Self-Sabotage in High Performers: The Pattern Nobody Sees

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inner voice a heartfelt chat with dr. fujon two minutes to portray a character and act this is which is what you love to do and whatever happens after that is bonus and if you can take that mentality and say i'm having fun i'm taking these two minutes to showcase what i can do and be able to separate from the outcome, like detach from the outcome. And the same thing with salespeople, because if the salesperson is trying too hard to make the sale, the buyer and a potential customer can see it through that and most likely will not buy.

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Today, I will be talking with Dr. Albert Bramante. He is a talent agent, a performance psychologist, and a mindset expert who has spent over 20 years helping high performers both in entertainment industry and beyond, conquer their mental roadblocks. So, with a PhD in psychology and certifications in hypnosis and NLP, he bridges the gap between talent, business, success, and the psychology of peak performance. He is also the author of Rise Above the Script, Confronting Self-Doubt and Mastering Self-Fabotage for Performing Artists.

Now, we had a great conversation. Again, a lot of what we talked about is not just for performance or actors. This is what we do all day. We perform all day in every realm of our lives. So many of the conversations could actually fit for you.

Introducing Dr. Albert Bramante 2:40

So you could connect with it. I personally did, because I do have some if I'm constantly lecturing in different universities or different conferences. And I'm on, you know, on television, on radio and podcasts. So this concept of performance is always there. And I know that there's always this gap of, you know, okay, see me, you know, I hope you like me. And then the other part is like, no, no, no, you know, I'm going to get somebody who doesn't like me. And you know, how does that reflect? And I think that we all go through this all day.

So get a great conversation about all of this. I'm sure that you'll enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast, my YouTube channel and connect with me through the website, foodonzane.com. Go get connected to the Fujon app. You can get it in Apple Store or if you have an Android in Google Play. You have a couple of days, a free trial. You'll be amazed. You have 31 areas of life that you could check out and really explore who you are and all of your talents and your strengths and your vulnerabilities and how to bridge all of your strengths into your vulnerabilities.

So connect with me with my social media platforms, share your thoughts with me. I'd love to hear from you. And, you know, if you like certain topics that we could talk about, or certain guests, so share with me all that you want. All right. Now, without further ado, is Dr. Albert Vermont. Listen up if you want to promote your personal growth and self-awareness. I found the Fujon app last month and I have been absolutely loving it. I personally have never learned guided meditation, but thanks to this app, I now have learned incredible tools for my own stress relief and emotional self-awareness.

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Order your copy on Amazon now. It's so nice to have you, Dr. Albert Bramante, to our show. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Fujian. I'm happy to be here. Welcome. You have written the book Rise Above the Script. And it's confronting self doubt and mastering self sabotage for performing artists, which I'm sure that even if our listeners are not performing artists, they can definitely use this concept for them. So obviously you have you know, doctorate in psychology, but also NLP, hypnosis, but you've chosen to go into the field of talent and really work with

How He Entered Psychology and Talent Work 6:00

them in a space where they can go beyond all of their fears and, you know, seeking approval and making sure because it's really, really hard when you're up there or you're trying to perform And you kind of see your own mirror in the clapping of others or in the way that they look at you or the way they're receiving your art. And at any moment, you could be losing yourself in the approval or in the feedback or what's coming at you. So I love to be able to also talk about that. And I know that the biggest part of your book is also about self-esteem and how to come back internally versus only look at the external part to give you the feedback of who you are.

Before we get there, I really love to know how come you got interested in this field? Well, this is by accident, totally by accident. It wasn't intentional. When I was growing up, especially since high school, I always knew I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. That was my one-track focus. It wasn't until maybe my sophomore year in high school where I declared I was going to be a major in psychology because I was reading a lot of good books at the time. One of my favorites in high school was How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

So I was very much an avid reader. And I just became very curious about the human mind. And I read a lot of books about the brain. But I did have a slight interest in the arts, like I was in a drama club in high school. I took some theater and acting classes as electives in college. And that was, it was never really my intention to do anything with this. You know, I just kind of threw it aside. You know, this is interesting, but I didn't really think anything of it. When I was finishing my master's degree, I wound up doing an internship at one of the talk shows in the late 90s or early 2000s, the Salad Gifts Raphael Show.

And I found myself doing an internship in the counseling crisis intervention side. And it was my first professional foray into show business. And it was a very interesting internship because it really taught me a lot about how entertainment works and all of that. But it really wasn't for me. That was not the environment I wanted to be in, television talk shows. You know, afterwards, I just kind of graduated to see my masters. That, unfortunately, was the same year of 9-11. And being that I'm New Jersey, New York, that was like, you know, really hit home for me.

And so I did a lot of volunteer work a little bit afterwards, because the people that I volunteered when I interned at Sally, my supervisor at the time was doing a ground unit. for a lot of volunteering and crisis intervention work. So we set up a charity, an organization called Operation Healing America, which was designed to provide crisis intervention counseling, advocacy services for rescue workers or families, those that were there, that were traumatized, as well as surviving family members of fallen EMS and firefighters.

I did a bit of that for a while. While I was doing this, a lot of the mobilization was with other filmmakers, actors, producers. And a couple of them said, you have a great face. Why don't you think about becoming an actor? And I did take some acting classes. And again, I was like, this is interesting. So one of them invited me to audition for a film. And I was like, this is fun. So let me try this out. So I did the actor thing for maybe two years. It wasn't for me. However, I liked being around actors and I identified more with creatives and producers and show business types than I did with mental health and academics.

You know, because I did the whole psychology conference and things. I went to a lot of professional conferences in psychology, the APA, and all of that, and I didn't really feel I belonged there. You know, I felt like it was a little too stuffy to lead us, and that's not who I am. So, but I really didn't want to be an actor either, but I liked being around actors, and I wanted to really find a way to support actors as much as I could. So, you know, I started, you know, starting some acting support groups.

This is back around 2003-ish. And then around 2004, I said, you know, I want to, you know, maybe I can represent actors. So 2004, I opened up my first agency. And then, you know, about a year later, I said, you know what, I'm halfway there between my math, you know, between getting my PhD. I always wanted a PhD. Let me go back. So I went back to school. And while I was doing this, I was also teaching bar time at a community college as an adjunct professor. And I still do that now. And as I was beginning to brainstorm topics for my dissertation, I was like, well, let me do it on actors, you know, my dissertation on actors.

And the one thing that I kept running up against was self-sabotage, self-doubt, and the actors would shoot themselves in the foot, being their own worst enemy. And so therefore, I really said, you know what, let me do my dissertation on why do actors engage in self-defeating behavior. And so that's where I did my PhD dissertation on. And I did a full-on study on actors and self-sabotage, which later on, several years later, is where Rise Above the Script came from. And that was a foundation for that.

And I felt like it was a great way to bridge both of my worlds, my love of actors, but also my love of psychology. So what is the result of your study? Why do actors self-sabotage like that? Well, one, it's a self-protective mechanism, and that's where a lot of people self-sabotage. The biggest finding that I found, because one of the frameworks I used was one of the models of personality called the Big Five, which is the five fundamental traits of a personality. And that refers to openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeable, and neuroticism.

The biggest factor out of all of that, I think the most significant finding that came out of my research study was those that score higher on neuroticism

Why Actors Self-Sabotage 12:40

at the same time had an inverse relationship with scoring low on conscientiousness. So you would hire neuroticism alone conscientiousness. And that was a fundamental reason. It's a lot of anxiety, a lot of self doubt. That's where I would attribute to the high neuroticism, which leads to leaving things behind, dropping the ball on things, which is a lower, which would explain the lower and conscientiousness. Yes. And one of the things that I've really seen, I've worked with a lot of actors as a psycho-veteran, but one of the things that I really, really have seen and I wanted to share to see what your thoughts are.

And if you, you know, experienced this type of a conversation, which is I want to be seen. I want to be seen. I want to be loved. I want to be adored. I want to be admired. But then I'm afraid that I will be harmed. I will be afraid to be judged. So these two are almost like an opposing complete energy that are constantly going at each other. So it's like, see me, see me. Oh, don't see me. Oh, don't see me. Love me and admire me. Oh, you don't love me. And this thing keeps going and back and forth and back and forth.

What are your thoughts about this? Well, I think the whole back and forth is powerful, you know, and I think that dichotomy is absolutely amazing because there is that I want to put myself out there, but every time an actor auditions, you know, they're pouring their heart and their soul and they're making themselves very vulnerable. And then most likely, and no matter how talented an actor is, the amount of no's they're going to get is much higher than the amount of yeses that they're going to get.

I think it's almost like for every 20 auditions, maybe you get one role. And that's like on a generous number. There's that. There's that fear rejection, I think, also. And that being judged, yes, because when you are like that, you're being judged and sometimes very superficially, you know, let's face it, it's, you could be, you know, an inch too tall or an inch too, you know, or an inch too short or have the wrong eye color or the wrong hair color. almost like a salesperson, which they're going to get a hell of a lot of no before they get a yes.

But with salespeople, when I've done a lot of work, you can still kind of shift it from, OK, this is a product. This is not, you know, so there's a me that I got to find the skills in how to create, you know, interesting concept about this product. But with actors and actresses at the performance, the person really thinks that this is about me. This isn't about a product out there. This is about me and my talent and all of that. And it becomes very, very personal. It really is and I think that's where we have to almost teach actors to think like that salesperson that because you know a lot of what I hear a lot of times like people either people leave the business or they say you know I really want to be an actor but I'm afraid of the rejection or I'm afraid of that and what I like to do is of course you know coming from a cognitive behavioral framework reframing.

So what if we reframed rejection as there's no such thing as rejection. You're not being rejected. You're just being told that you're not right for the role. And one of the books I read a long time ago, one of the quotes from this book, and I don't remember the author's name, but it was like, there's no such thing as rejection, only a simple reminder that your services are not needed today. And I think if actors start to maintain that, framework where like, okay, no just means not right now or not for this particular role on this particular project.

That's all it is. And I think that is so important because even let's say, even if someone is not in a performing art, but they're in a space where they're looking for a job and they're gonna go into an interview. And I think what you just said is so beautiful for anyone who's looking for a job, who's trying to go into an interview to see the same thing, which is how are they performing? How are they presenting themselves? And if they get a rejection, How it would be to look at it as my services are just not, you know, required right now in this bit for the job.

Yeah, well, I think that would take take away that personality factor in it. And it wouldn't be that they don't like me or they don't because a lot of times and I've had conversation with this what actors to like if they didn't get the role. you know you a lot of times actors would then jump from a leap from that to they don't like me i'm like well where did they tell you that you know and i think it's like you just jump from a to z and like that one wasn't that one extreme So I think a lot of times it's having those conversations and also I think what makes this profession difficult too with the auditioning is we really don't hear any feedback.

So, you know, it's almost like a rare exception where we're actually be told we didn't get the role. you know, an actor didn't get the role. It's usually nothing. The audition and nothing. The audition and nothing. And I think that's where at least what a salesperson, they're told no to their face or, you know, no thank you. So I think that makes it a bit easier on some aspects of it. It's that uncertainty.

Rejection, Approval, and Performance Anxiety 18:40

And then you add the added pressure. I'm sure you've seen this too with the actors you work with is how their families and maybe their friends that are not in the business. Every time they go like, well, let's take a look back home for Thanksgiving dinner or holiday dinner. You know, it's like, so what have I been in that I've seen you in or it's, you know, so tell me what you're working on. And. Well, nothing. And then very often it's like, well, you've been doing this for six months. You haven't gotten anything.

I think maybe it's time to get like a real job. Because most, and when I say go back home, I like, I, I'm near New York. So, and most, you know, the, the acting hubs are really New York and LA and maybe Atlanta now, but New York and LA are like the two capitals of like the acting world. And, Most of the New York actors, at least I know a lot of LA actors, are transplants, which means sometimes they're from other places in the Midwest or even in the Tri-State area, so they're going back home. And then, so they get a lot of that too.

They get a lot of pressure from their families and friends. I know their family and friends have great intentions of trying to protect and look out, but it still adds to that pressure too. Yes. And what is it that a person from your studies can do in order to keep coming back to being centered and really concentrating on the task versus concentrating on their personality? Because, you know, you could go get you know, debate in your own head that you're talking constantly going after your own personality versus, okay, there's a task here that I gotta get better and better and better and just that's what I need to do.

So what is it that you do and how do you share that in your book? And how do I get to just master the art of the task versus master being, you know, a jerk to myself? Yeah, well, I think the main thing is just, like, reconnect to your roots. Like, why did you become an actor? You know, what really, you know, most of it from what I've been talking to is like, oh, I really want to tell a story. I like getting lost in characters and playing characters. So let's get rooted into that, you know, back to that and maybe reconnect to that.

And so let's have conversations about why you want to become an actor in the first place. and stay connected to that. And also, let's also reframe how you look at auditions, because a lot of successful actors, the ones that are really working regularly, will often say that they don't approach auditions with anxiety. They approach auditions as opportunities to work. They look at it like the audition's a job. So meaning that you're coming in, you have those two minutes, to do what you love and then leave.

You've got two minutes to portray a character and act, which is what you love to do. And whatever happens after that is bonus. And if you can take that mentality and say, I'm having fun, I'm taking these two minutes to showcase what I can do. And be able to separate from the outcome, like detach from the outcome. And the same thing with salespeople, because if the salesperson is trying too hard to make the sale, the buyer and a potential customer can see through that and most likely will not buy.

It's a salesperson that has the mentality of, I'm going to say how better for the product is, and if the customer gets it, great. If not, I'm not the one with the problem that the customer needs. It may sound counterintuitive, but I think when you have that less stakes involved, the more successful you're going to be. I totally agree when we're not really attached. I think we're free to flow with the conversation versus when we're attached to a particular outcome, we're not reading the room. We're not being present.

So there's a lot of information. There's a lot of concepts about connection that can be missed at that point. So the person is seen as not being with me, just being somewhere. any type of performance, whether you're sales, whether you're an actor, whether you're an artist. You know, even if you are in management and you're trying to enroll your department, into any conversation when you're not, you're not present with what's happening. And you just kind of like, you know, stuck into your agenda.

You're not coming across as authentic. You're not coming across as being a human being who's present after this, you know, you're like a machine that just is like a robot, AI, which is just, you know, shooting off what it's supposed to do. And you're going to miss that connection. Yeah, and that's another thing too with a lot of young actors or novice actors make that mistake of is they're performing and because they're so concerned about what's my next line. Am I going to say this next line correctly?

And that they're not even listening to their scene partner. Because successful acting is also, yes, you have to be able to play the character well, but you also have to listen and you also have to react. So a lot of times, this is what I see a lot of the nervous actors, I can tell they're nervous right away because they're not authentic. in the scene because that's my biggest note because I go to a lot of showcases and I have to have to write notes on the performance side of things and usually the one I find myself writing over and over again is you need to listen to your scene partner because I can tell that you're automatically in your head worrying about what's your next line.

What are you going to say next that you're not paying attention to the person in front of you? Now, someone with a non-acting background may not pick up specifically on that, but they're going to sit there and say, I don't believe it, or this is phony. I'm not buying this performance, and therefore they're going to tune out. That's part of it is why we have to let go, you know, and just be organically within the body. So maybe even doing some like, you know, somatic exercises, getting in your body more and just being, you know, more into your emotions and...

into that more so that you're just going with the flow rather than focusing on so much about overthinking it.

Detaching from Outcomes in Auditions and Sales 25:40

Related to that, usually I often will tell actors, please get out of your head. Yeah, yesterday I was lecturing somewhere and part of what we're talking about, I really felt it because I have this whole like nine page script that I, you know, really worked on and on all of that. It was funny because I'm the one who worked on it, but I wasn't owning it like the paper owned it without me owning it structure of the sentence. And I was so important to say it this way because it needed to land this way.

But it was funny because it was all on the paper. And as I was talking, and what I noticed is whenever I'm not reading off the paper, and I'm actually sharing my stories of my background and whatever it was, and I would get into the room, people would look at me. And the minute I would go back, and because I thought what I had written was so profound in the way that I had the sentences, I would go back and look at that. And then people would start chatting. And then I would get their attention again.

And afterward, I kept looking at, well, what went well, what didn't go well. And at one point, it's like, OK, was this the right audience? And I'm like, audience is always the right audience. Was I speaking to the audience who were sitting in front of me? Or because I got caught into what I had written and it had to be said? Because my assumption was that that was supposed to be said to an audience. But the audience was sitting in front of me. This was a women's conference and we had, I think, 120 people in the audience that I was speaking to around the conversation of strain and empowerment of women.

And that really, really showed up when we're caught into, am I here present with you and can you know, if it's my information, it's my information. So it's regardless of how I wrote it, it has to be mine. And so every level, right, in the lecture, or you could see it in, you know, even like you're a professor, I'm a professor, even when the things that I'm saying in, you know, in the class, it's something of my own experience, or I take the book and bring it into me and then I'm presenting the book.

And that brings up a good point about presentations in general. This is where it's like being in a moment because even as a professor, I have an outline in front of me, but I cannot read from notes because A you know two things when we write when we write stuff down writing is different than speaking so yeah it could sound great on paper but it's not going to sound great if we read that out loud to somebody else it's not going to connect versus someone to read something. And two it again it takes away from things so like there are moments when i the earlier my teaching career i'd rely severely on powerpoint and i'd be like okay powerpoint slides are here and then i noticed that it was like that's by powerpoint you know nobody was You know, students weren't really, you know, catching it.

They were so glimpsed about, do I catch every, you know, all the things on the slide, you know, not listening to me? I was so concerned. Am I going to hit everything on the slide? So I just said, no, no PowerPoint. If you want my notes here, they're online. You can look at them on your own time. We're going to have a conversation. And I remember last year I was presenting at a conference, a hypnosis conference, and I had a six-page, you know, think of notes. And I was a little nervous. This was the first time I was presenting on this topic, and I was a little scared about doing that nervous, you could say, apprehensive.

So I wrote out this big presentation, six-page presentation. And I just, I put it on the desk, you know, on the table right next to me, face down. I said, okay, if I need it, it'll be there. And I just started talking. Before I knew what the hour was over, I didn't look at that paper once. And I did hit some of the points, I didn't hit them all, but I was like, no, it went organically. And that's the whole thing too. I think even with acting is like, let it go organically. You know, yes, you memorize a script and you, you know, obviously you want to pay respect to the author and say to your lines what comes out, but it's authentic.

It has to come out as authentic because that's what being an actor, a good actor is, is that you're taking the lines that somebody else wrote and make them your own. You know, so it really has to be believable that you said that. If you're nervous, it's gonna come out like that. If you're self-conscious, it's gonna come out. It's gonna impact your performance. So part of that is learning to trust yourself, trust your instincts, and then even be able to reframe the nerves because a lot of people ask, well, how do I get rid of stage fright?

You know, that's a lot of things we all experience. And I'm like, well, let's reframe stage fright, you know, for instance. And okay, so you get the butterflies in your stomach, the elevated heart rate, you know, the sweating a bit, maybe a little bit nauseous, or maybe, you know, queasiness. But this is the same types of bodily sensations you get when you're excited. So why not just tell yourself, I'm excited?

Presenting Authentically and Staying Present 31:20

to do this. I'm feeling these sensations becoming excited rather than, uh-oh, I'm nervous. No, you're excited. And that's because one of my classes I took when I was an undergrad was public speaking. And the first chapter in the book that I was reading at the time was saying that to get rid of stage fright is not realistic, to completely get rid of it. Learning to work with it is the key. And that is by reframing that to excitement and using it as a propel. Because when you can use that as excitement, the adrenaline sometimes can make you from a good speaker to an excellent speaker.

Because instead of letting it hold you back, you're letting it propel you to move forward. And as we go into the part of the presentation, back a little bit into who am I before I get on the stage? And then for all of our audiences that are non-actors, it's more like you're going to act all day anyway in every angle of your life. So it's like, listen to it from that. You're performing regardless. at work and so many places that you're going to be forming. So it's more like take on what we're saying from all of those angles.

But there's a dialogue that keeps happening inside of us as we're getting ready to hit the performance, let's say. There is a dialogue, there's a way we can sabotage ourselves, there's a way we can enhance and get ourselves ready. What are your suggestions about how do I get myself? Because you shared about, I need to trust myself. It was like, how can I trust myself? What are the processes that you use and it is in your book that you share with people and where do I get this confidence inside of me?

Where I can trust as I start the performance, whether I'm on a stage or I'm on a one-on-one meeting, let's say. How do I get myself centered, ready to go and then start with whatever it is that I'm Yeah, well, the first thing is to, well, there's a couple of tools. One of them is visualization even beforehand. Now, I'm a big believer in the power of visualization, and just to use your imagination, and there's been countless studies that will back this up, research studies have backed it up to power visualization, because the brain does not know the difference between fiction and reality.

So if we can visualize yourself when you go into that meeting or give that presentation of it, not just doing it, but going very, very well, number one. So visualization, I would say the first one. The second one is where we come across with, like, maybe unstripping whatever self-doubt you're having beforehand, and to know that, okay, you're trained for this. You went to school for this. You trained for this. You spent years doing this. And that's the first thing, too, is like, you got this, you know, and really you know referring that message and that we're only human and not being afraid of that failure so even if you go up there and you flub a line you know you go up there and you you get tongue-tied on the on the phrase what you're really doing there is you're just you're not drawing attention to it.

Because even an actor on stage, for instance, if they're performing a scene or a monologue, and they may flub a word or a line there, the ones that are really successful are just going to keep going. And the audience, unless they really read that play or that script in detail, they're not going to even know. So even if you're giving that speech and you say a word a lot, just keep going. One of the things that a lot of people, when they come to watch a speech or go to a meeting, I want to connect with people that are looking for authenticity.

And that means, okay, you're a human being. You're not a robot. We don't expect you to have everything right 100% of the time. Confidence and self-assurance is important, but also at the same time, being human. Absolutely. Get this book, Run Above the Script by Dr. Albert Bramante. This is confronting self-doubt and mastering self-sabotage for performing artists. And I would say for all of us. Yes. Because we're performing and consistently somewhere all day, whether you're with your child, you know, as a mother.

or you're at the PTA or you're at work or you're selling something or you're in a meeting where you're trying to sell something to your boss or you have a business and a small business or a large business and you're working, you know, with your customers and you're creating customer service. So no matter what, to know that we are performing and self doubt shows up all day.

Visualization, Confidence, and Final Takeaways 37:20

And yes, it shows up all day. And this concept of, see me, you know, don't see me. Don't see me is consistently there. And, you know, get this book so you can really go towards, it has a lot of your, and actually scientific you know the studies that you've done so it's a lot of it is kind of rooted from that and then it actually has a lot of practical skills yes and that's true i mean i wrote even though i wrote the book geared towards actors again it was there's so much there for everybody yes Yeah, I've taken a lot of the acting courses for non-actors because you can bring a lot of the things that people have to use in performance for so many, many other concepts.

What have we not said that you really want people to know in a minute or so? Well, what I will say this is that coming from my background again, even from an NLP standpoint, we have all the answers we need within us. So it's sometimes we just need, we get a little stray from tapping into that inner wisdom. And so that's what a good coach or a good therapist can help us do is tap the greatness that's already within us, because every one of us is great and has a potential for greatness. It's just that we have to believe it.

So believing in yourself is more than just a cliche. It's vital and important. Where can people find you? So you can go to my website at albertbramonti.com. You can also find me on socials. I'm on LinkedIn, you know, specifically. Connect with me. I'd love to have a conversation with you. It was so beautiful to have you on our show. Thank you so much for having me on here. Oh, absolutely. And for all of you who are out there, if you like this show, if there's something that you see that you could use or a friend can use, please share it with everyone else and then subscribe to the podcast and the YouTube channel.

So you can constantly get, you know, our shows as they come in and create an amazing life for yourself and everyone around you. And until next week. Thank you. Are you a psychotherapist looking to enhance your practice? The Awareness Integration Therapy developed by Dr. Fugensdeng is a comprehensive guide to the principle and techniques of this powerful therapeutic approach. Join the growing community who have elevated their practice and expanded their skills by embracing Awareness Integration Therapy and witnessing its life-changing impact.

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