulations, by the way. 54:02 >> Yeah. And um 54:06 I started maths and psychology. It's 54:09 funny that shied away from the one. Um 54:12 and I did GCSEs and Leanne did her 54:15 English GCSE at the same time. And she 54:17 had a onetoone with this lady called 54:19 Nikki Charles. She's significant. Um, 54:24 I remember bringing so I started then 54:26 got a job for Acorn Recovery Projects in 54:30 in Stockport and Manchester uh in the in 54:32 the housing and um I remember bringing a 54:35 Leanne brought the results down to us 54:37 cuz we got the results and I remember 54:40 opening them and Leanne passed and I had 54:44 failed and I remember Leanne crying and 54:48 me saying, "Why are you crying?" And she 54:51 was like, "Because I passed and you 54:53 failed." And I said, "It's all right, 54:55 Le." She went, "What do you mean?" And I 54:56 was like, "I can't read." Um, [snorts] 55:01 probably big to make. Yeah. Massive, 55:05 >> massive turning point for me. Just like 55:08 I needed help and I didn't know why I 55:10 was drinking or I was lost. 55:13 So, these are big turning points. Um, 55:15 and she went, "Come and meet." And this 55:17 is why I don't really go for certain 55:19 amounts of 12step sort of fellowships 55:22 and that because there's a there can be 55:24 power structure in there where 55:26 sponsorship and roles of like mentorship 55:29 they just to show you how to implement a 55:31 certain principle in your life for you 55:33 to take that you know to empower that 55:37 not to not a life coach you know and and 55:41 this 55:42 >> and I sort of like so Leanne saying come 55:45 meet this woman and and then I had an 55:47 era of of somebody else saying no no 55:49 just you've got fear you just need to do 55:51 it and that was around [snorts] 55:54 um learn direct so it was on computers 55:58 I'd never turn a computer on in my life 56:00 you know what I mean it's just a so I 56:02 went and met this lady and she said 56:04 Nikki Charles lovely lady 56:08 um she's mentioned in my my thesis uh 56:11 and she said have you ever been screened 56:13 and I went for drugs and she was like uh 56:16 know um for dyslexia and I was like I 56:19 don't even know what that is and she 56:21 went I Paul you've got learning 56:23 difficulty [snorts] know two ways about 56:24 it so she part screened me sat down with 56:28 me and uh 56:30 did support onetoone while I did my 56:33 English GCSE um which I passed 56:36 >> y wonderful 56:37 >> yeah and then she 56:39 she put me I did my maths as well and 56:41 then she put me for I started to do my A 56:43 levels access course so it's like three 56:45 A levels in 56:47 in a short space of time. I think it was 56:48 like nine months. Um and then she put me 56:50 in for some award which cuz she couldn't 56:53 believe how far I'd come in like a year 56:55 to reading beginnings of acade academic 56:58 journals or so and I won this Northwest 57:02 Learner which me and the boys went to 57:05 London to receive at the I know. Yeah. 57:08 >> You clearly had it in you and it just 57:10 hadn't been brought out. 57:11 >> Yeah. Portullus house and like me it was 57:13 it was fantastic. It was great. Um, 57:18 and then I don't know where I'm going, 57:20 but there was breakdowns in the 57:21 relationship still there. I need to 57:24 mention that because when I got sober, I 57:26 got this new lease of life and that that 57:30 dependency on Leanne started to 57:34 come towards myself, which then left her 57:37 in a state of like I'm not needed 57:39 anymore. So, there was fractions within 57:42 the relationship. And [snorts] to be 57:44 honest, the amount of dishonesty and the 57:46 lies and the um 57:50 carnage what I brought to that I broke a 57:52 lot of trust and and uh and that I I'll 57:55 mention that that that that never healed 58:00 that around that. Um 58:02 I don't think it was all I think as 58:04 people you grow. So we were together 27 58:07 years so and people change. 58:09 >> Yeah. And uh 58:10 >> you were going through a massive change 58:11 in your life as well. 58:13 >> Yeah. So I did my A levels still focused 58:16 on the psychology um to hopefully do a a 58:20 degree in psychology um which was my 58:25 GCSE was the hardest. The A levels were 58:27 hard. In the time of my A levels though 58:32 my granddad had passed, my dad had 58:33 passed. My brother-in-law became my dad, 58:37 >> right? M looked after me. Whenever I got 58:40 in trouble, he'd always be there. He was 58:42 an Andy lad. Um and I got [snorts] a 58:46 phone call of my sister 58:48 of my mom saying that Gary died and that 58:52 >> another big blow. 58:53 >> Yeah. At the same time when Nana was had 58:56 dementia. So at the beginning of the end 58:58 of my drinking, 59:01 she started to get dementia and I go and 59:02 see her in stepping and and this she 59:04 she'd say things like, "Please don't 59:06 leave me here, Paul. Please don't leave 59:07 me here. Please take me. And I couldn't 59:10 I could not handle that. So I'd run 59:12 straight from there across to the off 59:13 license and buy a drink. Couldn't cope 59:16 with that emotional. 59:18 >> The difference with Gary is [snorts] I'd 59:20 started to be able to regulate my 59:23 emotions. I started to navigate. That's 59:25 where I was really interested in these 59:27 these sort of principles within this 59:29 12step philosophy because they're very 59:31 good at navigating it in introspection 59:35 into emotion, understanding what these 59:37 emotions are, where they're stemming 59:39 from. Exact. Like I like the old stuff 59:42 where it's either rooted in um the the 59:46 basic sort of fear is like it's rooted 59:48 in something that I'm not going to get 59:49 or something that I'm going to lose. M 59:52 >> and there's a fear of that which keeps 59:54 the angst and um 59:57 and it was heartbreaking for Lisa. 59:59 Absolutely. And the kids um and I'll
Education, healing, and supporting his mother 1:00:02 never forget it. Uh especially Liv, not 1:00:05 demissing Jay, 1:00:08 minimizing Jay. It was just the way Liv 1:00:10 it broke me that. Um 1:00:13 so that was another another thing. Then 1:00:15 my nana had dementia, bless her, and she 1:00:18 passed away. So watching that, watching 1:00:21 someone mentally go and then physically 1:00:24 >> Yeah. 1:00:24 >> It's hard, isn't it? 1:00:25 >> Yeah. And there was a lot of So there 1:00:26 was a lot of deaths in the space of 1:00:30 um this time and then 1:00:32 um I started to do my undergrad. Um, and 1:00:36 Lyanna had just got this new job and 1:00:38 then she had this new lease of life and 1:00:40 she did what I did but our relationship 1:00:42 was broke 1:00:44 >> and she went working like 48 hour shifts 1:00:47 X Y Z and I started to 1:00:50 it was the first time that I'd ever 1:00:52 looked after my kids on my own for like 1:00:55 48 hours. [snorts] 1:00:56 Uh, and I mean like never done the 1:01:00 washing and was very good at all that 1:01:02 sort of stuff and I never did it. So 1:01:05 it was like a mini breakdown. Mom was my 1:01:08 mom started to have alcohol seizure at 1:01:10 that time and this was a really 1:01:11 significant aspect of it as well that I 1:01:14 got sober and my mom was my drinking 1:01:17 partner. She didn't she went downhill 1:01:19 and I couldn't save her. That plays out 1:01:22 in my pattern of [snorts] 1:01:25 couldn't save my dad. That's another um 1:01:27 probably why I'm in the role that I do. 1:01:29 Um 1:01:31 especially the area that I research. 1:01:34 [clears throat] 1:01:36 So mom was having fits every night like 1:01:39 seriously falling down the back of 1:01:42 stairs. Could have broken it. 1:01:44 >> Yeah. Um 1:01:46 I was in my final year of my undergrad 1:01:49 and I was looking after my kids for the 1:01:51 first time and the monot the monotonous 1:01:53 of that 1:01:55 getting up in the morning and getting 1:01:57 the breakfast ready for hurry up you 1:01:59 need we're going to be late for school X 1:02:01 Y and Z have you got your bag get 1:02:02 sandwiches don't jump on that grass I'm 1:02:05 not washing them pants tonight I've only 1:02:06 got two pairs for the week and we buy 1:02:08 like five shirts so you won't have to so 1:02:11 you just don't have to do it all the 1:02:12 time. [snorts] 1:02:14 Um, and at the end of it, I managed to 1:02:16 mom worked really poorly. They 1:02:18 misdiagnosis for a delirium. I took her 1:02:21 out of her home, put her in a home. Um, 1:02:25 finished my undergrad. 1:02:27 Um, got a I got a distinction in my I 1:02:30 got two I got a 21-1 in my um overall. I 1:02:33 got first in my dissertation, but I just 1:02:35 missed on a first on the 1:02:36 >> Well done. 1:02:37 >> Yeah. On the overall 66% or something. 1:02:40 Um, and I realized that I could look 1:02:43 after my kids on my own. 1:02:45 >> Two huge. 1:02:46 >> And at that time though, um, there was 1:02:49 something going on. And I won't go into 1:02:51 that cuz I don't want to, um, 1:02:52 [clears throat] 1:02:53 >> put anybody in a bad light, but, um, I I 1:02:56 was going to leave. Um, 1:03:00 and we tried to do it again. Um and the 1:03:04 sadness after that mom I went to the 1:03:08 nursing room one night and she was like 1:03:10 so some of the time she'd be like your 1:03:11 dad's been here. I said he is he all 1:03:14 right cuz he's and she's like yeah and 1:03:17 then PJ which was a a dog she's 1:03:20 [clears throat] here as well. The a week 1:03:22 after I went back one night she was like 1:03:25 [snorts] um you promised me you'd bring 1:03:27 the M facts last night. I was like what? 1:03:29 She'd remembered and I thought what's 1:03:31 going on it there was a shift. asked her 1:03:33 some more questions. I said, "Where has 1:03:35 my dad been?" She was like, "What are 1:03:36 you talking about? Your dad's dead." And 1:03:38 I was like, she was And I was like, 1:03:39 "What about the dog?" And she was said, 1:03:40 "Paul, you're freaking me out now. 1:03:42 What's going on?" I went and spoke to 1:03:43 the manager. She went, "Paul, she needs 1:03:45 a reassessment. She ain't got dementia." 1:03:47 So, I was like, "What? I've took her 1:03:50 stuff out of her house." 1:03:51 >> Oops. 1:03:53 >> The best thing about that was she needed 1:03:54 to She had steps up, steps down. She 1:03:58 can't bend any 1:04:00 >> She needed a level by the sounds of 1:04:01 things. 1:04:02 >> Yeah. But all the people who she was 1:04:03 drinking with five of them on there, 1:04:05 they were all doing it. So then 1:04:09 we got her diagnosed again. She come 1:04:11 out, we thought she was okay and we got 1:04:13 her a nice um sort of like 1:04:16 self-supporting flats area. Best thing 1:04:19 ever. Like they were putting nights on. 1:04:21 She It was like she was a teenager 1:04:22 again. She went, "Oh, I can't wait this 1:04:24 X Y and Zed on tonight." Um but the 1:04:27 brain went again. That's when we knew it 1:04:30 was the red diagnosis was cause cost and 1:04:32 it was alcohol dementia 1:04:34 >> and it was and the reason I say this is 1:04:35 because I implemented everything that my 1:04:38 skill set around social work assessment 1:04:40 and medication change her diet I took 1:04:43 over controlling me and my sister took 1:04:46 over the the health side so we try and 1:04:48 get her on nutrition 1:04:49 >> trying to monitor her drinking trying to 1:04:53 monitor her cigarette intake but the one 1:04:55 thing I couldn't have any power in was 1:04:58 what the alcoord done to the brain. 1:04:59 >> Yeah, of course. 1:05:01 >> And while this was all going on, you'd 1:05:03 graduated. 1:05:04 >> Yeah. 1:05:05 >> And carried on your educational journey. 1:05:07 >> Yeah. So then I got a scholarship for 1:05:11 doing my masters in psychology which I 1:05:14 [snorts] looked into um like narratives 1:05:17 of recovery. Um and I tailored it into 1:05:20 alcoholics because I had a lot of 1:05:22 connection. it was accessible. Um 1:05:26 >> cuz I was really interested in that self 1:05:27 dialogue and the stories we live by and 1:05:30 how we how our stories define who we are 1:05:34 and stuff like that. We can cuz and what 1:05:37 it was really important what came out 1:05:38 cuz it was like there's a service in 1:05:40 Stockport which we we sort of push 1:05:42 people towards is facilitated. It's a 1:05:45 reduction in motivation program in 1:05:46 Stockport run by it's on a penine care 1:05:49 and it's um run by ACOM really 1:05:52 subcontractors but there's a power in 1:05:55 the facilitator delivering which looks 1:05:58 at consequences to addiction looks at 1:06:00 patterns of behavior looks at all 1:06:02 different angles but there's a power in 1:06:05 the person delivering it we found in 1:06:09 that that they could break the narrative 1:06:12 which has been sustaining these people 1:06:14 and holding them in a space they could 1:06:16 break through that quite quickly 1:06:19 >> and not diminish not diminishing 1:06:21 anything away from practitioners and 1:06:23 >> of course not there's many different 1:06:25 modalities isn't there 1:06:26 >> yeah and [clears throat] um there was 1:06:27 just something significant in that um 1:06:29 and I was interested then how we then re 1:06:32 reauor ourselves through that shame and 1:06:36 stuff like that so 1:06:36 >> and you didn't stop with the masters 1:06:38 either did you 1:06:38 >> no no I got distinction in my masters 1:06:41 again 1:06:42 >> um 1:06:42 >> so then I went working for just the 1:06:44 wellspring 1:06:46 and I didn't know what it was. Um and 1:06:48 the wellspring is just it's a beacon on 1:06:51 its own. It really is. It was 1:06:53 purposebuilt. 1:06:55 It's a homeless resource center for um 1:06:58 and the strategy really focuses on at 1:07:00 risk of homelessness 1:07:02 um street homelessness entrenched rush 1:07:04 sleepers and that's the main essence but 1:07:07 it's a lot broader than that. Um so 1:07:10 anybody presents at that door um with 1:07:13 any aspect of trauma um we don't turn 1:07:16 away and we try and help in whatever way 1:07:19 we can. 1:07:20 >> How wonderful. 1:07:20 >> Um it's [snorts] based it's it's it's a 1:07:23 beautiful place. It's um it's governed 1:07:26 by a really good board of trustees which 1:07:28 covers lots of disciplines. So our chair 1:07:30 is a is a family lawyer. So we got 1:07:33 consulting uh managing consultants, 1:07:36 we've got architects, we've got 1:07:37 engineers, we've got people in the 1:07:39 church community, whatever that is. And 1:07:41 in then trickle down into Alex Knight 1:07:45 who's our manager, 1:07:48 she's just beyond her years. So when I 1:07:50 say about like this lived experience has 1:07:52 a powerful effect. There's only three 1:07:55 people 1:07:56 for Wishi um who have ever seen a level 1:08:00 of 1:08:02 care and love and empathy for human 1:08:04 beings and that was Alex Allison blew me 1:08:09 away 1:08:10 taught me so much 1:08:12 >> and I guess it's also part of your own 1:08:15 healing journey as well the work that 1:08:17 you're doing now. Yeah, I think my whole 1:08:19 my whole career is based on trying to
The Wellspring, PhD work, and helping others 1:08:21 help someone. Um, 1:08:23 >> that's wonderful. 1:08:24 >> Yeah. Trying to explore. So, the 1:08:25 wellspring in itself then Alex is a 1:08:27 social worker by trade. Dora's worked in 1:08:30 Dora Allison. She's worked in service. 1:08:32 She's worked with kids in deprived areas 1:08:34 on Gausy Bank who now she's working as 1:08:37 adults with their children who are still 1:08:39 stuck. 1:08:40 >> Mhm. you know, but her networking skills 1:08:43 in Stockport and probation, police, GPS, 1:08:47 mental health, um, social work, housing, 1:08:50 everything. Um, we have another Lisa 1:08:53 Cooken, social worker by trade, Moana, 1:08:56 Merch, Rose, nurse, come from MRI. 1:08:59 >> So, you've got lots of wonderful 1:09:01 specialties all there to help these 1:09:02 people. 1:09:03 >> Yeah. A very good skill set. Tula, 1:09:05 Paulie, Ben, both in recovery. Aaron run 1:09:08 children's homes. very good with the 1:09:10 young population, young males 1:09:13 um in my area obviously addiction and 1:09:16 stuff but 1:09:17 >> a lot of education going on I guess. 1:09:19 Yeah, we also have an an advanced 1:09:22 prescribing practitioner three days a 1:09:24 week, walking surgery, GP twice a week, 1:09:28 really access, which is quite sad cuz 1:09:30 [snorts] 1:09:30 >> there was an incident yesterday. So, we 1:09:33 were sto stood on a train bridge in 1:09:34 Stockport. Um, 1:09:37 so one of our one of our lads is 1:09:40 um 1:09:43 pure mental health. 1:09:45 what that diagnosis is needs to be 1:09:47 defined and categorized. But he turns up 1:09:50 and he'd been kicked out of hospital by 1:09:53 a certain doctor on the ground [snorts] 1:09:55 as a parent. I don't know if this is 1:09:57 true that he's assaulted one of our 1:09:58 staff. 1:10:00 Our nurses then ring and state that 1:10:04 that's not actually true. Tried to calm 1:10:07 him down. Rang 999 said he's going to 1:10:10 kill himself. Um 1:10:14 4:00 comes, police have still managed to 1:10:17 get hold of him. Um he was already under 1:10:19 a section, so he was come out and then 1:10:22 we get a phone call that he's on the 1:10:23 bridge. 1:10:25 So we finished at R4 and two of the 1:10:28 colleagues were already there. Um and 1:10:32 lucky enough he got down, but we then 1:10:34 leased with our nurses. This is all 1:10:36 outside of ours. manager was there um to 1:10:40 take him to MRI to because obviously 1:10:44 there was some issue with that treatment 1:10:45 in MLport. Um 1:10:48 >> so you're now supporting very acute 1:10:51 cases, emergency cases, long-term cases. 1:10:55 >> Yeah, massive that that environment is 1:10:58 is traumatic for staff. 1:11:00 >> Yeah, for sure. So, we've had so many 1:11:02 deaths, it's unreal. And you get you get 1:11:05 to know. So, the biggest one of the 1:11:07 biggest pluses about the Wellspring is 1:11:09 we have the most engagement because we 1:11:11 offer food, showers, clothing, health 1:11:14 care, 1:11:16 charges, benefit, support, whatever. 1:11:18 >> Yeah. 1:11:18 >> So, it's a very So, you get emotionally 1:11:21 >> attached. 1:11:22 >> Yeah. 1:11:23 >> And you've written a thesis for a 1:11:26 doctorate, I believe. Um well yeah while 1:11:28 I was working at the wellspring uh an 1:11:30 opportunity came up to um 1:11:34 to apply for a funded PhD and um I did 1:11:37 went through it and I managed to get it 1:11:40 and secure it and the wellspring didn't 1:11:41 want to lose me in that sense as well. 1:11:45 They uh they kept me on for like 10 1:11:47 hours a week um to hold hands with 1:11:50 people who were not engaging in services 1:11:52 or to really focus and target population 1:11:56 around 1:11:58 who needs to engage. It's like what like 1:12:00 people getting punished for engagement 1:12:03 when 1:12:04 the issue is they lack the capacity to 1:12:07 engage. So it's like that's 1:12:09 discrimination is it? You're having a go 1:12:10 at someone for not having the capability 1:12:12 of doing something. Um like when I first 1:12:14 day I think first week and a probation 1:12:17 rang me officer around me and went 1:12:18 where's X Y and Zed and I said well he's 1:12:21 just rocked up now. She well I'm going 1:12:22 to breach him because he's uh he's not 1:12:25 turned up again. I said he's just woke 1:12:27 up out the bush just behind the trees. 1:12:30 He ain't got a phone. He ain't got a 1:12:32 diary. He ain't got a reminder set. 1:12:36 You know you what you need to wake up 1:12:39 here. Um, 1:12:42 so I think the basis of that is we're 1:12:44 advocates, but we were a skill set of 1:12:46 advocates. And I've not used me title. 1:12:48 Well, I have used it once, but that was 1:12:50 cuz some social worker 1:12:52 >> was trying to 1:12:53 >> Yeah. 1:12:54 >> position herself above people without 1:12:56 understanding who them people were. 1:12:59 >> Well, 1:13:00 >> um, anyway, let's go on. I would like 1:13:02 [snorts] to finish this off to round 1:13:04 this up this incredible story that 1:13:07 you've told by saying 1:13:11 you in my mind are now an incredible 1:13:15 role model for all these people. You 1:13:18 have brought yourself from layers upon 1:13:22 layers of trauma all the way through 1:13:24 your early life through 1:13:27 a variety of substance abuses through 1:13:30 not getting any benefit from the 1:13:31 education system because of what's 1:13:32 happening to being somebody who is not 1:13:35 only now working in the field and 1:13:39 supporting others finding themselves 1:13:42 most likely at similar points with a 1:13:45 different story to the journey you've to 1:13:47 a man who is now educated to the highest 1:13:50 degree. 1:13:50 >> Congratulations, my love. 1:13:52 >> Oh, thanks 1:13:53 >> and thank you so much for 1:13:54 >> I'll send you I'll send you the papers. 1:13:56 They're in 1:13:56 >> Excellent. 1:13:57 >> Yeah, you'll like it. It's in relation 1:13:59 to identity, so it's around 1:14:00 >> that' be wonderful. 1:14:02 >> Self-perception, stuff like that. 1:14:03 >> Thank you so much and coming and 1:14:04 sharing. 1:14:05 >> You're welcome. Was that all right? 1:14:07 >> Yeah. Perfect.
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