Spoil Your Baby Ep 40 – Beyond Perfection: Getting “Good Enough” Sleep feat. Talia Shapero

Personal insomnia and postpartum sleep struggles 0:00

I had my son and, you know, as new parents do, we're waking up to be responsive to them, supporting their sleep needs. And over time, eventually as they do they're sleeping longer stretches. He was sleeping throughout the night, but I just couldn't anymore. I was just a mess. It was taking me forever to fall asleep. That was up for hours during the day. and it was really impacting my cognitive health, my physical health my emotional health. anxious, and my mood was so dysregulated. Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Spoil Your Baby podcast. My name is Greer Kirshenbaum, your host, And I am here today with Talia Shapiro. Hello, thanks for having me. So happy to have you. Let's start with getting to know you a little bit. Um, so you are an adult sleep coach, which... That is correct. Yeah, I don't know how many people know that there are adult Sleep Coaches and there's not too many of you, um, So it's great. I mean, our parents are thinking about sleep, worried about, sleep have a million questions about And so I'm so happy that you're here.

Why don't we start with how did you become an adult sleep coach? How did this happen for you? Yeah, so I actually got involved in the field of sleep coaching through my own journey of battling insomnia for years and years, which really spiraled out of control with the birth of my son. And I see this a lot with parents and I will disclose, can I disclose to everyone, Greer, that we are old dear friends. Oh yes, absolutely. And so I'm saying this because I was never a great sleeper. And Greer and I have had many sleepovers.

We traveled together. Oh, I know. I am always, was always the last person to fall asleep, the first person, to wake up and be really grumpy about it, right? You can attest to this. Mm-hmm, we traveled many, many countries together and there was not a lot of sleep for Tal. Yeah, exactly. So that was bubbling in the background. But fast forward, I had my son. And as new parents do, we're waking up to be responsive to them, supporting their sleep needs. you know, eventually as they do, they're sleeping longer stretches.

He was sleeping throughout the night, but I just couldn't anymore. And I was just a mess. You know? It was taking me forever to fall asleep. I'm up for hours during the and it was really impacting my cognitive health, my physical health my emotional health. So anxious and my mood was so dysregulated.

How insomnia led to sleep coaching 2:51

and I actually went to my doctor and therapist and and i was very lucky to have you know, practitioners who were switched on because I said, listen, I think I might have an anxiety disorder. And they said yeah, you what, maybe. But actually, i'd be curious to know if we treated your sleep issues, if that would actually clear up some of the anxiety issues and now that I know this, really important bidirectional relationship between mood and sleep. You know, and this was true for me. And so I was diagnosed I had, you know true insomnia and I know that term gets thrown around a lot, but I hadn't.

So I did a treatment called cognitive behavior therapy for insomniac and it was truly so transformational for really every aspect of my life. Like, I was feeling better, eating better. I'm a way more engaged partner and parent. That was something I just had a lot more resilience, patience, love to give to my family that I felt like I missing out on. And yeah, and then I kind of, I was looking to transition from my last career and I noticed whenever I telling anyone about sleep, because I'm learning so much through my treatment, And I realized that one, nobody knows anything about sleeping, like it is such a And people just don't know the facts.

They don t know, you know how it all works. And two, whenever I'm speaking to people, everyone either couldn't sleep themselves, or they had an issue sleeping. So I did the certification in adult sleep coaching. But you're right, there's not a lot of us out there. A lot people don s know that this service exists. Here I am today, and it's been really wonderful. Yeah, I love that. I learned that so long ago in science that improving sleep is the first step to improving anxiety and depression and so many mental health struggles.

And I remember reading those papers, like that was the only intervention for people, was they improve their sleep and all of their struggles, you know, subsided or were, treated. So it's so great that you had that evidence-based support from your doctors. And we always ask people to just don't leave your doctor's office without information that makes sense to you and that is really addressing the needs that you're expressing. Because if it's not, then go to another doctor. You know, not everyone knows this either, right?

No, it's true. And you know it is interesting because doctors, obviously they're wonderful, we need them, but they only get about an hour or two of sleep education in med school. So they are not well informed. Then on top of that, there are so many other things that they need to look after in a very short period of time. I see over and over that yeah, doctors are just prescribing medication or diagnosing, you know, something that may not be the root cause. Maybe it is, but we don't know. That's important to know going to your doctor.

Like, their tools are medicine and surgery. So, that's okay. Sometimes you need medicine in surgery, like I have a lot of medicine surgery in my life and my family. There's no problem with that. But for a lots of things, especially bodily processes like sleep, where we know there's a holistic approach to it. There's multi-factors. there is no protocol for a doctor to be sitting down with you and going through these things. Like, that's just not their job. We can't expect them to do everything, right?

And it's the same for infant sleep. They don't get any training in infant-sleep unless it is extra. And, you know, I say, don' usually get sleep advice from your doctor in that realm, too. Yeah. So this is great. Thank you for sharing your story. It's so helpful. Let's start with the places we can help parents sleep. So a lot of parents listening, they have a baby, you know, somewhere in that zero to three range, or maybe they're pregnant, right? Which is another, that's actually a different category, we help people differently when they are pregnant.

Sleep, mood, and the limits of medical advice 7:10

We help them differently, when the have baby zero or three. and we help them differently when their baby and our children are sleeping through the night. Right? It's different life circumstances, so we helped them definitely, right? Yeah, there's, you know, I would say there are many things we know to be true, but I think in that season of life, having a new baby, the reality is that we're not necessarily going to get on a consistent basis Seven to nine hours of sleep on a regular basis. Okay, that that is, you know, optimal sleep conditions That's what we're aiming for.

However, we know this is not always the case And so what? We really want to be doing though is working on ways to protect the quality of the sleep and that's something in general that I always talk to people about I say sure we want To make sure that we are getting enough hours to sleep but making sure the the Quality is good is just as important and so I think what we want to be doing is trying to maintain consistent bedtimes and wake times, keeping them within about an hour of each other. And I always tell people, if you want focus on one, actually focus anchoring that wake time.

I know it can be difficult during this time, because you've been up for hours in the night, you want to sleep in. And for some people, that's fine. This is where there's a really nuanced and personalized approach to dealing with sleep issues. But if you're having trouble sleeping at night. If you are having troubles feeling well rested, You may actually want keep that wake time anchored. Because consistency and timing is a really important new measure of sleep health, okay? Our body doesn't benefit from these yo-yo different schedules.

Now that said, I get that people are tired, right? I was tired. I know that. And so I think building in rest periods during the day, and I'm not talking about napping, get so triggered when people used to say to me, oh, just sleep when the baby sleeps. And I'm like, are you out of your mind? I am not a napper. Some of us are not all nappers. True. I was running a business at the time, and there's a million other things you want to do. Are we cleaning bottles? Are be tidying, doing laundry? There's so many different things that we're doing.

If you can nap, sure. Take a nap. Maybe keep them 20 to 30 minutes. Have them before 2 or 3 PM so it doesn't interfere with sleep. But just taking, and I call them daily pauses, go and switch off from your devices all the distractions. Go and starfish out on your floor or in your bed. even if it's only for a few minutes, because what that is doing, it is helping you to refresh and restore your body and mind. Okay, we're not meant to be go, go go all the time. And I think that there is an added level of exhaustion of mental load when we are caring for young babies, right?

It's really stressful. you know, lying down for a minute and giving yourself truly, you now, away from distractions can be restorative. And something else that I would recommend across the board, doesn't matter where you are in your life or, how old you, manage your light exposure, all right? When we are not getting enough bright light during the day, it can make us feel sluggish and sleepy. and when we're getting too much bright in the evening hours or in middle of the night, It can kind of trick our bodies into thinking, We're awake and this can make it difficult to fall asleep or stay asleep.

So pie in the sky goal. I say, you know, as soon as you get up or even within a couple hours of waking, go outside 15 to 30 minutes, take off your sunglasses because sunglasses are actually blocking some of that. important light spectrum that we want. It's going to help, you know, calibrate that circadian rhythm that is controlling your sleep-wake cycle and getting outside another time in the day, like lunchtime, just any time, none of us get outside as much as we should. And then in evening hours, trying to limit that bright light, okay?

And so that doesn't mean exist in darkness, but kind of think like when the sun's put on dimmers or candles, but be careful with candles for little ones.

Sleep strategies for new parents 11:23

Lamps. It's going to help signal that transition tonight. And it's funny because I know, Greer, you probably talked to parents about supporting infant sleep. That is a key thing, right? When they're awake, bright light. Like, they don't even have their circadian rhythm developed, what, until like four or five months, or it's ongoing. And so that's actually supporting their sleep as well and their alertness levels. Yeah. The last thing I would say is, You know, try and kind of find ways for your body and mind to relax, especially in those minutes and hours before bed.

Okay. So creating a really purposeful wind down routine is going to be so helpful. It separates your busy day to day activities and sleep. And so if you're doing something, you know what I think we want to You want to do a consistent set of activities that are relaxing, not particularly stimulating, but not totally boring either, otherwise you are not going to be motivated to it. And it's something that you enjoy. Yeah, like reading, coloring, listening to music, doing some kind of craft. Yeah, watching a rerun of your favorite show.

It's going to look different for everyone, but that is sending really important signals to your brain and body that you're safe, you can relax, right? And we need to feel safe and relaxed to fall asleep from a physiological sense, your babies need that as well. And we're going to anticipate sleep. And it's funny because I always talk to new parents and I say, hey, do you have a wind down routine for your babies? And right, a hundred percent of them, oh yeah, you know, I do songs, stories, right?

We are no different. We need, we need the same. I love it. I want to go back and ask you questions about all of these. They're so great, um, for parents. The consistent wake up, I usually will tell parents, let your baby be the alarm. And so I feel like a default mode because, right, they don't know every night's different. they, don' know. and I don''t like waking babies up at a specific time every morning. No, no, not for babies. But I do like the nuance there. That's like, you know, if that's working for you, go for it.

But if you are having trouble sleeping at night, that is a different story. Exactly, exactly. Do you agree with that? Yeah, no, I totally agree that. And some people are more resilient to shifting their sleep schedules around than others. Yeah. really important to consider and know and sometimes it's a little bit murky like we're not sure it kind of an odd time but I think you know you're really just you being mindful of if I am sleeping in more if i am taking a long nap in the day And if I've been doing this on a regular basis and now I notice that, you know, I'm having trouble falling asleep at night or staying asleep, yeah, then take notice.

But yeah. Everything's an experiment too, right? So try it, like if you are struggling, try and if it works, great. If not, go back to what you're doing and you test yourself what feels better in your body. Yeah, and it's funny because I do a lot of experimentation with my clients and I will say my piece of advice in terms of experiment is whatever you do, try it out for a period of about 10 to 14 days. And I know that that can be tricky because your baby may not be on the same schedule that you're trying out.

If we try things for a day or two and we're like, oh, well, I tried doing this, it didn't work. I try getting light first thing in the morning. No, no, our body needs time to adjust and you need time... ...to evaluate what's working and what not. Completely, completely. The lighting, tell everybody at every age is so important. You women just not let us forget it either. So, every time you listen to him. That is one thing that, yes, Superman, I support you talking about light. And I remember, Grid, that was something that really impactful for you when we were chatting about your sleep a few years ago.

Completely. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Um, that's great. And then the rest is so important. I've heard that from so many different types of professionals, too. If you can't, like, I do like napping for parents. They do say, in the earlier chunk of the day, before 2 p.m., if possible, a lot of moms will want to nap their baby's first nap because they're recovering from the night. And I love that. But you're absolutely right. I hear from clients all the time. Not possible, like never napped in my life, not on the menu.

And, um, I loved the idea of just getting horizontal. Just do it. Yeah. Cause rest yourself. Right. Do it like we're not designed to just be on all time and, and on means our brains are on or we are, you know, going down a rabbit hole of, social media or something completely connected completely. Yeah. And get off that social at those times. That's not rest. You can do your social. I'm not saying don't do it, but don t think it's rest Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And the bed, the wind down routine I also love, that was also a challenge for me to do.

It still is sometimes because, well, I guess I have my routine, but it's not what I think, what would ideally want it to look like. I would love it if it was more self-care and I like suggesting that to people to see if that works for them and if they can make it work because then you do get maybe another couple minutes of something nice that you're giving yourself some love, right? Like putting on your face cream and doing a nice face massage, you know, whatever it is. Part of your wind down routine can show yourself, some care and love too.

It's a like nice layer, I always like to like habit stack, like trying to get as many things in one task as possible. And I think, you're making a good point about Yeah, that it, it's got to be something that you want to do. You know, I think people are like, Oh, well, okay, gonna do one day routine, and I'm gonna meditate. And then I've gonna, you know right in my journal, And I would do this. and then they're like oh, but I hate it. It's like such a chore and it s not working. Yeah. No, as soon as we're applying effort to trying to get to sleep, It's gone, okay?

So it's got to, like, whatever you're doing, make it work for you. And if you feel that, you know what, this isn't working for me, don't do it, right? Like, there's... I think, again, yeah, just there is no quick fix or like one size fits all in terms of... Completely. Mine is still, totally honest, mine is watching a show and then going straight to passing out. But like that's a routine. I do the same thing every night. That's totally fine. And I know a lot of people, they're like, oh, I watch TV before bed.

Is that really bad? I shouldn't do that. And again, the answer is yes or no. It depends, right? Are you sleeping okay?

Managing insomnia and nighttime anxiety 18:38

What's the content of what you're watching? Would I recommend you watching the news right before bedtime? Maybe not, because there's not a lotta great stuff happening in the world. But yeah, if it's a show that you love, it is relaxing you. That's fine. That is totally fine, enjoy it. Yeah, so many people have those comfort shows, Friends, The Office, all those, Seinfeld. Oh, I'm a reality TV... Before bed, that's a little stimulating. Actually, no, you're right, You're, right. I watch it and then I have a timer that goes off at 10. No, your absolutely right and I go up and do my routine and read.

Yes, thats what I would like to do. But it's part of my extended night time routine. It's not the last, yeah. Love that. Yeah, no, I want to add some reading and get myself upstairs earlier. That's my goal. Amazing. So those are really good tips for parents who are supporting their babies overnight who still have little ones waking and and, and they can help. Let's give a few tips. For the parents like you, like we mentioned, you helped me once my son was sleeping through the night. I was awake for long periods in the middle of the nights.

And You know, we, I, you know followed a lot of the tips that we've already mentioned. Um, but I also we uncovered that I was still protecting my sleep. I would still go into bed very early because I needed to go to bed early when he was waking a while. And so we changed that. Uh, We changed a lotta things, But I feel like that was one of biggest, um, one the biggest. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Go to bed later. Yeah, I needed to go, because I also recommend that to parents of babies, almost as a necessity.

Like, you must be going, it's a prescription for me. I'm like, whatever time you're going to be, if you are not feeling, say this, If you feeling exhausted and depleted and sleep deprived, You got to make a change. If your feeling tired, every single parent on the planet is tired. So there's the difference between being tired and being you know, really at a loss. Yeah, but I will I'll say if you're supporting your baby overnight, eight or 9pm bedtime 10pm the latest Um, and it's a sacrifice, because you're probably not getting some of that wind down.

You're not probably getting that other time, but I try to get everyone to try that at least. Um... So I was still doing that, um, which was one of the many changes that we made. But yeah, for those parents who are still, let's say, you know, with a baby or without, their baby and child is sleeping, But they're awake with anxiety, they are awake maybe experiencing know, awake periods, I don't want to necessarily diagnose insomnia, but maybe feeling like they might have insomnia. What are options for them?

Like this goes into how you work with people, right? Yeah. Yeah, so first thing I want a night of poor sleep or a little bit of sleep, okay? Be kind to yourself, all right? Not sleeping breeds frustration, right, and the more you try and fight it, the most likely it's gonna fall apart. And I said that before and actually, you know, there's a lot more research coming out now that's focusing on mindfulness-based approaches to dealing with insomnia. I think, allowing you to like, Okay, I'm awake. but I don't need to be worried about this.

I'm still resting. And I think also trying to tell yourself that this is probably temporary and for the most part, you can handle these short-term sleep problems. So that said, we definitely wanna work on avoiding going down a rabbit hole of insomnia symptoms. Nobody wants to get stuck in that. There's a few different things that you could do. One is trying keep the bed reserved for sleep intimacy and relaxation, okay? And so that means that we don't want to worry about sleep or about other things in bed.

We don' want do any activating activities like, you know, work or online shopping or candy crush, whatever it is. Because what happens is that you start to break down that healthy association of linking our bed with a place of sleep. And then instead of sleeping in our better mind learns, oh, hey, my bed's actually a really good place to be awake and worry about not sleeping. And I think that if you are co-sleeping or you're still feeding your baby at some point at night or your waking up, just be mindful of what activities you were engaged in at that point.

Secondly, and this is really, really important, you really want to try and manage stress levels on a day-to-day basis, okay, to help maintain a healthy sleep at night. And this a tall order, all right? There's a lot of stressful things going on in your world. I mean, it's important for every single part of parenting. Every part. Like, your whole life is better if you can do this. Totally. And I appreciate, I know having a baby can be totally anxiety inducing at times, right? There's so many unknowns and potential things to worry about, especially if it's your first.

But what happens is if we do not take time during the day to maybe process these emotions, what can happen is that they will build up and they'll creep into your nights, okay? And keep you awake. there's a lot of different approaches that we can do to manage stress levels during the day. One that I always recommend to clients, and again, not for everybody, some people respond to it differently, but a couple different journaling activities. Even if it's brain dump or to-do list or there is a more structured approach called constructive worry time.

And so what you do- That's a good one for mothers. We share that. Oh, that is something. That is a Good one. For mothers, it is, if you are a type A, like want a solution oriented, this is me, high strung. Like this, is for you. You can look it up, constructive, worry, time, but the idea behind, um, If you make it a practice to kind of dump your thoughts out at a certain time of day, What happens is, it's almost like a brain retraining exercise. Your brain comes to learn, oh, you know, after dinner, this is where I do all my thinking.

And now in the middle of the night, my brain is in a more conducive space for sleep. It kind of has learned, I don't really need to think about that now. So I think that's really useful, absolutely like talking to a friend, talking a counselor, if that is an option. I know that it is not an options for everybody. You know, don't take that burden of parenthood on yourself. And in terms of kind of calming your body down from a nervous system perspective, deep diaphragmatic breath work, like belly breathing can be really, really helpful.

I'm gonna give credit to Greer who taught me how to breathe properly and it really is a practice. It's not just like, as I went to yoga classes, I did all these things and I was like Oh, yeah. I know how to deep breathe. No, I didn't know. Okay. And Greer really helped me through this, but what it does, it activates, you know, that rest and digest part of your nervous system and it helps switch off that fight or flight mode, which so many of us are in when we're parents, right? It's amazing that we can be 20, 30 or 40 or maybe 50 or 60 years old to learn how breathe for the first time.

To like breathe in that way for first. And that's okay, right? That's OK. Yeah, I still catch myself. Like, if I'm in a stress mode, like, oh, wait, like really increase my oxygen load. So that, and I think, you know, mindfulness, meditation, guided imagery, these are all methods that can help, calm down your nervous system and integrate breath work. But I will say this, if you are not well-versed in mindfulness or meditation do not bring it into the nighttime. All right, practice it during the daytime.

Talia's coaching approach and root-cause sleep work 26:38

Yeah, when stakes are low and it is a practice. so I, think yeah, maintaining stress during the day is really important. I think so many of us just race through our days and we don't really think about it. And then nighttime is truly the only time that is quiet. We're alone, we are vulnerable, right? A lot of feel more vulnerable in the dark. You really wanna nip that in butt and tackle things during day if you can. I love it. And it just checks off so many boxes. Like for, it's going to just help everything, right?

It helps everything. Which is so great. Okay. So then amazing. Let's say someone's like, okay, I tried everything that we talked about. Still not sleeping, still having lots of anxiety, Still questioning whether I'm having insomnia. Um, Tell us a little bit how you work with people because I know you're really changing, really, changing people's sleep and health and really their well-being, overall well being in just amazing ways. So I want everyone to know about that. Great. Okay. Well, first of all, I'm going to give everyone good news.

Your sleep is not fixed. You can change it. Sleep is a modifiable behavior, meaning you can that pregnant women, that new parents get, it's like, oh, you know, enjoy your sleep before because you'll never be able to sleep again. Like that is not true. It drives me crazy. I mean, I thought that was true for me. So if you find that you're not getting enough sleep, if not that good quality sleep or you just feel really fatigued and sleepy during the day, and this is on a more consistent basis, All right, so you can seek help.

So I do always say, do go and talk to your doctor, okay, because you want to rule out anything on the medical side. I think that is important to outline like whether it is a medical sleep disorder like sleep apnea or restless leg syndrome or uh something like maybe you have a nutrient deficiency like uh or or mineral like iron or b12 or maybe yeah that is interacting with with sleep right so medications can do that so Do that but at the same time because as we know right doctors are not experts in sleep Okay, so you can chat to someone like myself who does further digging and takes more of a holistic approach to what's going on and so so what I do is Help my clients understand really how their sleep patterns behaviors are Lifestyle choices and other conditions may be impacting their sleep and then I work with them to put together a plan to really get their sleeve on track for long term improvement and so I do this by conducting a really thorough holistic investigation.

into your issues by examining what I refer to as the five pillars of healthy sleep. So we're going to be looking at your sleep and wake schedules, examining your sleeping environment. Included in that is levels of light exposure that you're getting throughout the day and night. I ask questions about headspace, right? So that it's going encompass any of that anxiety or worry. issues that are happening. I examine physical activity levels and then nutrition and any other substances that you may be having, whether it's caffeine or alcohol or whatever it is.

And I'll screen for some medical, like glaring medical issues, that I might identify. Then what I do is I'm identifying imbalances in all those areas. i'm going to shine a light on some of those factors that may And then I offer evidence-based solutions. And what we do is start setting these really small targets over time that are going to help establish healthy sleep patterns. Essentially, what a big part of what I'm doing is breaking down any unhelpful sleep habits and building them back up with sleep-promoting ones.

What I want to say to people is, You really want to get down to the root cause of what is going on with your sleep, because that is gonna determine how successful and longstanding your solutions are gonna be. And it drives me crazy, you know, when I get targeted with like, sleepy girl mocktail, and here, buy this $10,000 cooling mattress. That's usually not the issue. Maybe there's a bit of placebo effect or maybe it's not working at all and you've wasted money. I truly believe that our own body's natural rhythms can kind of get in sync if we identify all of these other things and impediments that may be going on with with your sleep.

So, you know, it can take a little bit of time, but, um, be patient, that your sleeping, can improve it. And I really want to get that message across today. Yeah, I love it and I will say it, we worked together in a coaching relationship for several weeks and... I did stop that nighttime waking and it's been years. How many years has it been? Three years since then? Four years? Yeah. It's been a while, and my sleep's fine. I know when I don't get enough physical activity, though. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I'm like, you didn't walk today.

You didn' do your thing. But you know what? That's wonderful, because that is, And I am really glad that you brought that up, Because part of my job is also to educate my clients on how to be more mindful of those nuances that may be keeping them up at night and so when we go over everything, then they're aware and they are like, oh yeah, you know what, maybe it was this and maybe was that. And I actually think that that knowledge, even if you had a poor night's sleep, your like oh, that's okay.

I know how, like I fell off the wagon, I now how get back on, no problem. Right? And so that is, part of my job is really to give people the tools and the knowledge so that they're never going back to that dark place. Yeah, and even what you said today, which was like, don't lose it over and over like one rough night, because I feel like I was beating those nights. I'm like oh, I am awake. This sucks. Like, yeah, you don' want to be awake again. But I didn't know it was the exercise and I have been able to bring myself back.

So, Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, a last point that I want to make that sleep is not completely static. Okay, we go through periods in our lives where sleep may be disrupted, right? Maybe there's a stressor going on or whatever it is, like a work related deadline, I do this for a living. And I did not sleep perfectly every single night, but I to sleep good enough. I think that is the measure that you're going to be looking for. Do I generally feel, am I getting enough sleep? Do feel like I can get through my day and I have enough energy to do what I need to.

We don't want to aiming for perfection every night because perfectionism Yeah. Oh, my God. What an important expectation, right? Maybe I think maybe I was living under that expectation. I'm like, well, because I've been an amazing sleeper my whole life. Exactly. You are always an... Go unconscious for the whole night. Like, that is what I need to do. That is kind of my expectation but I feel like that's definitely not true for everybody. And that really releases us, not having that expectations.

It's like... maybe that's not necessarily what is the gold standard. Maybe that this good enough, like, you're getting enough. Right? And like averaged over the week. Like maybe you'll have a couple rougher nights, but, ya know, maybe your doing okay if that the case. Yeah, definitely. The subjective nature is important. I think that sleep trackers, while they definitely have their purpose, I that they can actually induce further anxiety in people.

Sleep expectations, myths, and where to find Talia 34:48

and end up making sleep worse. So just be careful with those sometimes. Yeah. And just like, we have the expectations that babies are gonna sleep through the night and our children are going to sleep to the right forever and never bug us and ever, you know, have anything. Like, maybe, I mean, everyone in this space, like humans don't always sleep all through night without any disturbances, right? Like... Yeah, yeah, no, we're not. We're actually, uh, were not meant like that. That's a real big myth out there that like a quote unquote, a good sleeper falls asleep immediately and never wakes up until their alarm go off.

Again, some people sleep more deeply than others, but actually we have these nighttime wakenings, these brief arousals, because as we're going through the different sleep cycles, we are always, you know, and we do this about four or five times a night, We're entering a REM sleep stage, And this is a lighter stage of sleep. And so it's natural we had these arouses. Again, some people are aware, Some people or not. Like you're like, no, I'm dead to the world when I sleep in. I wake up every... I know I am up, every single night.

But I've not up for hours, right? I just kind of tossing and turning, maybe a few minutes. Yeah, it is good enough. Getting good enough sleep, yeah. I love it. Amazing, Talia. Thank you so much for sharing this wonderful knowledge with us today. For people who want to know more about you, we'll put your links in, but want a mention where people can find you? Yeah, so you can check out my website, taliashapiro.com. Um, I'm also on Instagram, Facebook, at TaliashipiroSleep, and I am always posting, um, you know, little tips and info.

And I've got a newsletter on my website if you want to scroll down and sign up. If you are having issues with your sleep, okay, don't let it fester. You are welcome to book a call with me. I always offer 20-minute free, no-obligation call, and I can chat to you more about how I could help. TALIA I love that you offer that. Thank you so much, Tal. and, I'm guessing we will have you back. So, stay tuned, everyone. It's so great to be here. Thanks for having me, bye.