Talk that Heals: How Communications Sparks Real Health Change

Introductions and Jonathan Marksu2019 Background 0:00

Hey everybody, Dr. Rob Silverman here. I'm with luminary Mr. Jonathan Marks, a gentleman who's going to share some real insights on healthcare and healthcare marketing in the media genre. Let me give you a concise bio Mr Mark's has without question, extensive background and success. He's worked for the CDC, he's an MBA, He is an entrepreneur in health and medical education since 2001. He's the founder president of GoToHealth Media. He hosts a multimedia interview show with health experts called Go To Health, which is enjoying 14,000 downloads per day and has surpassed 3 million downloads.

I was fortunate enough to be on your podcast. Jonathan, how are you today? I'm wonderful, Rob. Thanks for having me. It's really good to. Be here. Happy you're here, what's, the driver? What puts you on the map? What put me on the map? Well, I'll first say that my mother wanted me to be a doctor and I never really fulfilled that. But but I had I have a previous to what I'm doing now, which is a 25 year experience. I. Had another 25-year history in working in multimedia companies, first in cable television, then in the yellow pages and then and high speed Internet.

And what I decided to do after I got out of all that and got of corporate life was to really focus those different media on healthcare and medicine because I really feel it was important to get the word out about evidence-based medicine. And that's been my mantra for the past 25 years is to help folks like yourself, other healthcare practitioners, non-profit organizations, healthcare companies get their word in multimedia. What is wrong with the health care system now? Oi. Oi is a great way to start.

That's too huge. I mean, one of the things that really concerns me is the move away from evidence. We're just seeing so many claims from the current administration that have no evidence basis behind them. The most recent thing that Bobby Kennedy was talking about was circumcision and and also I'm not all summer circumcision and Autism and it just crazy. There's just no evidence behind it what what really has been the gold standard in the United States and which has Been the Gold Standard worldwide is what's called evidence-based medicine and I am happy to talk more about that if you like, but it really is Making you know having medical practices that are based on evidence not rumor not Individual experiences, but really evidence from a large number of people and I'm happy to talk more about that if that's of interest Oh my goodness is that of interests because there was a chiropractor to seek out evidence-based it was an epiphany for me So let's define evidence-based.

Evidence-Based Medicine and Clinical Trials 2:56

Sure. Good, good, Good. So, let us talk about, I think the place where things start is what are called clinical trials, which is before something is approved as a procedure or as prescription or as a drug, it goes through clinical trials and there's a three-stage process for that. One, the first, which is stage A or the 1st stage, is really to find out whether something is safe. Is it harming people or is it helping people? And it's just done on a small number of people to show is that safe or harmful and what are the side effects.

Then it goes to, once it's proven to be safe, then it go through a second phase, which is trying it on a larger group of people to see what side effects there are. And again, are there any safety issues that are coming up? And then the third phase is really trying on on large group people so that you get a sense for, hey, you know, does this does this have differences based on gender, based, on race, base on ethnicity? Does this work in large populations? And it's after the drugs or procedures go through that kind of phases of trials, is it approved by the Food and Drug Administration to be administered to the public because it has been proven to safe?

Now, the new thing that's happening, and I'll just bring this up now, and AI is contributing tremendously to basically developing bases of evidence. What AI can do as we put information together from lots of different patients with lots different procedures is put together huge databases of what people are going through and experiencing and showing what results are. So we're not moving away from clinical trials, but AI is adding to this by showing evidence from large databases of people who are gone through different procedures and different drugs.

So evidence-based clinical trials to AI, which I do like in research. I utilize it. It's not so great for grammar, but it's fabulous for research What is a proper sample size in a clinical trial as a starting point for evidence based? Well, when we first start out just doing the first phase, it's usually done with 50 to 100 people. And when you get over 50 people, at least in statistics, what I learned in school, you can start making conclusions because your trial base is big enough. But when get into the second and third phases of trials, especially the third phase this will be done thousands of people Again, really of different ethnicities, different races, various genders, so that we can really show that what we're proposing here works for all people.

So where do you think alternative healthcare fits into that? I'm glad you asked that, because I've done a lot of research on this. Let's talk about alternative healthcare for a little bit. I really think of alternative health care as traditional medicine. It's medicine that's been traditional. It has been around for centuries. And there's a tremendous amount of health care that has done under traditional medicine or what's called alternative. Convention it's really alternative versus conventional medicine and conventional.

Medicine is Western based here in the United States But alternative has become very popular in The last 40 years Where you know many people were not really served well by the conventional medical establishment and Moved to alternatives so it could be acupuncture chiropractic You know herbs And one of the challenges is that clinical trials are usually done by pharmaceutical companies to get their medicine approved. And the only reason it's worth doing that is so that they can make money on the drug.

Well, the issue is, what money is there to be made on an herbal medicine? Or what is their practice or acupuncture? So while we don't have The typical clinical trials that are done in alternative medicine, we do have a history of hundreds of years of experience of what's worked, let's say in chiropractic or in acupuncture or herbal medicine. It's just that we don't have funded trials. Now, the CAM, which is the complementary and alternative medicine part of the US government, has done trials and has supported the development of alternative medicines.

But again, this has been government funded, not private funded. And I'm not sure what's happening with that funding these days in this administration. So is it fair to say that it may disturb you that the pharmaceutical companies do fund many studies? Do you feel that if I could play devil's advocate now that those outcomes are jaded because of who funds them? Because that's the number one complaint that we get. Yeah. You know, you could jaded to me. I trust the clinical trial process, even if it's funded by pharmaceutical companies.

Alternative Medicine, Peer Review, and Bias 8:54

And it's not about who's funding it. It's based on evidence. Now, there are lots of, I will say, studies that are done by pharmaceutical companies that don't meet the rigor of clinical trials. And you could say those are biased. Okay, the nice difference point. I love it. Yeah. And lastly, we'll tie this up with a nice typo and we move on. Do you feel that the evidence-based has to be published? And when I say published, peer-reviewed? Things have more credibility when they're peer reviewed. In other words, Peer Review is other experts who are taking a look at your study to see, is it meeting the Evidence-Based Criteria?

So the fact that there are other that are reviewing this and saying, yeah, this is, I'll say kosher, you know. It helps. But I will say also that, again, I've done a lot of training with the CDC and I have done many, many training webinars in healthcare. I heard that peer review is not perfect. There can be biases in peer reviews as well. So you just have to really take a look at the rigor of the evidence to see if it's really out there. I agree. I think everybody should look at it. They shouldn't look the title.

Look at the sample size, look what was done, analyze the conclusion. But if we don't do studies and we do not do science, we are lost. All this kerfuffle over autism. was based upon quote-unquote studies that were done by somebody in England that made these connections between autism and other health conditions. And it was found that, you know, upon review of these studies, that they were not scientifically done, the database was not clean, and it's been refuted now for like 20 years. And unfortunately, the rumors still abound.

But again, this whole process is not perfect, but we try to keep to that gold standard of evidence basis. Agreed. I mean, once somebody says something negative, it seems to have legs and a little bit of a stickiness. And that's unfortunate in our mantra. Yes. What I want to know is I'm going to turn a page, I'll revert back to you. OK. what did you do before you became a health care marketer? So I had like a 25-year career as I mentioned at the beginning in different media. So in cable television, in the Yellow Pages, and then I was the president of one of the first four high-speed internet access companies.

What you now know as a cable modem and high speed. I wasn't president at one the four first companies that did that. I was also the vice president of strategy for the pacific bell yellow pages so i was in yellow page is advertising and i had a previous career as i said in cable television and what that all taught me was basically the importance of multiple media and I applied that to adult learning. which is I've done a lot of study about how adults learn. Adult learning is a little bit different from kids.

We'll keep kids out of this for the moment. But it's fascinating how adult learn, we make the mistake and particularly in healthcare as practitioners. I'm not a healthcare practitioner, but I will say that we making mistake when we tell somebody something once and expect them to remember it and do it. or expect them to bring it into their lives. The fact is, and we know this even from marketing and sales, a lot of times before a buyer buys something, they typically have to have seven exposures. That's kind of proven.

They need seven exposure to something before they actually buy. Well, this is true in the way we intake health information and change our lives, if a doctor tells us something once, We don't just make the change. Why? Because we go back to our lives, and our life are busy and focused on what we're doing. But we need to hear the information more than once.

Adult Learning and Multi-Media Health Education 13:26

And what I learned in these studies is there's something called the VARC learning method, which is we learn in different ways. There are people who learn by listening. There are people who are learned by seeing and there are People who learn by what's called read write, which is this is me. I'm a very active note taker when I am learning something. Not just listening. Writing it down because writing it Down helps me retain. So what this taught me was what something that has become my mantra which is if you want somebody to learn something it's multiple media multiple times so you can't just say it once you have to say at many times and if he can say in different media Because of people's different learning styles it helps them learn better because some people learn by listening some People learn, by seeing some, people as i said before had learned, my writing Some people learned by doing so what we want to do is present information the same information multiple times in different media and that's what's so powerful and about video because people can listen to us.

People can watch us, but even better, you know, if you provide the script to what we're talking about, people could read it if they want to. And go ahead. No, no, I'm just commenting. It's outstanding. And doctors should really take solace in what you're saying, because lecturing around the world, people complain they're not listening to me. And you just saying yeah, you told them once. You need to tell them seven times. Even if they have an MIT PhD, they still human. They need it seven time. Multiple times, multiple media.

So when you explain it, it's not good enough just to show them it. You've got to have them lecture, you know, and you want to add a little noise to it, if you will, but maybe have the muscle touch it. Right. This has been shown again in studies when people are exposed for something for the first time. Your knowledge is way up here, because you've been in at whatever you're talking about for a long time. When you present your information the first time, their knowledge goes from, let's say, zero to up where you are, Because they're intelligent, they are listening, They're understanding.

You're doing a great job explaining. But what happens is they go back to their lives, and their life are busy, And their recollection of the information falls back down, not to zero, but let say to ten. okay and then when you tell them again they say oh i've heard this before this sounds familiar okay i'm going to remember this now and it goes up a little bit more on the third exposure they start putting ideas together they're saying oh my god dr rub said this and gosh you know what i went home and i did that exercise and I'm feeling better so now what else did he say and so what happens is with the more exposures the knowledge and the understanding and information and inclusion in their lives goes up.

So the doctor of today is a doctor that needs to utilize multiple medias And without question needs to be able to expound in a clear voice. Yes. And don't be afraid of repetition. Repetition is good. So, you know, a friend of mine said recently, he said the doctor of the future is the patient because they're going to seek out so many different venues in which to learn. that information, that input is coming from multimedia is like you said. So my question is, you've got go-to health media. And I was on your podcast, which is great.

Go-To Health. What are your goals and dreams for your current company? Because you know, You've had a fabulous career. No one's saying to slow down. I know you're not gonna slow it down, I'm not slowing down so watch out, don't look behind you I may be catching because I am still running late. But what are you goals in dreams? So I have my own show. It's having great success, as you outlined. We just hit three million downloads. And I'm soon to go on WNEWHD in New York, which will be reaching, I understand, 95 million cars and 16 million households.

What I want to do is not only spread the word for people in my own show, but I also want to bring on other shows with me so that I can help other providers, other nonprofit organizations, and other companies get the kind of media distribution that i'm enjoying now and will be enjoying in the future. And so I wanna bring other people along. I don't wanna be the only speaker. You know, I kinda wanna multiply this. So that's my dream is to really turn GoToHealth Media into a larger organization which can really be known for bringing evidence-based health professionals, non-profit organizations, companies, and getting them wide distribution through multiple media.

That's me dream. Outstanding, I love it. Let me jump in that boat with you. I hope it's a motorboat, but if not I'll pick up an oar and I will start canoeing, and promise. Good, good, that'd be great. My real question is, what does the future look for healthcare? And we talked about AI, But what is the look of healthcare, where do people go to find something or somebody that they trust? Because that's the biggest thing, let's just cut to the chase, who do I trust, What do I trust? Who's telling me the truth?

And who's full of poop? I would say, you know, I hate to say this, but social media has exacerbated the rumors in healthcare. It's just really, it's very sad. I think you need to make sure that you're looking at evidence.

GoToHealth Mediau2019s Growth and Mission 19:38

Your health practitioner, your health care provider. Now, who your healthcare provider is, is up to you. And what you can do is have a primary health provider, a doctor or an MD or a chiropractor, whatever. You can choose, but I it's good to have multiple different providers. So I see A doctor, I see a chiropractor, an acupuncturist. I have worked with herbalists before. It's really bringing that information together. Some people say, who do I trust? It is really up to me. you know, who do I trust?

And there's not one answer and there is not 1 health care provider that's going to do everything for you. I think it's really good to have a variety and really kind of knit together things that you trust. You know relationships you, trust and information you trusted. And really to see what's helping you? Is this helping? So you like that integrated model where options within the integration. Yes, I ran for six years, an integrative health network called Starfish Health Partners. I chose the name Star fish because in LoRa, a starfish with its five arms integrates information from different directions.

So I run that for about six-years in the Bay Area. It ended in 2008 with the downturn, but it was a great interconnection of healthcare providers, both doctors, acupuncturists, chiropractors, herbalists who work together with patients. I had a good time doing that. You and I are in agreement. I believe in the integrated approach. Kind of why I did my podcast, Proven Health Alternative. It is what it is. I am a chiropractor. We have about 25% of the guests are chio-practic. we have all different kinds of guests.

Now I'm going to hire you. My friend's a medical doctor and he's perturbed because their approval ranking has gone down from 71 to 40%. It's dropped over the last four years 31.4%. I'm not picking on them. I am asking you to resuscitate people's favorability with them. What do they need to do? What's the reason for the favor? And what ranking went down, just so I understand? So doctors used to be, medical doctors, used be rated at a 71.4% favor ability. Over the last four years, they've dropped down to about 40%. They've drop about 31%. Three in 10 people now view them unfavorably.

Obviously, that was COVID and the vaccine, but what would you do to reclaim their position and being favorable. Remember, I'm not a medical doctor, but all my friends are medical doctors. This is what I do. I think what we need to do is get information out. That's who I am. And what i'm helping people do and I three or four shows a week with various different health care providers who are giving information.

Trust, Integrative Care, and the Future of Healthcare 22:48

And what I really do, I think I'm a very good interviewer in people not only saying what they're saying, but why are they saying it? What's the evidence behind what their saying? you know, what data do we have to show this? So for example, I just did a show on why seniors should get vaccinated in the fall. And a doctor, it could have been more powerful. I said, doctor he's an emergent, he basically works in emergency rooms. and I say, Doctor, if somebody's not vaccinated and they get a respiratory virus, tell me what's it like?

Okay, so you don't want to get And he sees people on ventilators because they didn't get they. Didn't. Get a silly, stupid little vaccine. They're on. Ventilators and their families are coming in, seeing their their family member on ventilation. The family members get PTSD. I mean, this is just this. Is real world experience. You want to have you want. To have a debate against about, you know, getting vaccinated or not. This is what happens if you don't get vaccinated. If you're a senior citizen and you get RSV or you, get COVID or, you know, the flu and, and what he made a very important point.

The vaccines don t prevent you from getting the disease. but the vaccines are like a seat belt or a bike helmet. They don't keep you from getting in accidents, but if you do get in an accident, they merely minimize the damage. And so what a vaccine, you know, the biggest complaint I'm hearing about vaccines these days is, oh, I got the vaccine and then I get sick. The vaccine doesn't prevent you getting sick, what it does is prevent the really bad outcomes that you can have if don get vaccinated.

I think it's getting that kind of information out to people. And that's really what I, my love and my job is to really get information to out people so that they can make their own choices. Haven't lived through that period with you, of course. I agree. At the very least, there were things that were mis-messaged. And being a chiropractor where I have to explain every day what I do and how I differ myself from the competition really gathers me to think about the need to change how i speak and deliver evidence-based data, as you would say.

That said, again, what last message would you like to leave us with today? Thank you for asking that. In this time of I think increasing, ever increasing uncertainty about medicine itself and medical practice, stick with the evidence. There's just too much out there in social media, unfortunately from our administration, our presidential administration where evidence is really being Minimized and we're starting to have health care based on rumors Stick with the evidence look at the studies do some of your research Listen to your health-care provider your healthcare provider cares about your Health, that's their job Don't get caught up in what you're reading on social media.

Really stick with the evidence. And if somebody says something makes a claim, check it out. What does the evident say? There's plenty of evidence on the internet that you can find. Stick with that evidence and follow the recommendations of health providers you trust. and go to GoToHealth to get it like it is. Yes. You got it. And come to Proven Health Alternatives to Get It Like It Should Be. That'll be our little center point or center. Outstanding. Jonathan, this has been great. Thanks so much for taking some time to share with me and share it with my followers.

I greatly appreciate it Good. Rob, it's been a pleasure to be on the show. It was a pleasant to have you on my show, getting evidence based out. And thanks so much for allowing me to come on to talk to your audience today. We'll see you soon. Jonathan Marks, Rob Silverman, Proven Health Alternatives.